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RampageRhino

Standard and + shift are the same speed

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Instead of coming up with a made up distance value from in game objects that would end up producing values that ultimately are going to be off I instead measured the duration of the movement of the shift which is 5 seconds to the frame on both + and reg and then found a morph spot with no obstructions the way jason is facing as every time you morph to a morph spot it will place both jason and the camera looking in a set direction every time, this is the only real way to perform the exact same shift across games.

https://imgur.com/02WkeRK

This is the morph position on this variation of pinehurst, the variation with a single house where the phone is will cause you to crash into the fence

https://imgur.com/ZETGSON

This is what it will look like when you spawn, it is important that you do not move your mouse

https://imgur.com/ffQsor3 https://imgur.com/tSsKrpD This is j3 after his untouched shift showing the position he ends up in and the lowest angle of his knife

https://imgur.com/yJxicaC https://imgur.com/IFqGQac When compared to where j9 ends up and the lowest angle of his knife throw from that position we can see that they end up in the same place exactly

Note when trying this for yourself you will occasionally tap a tree stump to your left at the start, you must not count these shifts as bumps vary on how much they push you. Waiting for the camera to settle after morphing and shifting right as jason leans back the most during his idling animation is what I did to get the shift to pass the stump untouched however I'm not sure if this had an effect or if the angle of startup on a shift has slight variation, this should actually improve the accuracy of the test as it ensures all shifts come out close to their right most angle.

Now since we know that both + shift and regular shift have a movement duration of 5 seconds and that they end up in the same spot when starting from the same position we can conclude that they are going the same speed.

Here is the full gallery https://imgur.com/a/Y0CeU

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If this is true then that means +Shift only has a cooldown bonus over normal shift. I think +Shift used to be a lot faster but people complained about not being able to control it at that speed, so maybe they nerfed it and didn't tell anyone. They should knock down normal shift to be in the middle of +Shift and -Shift.

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@RampageRhino

@Alkavian did actual math on this. Looks like you're right though. I think that's close enough that we can call it the same.

Part 6: (+ shift)

Shift:  56.25m (~185ft) effective range / 33.75kph (~21mph) velocity / 6 second duration / 20 second recharge

Part 8: (normal shift)

Shift:  53.25m (~175ft) effective range / 32kph (~20mph) velocity / 6 second duration / 30 second recharge

Part 4: (-shift)

Shift:  30m (98.4ft) effective range / 21.6kph (13.4mph) velocity / 5 second duration / 40 second recharge

 

Part 5 gets interesting though. He also has normal shift, but his results are:

Shift:  40.5m (~133ft) effective range / 29.16kph (~18mph) velocity / 5 second duration / 40 second recharge

http://forum.f13game.com/topic/10596-the-playbook-techniques-and-strategies/?page=9

He did most, if not all, Jasons and went above and beyond creating this thread. It's definitely worth a read.

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Unfortunately his math is wrong, regardless of the fact that the distance values of everything is estimated from real world counterparts you can actually see he has taken the duration of 6 seconds into account with his math when jason only moves for 5 of those seconds

There is a couple pixel difference with my screens but I think that is caused by a tiny difference in the shift startup angle, it's certainly not a difference of 3 meters

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17 minutes ago, RampageRhino said:

His math is wrong, regardless of the fact that the distance values of everything is estimated from real world counterparts you can actually see he has taken the duration of 6 seconds into account with his math when jason only moves for 5 of those seconds

Wrong according to you. Provide examples with your posts. If it's 5 seconds and Alkavian says it's 6, then show us definitive proof that that it is exactly 5 seconds. His actual calculations look correct; it's the variables you are implying are wrong rather than the actual math part of it.

As for estimated distance, that is one of the only methods you can currently use to quantify things like this as far as I'm aware. I don't recall seeing a 'you must be this tall to ride' sign with a height chart on it in-game, so estimating is one of the only ways of quantification. 

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20 minutes ago, RampageRhino said:

Unfortunately his math is wrong, regardless of the fact that the distance values of everything is estimated from real world counterparts you can actually see he has taken the duration of 6 seconds into account with his math when jason only moves for 5 of those seconds

There is a couple pixel difference with my screens but I think that is caused by a tiny difference in the shift startup angle, it's certainly not a difference of 3 meters

I'm actually using a known unit of measure derived from starting Sense range which can be found in the the game assets without hacking them. Real world counter parts just back up the calculations for internal normalization for scale. The measured values for distance are going to be accurate to within a few percent (about 3.5%). The times are right to within 2/10th of a second.

The ranges and times are not one off tests, but done several times. Unfortunately, it is not as simple as placing a ruler down and measuring distance. There is margin for error and I acknowledge that. The math is correct within those margin of error tolerances. It will never be exactly precise without knowing the values the programmers used so it is more of an exercise in giving useful information that might not otherwise be available to the player.

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@ShiftySamurai I try not to tag you so as to not be annoying, but I believe this deserves attention.

I would prefer all levels of shift have a uniform distribution across all Jasons. My personal take on the matter:

  • +Shift = 184ft effective range / 33.75kph (~21mph) velocity / 6 second duration / 20 second recharge
  • Normal Shift = 142ft effective range / 27.675kph (~17.2mph) velocity / 6 second duration / 30 second recharge
  • -Shift = 100ft effective range / 21.6kph (13.4mph) velocity / 6 second duration / 40 second recharge

The speed and range of normal shift should be exactly in the middle of weak and strong shift. I think all levels of shift should have the same duration though.

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I always thought that +shift jasons had a longer shift with a shorter shift cooldown, not much of a speed difference. 

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1 hour ago, Kodiak said:

Wrong according to you. Provide examples with your posts. If it's 5 seconds and Alkavian says it's 6, then show us definitive proof that that it is exactly 5 seconds. His actual calculations look correct; it's the variables you are implying are wrong rather than the actual math part of it.

As for estimated distance, that is one of the only methods you can currently use to quantify things like this as far as I'm aware. I don't recall seeing a 'you must be this tall to ride' sign with a height chart on it in-game, so estimating is one of the only ways of quantification. 

The distance values are still wrong as shown by my screens, I have no idea how to post a frame by frame video, I only know how to throw it into my video editor and go frame by frame so I could record that with shadow play and throw it up so bear with me

Edit: @Kodiak

Here is me showing the shift duration of movement, I forgot to mention that the shift ability diamond does not start to drain until he starts to move either

1 hour ago, Alkavian said:

I'm actually using a known unit of measure derived from starting Sense range which can be found in the the game assets without hacking them. Real world counter parts just back up the calculations for internal normalization for scale. The measured values for distance are going to be accurate to within a few percent (about 3.5%). The times are right to within 2/10th of a second.

The ranges and times are not one off tests, but done several times. Unfortunately, it is not as simple as placing a ruler down and measuring distance. There is margin for error and I acknowledge that. The math is correct within those margin of error tolerances. It will never be exactly precise without knowing the values the programmers used so it is more of an exercise in giving useful information that might not otherwise be available to the player.

That seems like a lot of effort to end up with misinformation

Edited by RampageRhino
Video added

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25 minutes ago, RampageRhino said:

The distance values are still wrong as shown by my screens, I have no idea how to post a frame by frame video, I only know how to throw it into my video editor and go frame by frame so I could record that with shadow play and throw it up so bear with me

Edit: @Kodiak

Here is me showing the shift duration of movement, I forgot to mention that the shift ability diamond does not start to drain until he starts to move either

That seems like a lot of effort to end up with misinformation

It's within the margin of error. They certainly could move at the same rate. Understand that it is an approximation based on measuring scale inside a video game. The difference of values you are worrying about comes out to four steps taken by Jason at a slow walk or the value change in rate of less than 2kph. If you want to call it the same speed there is no practical way of disproving your assertion: it could be true. Calling generalized values, with an admitted margin of error, misinformation is rather amusing. I'm simply showing people approximations of performance that would not be otherwise quantifiable. If you want the absolute values for each function, you'll have to get busy hacking the game code. I wouldn't advise that.?

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40 minutes ago, RampageRhino said:

The distance values are still wrong as shown by my screens, I have no idea how to post a frame by frame video, I only know how to throw it into my video editor and go frame by frame so I could record that with shadow play and throw it up so bear with me

Edit: @Kodiak

That seems like a lot of effort to end up with misinformation

Internet rule 33: when in doubt, double down

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5 minutes ago, Alkavian said:

It's within the margin of error. They certainly could move at the same rate. Understand that it is an approximation based on measuring scale inside a video game. The difference of values you are worrying about comes out to four steps taken by Jason at a slow walk or the value change in rate of less than 2kph. If you want to call it the same speed there is no practical way of disproving your assertion: it could be true. Calling generalized values, with an admitted margin of error, misinformation is rather amusing. I'm simply showing people approximations of performance that would not be otherwise quantifiable. If you want the absolute values for each function, you'll have to get busy hacking the game code. I wouldn't advise that.?

The misinformation is telling people that + goes 3 meters further than regular or that the duration is 6 seconds, both of which I have proven to be false. I know that the generalisation values themselves don't matter as long as they show the difference in relation to the other values as this is how stamina was calculated, but none of that matters when the values you feed into the equation are wrong

@Thatguyinktown I don't know what you are trying to say as that video clearly shows the duration is 5 seconds, if you refuse to watch it then I cannot help you, counting really isn't too difficult

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Just now, RampageRhino said:

The misinformation is telling people that + goes 3 meters further than regular or that the duration is 6 seconds, both of which I have proven to be false. I know that the generalisation values themselves don't matter as long as they show the difference in relation to the other values as this is how stamina was calculated, but none of that matters when the values you feed into the equation are wrong 

Misinformation would be me asserting these values are absolutely correct. On the contrary I let people know they are quantities that carry a margin of error. You seem to be concerned with being correct, I am not. I've given people data they would have to speculate at otherwise to allow them to see some of what is normally hidden to the player. This helps them make informed gameplay decisions.

If they come out to the same speed that is fine. You're literally griping about the distance someone could spit real world (seriously?). If your OCD is triggered because my calculations don't definitively name the exact location your spit landed...oh well. Carry on with your bad self. ?

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16 minutes ago, Alkavian said:

Misinformation would be me asserting these values are absolutely correct. On the contrary I let people know they are quantities that carry a margin of error. You seem to be concerned with being correct, I am not. I've given people data they would have to speculate at otherwise to allow them to see some of what is normally hidden to the player. This helps them make informed gameplay decisions.

If they come out to the same speed that is fine. You're literally griping about the distance someone could spit real world (seriously?). If your OCD is triggered because my calculations don't definitively name the exact location your spit landed...oh well. Carry on with your bad self. ?

The distance of the pace being slightly wrong makes sense, that generalisation is fine as if both calculations for something used the mildly incorrect distance due to estimation they would still come out with the same difference value which is the important thing (x is z% faster than y) but that is not what im talking about, I'm talking about you giving + a longer distance than regular when tested multiple times so don't chalk that up the the pace distance being estimated as you should have walked the same number of paces for both +/reg, that's a cop out so no the spit distance was not caused by the generalisation of the pace distance but was instead caused by human error despite multiple tests. The duration being false didn't affect the speed value difference in relation to each other they just bumped both speeds down equally which should be taken into account from now on.

The reason I made this thread was disprove said human error as all I hear in discussions is how +shift is 5% faster, there is no shame in admitting making a mistake, a simple huh I counted wrong would have been nice

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2 minutes ago, RampageRhino said:

The distance of the pace being slightly wrong makes sense, that generalisation is fine as if both calculations for something used the mildly incorrect distance due to estimation they would still come out with the same difference value which is the important thing (x is z% faster than y) but that is not what im talking about, I'm talking about you giving + a longer distance than regular when tested multiple times so don't chalk that up the the pace distance being estimated as you should have walked the same number of paces for both +/reg, that's a cop out so no the spit distance was not caused by the generalisation of the pace distance but was instead caused by human error despite multiple tests. The duration being false didn't affect the speed value difference in relation to each other they just bumped both speeds down equally which should be taken into account from now on.

The reason I made this thread was disprove said human error as all I hear in discussions is how +shift is 5% faster, there is no shame in admitting making a mistake, a simple huh I counted wrong would have been nice

I think the error lays with the timing. I measure time from activation to resolution of Shift. That way it is internally consistent to how I do it with all Jason's. The duration frames you've shown to be consistent, however startup response in game is not. -Shift activates and responds to completion in 5 seconds (+ or - 2/10ths of a second). Neutral and positive Shift takes 6 (+ or - 2/10ths of a second) from activating the ability to resolution despite shift frame duration being equal. This discrepancy is what is likely affecting the calculation.

No problem admitting a mistake. It is in how I use absolute time to resolution for the Shift action, not frame timing, in-game. Thanks for the feedback.

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What the fuck did I start... 

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Just now, Truth said:

What the fuck did I start... 

Lol. A healthy debate I suppose. I'm not claiming to be perfect. I'm certainly not opposed to criticism.?

 

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13 minutes ago, Alkavian said:

Lol. A healthy debate I suppose. I'm not claiming to be perfect. I'm certainly not opposed to criticism.?

This is all so beyond me that I can't really comment on it. I believe that you did this to the best of your ability, and certainly never intended to misinform anyone. You specified your margin of error and that seems pretty tight to me. I don't think the 1 second (or likely less) is enough of a difference to claim you're wrong, and I'd definitely take your word over anyone else on the matter.

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Just now, Truth said:

This is all so beyond me that I can't really comment on it. I believe that you did this to the best of your ability, and certainly never intended to misinform anyone. You specified your margin of error and that seems pretty tight to me. I don't think the 1 second (or likely less) is enough of a difference to claim you're wrong, and I'd definitely take your word over anyone else on the matter.

Rhino is correct in that I could be wrong. I accept that and I hope you all do as well. I can only do the best I can with in the constraints of what I have to work with.

In pace count I allow a margin of error of 1 Jason slow walk step per 30 meters traveled (or 0.75m). The start up and stopping of Jason moving often results in a "shuffle step". Same with pivoting him to turn around. These can result in distance gained or lost which compounds the farther you go. Walking in perfectly straight lines for long distances only works well on a couple of map locations. Minor course corrections do not typically add more than 1 full step, but it is something that must be factored in. 

I do the best I can with what I've got. If it is good enough to spur discussion and let people see more what is going on in game mechanics, I'm good with that. If people feel it is good enough to grasp gameplay impact, I'm good with that too.

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26 minutes ago, Truth said:

This is all so beyond me that I can't really comment on it. I believe that you did this to the best of your ability, and certainly never intended to misinform anyone. You specified your margin of error and that seems pretty tight to me. I don't think the 1 second (or likely less) is enough of a difference to claim you're wrong, and I'd definitely take your word over anyone else on the matter.

The one second difference again isn't what the main discrepancy was as that would make both shifts calculate to be slower but it would change their values equally thus still giving the same difference between the two shifts in speed (which should be zero) the reason the difference in speed wasn't zero was because @Alkavian counted + shift as traveling more steps than regular shift, whether due to a miscount or because of a shadow change it is false that it goes a further distance, this creates a difference in the end values of the shifts relative speeds to each other which is the information you are looking for.

The individual step distance margin of error is fine as lets say (these are stupid example values) you made each step a half meter, and regular shift went 6 steps and + went 8, regular would be 3 meters and + would be 4 making it 33% faster, now lets say if you made each step 1 meter that would make regular come out to 6 meters and + 8 meters yet it's still 33% faster, you see what I mean? but if you count the wrong amount of steps it all falls apart

Edit: Alk I implore you to try my method and see what you come up with, but the distance value needs to be times 5 seconds for reg and + shift otherwise you end up with the average velocity jason was starting before the shift until the end of it which is obviously brought down by him not moving for that second

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5 minutes ago, RampageRhino said:

The step margin of error is fine as lets say (these are stupid example values) you made each step a half meter, and regular shift went 6 steps and + went 8, regular would be 3 meters and + would be 4 making it 33% faster, now lets say if you made each step 1 meter that would make regular come out to 6 meters and + 8 meters yet it's still 33% faster, you see what I mean? but if you count the wrong amount of steps it all falls apart

Like I said, WAY beyond me... I appreciate you trying to dumb it down for me though lol

So using your method, what do YOU come up with for those values (range/speed)?

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3 minutes ago, RampageRhino said:

The one second difference again isn't what the main discrepancy was as that would make both shifts calculate to be slower but it would change their values equally thus still giving the same difference between the two shifts in speed (which should be zero) the reason the difference in speed wasn't zero was because @Alkavian counted + shift as traveling more steps than regular shift, whether due to a miscount or because of a shadow change it is false that it goes a further distance, this creates a difference in the end values of the shifts relative speeds to each other which is the information you are looking for.

The step margin of error is fine as lets say (these are stupid example values) you made each step a half meter, and regular shift went 6 steps and + went 8, regular would be 3 meters and + would be 4 making it 33% faster, now lets say if you made each step 1 meter that would make regular come out to 6 meters and + 8 meters yet it's still 33% faster, you see what I mean? but if you count the wrong amount of steps it all falls apart

It could be a pace count issue as well certainly. It could be as simple looking at the wrong pace notes I took for the dozens of tests. I had 4 pages worth of notes with all the Jasons ability values + other testing data to plot known distances. I'm only human.

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3 minutes ago, Truth said:

Like I said, WAY beyond me... I appreciate you trying to dumb it down for me though lol

So using your method, what do YOU come up with for those values (range/speed)?

I don't come up with any values as I don't know the distance in values, I simply used a method to give them the exact same starting position and direction of the shift and saw that they went the same distance, as they both have a shift time of 5 seconds this means they are going the same distance in the same amount of time and speed = distance/time so therfore they are going the same speed, this post wasn't to find their speed it was to illustrate that whatever it was it was the same for both of them

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2 minutes ago, RampageRhino said:

I don't come up with any values as I don't know the distance in values, I simply used a method to give them the exact same starting position and direction of the shift and saw that they went the same distance, as they both have a shift time of 5 seconds this means they are going the same distance in the same amount of time and speed = distance/time so therfore they are going the same speed, this post wasn't to find their speed it was to illustrate that whatever it was it was the same for both of them

Well according to @Alkavian's results, the difference is about 1.75 kph. Isn't that close enough? I certainly wouldn't say he is wrong...

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