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VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow

4 Strengths & Weaknesses Overhaul Version 3.0

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2 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

I was just thinking that when counselors are at low composure, it becomes harder to escape. Increased fear upon grabs would effectively make grabs stupidly powerful because it becomes harder to break out at high fear levels. So is it really a good idea? Perhaps instead use the bodyblocking thing to knock counselors out of Jason's grip when counselors hit each other like I said in a couple other threads. That might be just enough to make Grip Strength matter.

I mean AFTER they break free. Not during it. That's unfair!

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7 minutes ago, NoOneK9503 said:

I mean AFTER they break free. Not during it. That's unfair!

Ok. Maybe it could be in addition to the bodyblocking thing. For now I'll leave it as I've changed it. Maybe I'll change my mind later.

Before the latest patch, when Part 4 came out, there was a bug that made Jasons destroy doors in 1 or 2 less hits because it was reading the weapon striking twice occasionally. This made every "normal" destruction Jason destroy doors in 4 or 5 hits rather than 6. Part 4 was 2 hits. What if instead of 3-5-7 the destruction levels were 2-4-6? It was kind of absurd having to deal with that as a counselor but maybe with the other changes it might balance out.

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@VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow

Are you sure you don't want Stamina Loss as a side effect for Weapon Strength Jasons? I mean, this is Friday the 13th, we are not supposed to fight Jason. How about: 

Weapon Damage

Besides the damage difference, each time a counselor is hit by Jason's weapon, their total Stamina (130 maximum a.k.a. 10/10 counselor) is taken by a certain amount.

-Weapon Strength: Lower damage and 15 of Stamina taken by each hit.

Neutral Weapon Damage: Normal damage and 30 of Stamina taken by each hit.

+Weapon Damage: Higher damage and 40 of Stamina taken by each hit.

 

For more Stamina info: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=938559619

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36 minutes ago, NoOneK9503 said:

@VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow

Are you sure you don't want Stamina Loss as a side effect for Weapon Strength Jasons? I mean, this is Friday the 13th, we are not supposed to fight Jason. How about: 

Weapon Damage

Besides the damage difference, each time a counselor is hit by Jason's weapon, their total Stamina (130 maximum a.k.a. 10/10 counselor) is taken by a certain amount.

-Weapon Strength: Lower damage and 15 of Stamina taken by each hit.

Neutral Weapon Damage: Normal damage and 30 of Stamina taken by each hit.

+Weapon Damage: Higher damage and 40 of Stamina taken by each hit.

 

For more Stamina info: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=938559619

It would have the same end result as if Melee damage was merely increased: The counselor dies. If Jason could keep counselors stuck in place by attacking them repeatedly, it might as well be an instant kill. Rather than stacking another effect onto melee attacks, they should introduce more types of melee attacks.

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30 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

It would have the same end result as if Melee damage was merely increased: The counselor dies. If Jason could keep counselors stuck in place by attacking them repeatedly, it might as well be an instant kill. Rather than stacking another effect onto melee attacks, they should introduce more types of melee attacks.

I don't think so.

The melee attack, by doing this, can combine with Shift to shorten the chase and grab it when it runs out of Stamina. Like this at 0:56:

If the counselor is armed, it can choose to fight and stun him with the risk of being unsuccessful and hacked by Jason or he can run when seeing him if you are unarmed because easy Shift-Grabs... No more!

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2 minutes ago, NoOneK9503 said:

I don't think so.

The melee attack, by doing this, can combine with Shift to shorten the chase and grab it when it runs out of Stamina. Like this at 0:56:

If the counselor is armed, it can choose to fight and stun him with the risk of being unsuccessful and hacked by Jason or he can run when seeing him if you are unarmed because easy Shift-Grabs... No more!

I still don't think stamina loss upon attack is going to work. Maybe reduce stamina regeneration speed for a short time frame could work, but not outright stealing a chunk stamina from them.

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Just now, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

I still don't think stamina loss upon attack is going to work. Maybe reduce stamina regeneration speed for a short time frame could work, but not outright stealing a chunk stamina from them.

Not bad.

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This has surely been mentioned, but I think they've done part IV a disservice visually. He was a pretty scary Jason, remember his face in the shower kill. Dark eyes. Yet in this game his eyes are so bright like they just propped a mask over a perfectly clean face. They should really darken it. 

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25 minutes ago, pepperNcrash said:

This has surely been mentioned, but I think they've done part IV a disservice visually. He was a pretty scary Jason, remember his face in the shower kill. Dark eyes. Yet in this game his eyes are so bright like they just propped a mask over a perfectly clean face. They should really darken it. 

Like this?

Q1kTnvM.jpg

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I updated the OP. I swapped Part 7 and 9's +Fear and +Rage with each other because I feel that Part 7 needs that buff more so than Part 9, who already has some powerful strengths. I changed +Rage to increase Rage meter speed by 50%, up from 30%. Also changed one of Savini's weaknesses to -Stun Resistance to counter his high combat lethality.

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While I don't have time to read through the entire thread, I do COMPLETELY agree with the original post. These changes would make his strengths and weaknesses actually matter.

I personally switch between 8 and 3, the only things I change right now are that I either slash more and break doors less or vice versa. 

Edit: Actually, I'd change throwing knives to match traps.

Normal would be start with 3 knives + the two in the cabin = 5.

-knives would be start with 1 knife + the two in the cabin = 3

+knives would be start with 5 knives + the two in the cabin = 7

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20 minutes ago, Alcanx said:

While I don't have time to read through the entire thread, I do COMPLETELY agree with the original post. These changes would make his strengths and weaknesses actually matter.

I personally switch between 8 and 3, the only things I change right now are that I either slash more and break doors less or vice versa. 

Edit: Actually, I'd change throwing knives to match traps.

Normal would be start with 3 knives + the two in the cabin = 5.

-knives would be start with 1 knife + the two in the cabin = 3

+knives would be start with 5 knives + the two in the cabin = 7

Thanks. That could work, and I thought about that. I decided to go with 0-2-6 because there are some Jasons that can be quite overbearing when combined with many knives. I could change it to 0-3-6 because sometimes as Jason I'll randomly get an additional knife at the start for a total of 3.

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7 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

Thanks. That could work, and I thought about that. I decided to go with 0-2-6 because there are some Jasons that can be quite overbearing when combined with many knives. I could change it to 0-3-6 because sometimes as Jason I'll randomly get an additional knife at the start for a total of 3.

I don't really find it fair to start any Jason off with less than 2 knives (assuming you still want the cabin 2 removed). I use knives a lot on my second morph, just before shift, when I get to the car. If anyone is repairing, I can stop them with a knife and then place my trap. 

There's also the matter of extra knives not being all too obvious, I'll get maybe 2-3 extra while breaking power boxes, but I don't spend my time tracking down knives to grab. 

Maybe knives could be a bit more obvious on the map? Like they glow red sense-style when you're in a certain radius of them?

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9 minutes ago, Alcanx said:

I don't really find it fair to start any Jason off with less than 2 knives (assuming you still want the cabin 2 removed). I use knives a lot on my second morph, just before shift, when I get to the car. If anyone is repairing, I can stop them with a knife and then place my trap. 

There's also the matter of extra knives not being all too obvious, I'll get maybe 2-3 extra while breaking power boxes, but I don't spend my time tracking down knives to grab. 

Maybe knives could be a bit more obvious on the map? Like they glow red sense-style when you're in a certain radius of them?

I'm willing to go as far as starting with 1 knife for the situation you described. Personally I hardly come across that exact situation right at the start of the match. 1-3-6 or 1-3-7 perhaps. And yes it's a good idea to make knives more obvious like make them glow on sense and say make their circle icon red. There are often knives near enough to the vehicles to re-load after a situation at the game start like you say. Personally I feel like some Jasons have powerful enough strengths that they'd warrant a limitation like this. I've also changed a little bit in the OP. I felt some of my changes strayed too far from the devs original intentions so I've streamlined some of them.

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22 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

I'm willing to go as far as starting with 1 knife for the situation you described. Personally I hardly come across that exact situation right at the start of the match. 1-3-6 or 1-3-7 perhaps. And yes it's a good idea to make knives more obvious like make them glow on sense and say make their circle icon red. There are often knives near enough to the vehicles to re-load after a situation at the game start like you say. Personally I feel like some Jasons have powerful enough strengths that they'd warrant a limitation like this. I've also changed a little bit in the OP. I felt some of my changes strayed too far from the devs original intentions so I've streamlined some of them.

I'm seeing a problem with part 8 mostly, minus knives + can't run + no shift strength mean's councilors can easily put distance between him and themselves. Morph may be a good strength, yes, but morphing to an objective means nothing if the councilors can simply jog away and leave you in the dust. 

Edit: -stun resistance and no weapon strength/defence also means he'd be pretty bad in close combat. 

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2 minutes ago, Alcanx said:

I'm seeing a problem with part 8 mostly, minus knives + can't run + no shift strength mean's councilors can easily put distance between him and themselves. Morph may be a good strength, yes, but morphing to an objective means nothing if the councilors can simply jog away and leave you in the dust. 

Part 8 is one of the favorites since launch because of his destruction buff. And that's just with 3 buffs. With the addition of +Morph he'll be able to control the map more and perhaps have more free time to gather knives. He'll be able to keep the pressure on in my opinion.

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4 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

Part 8 is one of the favorites since launch because of his destruction buff. And that's just with 3 buffs. With the addition of +Morph he'll be able to control the map more and perhaps have more free time to gather knives. He'll be able to keep the pressure on in my opinion.

I edited my previous post to point out why he'd be bad at close combat. Really it seems you suited him for a 'jumpscare' playstyle. He can morph around and has +stalk but once he's been spotted, he really has nothing else at his disposal. He's bad at both close combat and at giving chase, both of which are the most common methods of hunting. 

Part 4 and Savini both have + destruction, part 4 also being good at close combat and Savini being good at giving chase. Map control means nothing if you can't effectively kill.

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9 minutes ago, Alcanx said:

I edited my previous post to point out why he'd be bad at close combat. Really it seems you suited him for a 'jumpscare' playstyle. He can morph around and has +stalk but once he's been spotted, he really has nothing else at his disposal. He's bad at both close combat and at giving chase, both of which are the most common methods of hunting. 

Part 4 and Savini both have + destruction, part 4 also being good at close combat and Savini being good at giving chase.

Part 8 still has standard defense. Stun resistance is just the length of the stun. Also remember that the fireaxe has a fast attack animation so that's another minor reason why people like him so much. Given that any issues with hit detection would be fixed, I feel that my version of Part 8 would still be a beast.

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17 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

Part 8 still has standard defense. Stun resistance is just the length of the stun. Also remember that the fireaxe has a fast attack animation so that's another minor reason why people like him so much. Given that any issues with hit detection would be fixed, I feel that my version of Part 8 would still be a beast.

I have to disagree, stun length still plays a part in close combat, you're just giving them more time to put distance between them and him. Not only that, but time to heal, enter a cabin, repair an objective, start the car, or find a new weapon. Stun time is a serious weakness. -Stun matched with no weapon strength or defence means he'd be bad at combat. One debuff and no buffs.

He'd be average at best with giving chase, destruction is a plus but no throwing knives matched with -stun resistance (again, more time to put distance) and no +shift (less opportunity to close distance) and no run ability ( again, less opportunity to close distance) means he'd get run around the map like crazy by anyone with decent speed/stamina. 

+Morph and 5 traps means he can prevent objectives being worked on, but like I said before, that's useless if he can't kill. Councilors would just dick around and run out the timer. Sure, they won't get points for escaping, but you won't get points for killing, either. 

I'd personally change +morph to +shift. What he did in the movies could be classed as 'morphing' but I'd personally define it as shifting. He didn't move far enough for it to be a morph, and in the 'disco' scene, he literally grabbed that girl out of thin air. An actual, canon 'shift grab'. 

+shift would be enough to counter the -knives/stun resistance, or you could give him -rage instead. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Alcanx said:

I have to disagree, stun length still plays a part in close combat, you're just giving them more time to put distance between them and him. Not only that, but time to heal, enter a cabin, repair an objective, start the car, or find a new weapon. Stun time is a serious weakness. -Stun matched with no weapon strength or defence means he'd be bad at combat. One debuff and no buffs.

He'd be average at best with giving chase, destruction is a plus but no throwing knives matched with -stun resistance (again, more time to put distance) and no +shift (less opportunity to close distance) and no run ability ( again, less opportunity to close distance) means he'd get run around the map like crazy by anyone with decent speed/stamina. 

+Morph and 5 traps means he can prevent objectives being worked on, but like I said before, that's useless if he can't kill. Councilors would just dick around and run out the timer. Sure, they won't get points for escaping, but you won't get points for killing, either. 

I'd personally change +morph to +shift. What he did in the movies could be classed as 'morphing' but I'd personally define it as shifting. He didn't move far enough for it to be a morph, and in the 'disco' scene, he literally grabbed that girl out of thin air. An actual, canon 'shift grab'. 

+shift would be enough to counter the -knives, or you could give him -rage instead. 

 

You could be right, but at least one other person has liked my part 8 idea, so I need a bigger sample size of opinions before I change him again. My thought process was that no walking Jason has a +Morph. The only one that does has a -Shift and -Water Speed. +Morph combined with normal Shift and +Water speed means very high mobility. I was thinking in Part 8 he seemed to be everywhere all the time, so I wanted to reflect that in gameplay. He also was put down for long periods at least twice, thus my reasoning for -Stun Resistance. The idea is that it's easy to get distance from part 8 but it's also easy for him to close the distance, made more dangerous with extra Stalk.

For part 4 it's easy for him to tunnel people, easy to keep chasing and steadily close the distance over time but not as good at quickly closing distance in a pinch. Part 8 would be designed to quickly close the distance at the risk of losing distance over time. Give and take.

I am taking your opinion into consideration but I'm going to leave it be until more people share their opinions.

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My only real major disagreement with you here @VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow is that part 6 was indeed sneaky in that movie.

Many of his kills came out of nowhere with victims never seeing it coming. The utility belt, hunting knife, machete and spear pole ... this Jason was the most "hunting machine" Jason of all the films. I understand the bad-ass look of part 7, and the kill counts and whatnot.

But seriously, go watch part 6 ... that was the movie where Jason BECAME the literal killing MACHINE. Every aspect of him was about efficient kills. Triple Machete decapitation, smashed vodka bottle to the throat, arm rip machete grab, throwing knife to skull, pulled out window mutilation ALL were jump scare kills that suggest a VERY stealthy, experienced hunter Jason.

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8 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

+Morph combined with normal Shift and +Water speed means very high mobility.

He also was put down for long periods at least twice, thus my reasoning for -Stun Resistance.

I personally wouldn't consider +water speed to contribute to high mobility, water speed only really matters if there's a boat, and I've only used his +water speed in place of his morph on the Higgins map and the Jarvis map, where the lake can actually get you places. 

Water speed is useless on maps where the lake is limited to one side, which is currently most of them. I hope they add more maps like Higgins/Jarvis in the future because +water speed is fun as fuck to utilise. I've jumpscared my friends a couple times by using +stalk and +water speed to emerge by the boat after they thought I'd wasted morph. 

Right now +water speed is limited by the current maps.

And again, I wouldn't really use the movie to justify -stun resistance. He was put down by a car and a main track. You mentioned that he punched a guys head off to justify no -grip, but he also took several hits from the same guy before doing so. 

If anything, I'd say -defence. His mask came of pretty easy in the movie. Hell, he took it off himself TWICE. Once at the end and once when intimidating the gangsters. 

I get that you don't have to confrom to my opinion, I'm just sharing my ideas here.

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3 minutes ago, dmack621 said:

My only real major disagreement with you here @VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow is that part 6 was indeed sneaky in that movie.

Many of his kills came out of nowhere with victims never seeing it coming. The utility belt, hunting knife, machete and spear pole ... this Jason was the most "hunting machine" Jason of all the films. I understand the bad-ass look of part 7, and the kill counts and whatnot.

But seriously, go watch part 6 ... that was the movie where Jason BECAME the literal killing MACHINE. Every aspect of him was about efficient kills. Triple Machete decapitation, smashed vodka bottle to the throat, arm rip machete grab, throwing knife to skull, pulled out window mutilation ALL were jump scare kills that suggest a VERY stealthy, experienced hunter Jason.

I thought about Part 6 a lot and I felt that his default stats were very well balanced, so I tried to think of a strength and weakness that were the least consequential to overall gameplay. Thus +Grip Strength, which doesn't do quite so much, and -Stalk because with the way most people play Part 6, they might as well not be using it. What would you think would be appropriate in place of that?

5 minutes ago, Alcanx said:

I personally wouldn't consider +water speed to contribute to high mobility, water speed only really matters if there's a boat, and I've only used his +water speed in place of his morph on the Higgins map and the Jarvis map, where the lake can actually get you places. 

Water speed is useless on maps where the lake is limited to one side, which is currently most of them. I hope they add more maps like Higgins/Jarvis in the future because +water speed is fun as fuck to utilise. I've jumpscared my friends a couple times by using +stalk and +water speed to emerge by the boat after they thought I'd wasted morph. 

Right now +water speed is limited by the current maps.

And again, I wouldn't really use the movie to justify -stun resistance. He was put down by a car and a main track. You mentioned that he punched a guys head off to justify no -grip, but he also took several hits from the same guy before doing so. 

If anything, I'd say -defence. His mask came of pretty easy in the movie. Hell, he took it off himself TWICE. Once at the end and once when intimidating the gangsters. 

I get that you don't have to confrom to my opinion, I'm just sharing my ideas here.

My thoughts on -Defense were that he seemed pretty tough. Comparing -Defense and -Stun Resistance, I felt that even the longest stuns in -Stun Resistance aren't that bad, while losing the mask early on can be a problem because it gives the Jason player another thing to track(hunting down would-be Jason killers) at the same time other objectives are getting worked on. And yes I know you're not trying to "win" an argument or anything, I'm just sharing my reasoning and taking yours into consideration.

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2 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

I thought about Part 6 a lot and I felt that his default stats were very well balanced, so I tried to think of a strength and weakness that were the least consequential to overall gameplay. Thus +Grip Strength, which doesn't do quite so much, and -Stalk because with the way most people play Part 6, they might as well not be using it. What would you think would be appropriate in place of that?

I make full use of stalk with Part 6, always have. Many people do play him incorrectly to his strengths and weaknesses. 

What I would honestly do here? Remove Throwing knives as a strength. Yes he starts with them, but every Jason can get them at game start and the few seconds to grab a knife before morphing to where you can grab another knife after trapping an objective is inconsequential. I would leave his stalk as is because it's fine ... it's not as long as Part 8 etc but isn't crazy short and shouldn't be. I would raise his HP as he's a zombie Jason, not a human Jason. If we're adding a strength and weakness this is how part 6 would look:

Strengths:

+Defense - This Jason has more hit points than others which means he is harder to demask and is more successful on block.

+Sense -This ability has a faster cooldown, can last longer once activated, and has a wider effective range starting off.

+ Shift - The cooldown for this ability is shorter, and can move at faster speed.

+ Stealth - This Jason is less noisy than other Jasons, not including the stalk ability. ie: His footsteps sound more like counselors when not in stalk.

 

Weaknesses:

- Can't run - This Jason can only fast walk and not run like part 2,3,4 Jasons.

- Morph - The cooldown for this ability is longer.

- Boat Stun - This Jason can be stunned by the boat propeller while attempting a boat stop if not in the right placement.

- Grip Strength - this Jason's grasp is easier to break free from than others.

 

 

 

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