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Sanetsuken

"+water speed" and/or boat needs to change

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Alright so i haven't seen much of this, but "+water speed" on any jason needs to change and this is why.

The boat is the highest risk escape you can do, and the reason for it is any +water jason that exists. Now, if he's not in the game that's one thing, but it still doesn't FIX the issue with boat escapes.

 

For one, you're completely defenceless. There's no middle way here. If you get tipped over in the boat, you die. Unless that jason decides to just let you live, but that's arbitrary and isn't an argument that's viable. Once jason catches the boat, it's gg. you have no way to fight in the water, you have no way to fight in the boat, you're just fucked.

Now, +water speed jasons have the added problem with being LITERALLY FASTER THAN THE GODDAMN BOAT.

So this means that if jason hears you starting the boat (he will/should), you have no way of escape. You can at best ditch the boat and hope to come back with the boat still being functionable. If you have to restart it, tough luck you just have to ditch it again.

 

Now the reason this is a problem is because it's so horribly unbalanced game wise. The Part 2/3 jasons can run, and is therefore a bigger problem when you're talking about the car, since they are quicker to get in position to have you crash into it when driving. however, a skilled driver can still AVOID the jasons that run (and everyone else obviously) and make an escape. Worst case scenario, you are able to get out of t he car and maybe stave of jason for the precious seconds needed to get the car running again. This is completely irrelevant when trying ot escape by boat as mentioned earlier. if your boat gets pushed, you're dead in the water.

So as it is, the boat is fundamentally broken. If it spawns in with +water speed jason, you have effectively automatically eliminated one type of escape just by choosing the correct jason, and i don't see how that's good game balancing as it is. Either the boat needs to change, or you need ot add some kind of countermeasure to it so the drivers have some kind of chance at escaping even with jason there, equal to the car. With +water speed, they don't have to outplay you or anything, they can just...swim up to you.

Yes, jason needs to be op, but no, he doesn't need to automatically deny an escape measure just for having chosen the "correct" option when starting a match.

Also we really need more ways to escape as a sidenote. 1 man escapes, 2 man, you name it. I'll take a unicycle, just do MORE with it.

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They don't need to change anything. Plenty of people have been smart enough to keep their heads low when I played as a Jason who didn't have water speed as an advantage & managed to escape. I've even flipped the boat over, and while I killed one person, the other counselor got back in, started up and made it out safely.

So while I agree that maybe one or two extra ways of escaping could be implemented down the line, they don't need to alter Jason's speed. If you move quick enough when repairing that boat & you're not against part 7 or part 8 Jason, unless you're dicking around there's no way he should catch you.

 

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I agree. They also need to fix getting into the boat from the water. Right now it's very, VERY finicky and you have to be in the exact correct pixel to get into the driver's seat of the boat, otherwise you'll get into the passenger's seat. ON TOP OF THAT, you can't transition from the passenger's seat to the driver's seat and stay in the boat, you have to get out completely and get back in. What? Excuse my language but that's retarded.

So yeah the difference between normal and enhanced water speed is too great. Enhanced water speed needs to at best be as fast as the boat or only slightly slower. Any good Jason will morph ahead of the boat first before trying to attack the boat, so it's not like water speed is even an issue if you're Jason.

If people could throw items out of the boat and the car like firecrackers, or aim the shotgun or flare gun from the passenger seat, then that would help a lot.

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3 minutes ago, Emperiex said:

They don't need to change anything. Plenty of people have been smart enough to keep their heads low when I played as a Jason who didn't have water speed as an advantage & managed to escape. I've even flipped the boat over, and while I killed one person, the other counselor got back in, started up and made it out safely.

So while I agree that maybe one or two extra ways of escaping could be implemented down the line, they don't need to alter Jason's speed. If you move quick enough when repairing that boat & you're not against part 7 or part 8 Jason, unless you're dicking around there's no way he should catch you.

 

You can't "keep your head low" as jason is alerted once the boat starts. Either that, or it's bugged out to hell, 'cause i hear it everytime.  And you failing to kill both players falling off the boat constitutes you being slow or deliberately giving the other guy a chance to run away, as any jason has plenty of time to tip the boat, drown one guy, tip the boat again because other guy is in and drown him as well. Yes, even part 2.

And it's not just Jason's speed, it's about how limited you are once you are on the boat. I'm not saying it needs a gattling gun at the front, i'm saying that the boat is the highest risk for the lowest reward. At most you get out 2 people, with tremendous risk.  It's not like the car, or the cops (even with 5 min waiting time, which is insane to consider).

 

You also seem to not take into account the fact that "dicking around" is moot, seeing as jason can teleport. Now, teleporting is fine, but adding that to the othe rproblems regarding the boat makes the entire thing shaky at best. It's fine that the devs want you to have "a sliver of hope", but there is a point where balance has to come in. And this is one of those points.

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It's really not that tough, Just don't B line to the exit if in the boat. Give jason a couple zigs or zags and you should be fine. I've been tipped over in a boat only once, and I think that's a pretty good percentage.

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3 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

@Sanetsuken Can you provide some video of someone starting the boat and Jason getting an audio cue? I'm on PC and I swear I NEVER get an audio cue when someone starts the boat.

haven't saved footage of...well, ANYTHING so far, but most definetly. Won't be tonight but i'll let you know.

3 minutes ago, ericrightshow said:

It's really not that tough, Just don't B line to the exit if in the boat. Give jason a couple zigs or zags and you should be fine. I've been tipped over in a boat only once, and I think that's a pretty good percentage.

I'm not looking at it from a personal angle...yes, i've escaped on boat plenty of times, and i've watched people escape on boat, and the one key difference is if jason hears you, at ALL. You're dead. If you get tipped over in the boat, you're DEAD. The ONLY reason you wouldn't be is if jason is too stupid to realize there were 2 (somehow), or simply just let one person escape because reasons.

That doesn't change the fact that for a high risk, low reward type escape, you either make it 100% because jason was luckily preoccupied, or you're completely ass fucked because jason sees the boat moving, or hears it start and scoots right up to you with teleport and drowns you and whatever friend you have nearby. You can't "zig zag" around that. With +water speed on top of that? It doesn't matter what you do, because jason can do circles around the boat and still have enough to murder you with water. You don't zig zag around that. You can't go "oh i zigged when i should have zagged" with a +water speed jason.

IF jason is preoccupied with a car, or is tunneling someone, THATS an opening to escape. But there's nothing else that relies on that to happen SO MUCH.

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1 hour ago, Sanetsuken said:

You can't "keep your head low" as jason is alerted once the boat starts. Either that, or it's bugged out to hell, 'cause i hear it everytime.  And you failing to kill both players falling off the boat constitutes you being slow or deliberately giving the other guy a chance to run away, as any jason has plenty of time to tip the boat, drown one guy, tip the boat again because other guy is in and drown him as well. Yes, even part 2.

And it's not just Jason's speed, it's about how limited you are once you are on the boat. I'm not saying it needs a gattling gun at the front, i'm saying that the boat is the highest risk for the lowest reward. At most you get out 2 people, with tremendous risk.  It's not like the car, or the cops (even with 5 min waiting time, which is insane to consider).

 

You also seem to not take into account the fact that "dicking around" is moot, seeing as jason can teleport. Now, teleporting is fine, but adding that to the othe rproblems regarding the boat makes the entire thing shaky at best. It's fine that the devs want you to have "a sliver of hope", but there is a point where balance has to come in. And this is one of those points.

How the hell does that constitute me being slow if I caught them right before they hit the checkpoint, killed one and the other was quick enough to get back in right after, start the boat and drive several feet to escape? I'd also have to chime in that in the many times I've played as Jason, I don't get any audio alert when the boat is started, I just got lucky enough that they started moving as I was about to morph.

I agree that you shouldn't be quite so defenseless in the water, but the actual water speed doesn't need to be altered, imo.

Sometimes you'll get lucky, sometimes you won't. Hell, one time I managed to fix the boat using Buggzy alone and then got killed, came back as Tommy, swam to the boat & escaped anyway. Shit happens.

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The boat is easier to fix (less parts) and as a result is riskier.

You gotta risk it for the biscuit!

I think its fine how to it, i'm fully aware that if i take the boat i'm at a higher risk. You just have to make a judgement call based on what everyone else is doing and how preoccupided Jason is.

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1 hour ago, Emperiex said:

How the hell does that constitute me being slow if I caught them right before they hit the checkpoint, killed one and the other was quick enough to get back in right after, start the boat and drive several feet to escape?

Literally never seen. Where you confused as to where the boat was? 'cause that's the one thing off the top of my head.

 

1 hour ago, Emperiex said:

 

I agree that you shouldn't be quite so defenseless in the water, but the actual water speed doesn't need to be altered, imo.

Well, no, the water speed doesn't HAVE to be altered, but something needs to be done to balance it out more. that's the entire gist of my argument here.

 

1 hour ago, Emperiex said:

Sometimes you'll get lucky, sometimes you won't.

This ain't xcom, luck shouldn't be THAT much of a factor into one of the main escaping options. That is the vehicle itself, not the parts for it mind you

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1 hour ago, Sanetsuken said:

Literally never seen. Where you confused as to where the boat was? 'cause that's the one thing off the top of my head.

 

Well, no, the water speed doesn't HAVE to be altered, but something needs to be done to balance it out more. that's the entire gist of my argument here.

 

This ain't xcom, luck shouldn't be THAT much of a factor into one of the main escaping options. That is the vehicle itself, not the parts for it mind you

Dude, no. There was no confusion. The guy, while a friend of mine, has a knack for surviving (and doing so without cheating, which makes it more impressive). He simply got back in the boat and drove off. I swam after him but since they were already so close to the escape point, he was able to get away. It's not down to anybody playing badly but more so him having good timing & making good use of the fact that I targeted the other counselor and not him.

Like I said, I do agree that counselors shouldn't be 100% defenseless in the water but anything outside of making it capable for players to use weapons wouldn't be ideal. But again, that's just my opinion. The best thing to balance it would be allowing for counselors to be able to set off firecrackers, use pocket knives, etc. when in water but the water speed shouldn't be touched.

I've had quite a few instances where I couldn't catch the boat using Jason, even when using parts 7 & 8. Reducing Jason's speed would only make that a regular occurrence that I, as well as many others, wouldn't welcome gladly.

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I played a match with Savini Jason tonight and I can confirm there is NO audio cue when the boat is started. I'm kind of 50/50 on this. I mean, if Jason catches you in water, you're dead, so I guess Jason is just going to have to pay attention to the boat when it spawns.

 

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10 hours ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

I played a match with Savini Jason tonight and I can confirm there is NO audio cue when the boat is started. I'm kind of 50/50 on this. I mean, if Jason catches you in water, you're dead, so I guess Jason is just going to have to pay attention to the boat when it spawns.

 

Very weird i could have sworn i could hear it over and over again. Too much to be a coincidence. Gonna check out what tha tsound eventually WAS.

 

 

11 hours ago, Emperiex said:

Dude, no. There was no confusion. The guy, while a friend of mine, has a knack for surviving (and doing so without cheating, which makes it more impressive). He simply got back in the boat and drove off. I swam after him but since they were already so close to the escape point, he was able to get away. It's not down to anybody playing badly but more so him having good timing & making good use of the fact that I targeted the other counselor and not him.

Like I said, I do agree that counselors shouldn't be 100% defenseless in the water but anything outside of making it capable for players to use weapons wouldn't be ideal. But again, that's just my opinion. The best thing to balance it would be allowing for counselors to be able to set off firecrackers, use pocket knives, etc. when in water but the water speed shouldn't be touched.

I've had quite a few instances where I couldn't catch the boat using Jason, even when using parts 7 & 8. Reducing Jason's speed would only make that a regular occurrence that I, as well as many others, wouldn't welcome gladly.

Alright well i can't speak to it since it's personal experience, but i CAN speak to my own in this matter. I just don't see how he could have got away. When playing against any jason, and the boat tips, i barely have enough time to START the vehicle (or whoever i'm playing with).

So, i guess, if jason is fumbling about and need to redirect you can get a few more feet in, and if that's right by the exit, maybe so. I'm not gonna say it's impossible. Not that it matters because my original point stands.

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Whenever I play Jason and someone is working on the boat, the only audio cue I've had to go on is the loud CLUNK when they screw up repairing the propeller. Other than that I've never heard a cue like the motor starting and have to rely on watching my map for the boat to move.

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14 hours ago, Super-Luke88 said:

The boat is easier to fix (less parts) and as a result is riskier.

You gotta risk it for the biscuit!

I think its fine how to it, i'm fully aware that if i take the boat i'm at a higher risk. You just have to make a judgement call based on what everyone else is doing and how preoccupided Jason is.

I think this is correct.

It's an easier option, but a riskier proposition.

It's not safe to go in the water.

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It's quicker to fix than the car and Jason cannot hear when the boat is started unlike the car so it is perfectly balanced. If you are not playing in a group or with people actively reporting Jason's location just stay close to the shore until you make the final dash to the exit so you have a chance of survival if you get caught. If you take the risk of driving the boat in the middle of the lake when you don't need to that is on you.

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Nothing wrong with the boat, I have fixed it and escaped many times, i have also been caught several times.  Its a high risk high reward thing, since its literally the easiest way to fix/escape next to calling the cops.  But I only use it if I find the propeller before I find anything else.  Its a risk, but anyone who goes for the boat knows that.

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Well it looks like i'm alone in my thinking. One less part to repair makes it worth to lose 2 counselors guaranteed if jason knows you're out there. Alright then.

@VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow   You were right about the starting sound. It must have been a bug on my part earlier or something. Doesn't matter now i s'pose.

 

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Totally agree. I've lost more matches IN the boat than actually escaped bc Jason "touched" me. It should go into a mini reflex challenge. If Jason wins he tips you over. If the counselor wins they wrap a chain around Jason's neck and escape. 

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