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Friday the 13th knowledge base -- counselor/Jason data, full maps, tier lists

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16 minutes ago, tyrant666 said:

The numbers may not lie.

But my preference dictates if I see a match full of Vanessa or Bugsy. I almost always leave the lobby.

I find Vanessa to be a troll character, nothing more. Terrible at everything, except annoying average/mid level Jason players with long, drawn out looping games. Bugsy less so, but Vanessa I know what kind of game im getting into, in the chance I get Jason. I don't mind some Vanessa, but too much of anything is never a good thing.

To me, the only legitimate lobbies are lobbies that feature any of the other characters, or a mix of them. Thankfully, I honestly don't find many Vanessa/Bugsy spam lobbies. I really haven't in the time I've played this game.

I so wish private lobby offered the lobby leader to force the players to pick one character per selection. I know this wouldn't be a POPULAR feature in quick match and lobbies would never ever fill if a lobby leader chose it. I just think it should be available. But obviously they haven't done this or don't think its worth it because I said, you take away choice.

My only real complaints about the strength and weaknesses of the counselors is Jenny should be a lot better for being the final girl archetype. I get that she's gotta have weaknesses, but she shouldn't be a worse option than literally every other female character. Like im gonna be pissed if even the BITCHY archetype ends up being a better character than Jenny. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Some things could use some reworking. Will they happen without the need of a DLC? Good question.

 

To each their own in terms of play style; as I have said in all of my guides and tier lists, my advice is directed at players who work together in teams and are trying to win. Frankly, I think the community would riot if there were forced unique picks or anything like that (even though I know that is not what you're getting at, you mentioned private lobbies).

I do agree, in wishing Jenny were better. I really like her archetype and character design, and I would love for her to be more viable.

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There are other ways to work in teams than the methods spelled out here... and they are not suboptimal. This is a much more modular game than I think this methodology gives it credit for. 

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The thing is, in a perfect meta, all the Counselors would be viable and unique. Which is most likely utopian. But that doesn't mean the devs shouldn't aspire to get as close as possible to that direction as possible.

And that's currently not the case from an objective tryhard pov.

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27 minutes ago, pRaX said:

The thing is, in a perfect meta, all the Counselors would be viable and unique. Which is most likely utopian. But that doesn't mean the devs shouldn't aspire to get as close as possible to that direction as possible.

And that's currently not the case from an objective tryhard pov.

As someone who has put a lot of hours in this game and considers themselves at least a halfway decent tryhard, I can't make any case for Vanessa being the end all-be all counselor. Chad? Sure. I'll buy that he's strong for a number of reasons. But Vanessa is just a glorified part runner and there are other characters who can do that and have more upside/utility than her. Numbers are one thing in a vacuum. In a real-life setting, however, I find Vanessa to be a disposable commodity for a team and any Jason worth his/her salt knows not to waste time trying to chase her b/c other counselors are the ones who are actually working on objectives.

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4 minutes ago, Shadesofjoe said:

As someone who has put a lot of hours in this game and considers themselves at least a halfway decent tryhard, I can't make any case for Vanessa being the end all-be all counselor. Chad? Sure. I'll buy that he's strong for a number of reasons. But Vanessa is just a glorified part runner and there are other characters who can do that and have more upside/utility than her. Numbers are one thing in a vacuum. In a real-life setting, however, I find Vanessa to be a disposable commodity for a team and any Jason worth his/her salt knows not to waste time trying to chase her b/c other counselors are the ones who are actually working on objectives.

And I do not disagree with that. Except to a point. I feel the same in terms of "real-life setting" applies to your argument itself aswell. Because "good" Jason's are still statisticly in a minority. Which tells me that the numbers aren't that far off afterall and the tier list mostly correct. Yes, even Vanessa. But that is just my opinion obviously and not a fact.

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I think if the devs (highly doubtful) decide to rework grab gameplay...it would completely rebalance the entire set of counselors.

For instance, we remove grip strength as a strength/weakness for Jasons and make all grab kills a mini game repair event that better ties in composure and strength, which would completely change the way people feel about the characters and being grabbed.

For instance

The way grabs would work in a future rebalance.

Neutral balance

1. Counselors can no longer break others free from grabs

2. Jason still needs room to perform the kill

Higher Strength Counselors

1. Would have the easiest mini repairs, much like high repair characters have now, so they are able to escape grabs much easier, if they complete the event, they break free. If they miss, they are killed UNLESS they use their pocket knife

Higher Composure Counselors

1. They wouldn't have it as easy as high strength counselors, but they would have a much slower repair event, which would allow them a better chance to escape the grabs, but still as many checks depending on their strength level.

Lower Strength Counselors

1. They have as many checks in grab as the weakest repair counselor would have. Again, if they fail, they are executed unless a pocket knife is present.

Lower Composure Counselors

1. The reverse of higher composure characters, not only do they have more checks if they have low strength, but they have faster checks if they have low composure, making their grabs VERY HARD to escape.

For instance, if the above were instituted. High Strength and High Composure would absolutely be crucial now, since all grabs are repair events now, giving the counselors the chance to escape. Whereas low composure and low strength counselors would have to be even more elusive, experts at checks or stock up on knives.

This would also make male counselors more viable and useful all around in actual grab scenarios against Jason. While making the females rely on completely avoiding Jason at all costs, unless they were great at skill checks.

Now in terms of Stealth, I think its useful, but I think the only way to make it really a top notch stat is allowing the highest stealth characters to hide in hiding spots without Jason's sense finding them in anyway. This would force Jason to destroy and search all hiding spots. Yes, the perks that surround stealth would basically become useless. You could just simplify them to one perk that gives low stealth characters a percentage chance to hide from sense.

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I know it's just an example to make a point but I kinda would hate not being able to help people that are grabbed. I feel this would be the cause of even more segregation / less teamplay. Especially on Quickplay.

I'm not the most social in games but saving other people's asses is actually the most likely reason I've formed bonds in running session with my surviving collegues and had a couple of good Privatelobby runs too.

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5 minutes ago, pRaX said:

I know it's just an example to make a point but I kinda would hate not being able to help people that are grabbed. I feel this would be the cause of even more segregation / less teamplay. Especially on Quickplay.

I'm not the most social in games but saving other people's asses is actually the most likely reason I've formed bonds in running session with my surviving collegues and had a couple of good Privatelobby runs too.

I feel like there should be some kind of bonus for the number of counselors who escape. Something to incentivize saving other people and discourage TKers.

As for the tier list, maybe you're right about there not being many good Jasons. I don't know. It just seems like this kind of data is specifically geared toward tryhards, which makes it bewildering as to why a counselor who has little utility in a tryhard setting would be ranked so highly.

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1 minute ago, Shadesofjoe said:

I feel like there should be some kind of bonus for the number of counselors who escape. Something to incentivize saving other people and discourage TKers.

As for the tier list, maybe you're right about there not being many good Jasons. I don't know. It just seems like this kind of data is specifically geared toward tryhards, which makes it bewildering as to why a counselor who has little utility in a tryhard setting would be ranked so highly.

I had the impression that it's mostly giving you an idea which playstyle, Councelor, perks etc. you're most like to get a high winrate just purely based on statistics and numbers that the game provides or had to be pulled out of it's nose by testing. Which also, at least in my mind, takes into account that truly highskilled players are a minority. Just as in any game. Especially competitive ones. Not everyone is pro-gamer material either. The fewest are.

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26 minutes ago, Shadesofjoe said:

As someone who has put a lot of hours in this game and considers themselves at least a halfway decent tryhard, I can't make any case for Vanessa being the end all-be all counselor. Chad? Sure. I'll buy that he's strong for a number of reasons. But Vanessa is just a glorified part runner and there are other characters who can do that and have more upside/utility than her. Numbers are one thing in a vacuum. In a real-life setting, however, I find Vanessa to be a disposable commodity for a team and any Jason worth his/her salt knows not to waste time trying to chase her b/c other counselors are the ones who are actually working on objectives.

Vanessa has above-average Luck (enough to put up a good fight), and she is also the fastest and most Stamina-rich counselor in the game. She has the best cross-section of useful stats out of all the counselors. This makes her very ideal for combat.

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8 minutes ago, Rydog said:

Vanessa has above-average Luck (enough to put up a good fight), and she is also the fastest and most Stamina-rich counselor in the game. She has the best cross-section of useful stats out of all the counselors. This makes her very ideal for combat.

That's assuming one places a high value on combat, which is one of many ways to play the game.

Also, a combat counselor's utility dramatically decreases when Jason refuses a straight-up fight. I rarely waste time with Vanessa when there are AJs and Deborahs out there I need to be killing. As far as group tactics go, I've rarely found that it makes a difference who stuns me when counselors are fighting together. It's the weapons themselves that dictate the stun chance, not any counselor stat. This is why I would agree with your assessment of Chad's luck being so valuable since his weapon won't break as often. But in a situation where people are trying to get a car going, you don't need infinite bat hits to get the job done. Usually 2-3 is enough. If you need more than that, you're wasting too much time fighting. This game is far more rewarding of opportunistic combat than raw combat ability.

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1 hour ago, pRaX said:

I know it's just an example to make a point but I kinda would hate not being able to help people that are grabbed. I feel this would be the cause of even more segregation / less teamplay. Especially on Quickplay.

I'm not the most social in games but saving other people's asses is actually the most likely reason I've formed bonds in running session with my surviving collegues and had a couple of good Privatelobby runs too.

True, but the trade off would be individual skill. Jason gets the grab, now its up to the person whose grabbed to escape themselves. They now have two legitimate options. Use the pocket knife or complete the mini game event, instead of being instant killed. The trade off now is Jason isn't going to let go of counselors once he has them unless they themselves do something about it. This helps make strength and composure very important to the counselors with them and the counselors without.

Now...obviously...yeah...Jason would just continue to grab, but as it is, he only has two options to kill counselors and people bitch if she slashes to death to avoid pocket knives and they bitch if he grabs. At least here, if he grabs, its up to the counselor to decide his/her own fate in the mini game. It would make shift/grab shift/stalk/grab less instant kill and more 50/50 to escape. The trade off is not nerfing Jason's grab to the point where he has to slash thick skinned counselors 45 times. In which case, once a counselor is grabbed, ONLY THEY can influence their escape.

There are other variables at play here. The fact that knives and broken windows don't do enough damage to thick skinned counselors is a huge problem since counselors can use cabins to THEIR ADVANTAGE instead of Jason using them to his. If Thick Skinned were nerfed or knives/broken windows were buffed. I'd call it even somewhat.

 

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1 hour ago, tyrant666 said:

There are other variables at play here. The fact that knives and broken windows don't do enough damage to thick skinned counselors is a huge problem since counselors can use cabins to THEIR ADVANTAGE instead of Jason using them to his. If Thick Skinned were nerfed or knives/broken windows were buffed. I'd call it even somewhat.

 

Throwing knives are the strongest and most reliable form of damage against Thick Skinned counselors.

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2 hours ago, Shadesofjoe said:

That's assuming one places a high value on combat, which is one of many ways to play the game.

Also, a combat counselor's utility dramatically decreases when Jason refuses a straight-up fight. I rarely waste time with Vanessa when there are AJs and Deborahs out there I need to be killing. As far as group tactics go, I've rarely found that it makes a difference who stuns me when counselors are fighting together. It's the weapons themselves that dictate the stun chance, not any counselor stat. This is why I would agree with your assessment of Chad's luck being so valuable since his weapon won't break as often. But in a situation where people are trying to get a car going, you don't need infinite bat hits to get the job done. Usually 2-3 is enough. If you need more than that, you're wasting too much time fighting. This game is far more rewarding of opportunistic combat than raw combat ability.

A good Jason will be challenging objectives as much as possible and not out wantonly roaming so he's going to force objective battles until the numbers are more in his favor and Rage activates. 

I don't know how you can objectively dismiss a high Stamina / Speed / Luck character like it's merely a preference thing. If you prefer playing a character because of your own valued playstyle then awesome. Rock out with AJ, or Deb, or whoever. Tier lists aren't about preference though. 

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10 minutes ago, Saboteur-6 said:

A good Jason will be challenging objectives as much as possible and not out wantonly roaming so he's going to force objective battles until the numbers are more in his favor and Rage activates. 

I don't know how you can objectively dismiss a high Stamina / Speed / Luck character like it's merely a preference thing. If you prefer playing a character because of your own valued playstyle then awesome. Rock out with AJ, or Deb, or whoever. Tier lists aren't about preference though. 

This. Unless he's terminally incompetent, Jason is going to force the issue at objectives as often as possible, and if everyone is running around cosplaying Solid Snake, nothing's getting done. It may be different with people who don't know the game well, but with players who know what they are doing, confrontation is inevitable, and you have to dominate Jason in order to get cars and phones fixed.

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12 hours ago, Saboteur-6 said:

 

Also @dandop1984, I don't know what gives you the impression that the guides aren't about trying to have zero Counselor deaths and completing objectives as quick as possible. Please elaborate on why Composure has benefit over Stamina or Speed pre-rage? 

Don't be discouraged. If you like to play Jenny then by all means play Jenny. However, to dismiss the data findings about Composure because it conflicts with how you want to play the game just seems like your in your feelings about it a bit and are still muddying the difference between attempts at objective, data based research informed opinions, over opinions rooted solely in anecdotal experiences or personal preference. A tier list isn't a popularity "my favorite counselor" list. 

 

Because Composure keeps the councilors fear down, so you can avoid Jason and complete objectives, or work together as a team.

Speed and stamina stats are good, but most cabins are well placed apart, so even low stamina characters can hop between cabins with out the need of high speed or stamina, so I feel they aren't as important as it's listed in the tier list.

I find the first 10 minutes of the match to the most important to complete objectives before Jason hits Rage, if nothing is done, and Jason rages most games end poorly for the Councilors.

To call the composure stat useless because it has little benefit after rage seems wrong. Especially when it's very important in the first 10 minutes of the game, and let's be honest most games don't last more than 15 minutes. It is kinda a race against the clock as Jason gets more powers, and rage is very OP.

plus Composure still keeps your councilor from stumbling and screaming when Jason is near by even after Rage.

 

I appreciate the effort, but I find many flaws in the play style that list seems to be encouraging.

 

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7 hours ago, Rydog said:

This. Unless he's terminally incompetent, Jason is going to force the issue at objectives as often as possible, and if everyone is running around cosplaying Solid Snake, nothing's getting done. It may be different with people who don't know the game well, but with players who know what they are doing, confrontation is inevitable, and you have to dominate Jason in order to get cars and phones fixed.

This. It's funny though how often you get flamed by salty fucks for doing what you are imho supposed to do as Jason. There is obviously are reason why the devs decided to show you all the objectives. You are supposed to trap and defend the shit out of them if you want to secure a total victory.

That also means doing preperations like destroying every window and door beforehand early in the game that are close or connected to objectives. You'll have an way easier time later on in the ongoing match and your opponent a harder one. If you're facing a competent Jason, I can't think of a better Counselor than one like Vanessa to even have a chance.

A rework of the stats or just making them work in the first place is needed ofc to prevent such a stale Meta. But as long as that doesn't happen... you can't blame the competitive people for using what they got to their best of their knowledge and abilities.

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11 hours ago, Rydog said:

Throwing knives are the strongest and most reliable form of damage against Thick Skinned counselors.

Have you collected data for how many knives can spawn on a map?

It certainly doesn't feel like enough of them spawn to make an impact for Jason. Part 6 gets a slight buff because of how many he starts with, but so what.

And it still doesn't change cabins being something they have to their advantage, even if windows are broken.

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10 hours ago, Rydog said:

This. Unless he's terminally incompetent, Jason is going to force the issue at objectives as often as possible, and if everyone is running around cosplaying Solid Snake, nothing's getting done. It may be different with people who don't know the game well, but with players who know what they are doing, confrontation is inevitable, and you have to dominate Jason in order to get cars and phones fixed.

And yet I see two AJs, an Adam, and a Kenny do just as well fighting for objectives than any of the other so-called "best" combat counselors. The stun chance for a weapon is inherent to the weapon and not the counselor. Any counselor can fight well so long as you understand how the combat mechanics work. All you need are a couple well-timed stuns to get an objective going. 

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1 hour ago, tyrant666 said:

Have you collected data for how many knives can spawn on a map?

It certainly doesn't feel like enough of them spawn to make an impact for Jason. Part 6 gets a slight buff because of how many he starts with, but so what.

And it still doesn't change cabins being something they have to their advantage, even if windows are broken.

I think I've seen knives spawn right infront of me and I picked them up quite often twice on the same spot in a single match too. Which lead me to believe that they spawn indefinetly over time. Got no hard data though so, take it with a grain of salt.

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2 hours ago, tyrant666 said:

Have you collected data for how many knives can spawn on a map?

It certainly doesn't feel like enough of them spawn to make an impact for Jason. Part 6 gets a slight buff because of how many he starts with, but so what.

And it still doesn't change cabins being something they have to their advantage, even if windows are broken.

I currently believe there is a semi-random population of knife + firecracker spawns on each map. Like, let's say map X can have 6 total of these two items, distributed in a random way (2 knives and 4 firecrackers). I need to do more canvassing of maps to understand this more. This could be completely off-base, because it's still anecdotal until I really look hard at it.

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On 30/06/2017 at 10:17 AM, Rydog said:

Hello! You may know me as Geekboxing on the Friday the 13th subreddit, or Rydog on Steam. I've spent the last several weeks researching the stats and abilities of counselors and Jason, to help the community with theorycrafting and learning more about the game. I have created a keyed guide to the game's maps, an extensive counselor stat guide, a Jason ability guide, and a data-driven counselor tier list (with a similar one soon to follow for Jason). I am currently in the process of migrating these guides to Steam, and I would love for you to check them out. I will happily migrate them here as well, if that is useful/not frowned upon by mods.

Also: Hello to Wes and my old friends at Gun. I am glad to see that this game is doing well! Clearly, I am very taken with it.

For your information I've already started to use chad a bit more but I think Tiffany maybe should have been third 

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1 minute ago, Moe9999633 said:

For your information I've already started to use chad a bit more but I think Tiffany maybe should have been third 

For what reason? I replied to you in another thread about Tiffany, but I would love to hear a detailed analysis of why Tiffany is worth picking. Bear in mind the things I am likely to respond with: Her Luck is lacking compared to characters like Chad and Vanessa, she has no use as a utility character because her Repair is low, Speed is hugely important (far more than just straight Stamina) and she again pales in comparison to Chad/Vanessa, and Stealth is a wasted stat with no value.

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7 minutes ago, Rydog said:

For what reason? I replied to you in another thread about Tiffany, but I would love to hear a detailed analysis of why Tiffany is worth picking. Bear in mind the things I am likely to respond with: Her Luck is lacking compared to characters like Chad and Vanessa, she has no use as a utility character because her Repair is low, Speed is hugely important (far more than just straight Stamina) and she again pales in comparison to Chad/Vanessa, and Stealth is a wasted stat with no value.

Ok when I play F13 and I'm Jason literally hate Tiffany because there always last and Vanessa and Chad always first to die even when I'm not Jason I played with this whole Vanessa and Chad team and I was Tiffany they all died in like the first 3 minutes and I repaired the boat left al by myself and they where calling me hacked and I was like I'm literally to stupid to be able to hack and I said I can't even hack a phone or something easy and they said your counsellor is stupid how did you repair the boat and I said the Jason is only a level 5 when failed he most likely went to the car and kicked me out of the lobby and sometimes as Tiffany I just like to hide the whole match and it works and I most of the time save Chad and deb and Eric because they can't run (but u like playing as Chad but not a big fan of Vanessa I tried playing as her for like five rounds and died first in all of the matchs

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Ok here we go. I'm providing video examples of what I'm talking about when I say combat is unavoidable against a competent Jason. This also illustrates something that I wish people still in their feelings about a tier list would realize : Low tier does NOT mean unviable. I play the lowest tier Jason (Part 7) and still enjoy the game and do well enough with him. Doesn't mean that I don't acknowledge that comparatively, he's at a disadvantage when compared to other Jasons. 

Episode 9 - This is what I mean about Jason defending objective points and forcing combat. I still make mistakes (4 or so whiffed shift+grabs) and come across about 4 pocket knives. 

 

Episode 8 - Another example illustrating that objectives will become warzones. It's inevitable. I make some crucial mistakes here in using the water instead of Morph (wasting time), failing to block properly with Combat Stance, and misplacing a key Morph towards the end. 

Anyone can contest objectives true but low Luck means weapons will break against a defending Jason fighting competently. I sort of fuck that up though in this match but that's on me as the Jason player. 

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