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Mr. Blonde

The whole "Jason is OP" and "Nerf Shift Grab" Dilemma is False...

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*Reposting this here because I think other one was in wrong section

First, allow me to say that I've been hearing this not only on this forum, but many message boards and it is most definitely the biggest elephant in the room regarding strict game-play concerns. Getting right into the topic; SHIFT-GRAB INTO INSTANT KILLS IS NOT OVERPOWERED. It may seem like an overpowered cheesy tactic at first, but over time in the context of the actual game through higher levels later down the road, it is actually needed to keep Jason "competitive".

 

I cannot fathom with how many players come to the conclusion of "wow, this tactic is so unfair and should be removed" by playing random pub games online or a night with friends. Have any of you actually ever played against an entire team of COMPETITIVE counselors that know what they're doing and how to play the game at a very serious level? It is very difficult to stop a team from surviving in this game and over the course of getting to play against MANY competitive players together (some very good old school team-orientated survival competitive players over the years from LEFT 4 DEAD, DBD, etc.) Once you are put to the test against SEVEN OTHER competitive survivors constantly and grinding the games in and out, you realize some of the flaws and disadvantages that a team can pick apart and abuse on the Jason user. And NO, I am not talking about searching in public games randomly until you find a team of people using "mics", it's much deeper and more complicated than that.

 

 

Let's quickly breakdown why shift-grab deaths are needed:

1.) It's Jason's best and only way to successfully kill a counselor more often than not (unless they have a pocket knife, which completely negates this option) wasting 2-3 minutes trying to kill a counselor juking, stalling, or receiving your full attention is VERY detrimental to the overall pace of the game and most often must be abandoned to multi-task other areas and ensure openings do not happen. Keep in mind you only have 20 minutes to kill each survivor, so you can't possibly spend close to three minutes trying to chase, attack, and kill each one.

 

2.) Counselors out run and maneuver Jason throughout most of the game which would make him almost completely useless if it were not for skills such as morphing, shifting, and throwing knives. Map morphing and throwing knives while they are indeed "options", are in no way reliable or comparable to the viability of shift. A counselor that knows what they're doing is going to be zig-zagging, feinting, cross-path juking, bluffing their movements, 180 quick turns, etc. which Jason it is not as simple as "just shift grab and kill", you must PREDICT the counselors movements ahead of time and make a BALLSY read which forces you to COMMIT. Yes, it is easy to grab predictable players in public search that don't have many hours put into the game and are just playing on their Friday night off for some fun. It is entirely different to successfully grab and read movements from a competitive player that knows the map and generated random layouts in and out.

 

3.) Against competitive groups playing together the tactical stalling and defense trying to make an open can be severely difficult and time consuming which is why banking for a shift-grab kill every time it's off cooldown is sometimes the ONLY offense opportunity you can get. If they have weapons, flare guns, shotgun, firecrackers, etc. this is all going to be very time consuming and force each of your attempts in a manner of "make it count". Let me ask you, how on Earth would you (as Jason) even attempt to kill a team of counselors together with melee items such as bats, machete, etc. without shift grab? You are most likely going to be eating a LOT of stuns and wasting a LOT of valuable time in which other counselors can heavily take advantage of the scenario. It is not fun and very demoralizing. Especially in the way that this scenario is quite common and easy to recreate at high levels.

 

4.) You must multi-task the map and always be aware of other counselors and their options, agendas, and what their plans may be. ALWAYS have to keep the house with the phone section trapped, and be knowledgeable as a few seconds off your focus shift could mean a VERY bad and early game with a call getting through. This means as Jason the most optimal way to play is with background noise boosted so you can hear if phone is tethered, picked up, car engine starting, etc. BY THE WAY (IMPORTANT) - The negative penalties of 'sound ques' of counselors messing up with gas, battery, etc. barely does not happen at a high and competitive level as counselors with high repair are almost ALWAYS in charge of performing these duties and have cover to back them.

 

5.) PERKS, MY GOD PERKS! If there's something you want to complain that is actually "OP", well here you go! Before you read this section KEEP IN MIND that everything prior to this and strictly based on if "Jason shift grab is OP" or not has been conducted and tested WITHOUT THE USE OF PERKS! We attempted to play some "high level competitive" F13 using some of the best perks... and well let's just say the games did not end up being very competitive and was more of a headache and disaster for the Jason player way too many times than not. Having seven competitive players start with Epic Perk Double healing and First Aid sprays is COMPLETELY BROKEN and made if you did not instant kill a counselor with shift-grab, you had virtually no chance to overall damage, cripple, and kill a counselor. Total imbalance with perks which I'm sure that is how the developers intended to be and not directly affect the core balance of the game. I'm sure it can get much worse with combination of perks amongst a team of seven counselors.

 

 

 

Look, we understand F13 is not meant to be played with eight competitive players playing as if it were an actual tournament or the finals play offs to something similar to a superbowl. We know that F13 is mainly made for public game searching, having fun with strangers, and seeing hectic things go afloat that Jason takes advantage of. In public games as counselors you have to worry about team killers (friendly fire), people not knowing the map, players with not much experience / hours, terrible decision makers, lone wolves, language barriers etc. etc. These are all natural pub problems that do NOT EXIST in a competitive environment of a full team of players playing F13 together which is probably what makes it so excruciatingly hard for Jason.

 

Here's the catch, we believe a team of counselors playing properly gives Jason a MUCH more difficult time with the ratio being they TOO OFTEN survive with a few being shift-grabbed killed (if it happens). We think F13 is a VERY FUN and enjoyable game we just wish it was a bit more balanced for the higher level players who like to play games very seriously and competitively. Would some smaller buffs to Jason and some fixes to things we think this game will be AMAZING at a competitive level.

Jason could use some buffs or reworks and I hope if any developers read this they may think of possible ideas to implement or something they like here:

 

JASON BUFFS FOR FUTURE:

1.) THROWING KNIVES - They're good for what they are but main downside is sometimes it can be too time consuming to pick one up unless you're just waiting for morph to appear back and there happens to be a knife next to your current location. They also do not have any headshot advantages and sometimes it takes three or more knife tosses to have a counselor enter "cripple" state.

- Having a bit less of a collecting animation and recovery. (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

- Inflicting more damage. Two throwing knives to the chest area seems reasonable to always put a counselor in cripple state. (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

- Add headshot capabilities with throwing knives that will either instant kill a counselor or immediately put them in the cripple state if headshot. (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

 

2.) TRAPS 

- Ability to recover or pick up traps (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

- Ability to place down a "fake" bait trap with just leaves. These could be set to expire after 30 seconds to a minute or so to prevent abuse. Max of two "fake" traps out at a time. (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

- Ability to place traps on the boat dock

 

3.) TIMER - Add lobby option or ability to increase timer from 20 minutes to 25 minutes or 30 minutes for players that want a bit of a challenge (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason) 

 

4.)  "Ki, ki ki, ma, ma, ma" - Give Jason a new ability to create fog on the map that will make the counselors mini-map on screen freeze temporarily or for him to select an "area" on the map to engulf in fog and the "Ki, ki, ki, ma, ma, ma" sound queus. This would be used as a bait to alert or potential scare / play mindgames with a group of survivors at a part of the map to make them THINK you're there and maybe force them to play defensively WHILE you deal with the current group or have them flee their original plans. In the fog area Jason sounds alert music would be disabled so this would make it ambiguous. Right now, there is NO way to effectively deal with two groups of survivors on a mission, you have to pick and choose your poison and let one of them get away with doing something. This would be a great alternative to add an extra layer or mindgames that counselors would have to think about and buy the bluff or not.

 

That is all for now. Thanks for reading. Back to playing more F13...

 

 

If any of you are curious or believe "Jason shift-grab is OP and must go", I invite you to PLEASE COME PLAY with my group and we will guarantee after some games you will start to see it is very different when you're up against a group of competitive counselors and not random casuals in public search strictly playing to have some fun. None of us run any perks while playing, we all play the game with vanilla counselor stats and defaults to not skew balance and keep it on even and consistent playing fields. We all play on Steam (PC) and we have a serious group of over ten competitive players pouring hours and hours into this game each day grinding together.

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I just want to say one thing. You argue about how you need shift grab with competitive players because they make it too hard for Jason to kill. I agree with that, but I could say the same that shift grab makes it too hard for average/pubs to do literally anything unless they have a knife. But if they have a knife, you just have to wait 5-10 seconds to just shift grab them again. On top of that, there's a faaaarr higher number of pub players than there is competitive players. Saying this negates/neutralizes basically half of what you typed, maybe more. I don't want to read the whole thing again to find out. All counselor supplies and defenses are limited, so really, all you have to do is chase them until they're out of stamina, attack them until they're out of health kits and weapons, grab them maybe once per councilor, probably less, until they don't have knives. I would take up your challenge but 1.im not a Jason player and 2. I'm not on PC

Edit: I'd also like to add that the hit detection is complete garbage. I've been touching Jason's ass and hit him 2-3 times to save my grabbed teammate but nothing happens. This makes it so much more difficult to stop Jason from killing. That and all of the I-frames he has for everything he does

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3 hours ago, JasongrabOP said:

 All counselor supplies and defenses are limited, so really, all you have to do is chase them until they're out of stamina, attack them until they're out of health kits and weapons, grab them maybe once per councilor, probably less, until they don't have knives.

Congrats you figured out  the very essence of this game, which is also the essence of a slashermovie.

If you have a problem with that, its really not the game for you.

Its not a fair one on one with Jason for each counselor and its not supposed to be that way.

Sure thatmay lead to you dying early in the game sometimes, but how many times  were you able to live long and/or maybe escape because Jason was chasing the other counselors most of the time?

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This is my opinion on the deal with traps. Jason should start out with double the amount of traps he normally does right now and cannot spam a whole bunch in one spot. Counselors should also be able to disarm the traps using the repair minigame. The only way to beat a trap even though you know its there but cant get around it is basically to step in it because using a knife to disarm it is just too rare of an occurence to come upon to be a viable strategy to beating a trap and on top of that it breaks the knife.

I want to push a counter argument and say that if shift grab is Jasons only means of killing other players that is a problem in itself and this should not be his only means of killing other players whether it is due to the player or the game being at fault. So my suggestion is to remove shift grab but replace it with something else that is effective. For example what they could do is remove the shift grab but enhance the stalk ability by increasing Jasons speed during stalk. This is just one example and I am not saying this is the best solution because I dont think it is but that is one example. The point I am trying to make is that the shift grab I think is just lame and almost feels like a glitch due to Jason appearing out of nowhere with no animation or anything backing it up, that it needs to be improved or changed in some way.

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On June 7, 2017 at 4:04 AM, AngronKharn said:

Congrats you figured out  the very essence of this game, which is also the essence of a slashermovie.

If you have a problem with that, its really not the game for you.

Its not a fair one on one with Jason for each counselor and its not supposed to be that way.

Sure thatmay lead to you dying early in the game sometimes, but how many times  were you able to live long and/or maybe escape because Jason was chasing the other counselors most of the time?

I didn't say that was a problem, I was giving advice

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An idea just came to me: What if the Shift power had a variable speed? Say two speeds, slow and fast, toggled just like toggling walk and run/fast walk, with the Shift key incidentally(on keyboard). It would be something neat to add to Jason's arsenal once proper alterations to the Shift and/or grab mechanic gets sorted out.

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This is the worst idea pitch for this game I've ever read... the conditions for the above ideas are just super finite which almost nulls and voids the entire topic. Also the game isn't competitive... so stop thinking it's supposed to be balanced that way...

The chances of you coming across a game of 7 counselors on the same team and you being the odd man out is less than 1%... The only situation I can think of this even remotely happening is if you play a private match with 7 other friends.. which begs the question, if you're playing in private matches, why are you being competitive? Try hard's need to just go get a life and stop the try harding... it's pathetic and no one cares about your e-peen... let's get that out of the way right now.

The situation you speak of in question will never happen on a whim while joining a random pub game... and if you're playing with buddies in a group that large, you guys aren't going to be friends much longer if you gang up on 1 guy and just stun lock the ever living shit out of him... that's why this game is best played in small groups of 3 or 4 while joining 4 other randoms. The game right now is indeed balanced for a small group of above average players in a game... but for random solo queue's it's a massacre.

Sometimes in random solo queues you get a group of 2 or 3 competent counselors that know how to escape quickly so it ensures your victory as a solo player, but for the most part, this doesn't happen often. Instead you get complete noobs and Jason runs train on everyone... even the bad Jasons, and why? Because of shift + grab...

Shift grabbing doesn't give good solo counselors a fighting chance in hell... If you don't get lucky with your positioning and drawer spawns, you're getting killed quick in a pub match regardless of how skilled you think you are... most pub Jasons tunnel the first person they see and stick on them like a fly on shit until they die... even luring Jason to other counselors won't work sometimes... Jason wants you dead and that's just the way it's going... and shift grab helps his cause immensely.

The shift + grab needs to be nerfed, definitely... it needs a 2 second lock on it after shifting. I don't care about him grabbing players while they're in combat range, that just means he's finally hunted you down long enough and deserves the grab kill... but to shift from half way across the map and land right on top of a counselor is complete bullshit.

As Jason in a pub game I wipe out an entire group of counselors in less than 10 minutes by simply doing just that... shift grabbing. It makes for a boring experience and it feels cheap but it's the quickest way to rack up as much XP as possible in a short amount of time... I mean why would I want to methodically chase down counselors when such a shit mechanic exists to exploit the game? It would make no sense... I vote they just lock his grab after a shift so it forces Jason players to just shift + attack... so they can only weaken the counselor using such a shit tactic... not instant gib them from the 3 minute mark in a match.

Jason is an XP farming tool after all... on average counselors only get around 900 XP points per match... sometimes you get 700, other times a bit over 1000.... Jason on the other hand averages around 1500 XP... I've had as low as 1300 and as high as 1750 with him... why make it that much easier for him to earn XP when it's already a joke playing as him? I say let the Jason players sweat a little bit and earn the kills... not just warp, grab and instant victory.

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A 2 second delay? That's too much. You do that and shift becomes completely useless. It will basically be a shorter range map teleport. 

And why are you getting shift grabbed so much in the first place? Are you running in a straight line? Try zig zagging or circle back so he shifts past you. The only time I get shift grabbed is when my counselor is out of stamina, hurt, or just by complete surprise. The latter being even more rare as Jason would need to have stalk on and me outside not having spotted him visually.

Honestly though, I'm good either way... nerf or no nerf. But if nerf, not a crazy 2 second delay. Maybe a half or quarter of a second. But honestly, it would make the ring-around-the-rosie moments impossible. You know, when a counselor runs around an object like a car. And even with shift grab, it's near impossible to catch them in that situation.

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Game is working as intended. Maybe this game isnt for you if you whine so much about a supernatural killer having the upper hand in a 1v1. LTP as a team or get better solo and pray that luck is on your side. End of discussion 

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2 hours ago, Luckystrike2778 said:

Game is working as intended. Maybe this game isnt for you if you whine so much about a supernatural killer having the upper hand in a 1v1. LTP as a team or get better solo and pray that luck is on your side. End of discussion 

The way it was intended is bad game design.  Tweaking grabs/shift wouldn't make counselors have the upper hand.  Counselors like Tiffany encourage solo, and you can't always rely on luck or trying to be unpredictable.  Not end of discussion.  

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4 hours ago, Luckystrike2778 said:

L2P then LOL

Please don't just say 'git gud,' and be done with it.  It's not really contributing to the thread or helping anyone here with the discussion.  

Edit:  If it were a problem of lacking skill or being bad then your comment might have been understandable.  

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I'm just glad someone else agrees with me that his grab/shift grab is his best tool against a group of armed counselors. Been arguing with a couple people on here saying that I'm just a grabby Jason and that meleeing them is the best option. They even said coming across a group of counselors in one spot is rare. Duuuh, like 4 counselors never gather around a fixed car right? And yea, I should totally melee rather than grab so I'm way more vulnerable to stuns.

And people, don't take his "competitive" comment as people trying hard. All that means is people are actually working together and coordinating their strategies against Jason. You know, how it is in the movies? Survivors working together? I'm of the opinion that people who demand absurd nerfs to Jason's moves are tryhards. You guys want it to be super easy to escape in a game based on a movie where at most, 2 people survive. 

All the times I've been Jason, on average, 2 people escape. That's right in theme with the source material. Now, the biggest problem I see is how fast some people die in this game. So yea, I do honestly believe this game needs a lot of tweaking. Nothing sucks more than having Jason spawn by you within the first minute of the game and having no way to escape his grab. The grab break as it is now is completely useless. The speed of a counselor's melee is too damn slow. It needs to be sped up so it can give you a fighting chance to knock Jason over the head before a grab.

Also, I say this a lot... people really need to start playing this game with the mindset that they aren't going to survive. The difficulty of surviving makes a successful escape very rewarding. And it stays with the theme of Friday The 13th. I really don't want to see this game devolve into 4 counselors escaping on average. 

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I can tell you even a 4 man team can make your life as Jason hell. I was playing yesterday and within 5 minutes they got the sweater, cops and Tommy called and started making plans. When 4 survivors gang up on you and hit you properly, you can get into an infinite loop of being stunned, especially when you play as the less stun resistant Jasons.

I outsmarted them and they did not a manage to kill me but I wasted so much energy on killing 4 people only to hear them yell at me and call me some pretty offensive names.

If you know how to play the game properly, Jason is in no way OP. Yes, shift+grab+kill will happen and yes, it is frustrating, especially when it happens at the start of the match. However consider changing your tactics... try to play the game differently.

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I agree with the OP.

Go ahead and nerf shift grab and watch as undead Jasons collect dust, because they would iterally be useless in catching any counselor, even slow ones. The human Jasons can't catch the faster counselors as they just have to stand still for about 2-3 seconds with a good perk and off they go again.

Someone had the idea of making shift grabs or any grabs a mini game event before Jason can execute his kills. The smarter counselors would have the better chance to escape his grab and the dumber ones wouldn't. Though for purposes of maintaining the strengths/weaknesses of the counselors. I would just assume give everyone the same chance to escape and discard the stats.

HOWEVER, being able to hit Jason and free counselors from the grab would be something that would have to go...otherwise Jason would not kill anyone with grab anymore...ever ever. Unless they were alone.

I've also seen just as many bitch when he slashes people to death, because they WANT the get out of jail free pocket knife stun when he grabs because it will allow them to run away if they are by themselves. The problem with the slash is with the right perks, Jason has to slash forever to even make them limp and then a first aid heals them in a second.

Now lets talk about Combat. Jason can much more handle attacks from this mode. The only problem is the trade off is his swing is MUCH SLOWER than non combat mode, with the trade off being he can be stunned much more easily. I'd almost like this reversed or made the same. He's slower outside of combat, but FASTER in combat or its kept the same speed.

Lets talk about knives ,traps and windows. Traps should be allowed to be disabled without the use of pocket knives and with the use of a mini game event. I agree with that. I wouldn't be opposed to removing traps as weaknesses for some of the Jasons that currently have it too. Part 2 Jason can have the most, but the rest should have 5 and that's it. They shouldn't be stackable, but they should always cause limps, especially if all you have to do is mini game that shit. You fail and you limp.

Knives should instant limp counselors...why give Jason a limited, long range weapon besides shift grab if they aren't even going to be useful against the right perk? Knives should be rewarded with instant limps and I agree that a headshot mechanic should be rare, but it should allow instant kills if done right.

Windows as they are now...do absolutely nothing when broken to the counselors with the right perks or a good amount of first aid. There is almost no downside to going through broken glass windows. If counselors are going to be continued to be allowed to have perks that allow them to dodge limp damage. Then broken windows should be a real threat. They are going through glass afterall, one hit of the artery and they would be dead in seconds. Make them think twice about going through broken windows, depending on the first aid used.

I'd like to keep the game called FRIDAY THE 13TH...

Lets not turn it into Not 13 WAYS TO TROLL JASON

 

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Do not repost things. if a topic needs to be moved it will. 

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