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Mr. Blonde

The whole "Jason is OP" and "Nerf Shift Grab" Dilemma is False...

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First, allow me to say that I've been hearing this not only on this forum, but many message boards and it is most definitely the biggest elephant in the room regarding strict game-play concerns. Getting right into the topic; SHIFT-GRAB INTO INSTANT KILLS IS NOT OVERPOWERED. It may seem like an overpowered cheesy tactic at first, but over time in the context of the actual game through higher levels later down the road, it is actually needed to keep Jason "competitive".

 

I cannot fathom with how many players come to the conclusion of "wow, this tactic is so unfair and should be removed" by playing random pub games online or a night with friends. Have any of you actually ever played against an entire team of COMPETITIVE counselors that know what they're doing and how to play the game at a very serious level? It is very difficult to stop a team from surviving in this game and over the course of getting to play against MANY competitive players together (some very good old school team-orientated survival competitive players over the years from LEFT 4 DEAD, DBD, etc.) Once you are put to the test against SEVEN OTHER competitive survivors constantly and grinding the games in and out, you realize some of the flaws and disadvantages that a team can pick apart and abuse on the Jason user. And NO, I am not talking about searching in public games randomly until you find a team of people using "mics", it's much deeper and more complicated than that.

 

 

Let's quickly breakdown why shift-grab deaths are needed:

1.) It's Jason's best and only way to successfully kill a counselor more often than not (unless they have a pocket knife, which completely negates this option) wasting 2-3 minutes trying to kill a counselor juking, stalling, or receiving your full attention is VERY detrimental to the overall pace of the game and most often must be abandoned to multi-task other areas and ensure openings do not happen. Keep in mind you only have 20 minutes to kill each survivor, so you can't possibly spend close to three minutes trying to chase, attack, and kill each one.

 

2.) Counselors out run and maneuver Jason throughout most of the game which would make him almost completely useless if it were not for skills such as morphing, shifting, and throwing knives. Map morphing and throwing knives while they are indeed "options", are in no way reliable or comparable to the viability of shift. A counselor that knows what they're doing is going to be zig-zagging, feinting, cross-path juking, bluffing their movements, 180 quick turns, etc. which Jason it is not as simple as "just shift grab and kill", you must PREDICT the counselors movements ahead of time and make a BALLSY read which forces you to COMMIT. Yes, it is easy to grab predictable players in public search that don't have many hours put into the game and are just playing on their Friday night off for some fun. It is entirely different to successfully grab and read movements from a competitive player that knows the map and generated random layouts in and out.

 

3.) Against competitive groups playing together the tactical stalling and defense trying to make an open can be severely difficult and time consuming which is why banking for a shift-grab kill every time it's off cooldown is sometimes the ONLY offense opportunity you can get. If they have weapons, flare guns, shotgun, firecrackers, etc. this is all going to be very time consuming and force each of your attempts in a manner of "make it count". Let me ask you, how on Earth would you (as Jason) even attempt to kill a team of counselors together with melee items such as bats, machete, etc. without shift grab? You are most likely going to be eating a LOT of stuns and wasting a LOT of valuable time in which other counselors can heavily take advantage of the scenario. It is not fun and very demoralizing. Especially in the way that this scenario is quite common and easy to recreate at high levels.

 

4.) You must multi-task the map and always be aware of other counselors and their options, agendas, and what their plans may be. ALWAYS have to keep the house with the phone section trapped, and be knowledgeable as a few seconds off your focus shift could mean a VERY bad and early game with a call getting through. This means as Jason the most optimal way to play is with background noise boosted so you can hear if phone is tethered, picked up, car engine starting, etc. BY THE WAY (IMPORTANT) - The negative penalties of 'sound ques' of counselors messing up with gas, battery, etc. barely does not happen at a high and competitive level as counselors with high repair are almost ALWAYS in charge of performing these duties and have cover to back them.

 

5.) PERKS, MY GOD PERKS! If there's something you want to complain that is actually "OP", well here you go! Before you read this section KEEP IN MIND that everything prior to this and strictly based on if "Jason shift grab is OP" or not has been conducted and tested WITHOUT THE USE OF PERKS! We attempted to play some "high level competitive" F13 using some of the best perks... and well let's just say the games did not end up being very competitive and was more of a headache and disaster for the Jason player way too many times than not. Having seven competitive players start with Epic Perk Double healing and First Aid sprays is COMPLETELY BROKEN and made if you did not instant kill a counselor with shift-grab, you had virtually no chance to overall damage, cripple, and kill a counselor. Total imbalance with perks which I'm sure that is how the developers intended to be and not directly affect the core balance of the game. I'm sure it can get much worse with combination of perks amongst a team of seven counselors.

 

 

 

Look, we understand F13 is not meant to be played with eight competitive players playing as if it were an actual tournament or the finals play offs to something similar to a superbowl. We know that F13 is mainly made for public game searching, having fun with strangers, and seeing hectic things go afloat that Jason takes advantage of. In public games as counselors you have to worry about team killers (friendly fire), people not knowing the map, players with not much experience / hours, terrible decision makers, lone wolves, language barriers etc. etc. These are all natural pub problems that do NOT EXIST in a competitive environment of a full team of players playing F13 together which is probably what makes it so excruciatingly hard for Jason.

 

Here's the catch, we believe a team of counselors playing properly gives Jason a MUCH more difficult time with the ratio being they TOO OFTEN survive with a few being shift-grabbed killed (if it happens). We think F13 is a VERY FUN and enjoyable game we just wish it was a bit more balanced for the higher level players who like to play games very seriously and competitively. Would some smaller buffs to Jason and some fixes to things we think this game will be AMAZING at a competitive level.

Jason could use some buffs or reworks and I hope if any developers read this they may think of possible ideas to implement or something they like here:

 

JASON BUFFS FOR FUTURE:

1.) THROWING KNIVES - They're good for what they are but main downside is sometimes it can be too time consuming to pick one up unless you're just waiting for morph to appear back and there happens to be a knife next to your current location. They also do not have any headshot advantages and sometimes it takes three or more knife tosses to have a counselor enter "cripple" state.

- Having a bit less of a collecting animation and recovery. (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

- Inflicting more damage. Two throwing knives to the chest area seems reasonable to always put a counselor in cripple state. (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

- Add headshot capabilities with throwing knives that will either instant kill a counselor or immediately put them in the cripple state if headshot. (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

 

2.) TRAPS 

- Ability to recover or pick up traps (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

- Ability to place down a "fake" bait trap with just leaves. These could be set to expire after 30 seconds to a minute or so to prevent abuse. Max of two "fake" traps out at a time. (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

- Ability to place traps on the boat dock

 

3.) TIMER - Add lobby option or ability to increase timer from 20 minutes to 25 minutes or 30 minutes for players that want a bit of a challenge (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason) 

 

4.)  "Ki, ki ki, ma, ma, ma" - Give Jason a new ability to create fog on the map that will make the counselors mini-map on screen freeze temporarily or for him to select an "area" on the map to engulf in fog and the "Ki, ki, ki, ma, ma, ma" sound queus. This would be used as a bait to alert or potential scare / play mindgames with a group of survivors at a part of the map to make them THINK you're there and maybe force them to play defensively WHILE you deal with the current group or have them flee their original plans. In the fog area Jason sounds alert music would be disabled so this would make it ambiguous. Right now, there is NO way to effectively deal with two groups of survivors on a mission, you have to pick and choose your poison and let one of them get away with doing something. This would be a great alternative to add an extra layer or mindgames that counselors would have to think about and buy the bluff or not.

 

That is all for now. Thanks for reading. Back to playing more F13...

 

 

If any of you are curious or believe "Jason shift-grab is OP and must go", I invite you to PLEASE COME PLAY with my group and we will guarantee after some games you will start to see it is very different when you're up against a group of competitive counselors and not random casuals in public search strictly playing to have some fun. None of us run any perks while playing, we all play the game with vanilla counselor stats and defaults to not skew balance and keep it on even and consistent playing fields. We all play on Steam (PC) and we have a serious group of over ten competitive players pouring hours and hours into this game each day grinding together.

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Excellent post, and I agree completely. Playing as Jason against a bunch of inexperienced or non-communicative players versus playing as Jason against a bunch of seasoned players utilizing teamwork really does severely swing the pendulum from overpowered to underpowered.

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I agree with your post. Balance is a fine thing that needs to be tweaked to be fun for casual pubs in order for the game to be successful in the first place, but for the longevity of the game it needs to be balanced for the hardcore teams who always play together, and I don't doubt that Jason can seriously struggle against a consistent team with patterns, routines, strategies, and mics.

 

Hypothetical question: if shift-grab were nerfed in favor of something less "cheesy," what would you like to see buffed or what would you like to see it replaced with? I like your fog idea. Does DBD have the right idea with having Jason speed up the longer he chases someone? What if stun durations on Jason were greatly reduced? What if counselor stumbling was drastically increased after Jason shifts and he gained a very brief movement speed bonus?

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THIS POST IS AWESOME.

The other night I played as Jason against a group who totally knew what they were doing (keep in mind I cannot do the shift/grab move to save my life...gotta practice it in a private match with a friend), but anyway... 

I only killed ONE of them, and that was in the last three minutes of the match. Quite frustrating. Running around, shifting, teleporting, breaking windows, chasing people around in circles as they ran around cars or tables, grabbing one only to get a knife in the neck...and on and on.

It's what made me change my spawn preference to the counsellors. 

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The abilities with the most depth allow Jason to play tricks on the counselors. All metagames of games are headgames of will they wont they. So the worst thing that can happen is for games to become predictable.

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It's not overpowered - it's simply cheesy and very bad feeling and is the consequence of an unfinished combat / grabbing system.

 

You are providing a false dichotomy just as much as they are. The grab system doesn't need to be working this poorly for Jason to be good - Jason needs other improvements so that grab is not the literal be-all end-all of his gameplay. If you start playing with higher level players you will find that shift+grab, bad netcode grabs, and "wiggle" grabs (where jason moves his mouse a bit to increase the grab radius) as well as reaction grabbing people who melee you is essentially the only real ways to kill people. Melee is currently terrible - it roots him in place and if you've ever tried to shift+melee you'll find its not nearly as responsive as shift+grab. This is because melee has a set "attack arc" that is decided the moment you click the button, as opposed to grab which has multiple active frames.

 

Pocket knives are a poor bandaid for this situation as well - they feel bad for both counselors and Jason. For counselors, they're binary. Either you have one and you can get out of some of these random grabs or grabs you literally cannot avoid (we're assuming  skilled players), or you do not have one and you will be caught and killed if you have no support yet. For Jason, if a counselor has one you're just shit out of luck because of how bad melee'ing is. Throwing knives are a decent solution to the stopgap, but are inconvenient due to how long it takes to grab if you're already stalking someone, or if you're just having issues finding any. But again, all of this stuff is simply covering up the fact that Jason's melee attacks are bad and combat system on him has only a couple niche uses due to grab allowing him to ignore counselor attacks.

 

Overall there's just not much give and take with a fight - most confrontations between good players play out in specific ways:  either the counselor is lucky or unlucky.

The first way of solving this is by fixing the issue allowing Jason to grab someone while being attacked.

Second would be buffing up his melee so he's not basically anchored to the ground as he swipes at people. These first two would give a point to an actual combat confrontation.

Thirdly grabbing strength should be based on a combination of Counselor Health, Counselor Fear (augmented by Composure), and whether or not the Jason has Grab perks, making it so Jason will likely have to frighten or attack people first before they initiate a grab. In order to round that out at maximum Grab Strength (ie counselor is terrified and limping) pocket knives would no longer work instantly, allowing Jason to actually bypass them if he got that far.

Finally, just give Jason some QoL love. Smaller Throwing Knife collection animation, tweak combat stance so it doesn't feel so sluggish to turn on and off, etc.

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36 minutes ago, nax said:

It's not overpowered - it's simply cheesy and very bad feeling and is the consequence of an unfinished combat / grabbing system.

 

You are providing a false dichotomy just as much as they are. The grab system doesn't need to be working this poorly for Jason to be good - Jason needs other improvements so that grab is not the literal be-all end-all of his gameplay. If you start playing with higher level players you will find that shift+grab, bad netcode grabs, and "wiggle" grabs (where jason moves his mouse a bit to increase the grab radius) as well as reaction grabbing people who melee you is essentially the only real ways to kill people. Melee is currently terrible - it roots him in place and if you've ever tried to shift+melee you'll find its not nearly as responsive as shift+grab. This is because melee has a set "attack arc" that is decided the moment you click the button, as opposed to grab which has multiple active frames.

 

Pocket knives are a poor bandaid for this situation as well - they feel bad for both counselors and Jason. For counselors, they're binary. Either you have one and you can get out of some of these random grabs or grabs you literally cannot avoid (we're assuming  skilled players), or you do not have one and you will be caught and killed if you have no support yet. For Jason, if a counselor has one you're just shit out of luck because of how bad melee'ing is. Throwing knives are a decent solution to the stopgap, but are inconvenient due to how long it takes to grab if you're already stalking someone, or if you're just having issues finding any. But again, all of this stuff is simply covering up the fact that Jason's melee attacks are bad and combat system on him has only a couple niche uses due to grab allowing him to ignore counselor attacks.

 

Overall there's just not much give and take with a fight - most confrontations between good players play out in specific ways:  either the counselor is lucky or unlucky.

The first way of solving this is by fixing the issue allowing Jason to grab someone while being attacked.

Second would be buffing up his melee so he's not basically anchored to the ground as he swipes at people. These first two would give a point to an actual combat confrontation.

Thirdly grabbing strength should be based on a combination of Counselor Health, Counselor Fear (augmented by Composure), and whether or not the Jason has Grab perks, making it so Jason will likely have to frighten or attack people first before they initiate a grab. In order to round that out at maximum Grab Strength (ie counselor is terrified and limping) pocket knives would no longer work instantly, allowing Jason to actually bypass them if he got that far.

Finally, just give Jason some QoL love. Smaller Throwing Knife collection animation, tweak combat stance so it doesn't feel so sluggish to turn on and off, etc.

Great post, whole heartily agree with your thoughts.

Currently shift/grab/insta kill is a broke/toxic mechanic and Jason's balance shouldn't revolve around it to be strong.

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In addition, I think it is kind of sloppy that many hits pass right through Jason during his iframes, which is not very intuitive to new players who chalk it up to bugginess. There might be a way that can be refined and better balanced too.

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I agree that there should not be an extra cooldown coming out of shift to prevent grabs. What there should be is a brief delay before executions can be used, aside from environmental kills which should always be immediately available. Many of the "invincibility frames" need to be fixed. I don't think Jason needs to be invincible while chopping down a door, opening a door, and whatnot. I think For Honor did one thing right in that as long as the attack was interrupted before the "killing stroke," the player would live but be heavily wounded. That would be a welcome change here.

I haven't tested it yet but PERHAPS disallowing certain perks from being used together should be entertained. Starting with first aid and getting two uses with first aid can be OP, but that is rendered moot if you grab that player and they don't have a pocket knife, so I'm on the fence about that.

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1 hour ago, Mr. Blonde said:

First, allow me to say that I've been hearing this not only on this forum, but many message boards and it is most definitely the biggest elephant in the room regarding strict game-play concerns. Getting right into the topic; SHIFT-GRAB INTO INSTANT KILLS IS NOT OVERPOWERED. It may seem like an overpowered cheesy tactic at first, but over time in the context of the actual game through higher levels later down the road, it is actually needed to keep Jason "competitive".

 

I cannot fathom with how many players come to the conclusion of "wow, this tactic is so unfair and should be removed" by playing random pub games online or a night with friends. Have any of you actually ever played against an entire team of COMPETITIVE counselors that know what they're doing and how to play the game at a very serious level? It is very difficult to stop a team from surviving in this game and over the course of getting to play against MANY competitive players together (some very good old school team-orientated survival competitive players over the years from LEFT 4 DEAD, DBD, etc.) Once you are put to the test against SEVEN OTHER competitive survivors constantly and grinding the games in and out, you realize some of the flaws and disadvantages that a team can pick apart and abuse on the Jason user. And NO, I am not talking about searching in public games randomly until you find a team of people using "mics", it's much deeper and more complicated than that.

 

 

Let's quickly breakdown why shift-grab deaths are needed:

1.) It's Jason's best and only way to successfully kill a counselor more often than not (unless they have a pocket knife, which completely negates this option) wasting 2-3 minutes trying to kill a counselor juking, stalling, or receiving your full attention is VERY detrimental to the overall pace of the game and most often must be abandoned to multi-task other areas and ensure openings do not happen. Keep in mind you only have 20 minutes to kill each survivor, so you can't possibly spend close to three minutes trying to chase, attack, and kill each one.

 

2.) Counselors out run and maneuver Jason throughout most of the game which would make him almost completely useless if it were not for skills such as morphing, shifting, and throwing knives. Map morphing and throwing knives while they are indeed "options", are in no way reliable or comparable to the viability of shift. A counselor that knows what they're doing is going to be zig-zagging, feinting, cross-path juking, bluffing their movements, 180 quick turns, etc. which Jason it is not as simple as "just shift grab and kill", you must PREDICT the counselors movements ahead of time and make a BALLSY read which forces you to COMMIT. Yes, it is easy to grab predictable players in public search that don't have many hours put into the game and are just playing on their Friday night off for some fun. It is entirely different to successfully grab and read movements from a competitive player that knows the map and generated random layouts in and out.

 

3.) Against competitive groups playing together the tactical stalling and defense trying to make an open can be severely difficult and time consuming which is why banking for a shift-grab kill every time it's off cooldown is sometimes the ONLY offense opportunity you can get. If they have weapons, flare guns, shotgun, firecrackers, etc. this is all going to be very time consuming and force each of your attempts in a manner of "make it count". Let me ask you, how on Earth would you (as Jason) even attempt to kill a team of counselors together with melee items such as bats, machete, etc. without shift grab? You are most likely going to be eating a LOT of stuns and wasting a LOT of valuable time in which other counselors can heavily take advantage of the scenario. It is not fun and very demoralizing. Especially in the way that this scenario is quite common and easy to recreate at high levels.

 

4.) You must multi-task the map and always be aware of other counselors and their options, agendas, and what their plans may be. ALWAYS have to keep the house with the phone section trapped, and be knowledgeable as a few seconds off your focus shift could mean a VERY bad and early game with a call getting through. This means as Jason the most optimal way to play is with background noise boosted so you can hear if phone is tethered, picked up, car engine starting, etc. BY THE WAY (IMPORTANT) - The negative penalties of 'sound ques' of counselors messing up with gas, battery, etc. barely does not happen at a high and competitive level as counselors with high repair are almost ALWAYS in charge of performing these duties and have cover to back them.

 

5.) PERKS, MY GOD PERKS! If there's something you want to complain that is actually "OP", well here you go! Before you read this section KEEP IN MIND that everything prior to this and strictly based on if "Jason shift grab is OP" or not has been conducted and tested WITHOUT THE USE OF PERKS! We attempted to play some "high level competitive" F13 using some of the best perks... and well let's just say the games did not end up being very competitive and was more of a headache and disaster for the Jason player way too many times than not. Having seven competitive players start with Epic Perk Double healing and First Aid sprays is COMPLETELY BROKEN and made if you did not instant kill a counselor with shift-grab, you had virtually no chance to overall damage, cripple, and kill a counselor. Total imbalance with perks which I'm sure that is how the developers intended to be and not directly affect the core balance of the game. I'm sure it can get much worse with combination of perks amongst a team of seven counselors.

 

 

 

Look, we understand F13 is not meant to be played with eight competitive players playing as if it were an actual tournament or the finals play offs to something similar to a superbowl. We know that F13 is mainly made for public game searching, having fun with strangers, and seeing hectic things go afloat that Jason takes advantage of. In public games as counselors you have to worry about team killers (friendly fire), people not knowing the map, players with not much experience / hours, terrible decision makers, lone wolves, language barriers etc. etc. These are all natural pub problems that do NOT EXIST in a competitive environment of a full team of players playing F13 together which is probably what makes it so excruciatingly hard for Jason.

 

Here's the catch, we believe a team of counselors playing properly gives Jason a MUCH more difficult time with the ratio being they TOO OFTEN survive with a few being shift-grabbed killed (if it happens). We think F13 is a VERY FUN and enjoyable game we just wish it was a bit more balanced for the higher level players who like to play games very seriously and competitively. Would some smaller buffs to Jason and some fixes to things we think this game will be AMAZING at a competitive level.

Jason could use some buffs or reworks and I hope if any developers read this they may think of possible ideas to implement or something they like here:

 

JASON BUFFS FOR FUTURE:

1.) THROWING KNIVES - They're good for what they are but main downside is sometimes it can be too time consuming to pick one up unless you're just waiting for morph to appear back and there happens to be a knife next to your current location. They also do not have any headshot advantages and sometimes it takes three or more knife tosses to have a counselor enter "cripple" state.

- Having a bit less of a collecting animation and recovery. (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

- Inflicting more damage. Two throwing knives to the chest area seems reasonable to always put a counselor in cripple state. (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

- Add headshot capabilities with throwing knives that will either instant kill a counselor or immediately put them in the cripple state if headshot. (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

 

2.) TRAPS 

- Ability to recover or pick up traps (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

- Ability to place down a "fake" bait trap with just leaves. These could be set to expire after 30 seconds to a minute or so to prevent abuse. Max of two "fake" traps out at a time. (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

- Ability to place traps on the boat dock

 

3.) TIMER - Add lobby option or ability to increase timer from 20 minutes to 25 minutes or 30 minutes for players that want a bit of a challenge (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason) 

 

4.)  "Ki, ki ki, ma, ma, ma" - Give Jason a new ability to create fog on the map that will make the counselors mini-map on screen freeze temporarily or for him to select an "area" on the map to engulf in fog and the "Ki, ki, ki, ma, ma, ma" sound queus. This would be used as a bait to alert or potential scare / play mindgames with a group of survivors at a part of the map to make them THINK you're there and maybe force them to play defensively WHILE you deal with the current group or have them flee their original plans. In the fog area Jason sounds alert music would be disabled so this would make it ambiguous. Right now, there is NO way to effectively deal with two groups of survivors on a mission, you have to pick and choose your poison and let one of them get away with doing something. This would be a great alternative to add an extra layer or mindgames that counselors would have to think about and buy the bluff or not.

 

That is all for now. Thanks for reading. Back to playing more F13...

 

 

If any of you are curious or believe "Jason shift-grab is OP and must go", I invite you to PLEASE COME PLAY with my group and we will guarantee after some games you will start to see it is very different when you're up against a group of competitive counselors and not random casuals in public search strictly playing to have some fun. None of us run any perks while playing, we all play the game with vanilla counselor stats and defaults to not skew balance and keep it on even and consistent playing fields. We all play on Steam (PC) and we have a serious group of over ten competitive players pouring hours and hours into this game each day grinding together.

Please tell me you have PS4 lol. Read your whole post. I agree 100%! I want to play competitively.

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15 minutes ago, raf1ki said:

In addition, I think it is kind of sloppy that many hits pass right through Jason during his iframes, which is not very intuitive to new players who chalk it up to bugginess. There might be a way that can be refined and better balanced too.

I personally think it's pretty big bullshit you can't hit Jason while he's knocking down a door.

Once saw a Jason knocking down a door to kill someone inside, I walked up hit him twice without him even realizing I was even there only to find out Jason gets invincibility frames while knocking down the door so you can't stun him. So he turned around after knocking down the door and insta grab killed me.

Feelsbad

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1 hour ago, Mr. Blonde said:

First, allow me to say that I've been hearing this not only on this forum, but many message boards and it is most definitely the biggest elephant in the room regarding strict game-play concerns. Getting right into the topic; SHIFT-GRAB INTO INSTANT KILLS IS NOT OVERPOWERED. It may seem like an overpowered cheesy tactic at first, but over time in the context of the actual game through higher levels later down the road, it is actually needed to keep Jason "competitive".

 

I cannot fathom with how many players come to the conclusion of "wow, this tactic is so unfair and should be removed" by playing random pub games online or a night with friends. Have any of you actually ever played against an entire team of COMPETITIVE counselors that know what they're doing and how to play the game at a very serious level? It is very difficult to stop a team from surviving in this game and over the course of getting to play against MANY competitive players together (some very good old school team-orientated survival competitive players over the years from LEFT 4 DEAD, DBD, etc.) Once you are put to the test against SEVEN OTHER competitive survivors constantly and grinding the games in and out, you realize some of the flaws and disadvantages that a team can pick apart and abuse on the Jason user. And NO, I am not talking about searching in public games randomly until you find a team of people using "mics", it's much deeper and more complicated than that.

 

 

Let's quickly breakdown why shift-grab deaths are needed:

1.) It's Jason's best and only way to successfully kill a counselor more often than not (unless they have a pocket knife, which completely negates this option) wasting 2-3 minutes trying to kill a counselor juking, stalling, or receiving your full attention is VERY detrimental to the overall pace of the game and most often must be abandoned to multi-task other areas and ensure openings do not happen. Keep in mind you only have 20 minutes to kill each survivor, so you can't possibly spend close to three minutes trying to chase, attack, and kill each one.

 

2.) Counselors out run and maneuver Jason throughout most of the game which would make him almost completely useless if it were not for skills such as morphing, shifting, and throwing knives. Map morphing and throwing knives while they are indeed "options", are in no way reliable or comparable to the viability of shift. A counselor that knows what they're doing is going to be zig-zagging, feinting, cross-path juking, bluffing their movements, 180 quick turns, etc. which Jason it is not as simple as "just shift grab and kill", you must PREDICT the counselors movements ahead of time and make a BALLSY read which forces you to COMMIT. Yes, it is easy to grab predictable players in public search that don't have many hours put into the game and are just playing on their Friday night off for some fun. It is entirely different to successfully grab and read movements from a competitive player that knows the map and generated random layouts in and out.

 

3.) Against competitive groups playing together the tactical stalling and defense trying to make an open can be severely difficult and time consuming which is why banking for a shift-grab kill every time it's off cooldown is sometimes the ONLY offense opportunity you can get. If they have weapons, flare guns, shotgun, firecrackers, etc. this is all going to be very time consuming and force each of your attempts in a manner of "make it count". Let me ask you, how on Earth would you (as Jason) even attempt to kill a team of counselors together with melee items such as bats, machete, etc. without shift grab? You are most likely going to be eating a LOT of stuns and wasting a LOT of valuable time in which other counselors can heavily take advantage of the scenario. It is not fun and very demoralizing. Especially in the way that this scenario is quite common and easy to recreate at high levels.

 

4.) You must multi-task the map and always be aware of other counselors and their options, agendas, and what their plans may be. ALWAYS have to keep the house with the phone section trapped, and be knowledgeable as a few seconds off your focus shift could mean a VERY bad and early game with a call getting through. This means as Jason the most optimal way to play is with background noise boosted so you can hear if phone is tethered, picked up, car engine starting, etc. BY THE WAY (IMPORTANT) - The negative penalties of 'sound ques' of counselors messing up with gas, battery, etc. barely does not happen at a high and competitive level as counselors with high repair are almost ALWAYS in charge of performing these duties and have cover to back them.

 

5.) PERKS, MY GOD PERKS! If there's something you want to complain that is actually "OP", well here you go! Before you read this section KEEP IN MIND that everything prior to this and strictly based on if "Jason shift grab is OP" or not has been conducted and tested WITHOUT THE USE OF PERKS! We attempted to play some "high level competitive" F13 using some of the best perks... and well let's just say the games did not end up being very competitive and was more of a headache and disaster for the Jason player way too many times than not. Having seven competitive players start with Epic Perk Double healing and First Aid sprays is COMPLETELY BROKEN and made if you did not instant kill a counselor with shift-grab, you had virtually no chance to overall damage, cripple, and kill a counselor. Total imbalance with perks which I'm sure that is how the developers intended to be and not directly affect the core balance of the game. I'm sure it can get much worse with combination of perks amongst a team of seven counselors.

 

 

 

Look, we understand F13 is not meant to be played with eight competitive players playing as if it were an actual tournament or the finals play offs to something similar to a superbowl. We know that F13 is mainly made for public game searching, having fun with strangers, and seeing hectic things go afloat that Jason takes advantage of. In public games as counselors you have to worry about team killers (friendly fire), people not knowing the map, players with not much experience / hours, terrible decision makers, lone wolves, language barriers etc. etc. These are all natural pub problems that do NOT EXIST in a competitive environment of a full team of players playing F13 together which is probably what makes it so excruciatingly hard for Jason.

 

Here's the catch, we believe a team of counselors playing properly gives Jason a MUCH more difficult time with the ratio being they TOO OFTEN survive with a few being shift-grabbed killed (if it happens). We think F13 is a VERY FUN and enjoyable game we just wish it was a bit more balanced for the higher level players who like to play games very seriously and competitively. Would some smaller buffs to Jason and some fixes to things we think this game will be AMAZING at a competitive level.

Jason could use some buffs or reworks and I hope if any developers read this they may think of possible ideas to implement or something they like here:

 

JASON BUFFS FOR FUTURE:

1.) THROWING KNIVES - They're good for what they are but main downside is sometimes it can be too time consuming to pick one up unless you're just waiting for morph to appear back and there happens to be a knife next to your current location. They also do not have any headshot advantages and sometimes it takes three or more knife tosses to have a counselor enter "cripple" state.

- Having a bit less of a collecting animation and recovery. (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

- Inflicting more damage. Two throwing knives to the chest area seems reasonable to always put a counselor in cripple state. (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

- Add headshot capabilities with throwing knives that will either instant kill a counselor or immediately put them in the cripple state if headshot. (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

 

2.) TRAPS 

- Ability to recover or pick up traps (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

- Ability to place down a "fake" bait trap with just leaves. These could be set to expire after 30 seconds to a minute or so to prevent abuse. Max of two "fake" traps out at a time. (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason)

- Ability to place traps on the boat dock

 

3.) TIMER - Add lobby option or ability to increase timer from 20 minutes to 25 minutes or 30 minutes for players that want a bit of a challenge (or add this as a possible perk for a new Jason) 

 

4.)  "Ki, ki ki, ma, ma, ma" - Give Jason a new ability to create fog on the map that will make the counselors mini-map on screen freeze temporarily or for him to select an "area" on the map to engulf in fog and the "Ki, ki, ki, ma, ma, ma" sound queus. This would be used as a bait to alert or potential scare / play mindgames with a group of survivors at a part of the map to make them THINK you're there and maybe force them to play defensively WHILE you deal with the current group or have them flee their original plans. In the fog area Jason sounds alert music would be disabled so this would make it ambiguous. Right now, there is NO way to effectively deal with two groups of survivors on a mission, you have to pick and choose your poison and let one of them get away with doing something. This would be a great alternative to add an extra layer or mindgames that counselors would have to think about and buy the bluff or not.

 

That is all for now. Thanks for reading. Back to playing more F13...

 

 

If any of you are curious or believe "Jason shift-grab is OP and must go", I invite you to PLEASE COME PLAY with my group and we will guarantee after some games you will start to see it is very different when you're up against a group of competitive counselors and not random casuals in public search strictly playing to have some fun. None of us run any perks while playing, we all play the game with vanilla counselor stats and defaults to not skew balance and keep it on even and consistent playing fields. We all play on Steam (PC) and we have a serious group of over ten competitive players pouring hours and hours into this game each day grinding together.

You must be on PC because Xbox if u get grabbed you can't get out and shift grab is all you have to do to win even Jenny's 10/10 composure nothing u can do 

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2 hours ago, nax said:

It's not overpowered - it's simply cheesy and very bad feeling and is the consequence of an unfinished combat / grabbing system.

 

You are providing a false dichotomy just as much as they are. The grab system doesn't need to be working this poorly for Jason to be good - Jason needs other improvements so that grab is not the literal be-all end-all of his gameplay. If you start playing with higher level players you will find that shift+grab, bad netcode grabs, and "wiggle" grabs (where jason moves his mouse a bit to increase the grab radius) as well as reaction grabbing people who melee you is essentially the only real ways to kill people. Melee is currently terrible - it roots him in place and if you've ever tried to shift+melee you'll find its not nearly as responsive as shift+grab. This is because melee has a set "attack arc" that is decided the moment you click the button, as opposed to grab which has multiple active frames.

 

Pocket knives are a poor bandaid for this situation as well - they feel bad for both counselors and Jason. For counselors, they're binary. Either you have one and you can get out of some of these random grabs or grabs you literally cannot avoid (we're assuming  skilled players), or you do not have one and you will be caught and killed if you have no support yet. For Jason, if a counselor has one you're just shit out of luck because of how bad melee'ing is. Throwing knives are a decent solution to the stopgap, but are inconvenient due to how long it takes to grab if you're already stalking someone, or if you're just having issues finding any. But again, all of this stuff is simply covering up the fact that Jason's melee attacks are bad and combat system on him has only a couple niche uses due to grab allowing him to ignore counselor attacks.

 

Overall there's just not much give and take with a fight - most confrontations between good players play out in specific ways:  either the counselor is lucky or unlucky.

The first way of solving this is by fixing the issue allowing Jason to grab someone while being attacked.

Second would be buffing up his melee so he's not basically anchored to the ground as he swipes at people. These first two would give a point to an actual combat confrontation.

Thirdly grabbing strength should be based on a combination of Counselor Health, Counselor Fear (augmented by Composure), and whether or not the Jason has Grab perks, making it so Jason will likely have to frighten or attack people first before they initiate a grab. In order to round that out at maximum Grab Strength (ie counselor is terrified and limping) pocket knives would no longer work instantly, allowing Jason to actually bypass them if he got that far.

Finally, just give Jason some QoL love. Smaller Throwing Knife collection animation, tweak combat stance so it doesn't feel so sluggish to turn on and off, etc.

Yup, solid post. They need to balance grabbing around their combat system, or combat around grabbing, because as it stands, insta-kill grabs are heavily at odds with the combat gameplay and the abundance of weapons. There isn't much point to a map full of weapons, or entering combat stance to dodge/block when Jason can grab-kill entire lobbies.

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The shift grab will not happen at all actually if ppl play serious they will go instantly into a group of 2 negating all grabs. They can also safely do that because shift isn't availible at the start.

That is if they don't flat out stockpile weapons near the car/big house/etc and flat out demolish Jason in group combat because there is no way in hell that you will keep your mask on and are therefor dead no matter how good you are at the end of the day Jason needs to be the aggressor or he won't kill anyone and any action jason takes is punishable with hits against him so he literally cannot avoid being killed against good players.

There is also no small or medium change that can fix this problem. Jasons design is inherently flawed there is nothing they can do except redoing Jason and how he works from scrap.

 

The actual high lvl techniques for councellors blow Jason out of the water even 1vs1, because with enough training you don't have to dodge shift grab anymore and can consider it a free hit.

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5 minutes ago, Pappus said:

The shift grab will not happen at all actually if ppl play serious they will go instantly into a group of 2 negating all grabs. They can also safely do that because shift isn't availible at the start.

That is if they don't flat out stockpile weapons near the car/big house/etc and flat out demolish Jason in group combat because there is no way in hell that you will keep your mask on and are therefor dead no matter how good you are at the end of the day Jason needs to be the aggressor or he won't kill anyone and any action jason takes is punishable with hits against him so he literally cannot avoid being killed against good players.

There is also no small or medium change that can fix this problem. Jasons design is inherently flawed there is nothing they can do except redoing Jason and how he works from scrap.

 

The actual high lvl techniques for councellors blow Jason out of the water even 1vs1, because with enough training you don't have to dodge shift grab anymore and can consider it a free hit.

If you get grabbed by Jason, you are dead if he's playing serious...

All he has to do is instantly kill you the moment he grabs you, not allowing you to even have a chance to stun him...

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Just now, DorkianBae said:

If you get grabbed by Jason, you are dead if he's playing serious...

All he has to do is instantly kill you the moment he grabs you, not allowing you to even have a chance to stun him...

Not true unless you are grabbed out of the driver seat and even that can be defeated even against the hardest of mashers. Do not come at me with half-assed knowledge it is pointless. What I say is spot on.

If you see the grab coming and are in position you will be able to free the person without fail as long as you have a melee weapon. You need to be in position though and not some jack-ass distance away and run in like a crazy, because you can stun jason and free the person before the break prompt even comes. That is right you can rescue a person so fast that he doesnt even drop his weapon nor uses the pocket knife.

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3 minutes ago, Pappus said:

Not true unless you are grabbed out of the driver seat and even that can be defeated even against the hardest of mashers. Do not come at me with half-assed knowledge it is pointless. What I say is spot on.

If you see the grab coming and are in position you will be able to free the person without fail as long as you have a melee weapon. You need to be in position though and not some jack-ass distance away and run in like a crazy, because you can stun jason and free the person before the break prompt even comes. That is right you can rescue a person so fast that he doesnt even drop his weapon nor uses the pocket knife.

I don't know if we are playing the same game because literally every time someone gets grabbed Jason instantly kill's the person he grabs.

As long as he has room to do his kill, he can do it instantly after the grab.

Pretty sure you are full of crap.

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2 minutes ago, DorkianBae said:

I don't know if we are playing the same game because literally every time someone gets grabbed Jason instantly kill's the person he grabs.

As long as he has room to do his kill, he can do it instantly after the grab.

Pretty sure you are full of crap.

Grab animation takes ~2s until Jason is allowed to move/kill his target. During that time you can rescue and Jason cannot even move in that window. Pretty sure you came at me again with half-assed knowledge. Save yourself the time and believe that I know what I am talking about it will expedite your learning process.

However I have no idea if we play the same game. Console might be different I have no knowledge about these platforms I only play PC.

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1 minute ago, Pappus said:

Grab animation takes ~2s until Jason is allowed to move/kill his target. During that time you can rescue and Jason cannot even move in that window. Pretty sure you came at me again with half-assed knowledge. Save yourself the time and believe that I know what I am talking about it will expedite your learning process.

However I have no idea if we play the same game. Console might be different I have no knowledge about these platforms I only play PC.

Claim what you want, you are wrong. There is a reason why people want how grabs work changed.

As for your attitude, how about being a civil human being instead of an asshole with a chip on his shoulder?

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Just now, DorkianBae said:

Claim what you want, you are wrong. There is a reason why people want how grabs work changed.

As for your attitude, how about being a civil human being instead of an asshole with a chip on his shoulder?

My attitude is moody because everyday I come into this forum or reddit I see ppl like you spouting nonsense, while the next guy picks up that half-assed knowledge and posts it somewhere else. It is always a struggle to try and correct people, because good players will always be the minority for obvious reasons.

If I have to guess why ppl want grab changed is because it is not a fun way to die and think it is overpowered, because they don't have the knowledge on how to handle grab. What I told you is that against 2 good councellors there will be no grabkill as long as they move as a pack.

It is not really something I concern myself with I work on new tech everyday so I already know a lot more than the average gamer.

I can offer you this though: Since you are so sure about being correct how about we make a simple 10€ bet. Then I will go through the trouble of watching one of my vods for a couple of minutes and clip you an instant grab rescue in under 2s.

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I know you guys aren't exactly tearing each other to shreds about this, but let's just make sure we keep the conversation civil and be consideration of other points of view.
There's obviously a difference of opinion on this but sharing knowledge doesn't have to be an us vs them situation.

If this can be resolved with a technical breakdown I'd be genuinely interested in seeing that myself.

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3 hours ago, DamonD7 said:

I know you guys aren't exactly tearing each other to shreds about this, but let's just make sure we keep the conversation civil and be consideration of other points of view.
There's obviously a difference of opinion on this but sharing knowledge doesn't have to be an us vs them situation.

If this can be resolved with a technical breakdown I'd be genuinely interested in seeing that myself.

Damon unfortunately it is exactly as I describe it. You can see the posts flaring up of Jasons being frustrated with stunlocks, being bullied, being trolled here and there. You can be sure as hell that they had the pleasure of playing against someone good. If the grab or the shift grab was all that powerful why would these ever show up. He cannot, because he will defend and against a twopack grabs do not exist.

In reality the balance of this game is so massively in favor of councellors that not killing Jason is a failure. It is the fastest win to achieve, gives the most xp and is easy to do.

However I can post as much information as I want (heck I have videoguides up specifically for kiting and against shift grabs), but it echoes against the sheer masses of uninformed players. They do not want to learn even if you slap the correct information in their face they will deny it, because it can't possibly be that the root of the problem is them and not the grab.

 

The truth is every offensive action a Jason takes can be punished. Grabbing, Swinging, Throwing knives and you need 3-4 punishes to take the mask and build the mob that can instantly put him into execution animation. It won't be long then I will have the first clip of hunting a jason through the map with a car, because what can he really do....

 

Edit: Especially when you come from the background like me that you reached out to the developers and warned them that Jason in his current iteration will be no threat and get a response that goes roughly like this: "Thanks, but we think we have it covered, but if you are right I will totally eat crow". Half a year later you were exactly right, the game you were waiting for is a joke balance wise. The numbers drop into nothingness fast because nobody wants to be grabbed and choked. So technically they have to nerf it even further and when my knowledge then has spread to several thousands of players all hope will be lost for Jason and there will be no small fix that fixes it, because he has to be redesigned.

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