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Should grab meter be used?  

64 members have voted

  1. 1. Should grab meter be used?

    • No, Jason should instantly kill counselors
      12
    • Yes, counselors should struggle
      52


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I've been playing this game obsessively since the night of its release, with Pt 2 Jason as my preference. I watched Youtubers like Ohmwrecker play it in the beta and made my own observations, so I went in with a solid idea of how to play and quickly got better. I can make it out as counselor most of the time (if Jason isn't rounding everyone up and killing them immediately), and I can usually kill 6-8 as Jason - all 8 more often than not. The most important factor that influences the game is how quickly the first few players die. Against the best counselors, or in games when the cops get called right away, I usually lose about 3 counselors. I have just under 100 hours of playtime. I have some thoughts about balance, including everybody's favorite controversial topic, grab kills and shift grabbing.

I'm in the camp that Jason should be OP as hell, but like it or not, we need to discuss grab kills. When you get grabbed, you either have a knife or you die. There is literally no point in button mashing unless you have 10/10 stats and Jason is looking for an environmental kill. (NOTE: Some players are insisting that composure is the stat that matters, but Buggzy is the only player who can break free as quickly as Tommy. Anyway, my point is about how button mashing is easily circumvented by instakills from Jason, not about which stat matters.) I wasn't in the beta, so I don't know if this is intended or not. This doesn't seem intended, because additionally there is zero window for counselors to save each other if Jason has enough room to perform the kill. Jason can grab the counselor whilst being invulnerable, then immediately execute the counselor whilst being invulnerable. I think there needs to be some sort of window of opportunity here for counselors to help each other, since the vulnerability state between lasts only milliseconds when Jason is spamming his kill button. This is not working as intended.

See this video from this thread to see what I mean about the grab meter being pointless, and plenty of discussion. I think the grab reach is broken on consoles at the moment. Since we can assume consoles will get the same patches as PC, I am not concerned about that. This post is about the future balance of the game, and keeping it fun for the long term.

There are a couple of ways to implement this, but I can't pretend to know what is best. But my observations might be helpful. Here are my suggestions. Jason could have 0.5-1.5 seconds of time (randomized) where he is vulnerable and holding the counselor, and if he wants can walk towards that environmental kill. He cannot perform an execution until the hidden timer is up. The counselor has small random windows to break free based on their composure/strength (similar to the repair minigame instead of button mashing). Or maybe they can button mash but only when the correct meter is displayed, and this time button mashing actually works (but if you mistime it, it hurts). Something to make it more fair, and like an actual functional game mechanic. This would lead to a lot more cooperation and a lot less rage, and add the game mechanic that seems to be intended, yet is missing during the grab sequences. Obviously, balance can be tweaked to help Jason somehow if this ends up making him more difficult (since he should remain OP). This change is just a suggestion to make the game more fun, which is good for its longevity.

I wouldn't mind seeing a .5 cooldown on grabbing out of shift, honestly. Jason is super powerful without it. Pt 2 Jason already can't shift-grab super effectively because his shift is so slow and you have to overshoot and grab diagonally over the counselor's shoulder. This is just another suggestion to make the game feel more fair to the counselors. Again, Jason can be buffed slightly in another department to make up for this nerf!! I don't see why this should be a big deal at all. An example of a counterbuff: 0.5 seconds of no grabbing out of shift, but a small speed boost to Jason for 0.5 seconds after shifting. Seriously, it's that easy. Again, these are just ideas.

Finally, please fix it so that kills get credited to Jason when a player quits mid death-animation. Currently, they slump to the floor as a suicide and the rest of the kill animation plays out, making me feel like a stupid fool who has been cheated of my kill. Their death is scored as a suicide. Some game soon I will get 0/8 kills because every player hit the quit button before the animation finished playing out. (By the way, this is indicative of a problem with the fun-factor as counselor. I'm getting sick of seeing counselors who don't enjoy it when I kill them. I really do think it is related to how angry they get from being instakilled).

P.S. Jason can abuse combat stance to take down doors faster, and he can use block in combat stance to block all stuns.

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I see you have discovered my tactic for combating doors. Actually I think the standard door chopping animation should be as fast as combat stance but that's just me.

I think there is a skill to shift-grabbing. Instead of negating that, simply buff counselors to have a shot at getting away after a grab. Say, have a cooldown timer before Jason can execute, but can do environmental stuff immediately, and the Strength stat determines how long this cooldown period is, giving high strength more reason to choose those counselors. Seeing as how right now all high strength counselors are low stealth as well, people just opt for high stealth instead because it's better not to be found by Jason at all in the first place.

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What about a Quick series of QTE? Better stats gives a slower progression through them. Low stats and they go fast. Weakened and they go fast.

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I like any and all suggestions. QTE do feel a little gamey, but anything would be better than what we currently have. Keep em coming.

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The QTE could be assigned to strictly RT and LT stick motions... as if the counselors RT and LT sides of body struggling to get free. Again better stats would lead to better chance at success... low stats or weakened would be really difficult to complete... but possible! lol

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If we used a QTE, what if a mistake caused Jason's kills to charge up faster (with visible meters like with his abilities), but progress all the way could have you break free? The question is though, what can Jason do to increase his chances? Maybe he can have some influence over when the QTE prompts?

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I was thinking about ways to combat this as well. The best I could come up with is having Jason's grab kills require a heat up before he can use them (maybe like 4-5 seconds). During this time, the counselor has an opportunity to break free (either through mashing or a mini-game). Jason can make this game harder to beat however by doing damage to the counselor before grabbing. More damage = more inputs to press to escape. To keep it engaging and avoid button mashing, the counselor can have one mistake in the mini-game but after the second, they pass out in Jason's grasp and he's free to kill them how he wants. if they stay with the button mashing bar, they could randomly change the button to mash midway through filling the bar. The more damage sustained, the more often it changes. 

 As a side note, I feel like if a counselor is holding a flare gun, they should be able to shoot him in the face and break free from his grasp just like the pocket knife. Not sure why they just drop their gun simply cause they were grabbed at the neck.... 

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Here's a really simple refinement of cruehitman's idea that could probably work: have the player alternate right-click and left-click (or RT and LT) rapidly in sync with the game prompts to fill up their resistance meter. Do it really well and it fills up faster. Do it poorly and it hardly moves. The main thing is that there is an actual window of time where Jason can be hit and forced to drop a counselor.

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Maybe make the struggle meter easy/harder to pull off based on stamina.

so for people that get grabbed when they have a lot of stamina they can break free easier. And vice versa.

i could probably get behind that idea. Most people would be around 50/50 stamina when they get caught so it should be 50/50 on how they can escape.

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8 minutes ago, raf1ki said:

Here's a really simple refinement of cruehitman's idea that could probably work: have the player alternate right-click and left-click (or RT and LT) rapidly in sync with the game prompts to fill up their resistance meter. Do it really well and it fills up faster. Do it poorly and it hardly moves. The main thing is that there is an actual window of time where Jason can be hit and forced to drop a counselor.

I can't remember what game...but I think it was a UFC game that made you twirl the R & L sticks furiously to escape certain moves/manuevers.

I hope no game ever does something like that again as it's a god-damned death sentence for controllers.

I like where your head is at, but mashing R3 & L3 sounds bad for the controller life.

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8 minutes ago, munkt0r said:

I can't remember what game...but I think it was a UFC game that made you twirl the R & L sticks furiously to escape certain moves/manuevers.

I hope no game ever does something like that again as it's a god-damned death sentence for controllers.

I like where your head is at, but mashing R3 & L3 sounds bad for the controller life.

he didn't suggest R3 and L3... right click and left click was his PC player suggestion and Right Trigger and Left Trigger was his console controller suggestion. 

"have the player alternate right-click and left-click (or RT and LT) rapidly"

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I feel that grabs should only work against counsellors who are critically injured or at the maximum fear level.

 

That, or make grabs easy to escape when not scared/injured/tired, and have them progressively more difficult to escape as those states decline.

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5 minutes ago, Ralph Wiggum777 said:

he didn't suggest R3 and L3... right click and left click was his PC player suggestion and Right Trigger and Left Trigger was his console controller suggestion. 

"have the player alternate right-click and left-click (or RT and LT) rapidly"

Thank you for that clarification, I had misunderstood the "click" to mean R3/L3.  R2 and L2 (or triggers) would be reasonable...but likely still degrade the controller.

Face buttons are the best "mash" buttons and I don't think that can really be disputed in general.

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Good to know. Don't want any controllers degrading.

I'm getting fond of the idea of having seriously insane QTE prompts for escaping grabs. What if you were prompted to press random buttons on the controller to fill the escape meter, but mistakes would fill up Jason's kills faster. When low stamina or low composure/strength whatever stats go into it, the prompts get insanely fast. Then players won't have to give up, but they WILL panic :D:D

I love this idea because it encourages players to cling desperately to hope, one of the things that makes this game so great.

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OP, don't forget about the grab's gravitational pull- which is ridiculous.  I can be 2 character lengths away from Jason, and get sucked into his grip.  

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Liken it to the repair meters used... using only R1 and L1. Of your repair stat sucks, you need way more small prompts to attempt repairs. Using the same system, but basing it off stamina and fear or composure instead. More mistakes, the quicker you possibly bring about Jason's wrath. But succeed, and you have a chance to break away. 

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I was thinking of having the images just flash without the circular meter, so we can keep the linear escape meter. And add more variety in button cues the more challenging it gets for maximum evil and to further differentiate the two minigames. Having the icons flash without knowing exactly when each will happen adds to the stress and panic of being in Jason's grip vs. filling a gas tank.

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8 hours ago, Ralph Wiggum777 said:

I was thinking about ways to combat this as well. The best I could come up with is having Jason's grab kills require a heat up before he can use them (maybe like 4-5 seconds). During this time, the counselor has an opportunity to break free (either through mashing or a mini-game).

Wait, isn't this how it works right now? It seems like I'm always waiting for my grab kills to "heat up" and that this allows the counselors to break free a lot. Is this not supposed to be happening (like, is it just me experiencing lag or something?).

I was actually under the impression that the more wounded the counselor was when you grabbed them that the quicker the grab kills "heated up."

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@RKSDooM: No, what you're experiencing is not having room around you to perform the kill. This can be influenced by crowding from other counselors, uneven terrain, or enclosed spaces. Spin around and you'll notice some kills light up immediately.

I'd like to see some arguments from the people who are voting option A lol. You guys would like to see the option to struggle removed entirely, even though the stats and game are supposed to be balanced around it? I mean, I'm not saying it should be easier to escape or defeat Jason, if anything the opposite, but I think that something that is supposed to be fun has turned sour instead. The goal should be refinement of all possible game mechanics.

And man, every single game I get Jason, people quit mid kill. Does this happen to anyone else? It has happened over 10 times today... It's making me dislike playing him.

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7 minutes ago, raf1ki said:

@RKSDooM: No, what you're experiencing is not having room around you to perform the kill. This can be influenced by crowding from other counselors, uneven terrain, or enclosed spaces. Spin around and you'll notice some kills light up immediately.

I am out of likes, but OH MY BABY JESUS thank you for the head's up! I was planning to take a break from the game for a couple of days, but that little tidbit has totally ruined that notion.

I cannot believe that I got to level 23 without figuring this out.

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The OP matches my experience.  A competent Jason player using shift grab will wipe the counselors out almost every time barring extremely lucky situations where people spawn right run on top of the items they need without needing to cross any distance to install them.  Which to say only situations where you literally can't morph to all the locations where you need to lay traps/kill counselors fast enough right at the start.  Otherwise, it's easy to clear the board. The button mashing prompt when you get grabbed is a brutal farce aa even the chars with the highest possible stats cannot escape unless the Jason lets them (IE, looks for and doesn't find an environmental kill).  There really needs to be a change to one or the other.  Making escaping grabs possible (at least with unwounded chars with high composure) or add a slight delay between exiting shift and grabbing.  The issue isn't so much being OP (Jason obviously has and should have an unfair advantage) as it is boredom.  The current shift/grab/insta-kill rinse and repeat tactic is dull and as people get increasingly better at it, the repetitiveness and predictablity will soon cause people to drop out IMO.

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I'll crosslink this other thread about balance out of courtesy since I plugged mine here:

 

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11 hours ago, raf1ki said:

I've been playing this game obsessively since the night of its release, with Pt 2 Jason as my preference. I watched Youtubers like Ohmwrecker play it in the beta and made my own observations, so I went in with a solid idea of how to play and quickly got better. I can make it out as counselor most of the time (if Jason isn't rounding everyone up and killing them immediately), and I can usually kill 6-8 as Jason - all 8 more often than not. The most important factor that influences the game is how quickly the first few players die. Against the best counselors, or in games when the cops get called right away, I usually lose about 3 counselors. I have just under 100 hours of playtime. I have some thoughts about balance, including everybody's favorite controversial topic, grab kills and shift grabbing.

I'm in the camp that Jason should be OP as hell, but like it or not, we need to discuss grab kills. When you get grabbed, you either have a knife or you die. There is literally no point in button mashing unless you have 10/10 stats and Jason is looking for an environmental kill. (NOTE: Some players are insisting that composure is the stat that matters, but Buggzy is the only player who can break free as quickly as Tommy. Anyway, my point is about how button mashing is easily circumvented by instakills from Jason, not about which stat matters.) I wasn't in the beta, so I don't know if this is intended or not. This doesn't seem intended, because additionally there is zero window for counselors to save each other if Jason has enough room to perform the kill. Jason can grab the counselor whilst being invulnerable, then immediately execute the counselor whilst being invulnerable. I think there needs to be some sort of window of opportunity here for counselors to help each other, since the vulnerability state between lasts only milliseconds when Jason is spamming his kill button. This is not working as intended.

See this video from this thread to see what I mean about the grab meter being pointless, and plenty of discussion. I think the grab reach is broken on consoles at the moment. Since we can assume consoles will get the same patches as PC, I am not concerned about that. This post is about the future balance of the game, and keeping it fun for the long term.

There are a couple of ways to implement this, but I can't pretend to know what is best. But my observations might be helpful. Here are my suggestions. Jason could have 0.5-1.5 seconds of time (randomized) where he is vulnerable and holding the counselor, and if he wants can walk towards that environmental kill. He cannot perform an execution until the hidden timer is up. The counselor has small random windows to break free based on their composure/strength (similar to the repair minigame instead of button mashing). Or maybe they can button mash but only when the correct meter is displayed, and this time button mashing actually works (but if you mistime it, it hurts). Something to make it more fair, and like an actual functional game mechanic. This would lead to a lot more cooperation and a lot less rage, and add the game mechanic that seems to be intended, yet is missing during the grab sequences. Obviously, balance can be tweaked to help Jason somehow if this ends up making him more difficult (since he should remain OP). This change is just a suggestion to make the game more fun, which is good for its longevity.

I wouldn't mind seeing a .5 cooldown on grabbing out of shift, honestly. Jason is super powerful without it. Pt 2 Jason already can't shift-grab super effectively because his shift is so slow and you have to overshoot and grab diagonally over the counselor's shoulder. This is just another suggestion to make the game feel more fair to the counselors. Again, Jason can be buffed slightly in another department to make up for this nerf!! I don't see why this should be a big deal at all. An example of a counterbuff: 0.5 seconds of no grabbing out of shift, but a small speed boost to Jason for 0.5 seconds after shifting. Seriously, it's that easy. Again, these are just ideas.

Finally, please fix it so that kills get credited to Jason when a player quits mid death-animation. Currently, they slump to the floor as a suicide and the rest of the kill animation plays out, making me feel like a stupid fool who has been cheated of my kill. Their death is scored as a suicide. Some game soon I will get 0/8 kills because every player hit the quit button before the animation finished playing out. (By the way, this is indicative of a problem with the fun-factor as counselor. I'm getting sick of seeing counselors who don't enjoy it when I kill them. I really do think it is related to how angry they get from being instakilled).

P.S. Jason can abuse combat stance to take down doors faster, and he can use block in combat stance to block all stuns.

Ok I love you for making this post I also have about 90hrs into game how ever how the hell can bugsy get out of Jason's grab faster than jenny 10/20 composure clearly the stats says composure gets out of Jason's grab the fastest there for Jenny should win right ?

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14 hours ago, raf1ki said:

I've been playing this game obsessively since the night of its release, with Pt 2 Jason as my preference. I watched Youtubers like Ohmwrecker play it in the beta and made my own observations, so I went in with a solid idea of how to play and quickly got better. I can make it out as counselor most of the time (if Jason isn't rounding everyone up and killing them immediately), and I can usually kill 6-8 as Jason - all 8 more often than not. The most important factor that influences the game is how quickly the first few players die. Against the best counselors, or in games when the cops get called right away, I usually lose about 3 counselors. I have just under 100 hours of playtime. I have some thoughts about balance, including everybody's favorite controversial topic, grab kills and shift grabbing.

I'm in the camp that Jason should be OP as hell, but like it or not, we need to discuss grab kills. When you get grabbed, you either have a knife or you die. There is literally no point in button mashing unless you have 10/10 stats and Jason is looking for an environmental kill. (NOTE: Some players are insisting that composure is the stat that matters, but Buggzy is the only player who can break free as quickly as Tommy. Anyway, my point is about how button mashing is easily circumvented by instakills from Jason, not about which stat matters.) I wasn't in the beta, so I don't know if this is intended or not. This doesn't seem intended, because additionally there is zero window for counselors to save each other if Jason has enough room to perform the kill. Jason can grab the counselor whilst being invulnerable, then immediately execute the counselor whilst being invulnerable. I think there needs to be some sort of window of opportunity here for counselors to help each other, since the vulnerability state between lasts only milliseconds when Jason is spamming his kill button. This is not working as intended.

See this video from this thread to see what I mean about the grab meter being pointless, and plenty of discussion. I think the grab reach is broken on consoles at the moment. Since we can assume consoles will get the same patches as PC, I am not concerned about that. This post is about the future balance of the game, and keeping it fun for the long term.

There are a couple of ways to implement this, but I can't pretend to know what is best. But my observations might be helpful. Here are my suggestions. Jason could have 0.5-1.5 seconds of time (randomized) where he is vulnerable and holding the counselor, and if he wants can walk towards that environmental kill. He cannot perform an execution until the hidden timer is up. The counselor has small random windows to break free based on their composure/strength (similar to the repair minigame instead of button mashing). Or maybe they can button mash but only when the correct meter is displayed, and this time button mashing actually works (but if you mistime it, it hurts). Something to make it more fair, and like an actual functional game mechanic. This would lead to a lot more cooperation and a lot less rage, and add the game mechanic that seems to be intended, yet is missing during the grab sequences. Obviously, balance can be tweaked to help Jason somehow if this ends up making him more difficult (since he should remain OP). This change is just a suggestion to make the game more fun, which is good for its longevity.

I wouldn't mind seeing a .5 cooldown on grabbing out of shift, honestly. Jason is super powerful without it. Pt 2 Jason already can't shift-grab super effectively because his shift is so slow and you have to overshoot and grab diagonally over the counselor's shoulder. This is just another suggestion to make the game feel more fair to the counselors. Again, Jason can be buffed slightly in another department to make up for this nerf!! I don't see why this should be a big deal at all. An example of a counterbuff: 0.5 seconds of no grabbing out of shift, but a small speed boost to Jason for 0.5 seconds after shifting. Seriously, it's that easy. Again, these are just ideas.

Finally, please fix it so that kills get credited to Jason when a player quits mid death-animation. Currently, they slump to the floor as a suicide and the rest of the kill animation plays out, making me feel like a stupid fool who has been cheated of my kill. Their death is scored as a suicide. Some game soon I will get 0/8 kills because every player hit the quit button before the animation finished playing out. (By the way, this is indicative of a problem with the fun-factor as counselor. I'm getting sick of seeing counselors who don't enjoy it when I kill them. I really do think it is related to how angry they get from being instakilled).

P.S. Jason can abuse combat stance to take down doors faster, and he can use block in combat stance to block all stuns.

I do agree with you with the grabs. Would rather see it re-invented a bit, where maybe the pocketknife just gets replaced. Some Jason players go for the win (or for the most experience) and just neglect all grabs. They just swing and kill: 100xp without the 10-50xp versatile bonus, but you wont waste minutes on pocket knives.
My suggestion would be to limit the pocketknife to maybe just 1. An automatic escape should be the exception, not the rule. (more than 50% of counselors seem to break off with a pocketknife).
Also add an extra method of escaping the grab. The first, regular one: Hold 'E' for a safe escape, which most counselors wont be able to do.
The second, which almost all counselors should be able to (in full health), is struggle to escape. Depending on health, stamina, you might escape from Jason, but get injured in the progress. After which Jason should have an easier time getting you.
Strong counselors can fight off a Jason, other counselors injure themselves in the struggle.
The pocketknives do not really work and feels currently as a placeholder.

My summarized points:

- Button smashing is not okay, just make players hold a button. Increases fairplay a lot and noone likes smashing buttons. Come on, this isn't the Olympics DOS game from 1984.
- They should re-engineer the grabbing / pocketknife thing. Currently it forces the non-creative players into a non desired play style. (it's not bad, but it can be good)
- Give in-game leaving players a -100xp penalty the next round. (not cumulative)
- Give Jason a 100xp bonus, when a player leaves in-game. ("Scared away" - 100xp). Add the kill when close. (suicide should also count for something similar "Scared to death" - 100xp).

Currently there are too many exploits for Jason, including combat stances, multiple hits and those things. The non-creative players do use the exploits a lot.
 

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Here are my new thoughts. I may make a new thread with this post if it gets lost in this thread:

The balance of the game is pretty good for quickplay matches. On average, most games end with only 1 or 2 escapes when it is a fair game. In higher level games, some argue that counselors can escape Jason too easily by working together as a well-oiled team. The difficulty is creating a balance curve that makes Jason strong against well-oiled teams, but also well balanced against public matches, where many players do not have mics or know how to work together. The following changes aren’t meant to nerf or buff Jason overall, but rework gameplay elements that can raise the skill ceiling for both counselors and Jason without affecting the baseline gameplay, which seems close to well-balanced now.

  • Let counselors actually have a chance to break Jason’s grabs instead of letting Jason spam his kill buttons for the instakill. When Jason executes his instakill within milliseconds of its availability, which is now happening in the majority of games, the grab meter has no purpose. Make Jason’s kills fill up like his abilities (have the backgrounds still light up faintly red to indicate when there is room to do them), and give counselors a hectic minigame to increase their struggle meter. Depending on counselor stats and the amount of health and stamina remaining, this minigame can vary from straightforward to extremely random, with many random button flashes at ridiculous speeds. A mistake is penalized by filling Jason’s kills faster. Unless at max stats or the counselor does the minigame with perfect timing, Jason gets the kill. Instead of letting counselors break each other free completely, make it so when Jason gets hit by another counselor, his kill meter loses speed for a moment, forgiving the grabbed counselor a mistake. This would stop counselors from giving up the moment they are grabbed, encourage more cooperation, and prolong the sense of desperation even in the face of the impossible that makes this game so amazing sometimes.
  • On that note about hitting Jason… give counselors more windows to hit Jason. Reduce the number of iframes that are so unintuitive and such a cheap way to add strength to Jason. Make it so that hitting Jason during his current iframes has a limited effect, even if all he does is flinch for a few milliseconds. Anytime Jason is performing anything scripted he is invincible? Hitting doors, grabbing people, recovering from stuns? This is why people think the game is so buggy. The only time this is intuitive is when he is executing kills. There are better solutions to this problem (but yes, we don't want Jason stunlocked at all times).
  • Nerf shift-grabbing. Yes, there are elements of skill to performing it and the counselors can outmaneuver Jason by juking left and right, but this is a cheesy game mechanic that reduces counselor autonomy and feels like a bandaid to the problem of Jason having no other reliable methods for catching counselors. If we tweak gameplay elements all around correctly, this will not be a problem. Do not allow Jason to grab for half a second after he comes out of shift. Instead, penalize any counselor within a few paces of him with slower movement, or increase Jason’s movement speed for a few moments. The end result is pretty much the same thing as before, but players will find that it adds more depth to the encounter.
  • Fix allowing Jason to hit doors in combat stance.
  • Keep letting Jason block all stuns in combat stance.
  • When Jason is reaching out to grab somebody who is swinging at him, make him repeat the grab (but don’t stun him). It is currently too easy to grab players as they attempt to hit you.
  • Don’t make Jason take so long to grab knives. If this is meant to stop him from morphing immediately, then add a 2 second wait to his first morph.
  • Make counselors physically use pocket knives on Jason by pressing the correct button at the correct time (not a full on minigame, but make them time it correctly).

These changes make it so overall, Jason takes less full duration stuns but gets to rely on less immediate methods of capture and execution. They shouldn't really change any fundamental game mechanics, but I think they tweak it in just the right ways to add a bit more fluid, dynamic gameplay (hopefully raising the skill ceiling without altering the baseline).

 

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