Pyxis

Ring around the Rosie

46 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, BloodyNights said:

I've seen people attempt to do this with me, I don't bother with knives, or using stalk outside. I also don't switch sides, I just chase them in a circle, and shift. They will run out of stamina, but when you pussyfoot around and try to get all crafty with trying to catch them is when you have issues. Like in the video up above. That Jason should have smashed the windows and followed him in a circle. He'd have run out of stamina and had no where left to go but out of the building with zero stamina. I've never played a professional team of counselors if that's even a thing, but my kill count is almost always everyone. This isn't a viable tactic to use against him unless they are beginning Jason players.

But sure I wouldn't mind being able to knock away chairs and tables.

The video isn't even the best/worst example of this - I was more referring to one of the smaller cabins with the "couch with chairs and tables in front" setups, where it's too confined to shift effectively, and the "loop" is too far for reach or weapon attacks to be effective.

And again, the biggest problem in these small rooms is that they are NOT running out of stamina doing RAR, even for several minutes at a time.  That's one of the biggest issues I have with RAR - counselors can run in a loop indefinitely indoors and not tire out.  When you have a player committed to doing it in a small room like I described above, there's nothing even a running Jason can do about it.  

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2 minutes ago, BloodyNights said:

Well I don't know what to tell you. I've had Tommy's, and Vanessa's try this tactic. Keep in mind I usually don't casually walk towards them the entire time, I'll shift as well. I'm very good with shift + grab, I'm even pretty decent at it in houses. So use shift + power walk and you should be fine. I personally don't think any counselor including Tommy has ever been able to truly stall me for very long.

However I will say me as Tommy or Vanessa, I've stalled a ton of different Jason's some as long as 10 minutes. I don't understand how, as I find most people incredibly easy to catch especially with Jason Part 6 and Part 9.

As soon as you shift they run eratically back and forth, it's hard to catch them and even getting a hair's distance out of grab range or have you facing the wrong direction is enough for them to keep ahead, even just jogging.

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To both people who quoted me, I've stated my opinion. I do not have an issue with it. Especially the table and chairs set up as there is a very easy shifting path, it's a circle. I'm on ps4, if you'd like to we can even set up a private match, and you can try playing as Vanessa, and you can try to last for as long as you can if you want, and you can see if ring around the rosie tactics will keep you alive for long, or how well you can spaz out from a Jason's shift grab while doing so.

On another note I did mention I wasn't opposed to Jason knocking the chairs and tables out of the way. But I feel they'd need to add a new engine just for that. And if they went that far it'd be cool to throw chairs at people :D

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1 hour ago, BloodyNights said:

To both people who quoted me, I've stated my opinion. I do not have an issue with it. Especially the table and chairs set up as there is a very easy shifting path, it's a circle. I'm on ps4, if you'd like to we can even set up a private match, and you can try playing as Vanessa, and you can try to last for as long as you can if you want, and you can see if ring around the rosie tactics will keep you alive for long, or how well you can spaz out from a Jason's shift grab while doing so.

On another note I did mention I wasn't opposed to Jason knocking the chairs and tables out of the way. But I feel they'd need to add a new engine just for that. And if they went that far it'd be cool to throw chairs at people :D

I don't think it'd require a new engine, considering this engine has been handling destructible walls, doors, windows, and fences okay.  There's some physics jank they may need to deal with but generally you'd need an animation to destroy it and then art assets for before and after destruction, and then of course change collision properties to indicate there's no longer a solid impassable object there but you can walk through the space.

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1 hour ago, BloodyNights said:

To both people who quoted me, I've stated my opinion. I do not have an issue with it. Especially the table and chairs set up as there is a very easy shifting path, it's a circle. I'm on ps4, if you'd like to we can even set up a private match, and you can try playing as Vanessa, and you can try to last for as long as you can if you want, and you can see if ring around the rosie tactics will keep you alive for long, or how well you can spaz out from a Jason's shift grab while doing so.

Well, it's not a matter of ME being able to beat you doing it (I don't do RAR or exploit glitches at all, because I think it's lame and defeats the purpose of enjoying playing a game), it's that certain number of players who make that their "thing" and master it.  Sure, I've had players try unsuccessfully to do RAR, and loop too close to the couch, or aren't paying attention and fall for a simple "Jason circles in the other direction for a second" trick and get caught, but those are novice RAR players who aren't constant exploiters.  The ones who've figured out where the "safe range" is and are committed to doing it for 5 minutes + to run out the clock are the problems that kill game sessions.

And the bigger issue is:  Why should Jason have to use a supernatural power to catch a counselor running around a couch?  In real life, me, as a mere mortal with no super powers could easily dive over the couch and tackle a dude, or shove the couch over, so why should the giant unstoppable killer with an axe need to use magic powers to do the same?

Heck, forget real life - in THIS GAME Jason can easily chop through a bed, closet, outhouse, etc. to kill a hiding counselor, but he can't reach over a couch or flip over a dinner table when they hide there.  That's a problem that should be near the top of the list to fix in the next patch.

 

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I like the idea of being able to chop through a table or couch as well. Maybe it could be something that you could only do once Rage was active? That way it's still giving counselors a bit of a chance which seems like it's what it's designed for but then the climax of the match won't end in a ring around the rosie match?

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6 minutes ago, vehiclesshockme said:

I like the idea of being able to chop through a table or couch as well. Maybe it could be something that you could only do once Rage was active? That way it's still giving counselors a bit of a chance which seems like it's what it's designed for but then the climax of the match won't end in a ring around the rosie match?

I agree that it should only be activated at rage, as I hide around furniture if Jason breaks down the door and there are no other exits, only to create distance. And eventually escape.

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3 hours ago, AJLeatherman said:

Well, it's not a matter of ME being able to beat you doing it (I don't do RAR or exploit glitches at all, because I think it's lame and defeats the purpose of enjoying playing a game), it's that certain number of players who make that their "thing" and master it.  Sure, I've had players try unsuccessfully to do RAR, and loop too close to the couch, or aren't paying attention and fall for a simple "Jason circles in the other direction for a second" trick and get caught, but those are novice RAR players who aren't constant exploiters.  The ones who've figured out where the "safe range" is and are committed to doing it for 5 minutes + to run out the clock are the problems that kill game sessions.

And the bigger issue is:  Why should Jason have to use a supernatural power to catch a counselor running around a couch?  In real life, me, as a mere mortal with no super powers could easily dive over the couch and tackle a dude, or shove the couch over, so why should the giant unstoppable killer with an axe need to use magic powers to do the same?

Heck, forget real life - in THIS GAME Jason can easily chop through a bed, closet, outhouse, etc. to kill a hiding counselor, but he can't reach over a couch or flip over a dinner table when they hide there.  That's a problem that should be near the top of the list to fix in the next patch.

 

The thing is there is multiple layers you have to look at here. Biggest two is how good is the counselor at juking, and how good is Jason at catching. Someone who has mastered a counselor, and someone who has mastered Jason's abilities. Jason has the advantage completely. Some people have trouble hitting people with knives. Heck I've seen tons of people have issues catching cars, or using Shift + grab. Some can't use it well in buildings because they end up running into obstacles that if they had the experience they could avoid. And I'll just point out, Vanessa, Bugsy, and Tommy, are all 3 good at stalling Jason. Their entire job is to keep him busy while other counselors fix parts/escape.

Even without the table and chairs you are not catching a decent Vanessa, Bugsy, or Tommy without your shift ability. Their casual jog is faster than Jason running. And they will just gain back the stamina lost by going through windows for a second. So even if the table and chairs are cumbersome to deal with Jason will need a super natural ability regardless to catch them. From my personal experience as a Jason who averages killing every counselor very quickly I might add. And have had about I don't know 300-400 games under my belt as a counselor, and playing as Jason. I do not feel this is a true exploit. It's a risky tactic to delay him from the inevitable. It is not in any means an overpowered strategy in the least.

I've mentioned that allowing Jason to destroy the obstacles, or move them isn't a bad idea. Heck I could see some cool kill animations coming from it, like him picking up a chair and slamming them over and over again. Personally I get more annoyed at the windows in long houses, simply because players will attempt to commit suicide, and it's hard to stop them! lol

 

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38 minutes ago, BloodyNights said:

 

Even without the table and chairs you are not catching a decent Vanessa, Bugsy, or Tommy without your shift ability. Their casual jog is faster than Jason running. And they will just gain back the stamina lost by going through windows for a second. So even if the table and chairs are cumbersome to deal with Jason will need a super natural ability regardless to catch them. From my personal experience as a Jason who averages killing every counselor very quickly I might add. And have had about I don't know 300-400 games under my belt as a counselor, and playing as Jason. I do not feel this is a true exploit. It's a risky tactic to delay him from the inevitable. It is not in any means an overpowered strategy in the least.

There's two major differences:

1.  In an open field, road, etc., Jason WILL catch up to even the fastest counselor eventually, since the player will eventually have to recharge their stamina.  And if Jason has smashed out the doors to the cabin they jump into, Jason has a shot at running in and grabbing them before they recharge, or forcing them to keep running with low stamina.  In the RAR scenario, I'll say it again:  Their stamina NEVER runs out.  Vanessa, Bugsy, or Tommy can't continuously run on an open road for 5-10 minutes without losing all of their stamina.  In RAR rooms, even the slow players can.  That's the flaw - the fact that it can continue forever without losing your stamina.

2.  Just because you can beat the exploit if you're good enough doesn't mean it's not an exploit.  I mean, when counselors are floating in the rafters in Packanack, IF you are good with knives, and IF you have enough of them, and IF the cheating counselor doesn't have a medic perk and/or multiple health sprays on them to keep healing the knife wounds, then yes, you can beat the Packanack exploit.  But it's still clearly a flaw in the game that should have been fixed ASAP.  Endless RAR without ever losing your stamina is just as much of a flaw that's being exploited.  If after a minute or two their stamina ran out and they had to stumble and do the slow "I'm tired" loop as Jason closed in, I'd have no problem with it, since it was just a short stall until you thought up a better option.  But as a 5-10 minute low-risk "run out the clock" option, it defeats the purpose of the game.

If we're being movie-realistic towards the character, when you're within five feet of Jason indoors, within a minute of the confrontation, a counselor should be forced to either juke Jason and escape, attack Jason, or fend off a Jason attack.  

"Endless avoidance with infinite stamina" should not be an option.

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25 minutes ago, AJLeatherman said:

There's two major differences:

1.  In an open field, road, etc., Jason WILL catch up to even the fastest counselor eventually, since the player will eventually have to recharge their stamina.  And if Jason has smashed out the doors to the cabin they jump into, Jason has a shot at running in and grabbing them before they recharge, or forcing them to keep running with low stamina.  In the RAR scenario, I'll say it again:  Their stamina NEVER runs out.  Vanessa, Bugsy, or Tommy can't continuously run on an open road for 5-10 minutes without losing all of their stamina.  In RAR rooms, even the slow players can.  That's the flaw - the fact that it can continue forever without losing your stamina.

2.  Just because you can beat the exploit if you're good enough doesn't mean it's not an exploit.  I mean, when counselors are floating in the rafters in Packanack, IF you are good with knives, and IF you have enough of them, and IF the cheating counselor doesn't have a medic perk and/or multiple health sprays on them to keep healing the knife wounds, then yes, you can beat the Packanack exploit.  But it's still clearly a flaw in the game that should have been fixed ASAP.  Endless RAR without ever losing your stamina is just as much of a flaw that's being exploited.  If after a minute or two their stamina ran out and they had to stumble and do the slow "I'm tired" loop as Jason closed in, I'd have no problem with it, since it was just a short stall until you thought up a better option.  But as a 5-10 minute low-risk "run out the clock" option, it defeats the purpose of the game.

If we're being movie-realistic towards the character, when you're within five feet of Jason indoors, within a minute of the confrontation, a counselor should be forced to either juke Jason and escape, attack Jason, or fend off a Jason attack.  

"Endless avoidance with infinite stamina" should not be an option.

I'm sorry to tell you this, but counselors do run out of stamina inside cabins, and when they do try to stop to get stamina, it's the perfect time to go for shift grab/attack. And the longer they are around Jason the slower their stamina refills. You have the ability to catch them, do it. Stop acting like it's impossible, you have like 20 shift attempts if not more in that 5 minutes time. It's great practice for you on trying to catch a counselor in any situation. Also I deff addressed the issue about running outside, I did say they just go through a window and regain lost stamina. 

Also stop calling it an exploit like it's the same thing as a bug. It's not the same situation as packanack's main house, or people getting stuck inside of tents, or them being in a hiding spot that Jason can't destroy. It's a strategy meant to stall for time, and isn't something that is so powerful that it needs to be addressed asap over these other issues. Not even over other bugs that this game currently has either. I'd much rather be able to destroy an open single window with a Jason who isn't part 6 instead of just swinging and getting stuck on the wall for example, than have this even looked at.

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1 hour ago, BloodyNights said:

I'm sorry to tell you this, but counselors do run out of stamina inside cabins, and when they do try to stop to get stamina, it's the perfect time to go for shift grab/attack. And the longer they are around Jason the slower their stamina refills.

Again, I'm talking about specific, first-person experience here:  If I'm playing as a running Jason, the counselor is running nonstop ahead of me, and they can run for 5-10 minutes uncaught and uninterrupted, their stamina is NOT running out, and that's the flaw.  I've explained that multiple times, but you just ignore that part because it doesn't fit your point.

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You have the ability to catch them, do it. Stop acting like it's impossible, you have like 20 shift attempts if not more in that 5 minutes time. It's great practice for you on trying to catch a counselor in any situation.

You shouldn't have to practice 20 times to catch a counselor on the other side of a couch or coffee table three feet away from you.  Once Jason is that close, it should be a Escape room/Fight Back/Get Grabbed scenario within a very short period of time.

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Also stop calling it an exploit like it's the same thing as a bug. It's not the same situation as packanack's main house, or people getting stuck inside of tents, or them being in a hiding spot that Jason can't destroy. It's a strategy meant to stall for time, and isn't something that is so powerful that it needs to be addressed asap over these other issues. Not even over other bugs that this game currently has either. I'd much rather be able to destroy an open single window with a Jason who isn't part 6 instead of just swinging and getting stuck on the wall for example, than have this even looked at.

A stall is temporary-it's not a "stall" if it can be utilized literally until time runs out, without having your stamina run out.  I'm not going to argue which flaws should be fixed in what order, because any and all glitch/bug/exploits should be addressed as soon as possible, but this is clearly another flaw on that list.  Maybe you're one of "those guys" who has to find a gimmick to last until time runs out just so you can pat yourself on the back and say you won, but personally I'd much rather enjoy a fun game where I get killed and lose, than trying to maintain a RAR couch loop for 10 minutes just so I can say I "won".

And yes, from a competitive standpoint, it's no different that hiding in the Packanack rafters until the clock runs out.  In both cases, you're using a gimmick to run out the clock rather than even trying to escape, call the cops, or kill Jason.  Sorry, but that's lame as hell - in both cases.

 

 

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On 5/30/2017 at 1:49 AM, Pyxis said:

Watching an epic battle between Jason and Vanessa, just running in circles around a couch. Maybe implement a way for Jason to bust up furniture? Something! This is dizzying!

 

 

 

 

I would like to see this and see the counselors luck come into play whether they trip or stub their toe while running around furniture in a chase such as this example.

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9 hours ago, BloodyNights said:

I'm sorry to tell you this, but counselors do run out of stamina inside cabins, and when they do try to stop to get stamina, it's the perfect time to go for shift grab/attack. And the longer they are around Jason the slower their stamina refills. You have the ability to catch them, do it. Stop acting like it's impossible, you have like 20 shift attempts if not more in that 5 minutes time. It's great practice for you on trying to catch a counselor in any situation. Also I deff addressed the issue about running outside, I did say they just go through a window and regain lost stamina. 

Also stop calling it an exploit like it's the same thing as a bug. It's not the same situation as packanack's main house, or people getting stuck inside of tents, or them being in a hiding spot that Jason can't destroy. It's a strategy meant to stall for time, and isn't something that is so powerful that it needs to be addressed asap over these other issues. Not even over other bugs that this game currently has either. I'd much rather be able to destroy an open single window with a Jason who isn't part 6 instead of just swinging and getting stuck on the wall for example, than have this even looked at.

You make it sound like it's easy to perform shift to catch them indoors. If that's the case then why have I personally seen (as well as personally experienced) so many players unable to do just that? Have you considered lag as a factor as well, that it just may not be possible other than getting lucky?

Just because you are able to shift 20 times in the space of 5 minutes doesn't mean it will amount to anything. Shift was not designed with an appropriate hit box for situations like that, it is most effective on a clear path and that's the best way to manage it. Like I've said before, no solution that requires a high skill level is a real solution, because it doesn't account for the average player who most likely won't be able to execute it.

It doesn't make sense to use it for practice purposes either, because the only thing you're practicing for is control of your character in a situation they were never designed for. It's an uphill battle with little benefit other than getting better at tackling this one specific exploit. Sounds like a waste of time to me.

And it is an exploit. It's not a bug like the others you mentioned, but it's not something that the design of the game intended for. Hence why window looping was patched up with a real solution, as well as fence looping. And the devs themselves labelled these exploits. And the solutions implemented do not rely on high skill to be functional, nor do they affect counselor balance because counselors do not need to rely on these tactics to survive. It's not strategy because there's no thought in it, nothing actually other than the right conditions and timing. 

Also regarding breaking open windows, simply get into combat stance and aim up.

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On 5/30/2017 at 5:06 AM, IH8YH said:

theres an easy solution......

leave the proximity and lull them into false safety. the Stalk mechanic helps with this.

 

but yeah i agree that furniture should be destructible or moveable when jason is in Rage mode.

I've actually used Stalk to obscenely good use. Just stand around a corner with sense active and stalk going and march out right behind them when they walk past you, 9 times out of 10, they never know you're there.

Also don't forget to use stalk in tandem with shift so that they think you used morph to go across the map.

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17 minutes ago, Daneasaur said:

I've actually used Stalk to obscenely good use. Just stand around a corner with sense active and stalk going and march out right behind them when they walk past you, 9 times out of 10, they never know you're there.

Also don't forget to use stalk in tandem with shift so that they think you used morph to go across the map.

That last sentence sound like it makes sense, but doesn't shift put an arrow on the map for the direction you're moving in? so when you land either outside the cabin, or inside the cabin around a corner, they'll see that red arrow on the map appear before you use stalk?

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17 minutes ago, Daneasaur said:

I've actually used Stalk to obscenely good use. Just stand around a corner with sense active and stalk going and march out right behind them when they walk past you, 9 times out of 10, they never know you're there.

Also don't forget to use stalk in tandem with shift so that they think you used morph to go across the map.

^^^^ This guy knows whats up.

 

my new specialty is exiting shift EXACTLY in front of an escaping car. fucks them up EVERY time :D

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Tables and wooden chairs should be able to break.

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On 5/30/2017 at 6:36 AM, Dadpool said:

Yes I agree. Though a very common trend is for them to use the archery deck on the Crystal Lake map. With Vanessa or Tommy it is damn near impossible to catch them and the total length of the deck almost exceeds shift preventing you from getting in front of them to use a shift grab. I'v witnessed this multiple times yesterday. 

I started to wonder about the archery deck. As it seems anywhere the counselors can't walk Jason can't walk either

So. Currently neither Jason or counselors can step 1 foot up onto it. Which I find hilarious

 

It looks like we found the new dinner table guys xD

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I hate this shit with a passion. Yes, it's "surviving" but it's not "playing" and it's certainly not "winning". When you continuously run in circles are objects, you (in my opinion) go from a counselor that's a viable threat to Jason to a counselor that's an obnoxiously annoying pain in the ass, nothing more. 

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Then depending on where you are the best thing to do is to play around it. If someone gives me the run around, I either shift and fake 'em out and grab their ass or I leave, allow them to try to go somewhere new and then kill them. I had one person playing Tiffany that kept running around furniture. Thought they were gonna do it the rest of the game even though I shit + grabbed them twice (once had a pocket knife, other time I couldn't activate the kill quick enough) but that third time I grabbed them, it was over. Best part? The match was ending as they were dying.

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On 5/30/2017 at 2:28 AM, Survival said:

I was always able to hit them even with my basic attack. I had several people taunting me "I could do this all day!" only to start screaming obscenities at me once I hit them and grabbed them.

Part of the reason I really like Part 6. The reach advantage helps a lot against the people who exploit environmental positioning of furniture. I wish you could have the option to give a couch or table a swift kick sending to sliding to a new position so they can't run around it anymore. Maybe a hold "A" like barricading a door, but it pushes the furniture into a new position that the counselor cannot move it.

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