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17 minutes ago, bewareofbears said:

Yep, there's literally no good reason for Jasons to not be able to use different weapons.

Seeing Part 6 use a machete would technically be false advertising if he wasn't able to in-game.

Exactly,i tought the same thing too,false advertising is not good for a game/movie.

If peoples see Part 6 using a machete or any other Jason's using this or that weapon in the trailers,then they will expect those Jason to actually use those weapons in-game,but then discover that they only have 1 weapon,these peoples wont take it well.

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10 hours ago, FreakyFrank1 said:

I would also like to point out that at the end of the announcement trailer,we see Part 6 Jason using a machete slashing at the 'early',now it could also be just for show and replicating that moment in the beginning of Part 6,but again i still think that animating all Jason models with different weapons would be fairly easy.

This whole 'placeholder' thing is a terrible excuse that is pretty much irrelevant anyway considering the things we have seen from previous trailers.

All Jason models are basically using the same mocap datas and 'skeletal structure from Kane Hodder,only the body shape is not exactly 100% the same,like the shoulder or the waist might be different a bit,but overall they all have the same size,the same walking animation,the same running or powerwalk animations,they can all do similar kills like the fireplace environmental kill or the sleeping bag kill or the crushing face against a wall or door kill,if all models can do the same things then that mean that they all share the same 'skeleton'/mocap datas.

They dont even need to ask Kane to reput the mocap suit for weapon animation,they only need to slightly adjust each models with the axe,machete,pickaxe and spear animation datas and there ya go it's done,wont even cost a cent to do.

And like i said,what's the point in having the farmer pitchfork or the tribal spear in the virtual cabins if they arent going to be in the actual game...

The 'placeholder' excuse is invalid.

It's not an excuse...  it's literally what it is.  Most of the trailers before the beta were created via placeholders.

 

All mocap sessions that we have seen shows Part 7 doing various things; that doesn't mean you can take Part 3 and slap it on to Part 7 since each weapon was mocapped with the Jason in question.  Previous trailers don't MEAN anything, because either the trailers were showing off kills or they were, again, using Placeholders.  I point you to the Global Reveal Trailer way back when, when Part 3 had the machete, but if you notice in that trailer Part 3 never actually runs, and my theory is that because they had Part 3 model but only Part 7's data and animations.

I fully agree that it was a bad idea for them to show off these weapons as though each of them were able to swap them.  But was it due to malice?  I doubt that.  It caused confusion, but otherwise the team was straightforward to us.

In the end it comes down to priority.  With so much to fix and add and balance the last thing that is on their mind at the moment is cosmetics... which, for Jason, weapons and kills are essentially cosmetics.  Prioritizing swapping weapons is like prioritizing optional cloths for counselors over fixing bugs and glitches and gameplay mechanics.  So I certainly do not mind waiting until post launch to get more weapons and I most certainly do not mind each Jason having unique weapons that only they can use, it makes the Jason unique on their own accord.  Now, I've said this before; I don't agree with a few weapons that are only specific to Jason, such as the machete, and I hope they make that available to all Jasons soon enough BUT I'm okay with only Part 6 being able to use the Fence Post (In the past I was against the idea of weapons specific to each Jason, but now I am for it) and Part 8 only uses the Fire Axe and Part 2 only gets to use the Pickaxe.  It makes each Jason more differentiated from each other.

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34 minutes ago, ResolutionBlaze said:

which, for Jason, weapons and kills are essentially cosmetics.  

Wha? The whole point of the game is to use weapons to kill counselors. Variety and canonicity of kills and weapons is a gameplay feature, not a cosmetic.

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15 minutes ago, Risinggrave said:

Wha? The whole point of the game is to use weapons to kill counselors. Variety and canonicity of kills and weapons is a gameplay feature, not a cosmetic.

And we already have said weapons, do we not?  Gameplay is fulfilled.  Anything further would be cosmetic.

It's cosmetic because it doesn't affect gameplay.  Kills and weapons are not gameplay features.  They are a requirement for gameplay, just like it's a requirement that Counselors wear cloths.  But adding additional things that only change the way things look rather than function is cosmetic.  So yes, adding more weapons and the ability to swap weapons and use different weapons with different kills is cosmetic, unless said weapon changes the way the game plays and functions, which no evidence thus far shows that future weapons will, nor do the current weapons.  If there are stat or gameplay changes the changes thus far are far to insignificant to be considered a genuine game-changer, so to speak

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7 minutes ago, ResolutionBlaze said:

And we already have said weapons, do we not?  Gameplay is fulfilled.  Anything further would be cosmetic.

It's cosmetic because it doesn't affect gameplay.  Kills and weapons are not gameplay features.  They are a requirement for gameplay, just like it's a requirement that Counselors wear cloths.  But adding additional things that only change the way things look rather than function is cosmetic.  So yes, adding more weapons and the ability to swap weapons and use different weapons with different kills is cosmetic, unless said weapon changes the way the game plays and functions, which no evidence thus far shows that future weapons will, nor do the current weapons.  If there are stat or gameplay changes the changes thus far are far to insignificant to be considered a genuine game-changer, so to speak.

Not exactly if we're going by the canon of the entire film series. By your logic we could dumb it down to all Jason skins only having one weapon and one kill animation and everything else is cosmetic. 

If this game had Jason swinging an ax and the counselor falling down and no other deaths, the game would bomb. Why? Because variety is necessary. I'll agree with you that you can technically make this game with one weapon and one kill animation, but for the game to actually be successful it needs to bring the feel of the mythos. 

With as many people who believe that lacking certain weapons, or the inability to use a variety of weapons as Jason does throughout the series, to be a liability, I think Gun should look to it with as much care as they would bugs and the like. 

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4 minutes ago, Risinggrave said:

Not exactly if we're going by the canon of the entire film series. By your logic we could dumb it down to all Jason skins only having one weapon and one kill animation and everything else is cosmetic. 

If this game had Jason swinging an ax and the counselor falling down and no other deaths, the game would bomb. Why? Because variety is necessary. I'll agree with you that you can technically make this game with one weapon and one kill animation, but for the game to actually be successful it needs to bring the feel of the mythos. 

With as many people who believe that lacking certain weapons, or the inability to use a variety of weapons as Jason does throughout the series, to be a liability, I think Gun should look to it with as much care as they would bugs and the like. 

Everything else WOULD be cosmetic.  Because they are.  By definition.  Having only one kill for the whole game may be lame, but that doesn't make future features any less cosmetic.  So by my logic, yes, that would be correct, and I see nothing wrong with that logic.  You made the presumption that my logic was absurd.  However, you haven't shown me why it is absurd.  In fact you seem to agree with me.

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Unlimited customization isn't always a good thing. If each Jason can choose among all the weapons, then you can have the community using a limited number of them that they prefer, especially if those weapons have unique attributes. Then you have everyone walking around using the same weapons, which would be lame.

Just like how everyone was playing Vanessa in the beta. You have to deal with community heavily favoring characters and Jasons, and if you introduce weapons too then you have to deal with that.

 

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1 minute ago, Plox said:

Unlimited customization isn't always a good thing. If each Jason can choose among all the weapons, then you can have the community using a limited number of them that they prefer, especially if those weapons have unique attributes. Then you have everyone walking around using the same weapons, which would be lame.

 

I'm not sure I see the problem with that. People use the weapons they like...there's a negative to that?

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1 minute ago, DialM said:

I'm not sure I see the problem with that. People use the weapons they like...there's a negative to that?

A lack of variety of experiences in the game.

It is lame when everyone played as Vanessa. It would be lame if everyone only used 1 Jason. It would be lame if everyone used the same weapon.

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Just now, Plox said:

A lack of variety of experiences in the game.

It is lame when everyone played as Vanessa. It would be lame if everyone only used 1 Jason. It would be lame if everyone used the same weapon.

Weapons don't affect stats though.

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4 minutes ago, ResolutionBlaze said:

Everything else WOULD be cosmetic.  Because they are.  By definition.  Having only one kill for the whole game may be lame, but that doesn't make future features any less cosmetic.  So by my logic, yes, that would be correct, and I see nothing wrong with that logic.  You made the presumption that my logic was absurd.  However, you haven't shown me why it is absurd.  In fact you seem to agree with me.

I agree that it can be done, but it will be disasterous to do so. In order to make a successful game, you need to have all of the elements in play. 

You're looking at it from a tech standpoint. I'm looking at it from a bottom line success standpoint.

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Well, someone was talking about a certain weapon possibly having more range and things like that. If that were the case then the community could easily heavily favor one weapon over the rest. They could still do that if they decided that a certain weapon had the coolest kills. I'm not saying that you would definitely run into this problem if you gave everyone a choice, but it is a possibility. Sometimes having less choice is a good thing in games, even though it seems counter-intuitive.

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12 minutes ago, Risinggrave said:

I agree that it can be done, but it will be disasterous to do so. In order to make a successful game, you need to have all of the elements in play. 

You're looking at it from a tech standpoint. I'm looking at it from a bottom line success standpoint.

I don't think our ideas are as different as you believe.

I agree lacking variation would devastate the game, and we need variation.  Although I don't think just making everything goes magically makes variation any better.  In fact I'd argue that allowing each Jason to have any weapon they choose will drastically hurt the game.  First of all, because the combinations would simply look strange.  Second of all, because ironically that would create less variation in the long run.

The time it would take to allow each Jason their own weapon and have it function properly could slow down the potential for weapons.  Making several weapons unique and several weapons not would make perfect variation.  That's because it would make each Jason unique in their own right.  The weapons compliment the skins, and other weapons could be used across the board, and more unique weapons, so on and so forth.

The best way to go forward is this:

- Post-launch, each Jason should be given another unique weapon, and several weapons that they can all use, or only a handful can use.

- Each Jason should have access to a spear-like weapon, be it a pitchfork or spear itself, depending on which suits them the best or what they used in the film.

- All Jasons should have access to a machete.

The weapons can bring value to the Jason skins.  That makes the skins more unique because they have access to weapons only they can use.  Once you get rid of those boarders the other Jasons have no uniqueness besides look and stats.

Creating scarcity in weapons and kills makes them more desirable and gives each Jason type their own personality.  it is at that point when it stops just being a skin.

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I'm pretty sure they want each Jason to have at least one or 2 unique kills, hence the whole kill unlock system for each individual Jason. They don't share unlocks, that's why they all have their own weapon. People are focusing more on the weapon models than the kills. As I said before it would be pretty silly seeing the corkscrew kill with an axe just because someone wants to change J2s weapon model....it's about the kills and not the weapons imo.

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On 5/3/2017 at 11:34 PM, GunMedia_Ben said:

Guess everyone's gonna have to play and find out. 

I'm shocked this didn't end the thread. If Ben didn't pop in I would say no shot to swapping weapons. Now I'm 78% sure it's in the game.

Guess we gotta play the game and find out though,for sure.

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I think we should just Have It One unique weapon, one machete, and then can find other weapons across the map

it be better then just swaping the weapon competely and would be the best alternative

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On 5/6/2017 at 5:27 PM, ResolutionBlaze said:

I agree lacking variation would devastate the game, and we need variation.  Although I don't think just making everything goes magically makes variation any better.  In fact I'd argue that allowing each Jason to have any weapon they choose will drastically hurt the game.  First of all, because the combinations would simply look strange.  Second of all, because ironically that would create less variation in the long run.

That's the rub. The story is simple; guy kills people with various implements. The execution (the puns!!) is really where gun needs to step up. If things look strange, that's on them to fix. While I wouldn't say it's devastated the game, many fans run the gamut from annoyed to rage over this. As to how more options creates less variation, you have me stumped. Unless you're saying "We'll force them to play X skin if they want to use this weapon!" That's a shit tactic.

On 5/6/2017 at 5:27 PM, ResolutionBlaze said:

The time it would take to allow each Jason their own weapon and have it function properly could slow down the potential for weapons.  Making several weapons unique and several weapons not would make perfect variation.  That's because it would make each Jason unique in their own right.  The weapons compliment the skins, and other weapons could be used across the board, and more unique weapons, so on and so forth.

 

How so? Because Kane is the same and all the sprites are using his frame, I don't see how it would be an issue. 

Making several weapons unique and several average would indeed be a good step toward pleasing the fanbase. Nobody cares JgtH Jason has an exclusive axe. Nobody wants to use the damned thing is the problem. 

On 5/6/2017 at 5:27 PM, ResolutionBlaze said:

The best way to go forward is this:

- Post-launch, each Jason should be given another unique weapon, and several weapons that they can all use, or only a handful can use.

- Each Jason should have access to a spear-like weapon, be it a pitchfork or spear itself, depending on which suits them the best or what they used in the film.

- All Jasons should have access to a machete.

The weapons can bring value to the Jason skins.  That makes the skins more unique because they have access to weapons only they can use.  Once you get rid of those boarders the other Jasons have no uniqueness besides look and stats.

Creating scarcity in weapons and kills makes them more desirable and gives each Jason type their own personality.  it is at that point when it stops just being a skin.

- Reasonable. 

- Fair Enough.

- Fucking A right. 

The rest of it is decent enough for me. I don't think the "personality" of Jason should be pushed via his weapon because in the source material that was never a limitation. JgtH had his gnarliest kill in the movie (under the guise of the coroner) with a fencepole. Outside of that he used a machete when in his "real form" The game doesn't represent him accurately at all as far as weapons are concerned. 

I see Jason's personality being pushed via his stats. 

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1 hour ago, Risinggrave said:

That's the rub. The story is simple; guy kills people with various implements. The execution (the puns!!) is really where gun needs to step up. If things look strange, that's on them to fix. While I wouldn't say it's devastated the game, many fans run the gamut from annoyed to rage over this. As to how more options creates less variation, you have me stumped. Unless you're saying "We'll force them to play X skin if they want to use this weapon!" That's a shit tactic.

How so? Because Kane is the same and all the sprites are using his frame, I don't see how it would be an issue. 

Making several weapons unique and several average would indeed be a good step toward pleasing the fanbase. Nobody cares JgtH Jason has an exclusive axe. Nobody wants to use the damned thing is the problem. 

- Reasonable. 

- Fair Enough.

- Fucking A right. 

The rest of it is decent enough for me. I don't think the "personality" of Jason should be pushed via his weapon because in the source material that was never a limitation. JgtH had his gnarliest kill in the movie (under the guise of the coroner) with a fencepole. Outside of that he used a machete when in his "real form" The game doesn't represent him accurately at all as far as weapons are concerned. 

I see Jason's personality being pushed via his stats. 

Two things:

YOU don't want the damn thing.  I am perfectly fine with the axe we have, even if I would prefer other weapons in its place.

If you want something else, tough cookies until the game releases more weapons.

I mean, Dead By Daylight had one weapon per character.  If you didn't like the weapon they have, well, gonna have to wait until they release one you want.  Which is why I disagreed with Gun's decision to make the machete only playable by P7... unless they surprise us with a new J7 weapon and make everyone's weapon switchable to a machete, which would be a pleasant surprise I suppose.  Ben's comment simply confused me more than got me interested because it seems like four people are suggesting different things.

Also, the machete is so iconic to Jason that most everyone would be okay using it by default if they don't like the unique weapon they use.

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2 hours ago, ResolutionBlaze said:

Two things:

YOU don't want the damn thing.  I am perfectly fine with the axe we have, even if I would prefer other weapons in its place.

You've also never seen any of the F13 movies outside of part 3. You're not as invested in this decision as many of the rest of us. Also, it's not just me who doesn't care for it. Make a poll, and the percentages will show that a majority doesn't care for the double headed axe. 

3 hours ago, ResolutionBlaze said:

If you want something else, tough cookies until the game releases more weapons.

True. Tough cookies for the player base and for Gun too. Because they've been called out on it. For a guy who jumps into threads critical of Gun, and who can't stand us criticizing them, It's tough cookies for you as well. Hardtack for everybody. Yay.

3 hours ago, ResolutionBlaze said:

I mean, Dead By Daylight had one weapon per character.  If you didn't like the weapon they have, well, gonna have to wait until they release one you want.  

This isn't DBD. Why compare the two? I could go back and say the Nintendo only had 8 bit graphics. It wouldn't excuse this game if it looked like LJN's. 

As far as the "you're gonna have to wait" bit. Thank you, Captain Obvious. After my time machine broke down I figured my plot to retroactively change all the weapons to being purple dildo's was going to fail.

3 hours ago, ResolutionBlaze said:

 Which is why I disagreed with Gun's decision to make the machete only playable by P7... unless they surprise us with a new J7 weapon and make everyone's weapon switchable to a machete, which would be a pleasant surprise I suppose.  Ben's comment simply confused me more than got me interested because it seems like four people are suggesting different things.

Also, the machete is so iconic to Jason that most everyone would be okay using it by default if they don't like the unique weapon they use.

And this you and I agree with.

I'm feeling meh about the gameplay. I'll see what the lay of the land is when it's released and deal with things as they are. 

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2 hours ago, Risinggrave said:

You've also never seen any of the F13 movies outside of part 3. You're not as invested in this decision as many of the rest of us. Also, it's not just me who doesn't care for it. Make a poll, and the percentages will show that a majority doesn't care for the double headed axe. 

True. Tough cookies for the player base and for Gun too. Because they've been called out on it. For a guy who jumps into threads critical of Gun, and who can't stand us criticizing them, It's tough cookies for you as well. Hardtack for everybody. Yay.

This isn't DBD. Why compare the two? I could go back and say the Nintendo only had 8 bit graphics. It wouldn't excuse this game if it looked like LJN's. 

As far as the "you're gonna have to wait" bit. Thank you, Captain Obvious. After my time machine broke down I figured my plot to retroactively change all the weapons to being purple dildo's was going to fail.

And this you and I agree with.

I'm feeling meh about the gameplay. I'll see what the lay of the land is when it's released and deal with things as they are. 

My movie-going experience has nothing to do with the opinion on the weapon itself.  And how would it?  Part 9 has used nothing but a machete in Jason form.  My lack of experience of the movies is necessary, like it or not.  I hold opinions and views that are not clouded by, "well this is how the movies go so that's how the games should be" which is the case for people justifying their many horrible gameplay ideas and decisions in the past and even now.  I'm no superhero savior but I give light on issues that aren't inflated or manipulated by nostalgia goggles, which oddly enough you criticize me for.  Appeal To Experience.  You disregard my opinions because "I haven't seen the films" which is fallacious and that isn't the first time people have done that on this forum.  "Come back when you watch the films" yes, well, come back when your arguments aren't fallaciously presumed.

I said I didn't mind the axe.  You became triggered and told me that it was because I didn't watch the films, which I am deeply confused about.  How does watching the flims affect my opinion about a killer using a particular object, even though this very killer has been using a myriad of objects to kill with across all films?  What's wrong with the axe?  Is it not unique to the film enough?  If so, then why do you want weapons that other Jasons haven't used in each other's films to be able to be used?  You'll have to explain why your experience of this weapon is somehow more objective and unbiased than my view, so that we can determine rightly if it's purely preferential.  If so, then there is no point discussing it any further.

Which furthermore makes your "tough on Gun" comment odd as well.  Your criticism is purely preferential; you have nothing to call them out on.  Because they did nothing wrong except choose the wrong thing that many members of the forum hardly cared about.  And that isn't to say preferences can't change.  Do you remember when a bunch of people have been making fun of Savini's Jason upon first reveal?  They picked it apart.  After seeing it in action, that criticism seemed to have silenced or even flipped on its head.   So once again, you'll have to explain why your criticism is warranted and why it deserves unquestionable treatment that you seem to criticize me for not having, even though I agree with many things people on these forums do.  But  But if I don't agree with everything or God forbid I have my own opinion on matters that I wish to share on a public discussion forum, then I'm suddenly anti-criticism.  A useful tool for those who can't argue for their criticisms.

And on topic of Dead By Daylight; you're right.  Why would I compare two games about serial killers slaughtering innocent teenagers in various settings that each fanbase wants interchangeable weapons in?  Makes no fucking sense for the context of the discussion, yeah?

 

 

 

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