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Tommy86's Combat Stance Change Notes

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All Credit to @Tommy86

1.39 CS change notes -
* Does NOT affect executing actions upon entering CS. Can still swing or block upon entering with the same speed pre-patch

* DOES affect the timing of being able to exit CS. Cannot exit for approx. 0.5 seconds upon initiating CS, roughly the time of the camera zoom

* Does NOT affect the transition of exiting CS itself, provided 0.5s from entry have been allowed. If they have not, exit inputs will not register and cause further delay due to additional input(s) needed. Learn the timing

* Tech such as block grab is still viable. CS can be entered at beginning of swing instead of just before contact (swing cannot be cancelled hence the result is the same). Transition to action such as grab is still same speed as pre-patch upon exit

* CS change is meaningless for removing sliding, as the activation inputs only require the player to be in the CS state, regardless of how long they sit in it.

update edit:

* New bug that allows sprinting in CS. This is because Sprint is no longer registered as an exit button during the mandatory 0.5s window, so instead it boosts CS movement to the same speed as a jog. I’m assuming this is something unwanted.

@mattshotcha

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So basically nothing you guys do to combat stance is going to get rid of sliding, because you're already in combat stance to start the slide. As long as the sprint, swing, block inputs are pressed it doesn't matter if there's a .5 second delay or a 1.5 second delay on exiting combat stance. The slide should fire off regardless.

To truly get rid of sliding, things like not being able to input swing and block at the same time should be looked at. Again there doesn't need to be a delay. If you're going from swing to block, or block to swing, those inputs should be smooth and fast.

But there's no reason I should be able to press both inputs at the same time and get results like sliding and bulldozer. I'm sure you're not familiar with bulldozer so I'll link a few clips.

Basically bulldozer is another glitch from pressing block and swing at the same time. In fact you're actually doing a heavy attack while in block. Since you're blocking, it's an invisible swing. Again this would go away if you couldn't enter block and swing inputs at the same time.

If that's not a viable option, I would try making it so you can't go from block to sprint. At all. That is an unnecessary transition tbh. It's not a problem for a player to have to drop block to sprint out of combat stance, so I don't think anyone would complain. Again, no delay in inputs, just making it so you have to drop block to sprint.

Delays in inputs won't help. In fact, they'll only bring on new glitches like being able to sprint in combat stance. I'm sure that if you lose the current cs/sprint delays that glitch would go away.

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I've shared all this info with the team.

I'm going to bring it up here again, though I know the response it will get. This is why JasonKillsBugs.com is so damned important. I don't know how many different ways I have to illustrate that, but we need this type of stuff as it gets uncovered, in detail. It's incredibly simple to submit a report, then the team has the details, has the ability to follow up with players who've uncovered these things. We have tracking and documentation and details instead of simply having screaming players going "FIX SLIDING!!!" with zero info on the issue at hand.

We even have players trying to withhold info as a negotiation. This is absurd.

In testing and reporting the best we could identify was that combat stance rapid status changes were playing into a whole host of bugs, which we are still investigating in tandem with new info. But as for why any of this info should be new at this point, I can't begin to speculate. To this day, we have ZERO tickets on this "bulldozing" issue mentioned here. And the tickets on sliding that we did have prior to the patch have not had even close to the level of detail that we see now being shared, after patch.

This is an issue and a cooperation problem born out of wanting to protect these methods, despite them infuriating the common players. So average joe gamer who runs into a guy sliding reports the sliding with no idea how it's being done. Whisper networks of players who know these moves crop up, but don't want to share with the team. More and more public lobbies see these behaviors, report the players using them for cheating. The issue hits a critical mass where we need to act. We take a bug or "tech" as you call them and have to try and repro internally as best we can. The result is the Combat Stance changes.

Now, we have a pile of new info to sort through only because the players using these techniques are suddenly motivated to share this info because they feel we made the wrong change.

I'm not pushing this responsibility onto players, what I am saying is that we need to cooperate better, for the sake of BOTH you as players and the team trying to tackle these issues. All of this means very little considering where we are with F13 and the final patch being what we're working out. But consider this my plea to just report the info you might have into our system so we all can stop running in circles around each other.

I've sent this thread directly to the team, but again, without a ticket it's a copy paste of a thread link, not a ticket in a system DESIGNED to facilitate these interactions.

EDIT: I understand that some of you might have thought you were "protecting" a tactic like "bulldozing" by not reporting it. You weren't. Plain and simple. Just as "sliding" was a protected tactic that we couldn't source reliable info on, it inevitably became widespread in matches. What happens when it becomes widespread in matches? The community that isn't in the know reports it to us as players cheating with zero details. That raises it up the food chain of issues until we have to make a change to mitigate it. We have to make that change with limited info and limited details. That should highlight the concept I'm trying to illustrate about "protecting" a "technique" actually working out worse for all.

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5 minutes ago, mattshotcha said:

I've shared all this info with the team.

I'm going to bring it up here again, though I know the response it will get. This is why JasonKillsBugs.com is so damned important. I don't know how many different ways I have to illustrate that, but we need this type of stuff as it gets uncovered, in detail. It's incredibly simple to submit a report, then the team has the details, has the ability to follow up with players who've uncovered these things. We have tracking and documentation and details instead of simply having screaming players going "FIX SLIDING!!!" with zero info on the issue at hand.

We even have players trying to withhold info as a negotiation. This is absurd.

In testing and reporting the best we could identify was that combat stance rapid status changes were playing into a whole host of bugs, which we are still investigating in tandem with new info. But as for why any of this info should be new at this point, I can't begin to speculate. To this day, we have ZERO tickets on this "bulldozing" issue mentioned here. And the tickets on sliding that we did have prior to the patch have not had even close to the level of detail that we see now being shared, after patch.

This is an issue and a cooperation problem born out of wanting to protect these methods, despite them infuriating the common players. So average joe gamer who runs into a guy sliding reports the sliding with no idea how it's being done. Whisper networks of players who know these moves crop up, but don't want to share with the team. More and more public lobbies see these behaviors, report the players using them for cheating. The issue hits a critical mass where we need to act. We take a bug or "tech" as you call them and have to try and repro internally as best we can. The result is the Combat Stance changes.

Now, we have a pile of new info to sort through only because the players using these techniques are suddenly motivated to share this info because they feel we made the wrong change.

I'm not pushing this responsibility onto players, what I am saying is that we need to cooperate better, for the sake of BOTH you as players and the team trying to tackle these issues. All of this means very little considering where we are with F13 and the final patch being what we're working out. But consider this my plea to just report the info you might have into our system so we all can stop running in circles around each other.

I've sent this thread directly to the team, but again, without a ticket it's a copy paste of a thread link, not a ticket in a system DESIGNED to facilitate these interactions.

To be fair, I play Friday all the time and I rarely see any sliding going on at all. All the glitches I've helped you guys with so far have been shared on a most important to least important basis based on what I see playing almost every day. Just before this patch 99 percent of the glitches I've seen in game are map glitches and bed glitches.

I know you guys hear a lot about sliding, but I just never saw it in game nearly often enough to even understand why there are so many complaints about it.

That being said, I'm not advocating for it, nor trying to hold it as a bargaining chip. I know you've been getting blown up by messages since the patch and suddenly have every top tier player crawling out of the woodwork to offer suggestions and/or trade info to keep other exploits in play. 

I simply always focused my attention to the things I saw most often, and the glitches I knew you guys were stuck on based on what I've heard on the forums. So that's why I offered detailed insight into sliding just now.

I didn't report bulldozer because literally nobody does it. I was simply showing that there's more than one glitch caused by the same base inputs of entering block and swing at the same time.

Anyway, not to ramble on and on, I can submit reports for every single glitch I can think of if you'd like, but most of them are harmless little things that have little effect on playability. I mean, how much of this stuff do you guys have time and resources to mess with? 

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12 minutes ago, Somethin Cool said:

To be fair, I play Friday all the time and I rarely see any sliding going on at all. All the glitches I've helped you guys with so far have been shared on a most important to least important basis based on what I see playing almost every day. Just before this patch 99 percent of the glitches I've seen in game are map glitches and bed glitches.

I know you guys hear a lot about sliding, but I just never saw it in game nearly often enough to even understand why there are so many complaints about it.

That being said, I'm not advocating for it, nor trying to hold it as a bargaining chip. I know you've been getting blown up by messages since the patch and suddenly have every top tier player crawling out of the woodwork to offer suggestions and/or trade info to keep other exploits in play. 

I simply always focused my attention to the things I saw most often, and the glitches I knew you guys were stuck on based on what I've heard on the forums. So that's why I offered detailed insight into sliding just now.

I didn't report bulldozer because literally nobody does it. I was simply showing that there's more than one glitch caused by the same base inputs of entering block and swing at the same time.

Anyway, not to ramble on and on, I can submit reports for every single glitch I can think of if you'd like, but most of them are harmless little things that have little effect on playability. I mean, how much of this stuff do you guys have time and resources to mess with? 

Hey, I don't mean my reply to sound directed specifically at you or at the OP or Tommy. I am sorry if that was how I made it sound. It's a big problem across the community, as you even said. Every player is coming out of the woodwork with new info, holding back info, or flat out bargaining for bugs. It's crazy right now.

This info here has been forwarded, if you think any details have been omitted, please do send it over to JKB. But I've already shared this as well with them, as it sounds like we may be able to 2 for 1 it with what we are looking at right now.

And I also want to note that I appreciate this being shared AT ALL. I don't mean to sound like I am not appreciative that at the least we now have the info. 

So thank you to @GeneiJin @Tommy86 and @Somethin Cool 

Your insight is much appreciated.

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2 minutes ago, mattshotcha said:

Hey, I don't mean my reply to sound directed specifically at you or at the OP or Tommy. I am sorry if that was how I made it sound. It's a big problem across the community, as you even said. Every player is coming out of the woodwork with new info, holding back info, or flat out bargaining for bugs. It's crazy right now.

This info here has been forwarded, if you think any details have been omitted, please do send it over to JKB. But I've already shared this as well with them, as it sounds like we may be able to 2 for 1 it with what we are looking at right now.

And I also want to note that I appreciate this being shared AT ALL. I don't mean to sound like I am not appreciative that at the least we now have the info. 

So thank you to @GeneiJin @Tommy86 and @Somethin Cool 

Your insight is much appreciated.

3 for 1 if you can get rid of the combat stance delay. Because that's what's causing the block while sprinting issue as well. Anyway, I think that about covers it as far as sliding. I don't know if any of my suggestions can be implemented or not. I don't know rat shit from Rice Krispies when it comes to programming. I'm just the guy that plays the game way too much and has a knack for button mashing and remembering my inputs if something happens. But I really do hope it helps.

As far as everything else, I think the rest of the patch is working as intended. I know for a fact that abduction is gone. Even off host inputs. Abduction does technically still work off host, meaning you can abduct, but you're now rubber banded exactly to where you began the abduction. So you jump out, but jump right back to where you started, making it pointless to do. 

Pocketknife duplication is also gone. So is using firecrackers and losing your pocket knife. I've heard conflicting stories about bed glitching and some out of map glitches so I'll be getting on and testing them later. I'll submit reports if I find anything, and if not I'll let you know here.

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4 minutes ago, Somethin Cool said:

3 for 1 if you can get rid of the combat stance delay. Because that's what's causing the block while sprinting issue as well. Anyway, I think that about covers it as far as sliding. I don't know if any of my suggestions can be implemented or not. I don't know rat shit from Rice Krispies when it comes to programming. I'm just the guy that plays the game way too much and has a knack for button mashing and remembering my inputs if something happens. But I really do hope it helps.

As far as everything else, I think the rest of the patch is working as intended. I know for a fact that abduction is gone. Even off host inputs. Abduction does technically still work off host, meaning you can abduct, but you're now rubber banded exactly to where you began the abduction. So you jump out, but jump right back to where you started, making it pointless to do. 

Pocketknife duplication is also gone. So is using firecrackers and losing your pocket knife. I've heard conflicting stories about bed glitching and some out of map glitches so I'll be getting on and testing them later. I'll submit reports if I find anything, and if not I'll let you know here.

Keep in mind that it can still be possible to make it LOOK like you bed glitched. But the counselor is able to be killed normally. This is partly due to ping, if I'm not mistaken. So some folks have gotten it to happen like the bug and claimed it's not fixed, but they're kill-able. 

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3 minutes ago, mattshotcha said:

Keep in mind that it can still be possible to make it LOOK like you bed glitched. But the counselor is able to be killed normally. This is partly due to ping, if I'm not mistaken. So some folks have gotten it to happen like the bug and claimed it's not fixed, but they're kill-able. 

I hope that's all it is. That glitch was annoying asf when it worked right. Even knowing all the tricks that I know.

Did you guys work on Higgins Small rock glitch at all? I didn't specifically see it in the patch notes, but that was one of the more common ones I've seen pre patch.

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1 hour ago, mattshotcha said:

.We even have players trying to withhold info as a negotiation. This is absurd.

And even if you gave into their demands, they'd have something else to complain and "negotiate" for. Those people don't care about fair gameplay, they just want to feel like they're important because their lives are meaningless.

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1 minute ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

And even if you gave into their demands, they'd have something else to complain and "negotiate" for. Those people don't care about fair gameplay, they just want to feel like they're important because their lives are meaningless.

They want what everyone wants. An advantage to their favor. Look at every single complaint on the forums. Here's the mentality:

When I'm Jason I want to be an unstoppable killing machine.

When I'm counselor I want to survive every single match.

Regardless of the skill level of the competition. And this is the mentality of every player. Whether they use exploits or not.

The only reason they're coming forward at all is because combat stance doesn't work good enough for competitive play. Jason was already severely outmatched before the patch. But trying to trade info to keep other glitches, or lose rage mode is ridiculous.

And to be completely honest, most of those players have no idea how these glitches actually work anyway. So you can take any suggestions you get from them with a grain of salt. Pretty much any glitch and competitive strategy that's used today came from the same four or five players that actually know what they're talking about. The rest are just mimicking what they've seen and heard.

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@mattshotcha

Thank you for directing the info and your dedication to it. I know your post wasn’t directed specifically at us, but just to shed some light on the topic so you can better understand how there came to be the situation you’re identifying in the first place.

I will start by saying that JKB unfortunately became somewhat of a joke among the community, due to earning a reputation of being ineffective. And I’m sure reports with nothing but “FIX SLIDING” are a big part of that. But even if it were to be explained as “counselor is teleporting” or something equally basic is nowhere near good enough either. Someone without understanding of the mechanics cannot even begin to explain it, so it becomes a guessing game.

That’s where people like myself and my peers come in. For a time, Illfonic did in fact have a steady stream of info from a small dedicated group of us. We had a dev hanging out in our discord who received technical knowledge of every new thing we’d find and pass it on. But even with an abundance of info many issues were just handled incorrectly or not at all. 

As far as Gun was concerned back then, their general attitude was “we know better”. The casual players always earned more of their attention, despite the glaring issue of not having a deep understanding of the game. There was a general distrust due to differences of opinion regarding changes / fixes and ultimately some of what remains broken or detrimental to gameplay is a result of that.

Among many other bugs, the full info for Sliding for example was provided as early as sometime around LAUNCH and throughout the game’s life. And yet it became a running joke that sliding had become a “feature” of the game since it remained since launch despite the knowledge provided to remove it. 

This is just from my experience and the circles I’ve been in, but I’m certain a lot of people were burned in regards to long standing issues with the game that were either mismanaged or not even acknowledged. IMO that is the reason for the divide between developer and playerbase and why many just gave up on trying to reach out and provide info. I will say there is nothing worse than being told to go to JKB when you know that either a) that process has already taken place with zero result or b) is not entirely applicable. In order for accurate repro and tackling more complex issues, a conversation with knowledgeable players is most likely needed for the best approach.

You are correct that there is the aspect of players “protecting” certain things in the game, but that is a whole other conversation.

I do appreciate that you are making an effort to rectify problems with the game, and thank you for being respectful and acknowledging our efforts as well. While I’m not around much these days, I fully trust GeneiJin and Somethin Cool to provide any additional help / info on this. I wish you good luck with it all.

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@mattshotcha

Overall, sliding is a rare exploit.  Yes, causal will run into 150s spamming the shit out of it occasionally, but thats still only a very small percentage of the player base, and likely will drop with the removal of dedicated servers. Players learn who to avoid and without dedicated servers, likely more private groups will form for stable games.  Because its somewhat hard to perform, ether needs to be practiced or with macro/chronos, compromising combat stance, an intended mechanic, to be less responsive or useless in a pinch should not be the answer.  

Personally, at this point, I don't believe an effort to remove it is worth it, especially with the dual nature of bug fixes (fix something leads to other breaks).  If there was anything simple I'd look at to address it, I would just remove the "stamina lock" when counselors swing.  It would not at all remove sliding, but it would ensure that stamina is drained while preforming it, limiting it usefulness and prevent spamming it to achieve pseudo infinite stamina.

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1 hour ago, GeneiJin said:

Overall, sliding is a rare exploit.

Not on PC trust me.There is a certain player on PC that I encounter quite often who uses a macro to do it from the start of the match till the end. I will not violate forum rules and name and shame but I can supply a partial video of this player if you want in a private message.He also uses hacks as he gets out of grabs with no pocket knife instantly and he is still not banned as I submitted my evidence to JKB.

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41 minutes ago, TimDuke 01 said:

Not on PC trust me.There is a certain player on PC that I encounter quite often who uses a macro to do it from the start of the match till the end. I will not violate forum rules and name and shame but I can supply a partial video of this player if you want in a private message.He also uses hacks as he gets out of grabs with no pocket knife instantly and he is still not banned as I submitted my evidence to JKB.

Submitting to JKB for a ban has a whole set of rules involved before we can act on something. It's a wholly separate topic to bug reporting.

I just want to note that because if we're in a discussion revolving around the effectiveness of the support site, we should be clear to keep these things separate.

All in all, this has been a good discussion. I've got info to the team, we're in the investigation phase and while that may seem like things are slowing down, it's just the work taking place. I'll share more on our findings as soon as I have it.

I've been in close contact with a few players that have some keen details on these things. And things like what we've discussed here have some other wheels turning for the future of Gun and our processes for reporting this stuff. I appreciate this discourse. Thanks, gang.

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7 hours ago, Somethin Cool said:

To be fair, I play Friday all the time and I rarely see any sliding going on at all. All the glitches I've helped you guys with so far have been shared on a most important to least important basis based on what I see playing almost every day. Just before this patch 99 percent of the glitches I've seen in game are map glitches and bed glitches.

I know you guys hear a lot about sliding, but I just never saw it in game nearly often enough to even understand why there are so many complaints about it.

I was curious to something in regards to sliding. I have to admit my ignorance to it, as I've only ever countered a 'slider' twice while playing Jason. (Seen a lot more players do it while playing counselor) Does using this sliding technique affect the counselors mobility or ability to react as quickly? Both times I encountered a 'slider', I had no trouble running them down and dispatching either one of them. Two relatively basic shift grabs. Honestly, I was more disappointed how easy it was than irritated at the blatant cheating. Couldn't decide if these two were just amateurs at it, or if this exploit was even worth the effort against any Jason who knows what he's doing.

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58 minutes ago, I'm Not a Goalie said:

Does using this sliding technique affect the counselors mobility or ability to react as quickly?

Not at all. You can slide in any direction too. And as long as Jason's ping is higher than yours, you disappear on his screen. If your ping is higher than the Jason's, it just looks like they're sprinting.

58 minutes ago, I'm Not a Goalie said:

Both times I encountered a 'slider', I had no trouble running them down and dispatching either one of them. Two relatively basic shift grabs. Honestly, I was more disappointed how easy it was than irritated at the blatant cheating.

It's not hard to catch them if you know what's going on. First, they're still on the map whether you can see them or not. And they're moving at the counselors sprint speed. If you have a good idea where they're going, say through a doorway you can toss out a grab whether you can see them or not. Second, don't attack the start up animation. Sliding has a start up animation from Jason's point of view of a counselor standing in place swinging. This is just a visual bug. They're not really there anymore. Don't waste any time, or throwing knives for that matter, on that. Wait for the end of the slide to attack. There will be a short window where you can land throwing knives while they reset the slide.

58 minutes ago, I'm Not a Goalie said:

Couldn't decide if these two were just amateurs at it, or if this exploit was even worth the effort against any Jason who knows what he's doing.

The only thing that really makes it worth doing is it temporarily glitches stamina depletion because stamina doesn't drain while you're swinging a weapon. So if you're good at sliding, you can slide around the map non stop without ever running out of stamina. Which brings me to my next point:

4 hours ago, GeneiJin said:

  If there was anything simple I'd look at to address it, I would just remove the "stamina lock" when counselors swing.  It would not at all remove sliding, but it would ensure that stamina is drained while preforming it, limiting it usefulness and prevent spamming it to achieve pseudo infinite stamina

The only way to do that is to make it so stamina drains when you swing a weapon. In which case even if it did, it most likely wouldn't be drained at the same rate as sprinting. So in that regard sliding would still be a more optimal solution for getting around the map quickly.

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5 hours ago, Somethin Cool said:

The only way to do that is to make it so stamina drains when you swing a weapon. In which case even if it did, it most likely wouldn't be drained at the same rate as sprinting. So in that regard sliding would still be a more optimal solution for getting around the map quickly.

As far as I understand it, sliding has a pseudo infinite stamina because the Swing animation "locks" or "freezes" the stamina value until it finishes.  Removing that lock would presumably cause stamina to drain at the same rate as just sprinting, since the Slide glitch cause the game to be confused on what state or action the player is in.  They are swinging, sprinting, and on others screen, the player's locations (with their hitboxes and junk) is separated from the character model until it resyncs upon swing animation finishing (which is why there is an "after-image" then teleport). I don't see how sliding would still be optimal than just sprinting (other than the benefit of the teleport), but it would still limit its usefulness since constant spamming will just drain stamina quickly on such a change.

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1 hour ago, GeneiJin said:

As far as I understand it, sliding has a pseudo infinite stamina because the Swing animation "locks" or "freezes" the stamina value until it finishes.  Removing it would presumably cause stamina to drain at the same rate as just sprinting, since the Slide glitch cause the game to be confused on what state or action the player is in.  They are swinging, sprinting, and on others screen, the player's locations (with their hitboxes and junk) is separated from the character model until it resyncs upon swing animation finishing (which is why there is an "after-image" then teleport). I don't see how sliding would still be optimal than just sprinting (other than the benefit of the teleport), but it would still limit its usefulness since constant spamming will just drain stamina quickly on such a change.

Not really. Sliding glitches stamina because you're swinging for the duration of the slide. Since there's no stamina drain when a counselor swings a weapon, that swing overrides the stamina drain from sprinting. There may be a short add on to that stamina freeze past the swing but it's negligible. The only way to fix the initial stamina freeze would be to make it so every weapon swing drains stamina. And the only way to make sliding not beneficial would be to make a weapon swing drain as much or more stamina than sprinting.

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2 hours ago, Somethin Cool said:

Not really. Sliding glitches stamina because you're swinging for the duration of the slide.

That is exactly what I said but in different words.  Swing action “lock” or “freeze” the stamina value, leading to pseudo infinite stamina when sliding (and its non teleporting variant), we are at an agreement of how it work.  Adding a stamina drain to the swing animation as you suggested could address players spamming sliding, but whether it discourages it is depended how much that stamina cost is.  It would be a nerf to counselors tho, since it would add a penalty on wiffed swings and the game needs to check for that after the game checks if the swing make contact on Jason in order for the stamina bonus to be applied correctly, something I have no faith the devs to correctly implement it especially at this point.  Removing the stamina lock would mean that it’s kinda a small buff (stamina regen during swing animation but not during sliding), but honestly I’d rather they just revert to how it was before the last patch (again, no faith lol)

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24 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

That is exactly what I said but in different words.  Swing action “lock” or “freeze” the stamina value, leading to pseudo infinite stamina when sliding (and its non teleporting variant), we are at an agreement of how it work.  Adding a stamina drain to the swing animation as you suggested could address players spamming sliding, but whether it discourages it is depended how much that stamina cost is.  It would be a nerf to counselors tho, since it would add a penalty on wiffed swings and the game needs to check for that after the game checks if the swing make contact on Jason in order for the stamina bonus to be applied correctly, something I have no faith the devs to correctly implement it especially at this point.  Removing the stamina lock would mean that it’s kinda a small buff (stamina regen during swing animation but not during sliding), but honestly I’d rather they just revert to how it was before the last patch (again, no faith lol)

They can't remove the stamina lock though. That's just a side effect of swinging. I mean, if it worked like it's supposed to there would already be a stamina drain from sprinting. But I honestly don't think that adding stamina drain to swinging is the way to go either. If it comes down to that, simply making it so you can't sprint to exit combat stance would probably be the best way to go. It's still not an optimal solution for playability, but it would be a good last resort. Better than the current combat delay anyway.

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I guess to put it better, currently swing overrides sprint, at least in terms of stamina depletion. For whatever reason, intentionally or not. Which it should, because if everything was working correctly, you wouldn't be sprinting while swinging. I suppose it might technically be possible to reverse the two so that sprint overrides swing, again only as far as stamina depletion, but I don't know what the potential side effects would be. I'd imagine it's all tied together so you'd have counselors, and possibly Jason, running around landing weapon hits at full sprint without ever stopping. Sort of a perma slide, only with stamina depletion.

In any case being able to press block and swing at the same time has to be the root cause. Because if you alter the inputs slightly you're bulldozing (swinging while blocking.)

It must be a combination of entering all three inputs and just confusing the programming, no matter which way you're doing it. But there has to be a way to fix that without effecting combat stance or sprint. 🤔

Edited by Somethin Cool
Just brainstorming

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Just want to chime in here again regarding the discussion thus far. In regards to the possible solutions for sliding listed, the one at the top of the list for me is undoubtedly preventing swing + block from registering together. This is for a number of reasons which I’ll go into. 

This would essentially nullify attack sliding which is the main form that is utilised, not just for its “teleportation” but also for its stamina conservation. There are other forms which depend on block + sprint but ultimately they are limited in use in comparison to literally travelling across the map with attack slide. Swing + block is also required for “bulldozer” / invisible swing as mentioned, and also for stamina “skipping” (basically stam freeze without a swing). Those would all be knocked out.

The reason why I am wary of the alternate solution - which is preventing block + sprint from registering - is because it is useful for a variety of legitimate techniques (NOT glitches) that rely on smooth transition from CS to an action. While there would be a way around it by utilising the CS input to exit (or dropping block as mentioned), ultimately you are looking at additional inputs / motions for regular things that will now be more cumbersome to do, especially given how frequently they are used. You can already see how just a tiny change of not being able to exit CS for 0.5s can frustrate players simply because it interferes with regular controls they are well accustomed to.

Importantly, there is something that needs to be mentioned in regards to normal input behaviour being modified to not co-exist with other inputs (at a certain timing or otherwise). While any changes made may work perfectly fine as host or offline, the issues can pop up as soon as any ping is introduced. To give you a prime example -

The engine update all the way back managed to remove certain rare exploits at the expense of block functionality. What ended up happening is that if you tried to block at the same speed as you would as host / offline, the game would instead pair CS with the abilities menu and you would get locked up performing no action. You would then require another CS input to restore functionality, but as a consequence you would probably be on your back at that point having taken a hit. The higher the ping the worse it gets till block is practically unusable. This still exists to this day and is a blemish on combat that has not been resolved despite much pleading from the community.

The lesson to be learned here is that if exploits cannot be be rectified without detrimental side effects to normal gameplay, it is better to let them be. At the end of the day only a fraction of the playerbase utilises them, and sliding for example quite often gets them killed when the inputs inevitably fail since they are entirely dependent on ping. It is only somewhat consistent with macro which is practically non-existent on console vs PC (also the very least of your problems on PC in comparison to other things). All I will say is please be considerate in how the issue is fixed and ensure it is not worse than the problem ie. don’t make the 99% of players suffer for it. In the case of CS I predict it needs only one more negative change to fall apart entirely due to aggravation from non-responsive controls. 

Lastly I should address the 3rd option which is stamina depletion during swing. While I respect GeneiJin I must disagree with him on this one since it basically falls into what I’ve said above, modifying a base element of gameplay to rectify an exploit that only a fraction of players use. Something like this would impact stamina management in combat as it would be a penalty for non-contact, therefore it seems excessive to me. 

Long post I know but hopefully it is beneficial towards towards further resolution on this topic.

 

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52 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

The reason why I am wary of the alternate solution - which is preventing block + sprint from registering - is because it is useful for a variety of legitimate techniques (NOT glitches) that rely on smooth transition from CS to an action. While there would be a way around it by utilising the CS input to exit (or dropping block as mentioned), ultimately you are looking at additional inputs / motions for regular things that will now be more cumbersome to do, especially given how frequently they are used. You can already see how just a tiny change of not being able to exit CS for 0.5s can frustrate players simply because it interferes with regular controls they are well accustomed to.

Yeah I didn't want to include any options other than fixing whatever is wrong with swing+block, but just put them in as a last resort. Anything is better than the current combat stance delay. To be completely honest it's disgusting on host as well as off, for both counselors and Jason. It just needs to go.

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1 hour ago, Tommy86 said:

You can already see how just a tiny change of not being able to exit CS for 0.5s can frustrate players simply because it interferes with regular controls they are well accustomed to.

 

this is exactly how i feel about the CS change. it has ruined my fighting/evasion techniques. tommy & the gang here make alot of really great points. switching it back & saying to hell with the sliding is what my heart desires.

thanks for all this info & help! very interesting read as well.

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