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Tech or Cheat?  

34 members have voted

  1. 1. What do you think things like the Speed Shift or Ghosting are?

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On 8/20/2020 at 11:29 AM, I'm Not a Goalie said:

No, it's not an intended mechanic. For one, he specified breaking down doors faster, which counselors obviously can not do, so that is an advantage for Jason especially if you're running 8, 4, or Savinni. As someone who runs Part 8 a lot and doesn't use exploits, I do find it annoying that one my Jason's strengths can essentially be somewhat negated by a Jason without destruction.

So do you use the default door breaking animation then? I bet you don't.

On 8/20/2020 at 8:59 AM, Carlso said:

Speed Shift: Glitch that makes shift start faster and increases the distance of the shift traveling. It makes grabbing counselors extremely easy.

This makes almost no difference at all.

On 8/20/2020 at 8:59 AM, Carlso said:

Abduction: Makes you teleport to another place while killing someone. This basically doesn't let the counselor hit you when you grab someone, and when you teleport to the water, pocket knives lose their effect.

Ghosting: Jason becomes invisible, but he can still grab and moves slowly and very strangely. It doesn't work with Savini and Part 2. 

These are both very hard to do correctly. And ghosting works with all Jason varients. The only thing is you can see Savini's eyes, unmasked part 2's hair, and part 6's belt.

On 8/20/2020 at 8:59 AM, Carlso said:

Double Tap: Makes breaking doors a little bit faster.

Again, if you're not using the default door breaking animation, technically you're "cheating." Funny how people like to nitpick when it suits them.

 

On 8/20/2020 at 8:59 AM, Carlso said:

Tech comes from technique, so it's something you need to learn before being able to pull off. Cheats are something that is against the rules or something that should not happen. Some cheats are complicated and the cheater needs to learn something, like creating your own communication system to cheat on a test, but because it goes against the rules, it is cheating and not tech.

It's all tech at this point because it's all been there since launch and hasn't been patched. 

On 8/20/2020 at 8:59 AM, Carlso said:

personally think that those are cheats and not pro techs as I said before, but am I wrong? I would like to hear other opinions about that. I know there are some people here in the forum that know many more things about this stuff and most of them were allowed in some tournaments, so it could be a thing

To be blunt, Jason needs all the help he can get. He's outmatched and outnumbered against any group that knows what they're doing. Don't believe me? Watch any tournament team in a full 4 seater against any top Jason. 

If a Jason player knows how to do all this stuff he has an advantage. No different than a counselor with perfectly timed wake up hits. Both take skill to master. Neither were intended when they made the game. 

You can argue intended mechanics all you want. My car has an emergency brake. Nowhere in the owners manual does it tell me how to use it other than pull up to engage, press button and push down to disengage. Yet if I learn how to use it right, maybe even practice a bit, it might just save my life some day. For example, doing an e brake slide to avoid a head on collision. E brake slides are not an intended mechanic. The only thing an emergency brake was ever intended for was to bring you to a controlled stop should you lose brakes while driving. But if I use highly advanced techniques to save my life, is that cheating?

To be completely honest there aren't enough pub lobby players that even know how to do any of this stuff for it to ever be an issue. I don't even know why you're bringing it up. But good job sharing how to do every Jason "exploit" on the forums.

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@Somethin Cool thanks for bringing up your point of view, I was really wanting to read a different opinion... but

29 minutes ago, Somethin Cool said:

Again, if you're not using the default door breaking animation, technically you're "cheating." Funny how people like to nitpick when it suits them.

do you honestly think breaking a door in combat stance is a glitch?

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13 minutes ago, Carlso said:

do you honestly think breaking a door in combat stance is a glitch?

Ahh here we go the old combat stancing doors debate is it an exploit or intended mechanic? Double tapping doors vs Combat stancing doors both are talking advantage of a game control mechanic but most consider combat stancing doors "acceptable" but double tapping is not. hmm I'll grab my popcorn.

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22 hours ago, HaHaTrumpWon said:

I use Speed-Shifting (I prefer to call it "Instant-Shifting", Side-Shifting (sometimes called Wedge-Shifting) and 3rd Person Shifting (a.k.a. "Wobble-Shifting" regularly. I only use Abduction if the counselor in question is "giving up", or if I don't plan on killing them for whatever reason (for example, if the entire lobby sans one person quits, I tell the last remaining counselor to escape, he steps in a trap without med spray and gets crippled with the nearest spray being way over on the other side of the map, I'll Abduct him/her right to it and save them the trouble of doing the gimp-walk all the way over there). I'll use Double-Tap in offline bots, but after trying several times in live games, I've concluded that my connection is simply too wonky to time it consistently and thus it's faster to just break it down the old-fashioned way. The TK animation-cancel IS used, but only in one specific circumstance (if some asshat keeps hitting/trying to hit me when collecting knives, I'll wait until they've close by and use it to bait them into going for a cheap shot but then turn and grab them).

The various Shift-types I honestly don't consider a cheat. Everything else, well... yes, those are cheats. You can call them "tech" or "advanced gameplay techniques" if you want, but it's the same thing as calling a pedophile a "Maturity-challenged affection aficionado"... a pretty name for an ugly thing. 

Last night, my little group was going around killing Jason's and had a Sivini Jason cheating his bitch-ass off.  Constant Shifting (not Shifting then going into Stalk or Shifting and then Morphing, this fuckboi was literally trying to Shift-Grab us every few seconds), Ghosting (he wasn't moving, just more-or-less staying in "Morph limbo" hoping one of us would run up and try to hit him), etc... Unfortunately, the girl who decided to grab the sweater beat our designated Sweater-Girl to it and ended up getting her dumb ass killed. Immediately after the kill animation finishes, we break his mask. If that dumb motherfucker had stayed alive 10 more seconds, we'd have got him, but nooooooooo.... she runs right up to a blocking Jason and starts wailing on him while both of us were flashing our lights at her trying to get her to stop.

So you admit to using exploits? Not cool.

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22 hours ago, HaHaTrumpWon said:

I use Speed-Shifting (I prefer to call it "Instant-Shifting", Side-Shifting (sometimes called Wedge-Shifting) and 3rd Person Shifting (a.k.a. "Wobble-Shifting" regularly. I only use Abduction if the counselor in question is "giving up", or if I don't plan on killing them for whatever reason (for example, if the entire lobby sans one person quits, I tell the last remaining counselor to escape, he steps in a trap without med spray and gets crippled with the nearest spray being way over on the other side of the map, I'll Abduct him/her right to it and save them the trouble of doing the gimp-walk all the way over there). I'll use Double-Tap in offline bots, but after trying several times in live games, I've concluded that my connection is simply too wonky to time it consistently and thus it's faster to just break it down the old-fashioned way. The TK animation-cancel IS used, but only in one specific circumstance (if some asshat keeps hitting/trying to hit me when collecting knives, I'll wait until they've close by and use it to bait them into going for a cheap shot but then turn and grab them).

The various Shift-types I honestly don't consider a cheat. Everything else, well... yes, those are cheats. You can call them "tech" or "advanced gameplay techniques" if you want, but it's the same thing as calling a pedophile a "Maturity-challenged affection aficionado"... a pretty name for an ugly thing. 

Last night, my little group was going around killing Jason's and had a Sivini Jason cheating his bitch-ass off.  Constant Shifting (not Shifting then going into Stalk or Shifting and then Morphing, this fuckboi was literally trying to Shift-Grab us every few seconds), Ghosting (he wasn't moving, just more-or-less staying in "Morph limbo" hoping one of us would run up and try to hit him), etc... Unfortunately, the girl who decided to grab the sweater beat our designated Sweater-Girl to it and ended up getting her dumb ass killed. Immediately after the kill animation finishes, we break his mask. If that dumb motherfucker had stayed alive 10 more seconds, we'd have got him, but nooooooooo.... she runs right up to a blocking Jason and starts wailing on him while both of us were flashing our lights at her trying to get her to stop.

Accidentally double posted 

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11 minutes ago, Redcat345 said:

So you admit to using exploits? Not cool.

I mean it is his opinion. It is easily countered by blocking a one door cabin with the car. Got to enjoy my 20min indoor dance party.

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7 hours ago, Laotian Lam said:

The way I look at it is this:  If someone playing as a supernatural, overpowered killing machine is willing to cheat (in 6 different ways by my count) then Im going to assume they will also cheat when they are a scared little teenage counselor running for their life.  

 

Let me clarify things:

1) The Savini Jason was the one cheating

2) The counselors trying to kill him, myself included, were not cheating.

And yes, you're right... if someone is willing to cheat when playing Jason, they'll probably do the same when they play as a counselor.

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11 minutes ago, HaHaTrumpWon said:

Let me clarify things:

1) The Savini Jason was the one cheating

2) The counselors trying to kill him, myself included, were not cheating.

And yes, you're right... if someone is willing to cheat when playing Jason, they'll probably do the same when they play as a counselor.

Given what you said about your kill squad and flashing your flashlight at the SG, I assumed you were using Party Chat with your kill squad.  If so, I view that as cheating.  

Basically if.you use tech, party chat, exploits etc in Pub lobbies you are cheating.  Do it in a Private match where rules are clear to everyone then thats different.

 

1 hour ago, Somethin Cool said:

It's all tech at this point because it's all been there since launch and hasn't been patched. 

Ive heard a lot of excuses from cheaters but that may be the lamest one yet.  

 

The worst cheat/exploit/ tech that Ive seen in the game was Jason knifing the car and it was around for a long time before it was fixed.  If you throw a knife at a car knowing that it could result in counselors getting kicked from the game because they got trapped under the map, you are an a-hole. But there are tons of threads on this board that tried to justify it anyhow.

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1 hour ago, Redcat345 said:

So you admit to using exploits? Not cool.

Side/Wedge/etc... shifting is no more an exploit than using combat stance to break down doors (if the game tells you that you can attack in combat stance, why the fuck would anybody be so stupid as to think that hitting a counselor in CS = good, but hitting a door in CS = bad?). Are you seriously trying to tell me that R1 + Square to shift is fair, but R1 + Square + R1 is foul? I don't ghost/ghostwalk, I don't animation cancel traps or breaking closets or even opening doors, if I'm fighting a kill-squad and have a choice between either abducting Tommy/SG or getting killed, I'm going to pick "getting killed" because I don't want them to have the excuse of "You only survived because you cheated!"

EDIT:

I don't use any chat PERIOD. I don't have a mic, and even if I did, I mute everyone as soon as I get into a lobby. The only communicating I do is through very hastily typed PM's.

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8 hours ago, Somethin Cool said:

So do you use the default door breaking animation then? I bet you don't.

90% of the time yes I do. It's funny though, since you brought that up probably knowing I couldn't take that bet since I readily admitted in a previous post that I throw the rule book out of the window when I'm dealing with cheaters and the occasional troll. A big part of the reason I run Part 8 is for Destruction. He breaks down doors plenty fast,  so I don't need to use exploits to knock them down any faster.

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@Somethin Cool is right on the ball that Jason needs any help or tools that is possible.  An experienced Lobby will exploit every weakness Jason has, and his glaring one is dealing with groups of counselors.  If anything, ghost and abduct helps Jason in situations where any grab will lead to a counselor save, stun, and free damage.

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@Somethin Cool I know you're a man who knows his stuff - I've read your posts and seen some gameplay. But I'm going to have to say that you are definitely reaching with a few things here.

On 8/22/2020 at 6:49 PM, Somethin Cool said:

Again, if you're not using the default door breaking animation, technically you're "cheating." Funny how people like to nitpick when it suits them.

Jason's slashing action (light or heavy hit) whilst in CS is an intended mechanic of the game. We can agree on that. Using that action to break down doors may not have been how it was initially intended to be used, but it is seen as more viable because there is no manipulation of the game's controls and coding involved. In order to 'double tap' a player is taking advantage of the code in the game by entering CS, swinging and then exiting CS milliseconds after, and then re-entering CS to deliver the second hit. It was never an intended action for entering or re-entering CS to deliver a slash. If a dev can correct me on this, then please do so. So surely you can acknowledge that there is a substantial difference between breaking a door down in CS and double tapping it. Furthermore, I believe that the option to hit doors without the default R2/RT prompt was intented because when a door is open you do not have the prompt available, thus having no way to destroy it other than using normal or CS hits.

On 8/22/2020 at 6:49 PM, Somethin Cool said:

It's all tech at this point because it's all been there since launch and hasn't been patched.

Lol. Dude... I know you know that this comment doesn't hold ANY weight when it comes to what has or has not been patched in this game. We might as well call the roof glitch 'old removed tech' if that's the point of view you're really taking.

On 8/22/2020 at 6:49 PM, Somethin Cool said:

To be blunt, Jason needs all the help he can get. He's outmatched and outnumbered against any group that knows what they're doing. Don't believe me? Watch any tournament team in a full 4 seater against any top Jason.

Yes, Jason needs all the help he can get and is outmatched by well coordinated groups IN TOURNIES. But I think it is safe to say that this game is played mostly by average Joe's in QP more than it is by organised tournament players on a day-to-day basis. In all my years of playing this game I can honestly say that I have probably come across 1 group of tourny players in QP, excluding those I've played with. It was obvious that they were pro players because they new every trick in the book and made it look very easy. They even all dressed their Vanessa's the same (lol). But the point I'm making here is that there is no tournament edition of F13. Exploits such as speed shifting, animation cancelling to quick trap, grab knives, break beds/closets, double tapping, abduction and ghosting all should not be in the game as they are all a manipulation of the game's controls/coding.

On 8/22/2020 at 6:49 PM, Somethin Cool said:

For example, doing an e brake slide to avoid a head on collision. E brake slides are not an intended mechanic. The only thing an emergency brake was ever intended for was to bring you to a controlled stop should you lose brakes while driving. But if I use highly advanced techniques to save my life, is that cheating?

Mr. Cool. You can't be serious with that comparison can you? If you did a handbrake (E-brake) slide to save yourself from a head-on collision and saved lives, not only did you cheat death, but you probably deserve a medal too for your quick thinking. Having said that, whilst the emergency brake is exactly that - for emergencies, parking, stopping on a hill - there are professional motorsports that actually allow its use for performance purposes. Rallying being the main one. Furthermore, your collision avoidance technique wouldn't result in misfortune for anybody else. What I mean by that is, in this game all the actions of using the game mechanics not as they were intended impact opposing players negatively. And I'm not talking about those highly skilled players in tournies where it's allowed. I'm simply talking about the standard player in QP. Speed shifting could be the difference between a player making it through a window in time or not. Quick grabbing the knives in Jason's cabin could be the difference between Tommy getting called or not. Quick bed/closet destruction could be the difference between a hiding player getting out from another spot and escaping or not. Abducting a player into the water could be the difference between that player getting to use their pocket knife or not. So whilst that all works in the Jason player's favour, there is a clear negative impact on the counselors that you and other "tech" users are doing it to. I've seen exploiting Jason's just wipe lobbies out in minutes and the lack of a challenge seems so boring to me. By all means, do it in a tournament where it's accepted and/or super necessary. But surely you can't justify it as tech in average, day-to-day gameplay.

On 8/22/2020 at 6:49 PM, Somethin Cool said:

To be completely honest there aren't enough pub lobby players that even know how to do any of this stuff for it to ever be an issue. I don't even know why you're bringing it up. But good job sharing how to do every Jason "exploit" on the forums.

The first part of this statement may be true. But how many active exploiters is acceptable? Plus, the longer those things are left in the game, the more and more players will come across it for themselves and want to find out how to do it. But sharing the exploits here is definitely not the problem. Anyone who wants to cheat, exploit, learn tech, whatever will always go to YouTube first and foremost. That is where the actual vid is from and it has almost 10,000 views. The fact that the vid has been up for almost a year and all of it is still relevant/not patched is the real problem.

And everything I've stated can be said from an exploiting counselor's perspective too.

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1 hour ago, F13 Seppuku Squad said:

Jason's slashing action (light or heavy hit) whilst in CS is an intended mechanic of the game.

 

8 hours ago, Carlso said:

@Somethin Cool thanks for bringing up your point of view, I was really wanting to read a different opinion... but

do you honestly think breaking a door in combat stance is a glitch?

Yes. Try doing it to a breakable wall. If it wasn't a glitch it would work on both.

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1 hour ago, F13 Seppuku Squad said:

not patched is the real problem.

It's not likely getting patched either I explained that before. I'm assuming that would require recoding the entire control matrix, probably why sliding has never been fixed but they are attempting to do so next patch, not holding my breath. At this point in the games lifespan they aren't going to do any major recoding. I'm afraid we are probably stuck with these "tricks" until the game is totally dead. People are going to use them whether you like it or not and with no penalty. Really a mute point in discussing it further this is going nowhere.

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1 hour ago, F13 Seppuku Squad said:

Speed shifting could be the difference between a player making it through a window in time or not. Quick grabbing the knives in Jason's cabin could be the difference between Tommy getting called or not. Quick bed/closet destruction could be the difference between a hiding player getting out from another spot and escaping or not. Abducting a player into the water could be the difference between that player getting to use their pocket knife or not. So whilst that all works in the Jason player's favour, there is a clear negative impact on the counselors that you and other "tech" users are doing it to. I've seen exploiting Jason's just wipe lobbies out in minutes and the lack of a challenge seems so boring to me. By all means, do it in a tournament where it's accepted and/or super necessary. But surely you can't justify it as tech in average, day-to-day gameplay.

There are far worse "tricks" for counselors than there are for Jason. The major game breaking ones will get patched. I seriously doubt they'll get to them all short of recoding the entire game. So I help out where I can and turn in the major ones. Like it or not some of them aren't going anywhere. I can blue screen an entire lobby with a can of med spray, bypass any of Jason's traps, and infinitely glitch a pocket knife. I think thats more important than anything Jason can do.

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33 minutes ago, Somethin Cool said:

I seriously doubt they'll get to them all short of recoding the entire game.

 

33 minutes ago, Somethin Cool said:

Like it or not some of them aren't going anywhere.

 Didn't I just say that? LOL

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On 8/23/2020 at 4:11 AM, Somethin Cool said:

Yes. Try doing it to a breakable wall. If it wasn't a glitch it would work on both.

I did touch on that. But let me express further.

I don't believe it to be a glitch, but more of an intent, because breakable walls remain in place until destroyed. As I mentioned before, doors on the otherhand can be opened, and when they are open Jason does not get an R2/RT prompt to break them. Therefore using normal or CS hits is the only way to destroy a door in order to make sure counselors are unable to close and lock it. If the R2/RT prompt was meant to be compulsory for all doors and walls then surely it would have been easy to code the doors in the same way as the walls, so that Jason's weapon just bounces off them and leaves him with no way of breaking doors when they are open. Can you imagine how silly that would be, especially on a 1-hit door.

On 8/23/2020 at 4:20 AM, TimDuke 01 said:

It's not likely getting patched either I explained that before. I'm assuming that would require recoding the entire control matrix, probably why sliding has never been fixed but they are attempting to do so next patch, not holding my breath. At this point in the games lifespan they aren't going to do any major recoding. I'm afraid we are probably stuck with these "tricks" until the game is totally dead. People are going to use them whether you like it or not and with no penalty. Really a mute point in discussing it further this is going nowhere.

Don't get me wrong, I stopped holding my breath on patches after the patch that broke the context kills. I was just pointing out the obvious. But at the rate that patches get put out - every 6 or so months, not to mention that they can be hit or miss in actually resolving the issue or cause more issues - I definitely understand that a lot of these glitches and exploits will get left in once Support has shut up shop. But it doesn't hurt to discuss glitches/exploits and find out why some players stand by them despite their impact on fair play to the average player.

On 8/23/2020 at 4:26 AM, Somethin Cool said:

There are far worse "tricks" for counselors than there are for Jason. The major game breaking ones will get patched. I seriously doubt they'll get to them all short of recoding the entire game. So I help out where I can and turn in the major ones. Like it or not some of them aren't going anywhere. I can blue screen an entire lobby with a can of med spray, bypass any of Jason's traps, and infinitely glitch a pocket knife. I think thats more important than anything Jason can do.

I completely and utterly agree with you, fella. If we're realistic we can only hope that all the major exploits get patched. But the truth is there will be big exploits and glitches left untouched for the last leg of the game's lifespan. My honest thought is that some of the more serious issues, like ones you've mentioned, will fly under the radar right up until the game is no longer supported and then come flooding into the game soon after. Can you imagine every lobby having players who know how to blue screen the game, let alone counselors having infinite knives? I've seen the bypassing traps trick but yet to be in a game where players have done it. But the longer it remains in the game the more likely it will start to come into play, just like the current pocket knife-med spray swapping glitch.

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On 8/22/2020 at 11:11 PM, Somethin Cool said:

 

Yes. Try doing it to a breakable wall. If it wasn't a glitch it would work on both.

I saw it (combat stance cutting on walls)had been changed on walls and taken out to balance things so jason couldn't cut through the cabin walls as fast.

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1 hour ago, Alien_Number_Six said:

What if I told you I constantly destroy whole lobbies as Jason without resulting to cheating of any type? 

Destroying a whole pub lobby of noobs is easy, any lvl 150 can do it. The problem is when Jason is facing a well experienced and coordinated 7 man friend party.

 

I played a match with a cheater a few days ago. I could repair the fuse and call the police. 2min after that, the rest of the lobby died. Good Jasons destroy noob lobbies, but cheater Jasons using exploits and denying PKs simply annihilates noobs. 0% chance of those guys escaping. I bet that was an awful match for them, that's the problem of cheats, both by Jasons as well as counselors.

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Just adding, most tourneys and leagues have rules based around which exploits/techs are allowed, and I think they tend to find a pretty good balance. (i.e: Counselors can quick heal, Jason can double tap and speed shift). If everyone's on the same page it tends to even things out for the most part. Idk why everyone is so concerned what people do in pub lobbies. If you're getting owned by exploits, learn how to counter them. Not like the devs will ever pay attention. 

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6 hours ago, Carlso said:

The problem is when Jason is facing a well experienced and coordinated 7 man friend party.

Using Discord  party chat. LOL

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22 minutes ago, MrSketchyFungus said:

If you're getting owned by exploits, learn how to counter them.

The average pub player shouldn't have to that is the point.I know how to counter most of them but I shouldn't have to know that.  Part of the reason why this game is dying. It's pretty bad when I have to waste a trap on Higgins Haven Small where they get up on the rock behind main house.

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Just now, TimDuke 01 said:

The average pub player shouldn't have to that is the point.I know how to counter most of them but I shouldn't have to know that.  Part of the reason why this game is dying. 

I mean, yes and no. Most pub Jason's don't even know the tech we're discussing. And honestly, it's not that hard to find a new lobby if the Jason you're facing does. Considering there's no penalty for leaving matches, it really shouldn't be a huge deal. Also, tons of video games are enhanced by looking up strategies and shit. If you like a game enough, it's not that hard to find a few Youtube videos detailing the meta. Otherwise the FGC wouldn't even exist really, aside from the oldheads. The game "dying" has little to do with skilled players employing tech. The roof glitch and shit like that was far more poisonous for the game then knocking down doors "too quickly".

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