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Ste_Wolf

Its way too easy to kill Jason

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Seriously I see it happen several times a day, especially in lobbies full of rank 150's. Jason feels weak in the game against an organized group of pro players. Super stamina Vanessa will grab the sweater. Someone will willingly die or suicide to come back as Tommy. Then you have your Adams, Bugzys etc demasking him easily with machetes and baseball bats. Probably all running the slugger perk.

I don't know which scenario is worse. Seeing Jason go down so easily, or seeing him stay away and hide from the group chasing him to kill him after they've unmasked him. The antithesis of Jason from the movies.

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I'm reposting this from another thread because it relates to your post. Yes, it IS way too easy to kill Jason (if you watch that video but still claim Jason is hard to kill, you are HORRENDOUSLY naive). That Jason was at full health but still lost his mask 90 seconds into the round from just two machete strikes. Five minutes later and we had the sweater and then it was simply a short jog over to where he was and that was that.

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You can't suicide to become Tommy anymore. A kill squad can still control who is  though by setting up counselor traps for each other it counts as murder not suicide if you step in another persons trap.

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Last night I had one of those hot shit 150 glitchy Vanessas grab the sweater. She was using a glitch spot the map before, so I basically tunneled her until she landed in some idiots counselor trap placed by a window. My knife would've killed her, so she decided to use the sweater to save herself to prevent the kill. The ego on those Vanessas I tell ya.

At the end of the match, I had to play goalie between her trying to get out via the car and Tommy trying to call the cops. I eventually got that bitch, and even though Tommy called the cops. That didn't matter because the timer was up anyway, so I went 5/7. More proof that the timer being in counselors favor was bad design. Other than the band aid/lazy rage update. Its always been on counselor side. Back in the old days, you would just exploit the door rage mechanic by stunning him as soon as he walked through the door. It was basically a bad idea to use a supposed power up because counselors still had the edge and that was basically the ONLY real power up that came with rage besides the cooldowns.

While I don't approve of the rage update now in terms of continuing to push the already lopsided meta in favor of speed/stamina/luck. I definitely remember the way the game used to be in the later stages with everyone hiding behind a door with a high stun weapon, waiting for him to rage the door for a free stun or watch Jasons use combat stance to prevent themselves from getting free stunned by counselor.

What can I say. The game needs more changes, but with the game 'long in the tooth'. Doubt its gonna happen.

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7 hours ago, HaHaTrumpWon said:

I'm reposting this from another thread because it relates to your post. Yes, it IS way too easy to kill Jason (if you watch that video but still claim Jason is hard to kill, you are HORRENDOUSLY nieve). That Jason was at full health but still lost his mask 90 seconds into the round from just two machete strikes. Five minutes later and we had the sweater and then it was simply a short jog over to where he was and that was that.

Perfect example right there of what I see multiple times every time I play this game. Thanks for posting that. Out of curiosity do you know what rank that Jason was? Because I see this happen to rank 150's all the time. Not just the baby Jasons.

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The only ones to blame for the kill being too easy are the devs. For some reason they allowed for one hit de masks to be a thing and apparently that isn’t a big deal to them? They’re also the same ones telling us nothing is wrong with the kill. Even though killing Jason is way too OP for counselors. Seriously, SMH

these conversations are going to keep getting brushed to the side no matter what.... thanks gun media. :)

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5 hours ago, Ste_Wolf said:

Perfect example right there of what I see multiple times every time I play this game. Thanks for posting that. Out of curiosity do you know what rank that Jason was? Because I see this happen to rank 150's all the time. Not just the baby Jasons.

If I recall correctly, he was somewhere between 60 and 70. To paraphrase Something Cool from the other thread, this Jason's biggest mistakes were attempting to grab instead of using TK's and slashing, and a complete lack of blocking even though it was stupidly obvious I was after his mask (he also didn't trap his shack and more-or-less pulled a 'deer in the headlights' when we approached with the sweater).

After killing literally dozens of Jason's with this same small group of friends, let me tell you the three biggest things that make getting the kill ridiculously easy for us:

1) Lack of shack defense. No trap in the doorway to deter or slow down sweater-girl, and no response when Pamela alerts Jason we've come for the sweater. I've been spectating Jason (or more accurately, whoever Jason is after) when the shack gets invaded and more than a couple of times have seen Jason continue playing Ring Around The Motherfucking Rosie or some other unimportant activity instead of dropping what he's doing and going to defend the sweater (or, at the very least, make an attempt to intercept SG before she gets away).

2) Lack of awareness. No effort made to see if that doorway you're about to barge through is trapped or not (or sometimes stepping in traps that are very obviously placed),  not bothering to take a peek behind yourself if breaking down doors the 'old-fashioned' way, taking so long to aim a TK that someone has time to run up and nail you while you're doing it,  walking into ambush after ambush after ambush because you're so caught up in catching that one specific counselor you don't notice the one hiding by the door with an axe, leaving generators undamaged.

3) Lack of combat tactics. Non-stop grabbing even when surrounded by counselors with machetes and axes, lack of/absence of blocking (tanking damage instead of minimizing it), lack of/absence of throwing knife and combat stance usage, repeatedly grabbing "bait" counselors, killing "kamikaze" counselors who are clearly trying to die and come back as Tommy, and neglects using Stalk.

TL;DR:

The easiest Jason to kill doesn't trap his shack or respond to Pamelas alert, doesn't try cutting the power, can be easily baited into grabbing someone (so somebody else can get a free shot, or so the grabbed counselor can die and come back as Tommy), never tries to block and instead just Hulks his way through attacks.

The hardest Jason to kill traps his shack and will be right on your ass almost immediately after getting the alert (provided Morph is ready), won't grab you PERIOD if another counselor is anywhere close to you, will approach counselors (especially if high-strength or armed with machetes/axes) cautiously, heavily uses block when confronting players, doesn't fall for "grab me" tactics, and starts cutting power early in the round.

 

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I agree if you are playing against at least 3 highly skilled counselors. In a standard quick play lobby though, this is a non issue. Jason is not killed more often than he is killed.

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On 11/16/2019 at 11:30 PM, Ste_Wolf said:

Seriously I see it happen several times a day, especially in lobbies full of rank 150's. Jason feels weak in the game against an organized group of pro players. Super stamina Vanessa will grab the sweater. Someone will willingly die or suicide to come back as Tommy. Then you have your Adams, Bugzys etc demasking him easily with machetes and baseball bats. Probably all running the slugger perk.

I don't know which scenario is worse. Seeing Jason go down so easily, or seeing him stay away and hide from the group chasing him to kill him after they've unmasked him. The antithesis of Jason from the movies.

Its easy to kill Jason.  But its much easier for Jason to avoid getting killed.

Like I always say.  Jason isn't hiding from the counselors, hes avoiding the sweater.    Be obvious about it, and you don't deserve the Jason kill.

 

 

I've never been killed and never will.  Its just tooo easy to avoid being killed once counselors make it obvious they are going for a kill.

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I was killed the other day by an obvious 'kill squad'. I'll just need to get better at playing Jason and first recognize that this is their plan and then try to avoid the sweater. I don't MIND groups trying to do this, what makes it bad - for me at least - id the toxic taunting and chatter as they do it. The derogatory terms and personal taunts are making me think about just muting EVERYONE in the lobby to start.   Some nasty-ass players who would cry if they fail and yet can drop some plain old mean taunts when they kill.

 

Practice, practice, practice for me! 

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It is, which is why it isnt a big deal if I get killed. I’ve only gotten killed once, but if it does happen again I’m not going to worry about it because against a group of skilled counselors, being killed can almost be inevitable (there are ways around it but it’s too easy to kill Jason). 

For newbies though it seems very difficult for them, which is expected, but since I’m playing on Xbox One there are many new players because of the game being free for a certain amount of time on gold, and when I get the sweater and have Tommy, when we’re about to kill Jason,  the Tommy successfully gets him on his knees but just keeps hitting him. So for newbies it definitely isn’t too easy. Anyway I do agree with your point killing Jason is too easy which is why being killed isn’t a big deal for me (even though it sucks when I do die). 

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Too many arguments to one simple fact, playing as Jason against a team is a miserable experience for the Jason player given all the flaws / oversights in the game mechanics

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9 hours ago, 45 RPM said:

I was killed the other day by an obvious 'kill squad'. I'll just need to get better at playing Jason and first recognize that this is their plan and then try to avoid the sweater. I don't MIND groups trying to do this, what makes it bad - for me at least - id the toxic taunting and chatter as they do it. The derogatory terms and personal taunts are making me think about just muting EVERYONE in the lobby to start.   Some nasty-ass players who would cry if they fail and yet can drop some plain old mean taunts when they kill.

 

Practice, practice, practice for me! 

I applaud you for taking your loss gracefully.

There are a lot of unsavory players out there. The insults and trash talk can make one want to mute every lobby for that reason alone.

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I don't necessarily have a problem with the kill being simple or easy, as it should be viable to all play levels and a threat to all Jasons regardless of skill level.  What is offensive about the ease of Killing Jason is that it can be done with brute force and extreme early game. The sweater itself is so OP for what it does that it effectively shifts the entire game over to counselors.  Since the sweater mechanic isn't going to be changed at this stage, the next best approach towards balancing the J-Kill is tweaking Tommy's arrival.   As is, controlling Tommy's arrival (or lack of) is the only truly effective counter-play.  Should counselor manage the call, Tommy should not arrive regardless if two were already killed until mid game, (10-12 minute mark).  Give Jason the freedom to prevent escapes and force counselors to survive him without the worry of Jason kill atm.  

Buff his mask HP a little.... maybe 25-50% more... but not like 500%, thats too dramatic.  lol.  Oh, and consider removing -Defence or anything that reduces a Jason's HP and give him something useless like grip strength (or give him something good to shake-up the variety 😀) in it's place.

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10 hours ago, 45 RPM said:

I was killed the other day by an obvious 'kill squad'. I'll just need to get better at playing Jason and first recognize that this is their plan and then try to avoid the sweater

Practice, practice, practice for me! 

Great mindset.  Currently once the kill is set-up, it becomes a survival game for Jason.  Even if the Jason is cautionary staying out of the sweater's range, I have nothing but respect for a Jason still trying to play around that despite the risk of gameover.  Nothing is learned from cowardly running or becoming a fish.

 

Sorry for the double post :(

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19 hours ago, HuDawg said:

 

I've never been killed and never will.  Its just tooo easy to avoid being killed once counselors make it obvious they are going for a kill.

"It's Good to Hide, When You're Jason."

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They have a lot riding on taking months to fix things, because if they don't fix said things. Its gonna just drive the negative narrative even more.

As it is, it already seems like some of what's left in the community have already lowered their standards to the point where they will accept them fixing environmental kills and ONLY that inside 3 months time. So if they literally do nothing else AND fail at that?

Won't be pretty considering that's not the only pressing thing out there.

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2 hours ago, tyrant666 said:

As it is, it already seems like some of what's left in the community have already lowered their standards to the point where they will accept them fixing environmental kills and ONLY that inside 3 months time.

 

If only it was inside 3 months time because lately it's more like 6 months period between major patches. With news of the upcoming patch to be expected near the end of the year at the earliest implying the next fix will most likely drop later in the beginning of 2020, there will be at least another 5-6 months gap since the last patch. And next there's the car physic problem which Matt mentioned to be an even longer process than the roof issue was to get rid of so this is probably going to take a major part of what's going to be left of next year. Last but not least we also have to hope that no new or old major issues will be brought along those future fixes because sadly it's a real possibility. The major problems in the game right now were not there when the game was released, they all came along the way with either the patches or the engine update.

 

edit: As for the Jason kill being to easy or not, it doesn't matter much what we think about it since Matt made it pretty clear that Gun.'s mind is made up on the subject. They don't think any adjustment is needed. As a reference, here's the last tread that was made on the subject:

http://forum.f13game.com/topic/27140-gun-not-agreeing-with-the-community-that-the-jason-kill-is-too-easy/

I think every possible arguments, examples and videos implying it was easy were brought up there and everything was swiftly shot down by him for one reason or another. It's clear from his responses in that thread that no change will be made.

 

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On 11/19/2019 at 2:07 PM, 45 RPM said:

I was killed the other day by an obvious 'kill squad'. I'll just need to get better at playing Jason and first recognize that this is their plan and then try to avoid the sweater. I don't MIND groups trying to do this, what makes it bad - for me at least - id the toxic taunting and chatter as they do it. The derogatory terms and personal taunts are making me think about just muting EVERYONE in the lobby to start.   Some nasty-ass players who would cry if they fail and yet can drop some plain old mean taunts when they kill.

Taunting, dancing and insults are just baiting methods.

I tend to block it all out.  Like a brick wall. I say nothing back, I just don't care.  

The sweater is the only thing they have.  Without out it, they would all scatter and run like rabbits, or get their heads hacked off.

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Counselor play just needs some kind of rework honestly because the game just doesn't feel like a slasher anymore. The kill squad mentality wouldn't be an issue if they just had stalk and the stealth mechanics play a much bigger role in the game a long ass time ago. Plenty of veteran members on here had good ideas to rework these mechanics but they all got disregarded because Gun always felt changing something with the combat system was much a better priority, but never realized how much it always backfired. Now the game is either an arcade beat em up or summer camp tour simulator.

They might just want to go ahead and to take few pages out the movie Jason Takes Manhattan because for a game that's supposedly based on the final act of a F13 movie, I'd say it's a more accurate portrayal of the SS Lazarus act. Everyone on the ship was pretty much aware that there was a killer coming after them. Granted, I know there are distinct differences between movie characters and video game players who know what they're doing, otherwise, Julius and his classmates would've probably tried to demask him while someone like J.J. activates the sweater. But did you notice how the scene always revolved around Jason's intimidating stalk and the character's attempt at stealth? That's one of the elements that's been missing from the game.

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19 hours ago, Liquid Swordsman said:

Counselor play just needs some kind of rework honestly because the game just doesn't feel like a slasher anymore. The kill squad mentality wouldn't be an issue if they just had stalk and the stealth mechanics play a much bigger role in the game a long ass time ago. Plenty of veteran members on here had good ideas to rework these mechanics but they all got disregarded because Gun always felt changing something with the combat system was much a better priority, but never realized how much it always backfired. Now the game is either an arcade beat em up or summer camp tour simulator.

They might just want to go ahead and to take few pages out the movie Jason Takes Manhattan because for a game that's supposedly based on the final act of a F13 movie, I'd say it's a more accurate portrayal of the SS Lazarus act. Everyone on the ship was pretty much aware that there was a killer coming after them. Granted, I know there are distinct differences between movie characters and video game players who know what they're doing, otherwise, Julius and his classmates would've probably tried to demask him while someone like J.J. activates the sweater. But did you notice how the scene always revolved around Jason's intimidating stalk and the character's attempt at stealth? That's one of the elements that's been missing from the game.

One of the problems is that theres no real punishment for getting slashed by Jason when playing as a Counselor.

Jason hacks a counselor, they barely flinch.  Sure they lose some health, but that can easily be healed or have some damage  negated by perks.  At the same time this means counselors can trade blows with Jason and come out on top.   This is backwards, considering almost every melee attack by Counselors lays Jason out on his ass, like Jason is a WWE wrestler selling a light chair shot.

I've said this before.. and argued many times about it.  But ONE slash from Jason should at the very least,  instantly disarm a counselor.   Counselors should also be stunned for second.

One slash from Jason should also remove the sweater from play.  Meaning one slash and the sweater is gone.  Making being offensive against Jason, demasking him and killing him an actual risk.  And at the same time giving Jason and real chance against kill squads with incentive to actually attack.

 

People of course are gonna argue against that. (like they always do)  But that's because some people don't want a real slasher game.  The want a beat em' up a slasher game.    Thing is, you can't have both.   

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3 hours ago, HuDawg said:

People of course are gonna argue against that. (like they always do)  But that's because some people don't want a real slasher game.  The want a beat em' up a slasher game.    Thing is, you can't have both.   

You're right, we can't have both. At this stage in the game's life, it looks like what we have is likely what we'll have at the end. I hope I'm incorrect.

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I have been playing this game since launch was a backer so I will give my 2 cents, yes it’s very easy to kill Jason , it is one of the easiest things to do in this game. What people have to now understand is that this game is no longer about trying to survive as a counselor this is not challenging at all anymore, I look at it as a challenge to kill everyone while not being killed as Jason, that is what this game is now and it’s not going to change.  People  can adapt to it and have fun with as I learned to do, or be pissed off(like I used to be) it is what it is.

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