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Laphin

JASON "Shift" Insta-grab Problem | How to Fix

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Laphin, I think we should just remove the Shift-Grab and restrict Jason's actions just after Shifting to just Shift-Attack (or Shift-Combat Stance and Attack). Since it will slow down counselors and turn the advantages to Jason. This can be useful specially with Non-running Jason(s). And Throwing Knives won't be the only choice to slow down counselors anymore :).

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16 hours ago, Pikalicious said:

If we have an escapable, or "fair" grab, then people wouldn't cry about shift-grab because there would be no "insta-executions."

I don't know. I can't get on board with the escape-able grab. 

I'm not very good at the game and I find it rather easy to avoid the shift, when you know it's coming. 

If you don't know it's coming or made a juke mistake and happen to get grabbed, AND no one is there to help you, AND you don't have a pocket knife, why should you be able to have a "fair" chance at escape? 

From what I've seen on these forums, from a perspective of a guy who's not good at video games and doesn't play a lot of multi-player, the folks that think the game is out of balance are the ones who are more competitive and generally decent to great (speculation) at online multiplayer. And I get that. The folks that just enjoy the game for what it is and don't see winning and losing, that just want to be in a good lobby are ok with shift+grab and balance. 

A very bad Jason still has a large advantage against a very good counselor. I think that's where some people get hung up. It's not something we're used to in games.

You should never want to be around Jason. You should ALWAYS be fearful of the grab. Giving high strength or composure characters a better chance at breaking the grab will just make them more apt to not worry about where Jason is because they can break his grab. 

I know it's not black and white and there are people on both sides who feel different from what I detailed here. This is just the perception I have after being fairly active on a message board for the first time since ATS in 2004. 

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2 hours ago, rickyount02 said:

I don't know. I can't get on board with the escape-able grab. 

I'm not very good at the game and I find it rather easy to avoid the shift, when you know it's coming. 

If you don't know it's coming or made a juke mistake and happen to get grabbed, AND no one is there to help you, AND you don't have a pocket knife, why should you be able to have a "fair" chance at escape? 

From what I've seen on these forums, from a perspective of a guy who's not good at video games and doesn't play a lot of multi-player, the folks that think the game is out of balance are the ones who are more competitive and generally decent to great (speculation) at online multiplayer. And I get that. The folks that just enjoy the game for what it is and don't see winning and losing, that just want to be in a good lobby are ok with shift+grab and balance. 

A very bad Jason still has a large advantage against a very good counselor. I think that's where some people get hung up. It's not something we're used to in games.

You should never want to be around Jason. You should ALWAYS be fearful of the grab. Giving high strength or composure characters a better chance at breaking the grab will just make them more apt to not worry about where Jason is because they can break his grab. 

I know it's not black and white and there are people on both sides who feel different from what I detailed here. This is just the perception I have after being fairly active on a message board for the first time since ATS in 2004. 

I totally get where you are coming from.

But, just being perceptive in my own way I feel that composure is a completely useless stat and I feel that it needs a reason for existence. Same goes for "combat mode" which has little to no purpose.

I agree, a player should always be fearful of Jason, and his grab.

I think this one little change to the game would put meaning in places that deserve to have meaning. It would factually make the game more difficult for Jason, and would make it more complicated to be good at for all players. I think this game should be a little bit more compelling to play.

Jason makes 5 times the exp of counselors, and is 20 times as easy to play. That is what doesn't make sense.

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I agree with a lot in here.  Jason needs to be able to shift, it is the only way for him to catch counselors most of the time but I think shift grab is a big issue that takes a lot of the fun out of the game.  I think that they should change the mechanic of the grab so that Jason can only grab IF the counselor is injured or limping.  That way he has to hit them one or two times first THEN, when they are injured or limping, he grabs them and kills them.  That would prevent shift grabs unless you are already injured or limping and force Jason to actually use a bit of tactics.  I never shift grab counselors, I think it is a poor game mechanic and it is not fun for Jason or the counselors.  Do counselors escape more often because of this, maybe. More often then not I still kill at least half of the counselors, sometimes I kill them all, and ever so rarely do I only kill 1 or 2 counselors but I guarantee everyone always has fun.

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14 minutes ago, rnjmur said:

I agree with a lot in here.  Jason needs to be able to shift, it is the only way for him to catch counselors most of the time but I think shift grab is a big issue that takes a lot of the fun out of the game.  I think that they should change the mechanic of the grab so that Jason can only grab IF the counselor is injured or limping.  That way he has to hit them one or two times first THEN, when they are injured or limping, he grabs them and kills them.  That would prevent shift grabs unless you are already injured or limping and force Jason to actually use a bit of tactics.  I never shift grab counselors, I think it is a poor game mechanic and it is not fun for Jason or the counselors.  Do counselors escape more often because of this, maybe. More often then not I still kill at least half of the counselors, sometimes I kill them all, and ever so rarely do I only kill 1 or 2 counselors but I guarantee everyone always has fun.

I don't know... Shift for me is not only a way to reach running counselors and cars but also a way to slow down them. I feel like the Shift-Grab is too cheap, even for someone like Jason. For me, he should only have the Shift-Attack. Since wounding a counselor makes them slower and even more afraid of Jason (fear makes them slower too).

Gun Media! Remove all the Jason's actions after shifting except walking/running and attacking!

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How about scape artist perk actually does what it says?!  If this perk would actually give you a chance to break free from Jason's grabs there will not be an issue.  

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On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 4:09 PM, Pikalicious said:

I'm sorry, you must be bad. No offense!

But rare? Alright for starters I never waste 10 minutes on one counselor. If you do, you are practically begging to lose.

And no, for me as Jason, it is certainly not rare to kill everyone. I just about kill everyone every match, the only time people ever survive is if I'm not wearing my headset so that I don't hear the cues for gasoline/battery/fuse/propeller.

And @Galaple, you need to work on your reading skills because you obviously misread @DarkJuggalo:

Juggalo says however. Meaning that, in matches where he had stamina he was snatched by Jason and killed.

Galaple addresses an invisible point.


I agree the game is imbalanced, but I don't have a particular gripe with the shift-grab because I feel like Jason probably could have done that millions of times off screen in the movies.

 I completely agree, the game should be challenging for Jason too.

 

 

People want to introduce a sort of delay after shift where players can't grab, but I don't think that's the problem. I think the problem is players just get shift too often. When a counselors manages to evade a Jason shift grab, it should feel PUNISHING for Jason. His cooldown is simply too short.

What would also make things better is simply getting rid of Jason's "insta-kill." No one likes being shift grabbed and then immediately murdered. So there needs to be a mandatory wait timer on Jason before he can execute that way VERY CLOSE counselors can save their teammate-- I'm talking like a 2 second mandatory wait time. People wouldn't be so angry with shift-grab if they weren't dying by it. Jason's grab needs to be escapable (I mean without a pocket knife obviously). Right now, it isn't. Counselors with the composure stat have no purpose, composure might allow you to get out of the grab faster than other counselors, but that means nothing when Jason can just insta-choke you.

If you add a mandatory timer, the break free meter gains significance. That way, characters with no strength and no composure still die, but counselors with high strength and high composure get an advantage because they don't have to fear Jason grabbing them so much. Then the break free system can be focused on heavily.

Like, okay, so this counselor has high strength and composure...but this current iteration of said counselor (Adam I guess) is injured. Thus, even though the character has good stats--which would normally allow him to escape Jason when grabbed--his break free meter fills by smaller chucks per button mash because this specific player is playing his counselor in an "injured" state.

Then SUDDENLY we have a game where Jason would actually be forced to go about injuring certain counselors before grabbing them, which would result in more "cat-mouse-chase" gameplay. Thus the game would be more fun.

 

If we have an escapable, or "fair" grab, then people wouldn't cry about shift-grab because there would be no "insta-executions."

First off insults do nothing but cause an emotional uprift. And are a detriment to the topic in the first place. Calling me bad is simply nothing more then an Irrational regaurd as for what you have said here.

Quote

Jason would actually be forced to go about injuring certain counselors before grabbing them

 

Is exactly what I'm trying to get at. If Jason is unable to grab while in shift or use grab while in shift or morph period would be beneficial to the game. thus why I said. A Cooldown or a period where Jason cant use grab while in shift or morph is needed. As morph is simply a method for getting around the map. Shift your catch up mechanic as Jason cant run fast.

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1 hour ago, DarkJuggalo said:

Calling me bad is simply nothing more then an Irrational regaurd as for what you have said here.

Alright so you obviously didn't read my post at all, so moving on...

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I don't have a big problem with the way it is now. But I can see how it could be improved, and also how it currently affects the game.

Shift+Grab is something neither Jason players nor Counselors are totally happy with as is. Because the Counselors know they are more than likely screwed without a pocket knife, so they make it an absolute priority in the game to stock up on them, since it automatically saves them from a kill. On the other hand, Shift+Grabs are a vital part of Jason's gameplay, and do require skill, but no matter how well it's executed it's more than likely the Counselor has a pocket knife. So the Jason player gets no reward for skill, and is pissed the Counselor keeps getting away because it requires no skill other than getting lucky searching drawers. The Counselor is pissed they have little option but to rely on luck to find more knives, or risk trying to mash the hell out of their controller/keyboard to escape. Neither of which is ideal.

That's why you see players going around looting cabins now without even locking doors, because their biggest priority is the pocket knife right now. That's also why you see Jasons slashing away instead of grabbing and getting verbally abused about their "cheap" tactic. Both Jason and Counselor are forced to use tactics that neither one respects, because the game isn't rewarding you for skill in that regard. So it seems to me it could use some finesse. I've seen quick time games to break out of grabs brought up before, and I've always liked the idea. I do think it would work better than the current system, since it it based on skill and much more elegant than having to resort to button mashing if you don't have a knife. 

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On 7/10/2017 at 9:01 PM, Tommy86 said:

Shift+Grabs are a vital part of Jason's gameplay, and do require skill, but no matter how well it's executed it's more than likely the Counselor has a pocket knife.

I agree, shift grab is a vital to Jason's balance, without it he would never get counselors.

What I disagree with is that shift-grab requires "skill." Shift-grab is easy, and while that is not the fundamental problem with the balance of the game it is certainly something that many players mistake for the root of all problems as it seems to cause "no-chase" gameplay. Excuse me for being a mary-quite-contrary, but shift grab is so incredibly simple that it is just a skill that cannot be said to be "mastered by anyone--because everyone can do it.

Jason is overpowered. He ruins his own game. so does it matter if counselors gets away a few times with pocket knives? Pocket knives are actually pretty rare. Remember, Jason is 1 person, there are 7 counselors. It is more important to make the counselors fun to play than Jason.

I'll restate over and over again, the problem is not that 'you can grab immediately from shift.' Counselor play is lame because you are effectively doomed to die. Jason doesn't get punished for his misuse of skills. Jason needs larger cooldowns. Aside from that, something needs to be done about Jason grabbing and then immediately following up with an execution without even a second of delay.

Effectively, composure and strength are useless stats. Now add in the fact that if two counselors are side by side, Jason can grab and execute one of them without the other even having a chance to respond (save their teammate).

Fundamentally I just think counselors should be able to escape Jason's grab without the use of a pocket knife-- which as of right now, can't actually be done unless Jason is desperately trying to take you to a far away environmental kill (or maybe he just isn't playing seriously at all).

Edited by Pikalicious
Minor Typos

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I actually don't see shift+grab so much as the issue, but rather the fact that counselor stats do no have a significant enough impact on their ability to get away. There are plenty of times when you play Jason (in rough terrain/inside buildings) that you may not get a kill selection because of the space required to execute. That is a pretty significant window to mash "A". However, the rate at which the break free fills up is pathetically slow (even with high composure/strength/perks). There are a number of viable solutions.

1) Cool-down on grab after shift (1.5-2 seconds)

2) Start counselor break free option at the start of the grab animation, not after they are lifted into the air.

3) Modify counselor stats to be more effective.

4) Adjust Jason's kill execution parameters.

5) Only wounded counselors can be grabbed. (Not a fan of this, it is Jason after all).

The only thing I will say for certain (IMO)

1) Jason is supposed to be OP. You are not meant to be likely to survive. That is the whole point.

2) Shift is necessary to make Jason effective (especially the walking Jasons)

3) Counselors should at least feel as though they have a chance, however minuscule, to break free without a pocket knife or playing against a Jason who chose elaborate space-consuming kills.

4) The thrill of the chase (cat and mouse) is what make counselor gameplay awesome. We need a slight bump to emphasize the chase before the cat eats the mouse.

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