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Vanessa Jones Is OP Between Counselor

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1 minute ago, badassgixxer05 said:

Ahab sent me a couple game invites last night, but both times i was in middle of match and didnt see til after, then had to hit the sac for work in the am. Should def all get up and play sometime!

Oh wow, we just miss each other then, lol.  Cool, we'll likely run into each other eventually, looking forward :)

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1 hour ago, glowing ooze said:

vanessa is not OP. she's down with OPP.

 

1 hour ago, badassgixxer05 said:

Yeah you know me! 😈

You two made my day with that. So many memories of the 90's.

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37 minutes ago, glowing ooze said:

you and @badassgixxer05 survived the 90's, now alls ya gotta do is survive the night... ki ki ki..

Unless you have 10 throwing knives to use just for me alone. Lucky for me

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11 minutes ago, DontZzz34 said:

Unless you have 10 throwing knives to use just for me alone. Lucky for me

that was all the dead people's fault for dying in such close quarters LOL

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Stalk is only useful for players actually playing to do anything besides troll or 'survive the night' via the time limit.

If you're dealing with those types. Jason HAS to be on the offensive, they don't have to do anything besides hop and hide....and they will just chill in cabins and wait for you to come to them. Especially if they have 4 sprays and a pocket knife already. They literally don't have to move. Can't surprise when its obvious they know you have to go on the offensive to kill the lobby.

Otherwise yeah, the meta of the game is bleh. I don't expect much to change though.

If they had any nerve, they would've kept special abilities or flat out prevented certain merchanics working for certain counselors, completely changing the entire game.

 

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4 hours ago, thrawn3054 said:

As has been said above, if you take her by surprise it's easy.

That's called "rape", just so you know 😁

I don't really have much problem with Vanessas. Sure, they're fast and pack a lot of stamina, but they're loud as shit. All the speed and stamina in the world won't save you if Jason knows where you are at all times. On that note: Jasons, I suggest breaking down at least 1 door on every cabin you pass by, even if nobody is in there. It may seem like a waste of time but trust me, it''s not. Anyone who has ever had to chase down a final girl/guy that climbs through a window, waits till you break the door, then runs to the next cabin to repeat the process will tell you how much of a blessing it is to have them run to a cabin that you have an easy way inside of. 

Granted, they might run into one of those cabins with green interior doors (which they will no doubt lock and wait by an open window) but then again they may run into one of those "2-room" ones and trap themselves in the bedroom. 

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1 hour ago, GeneiJin said:

Its cool man, like I always preach "there is no shame in dying as Jason" and I myself have died 4 times.  @Ahab and I were talking about quick draws knives last night and in general agreement that its now janked, like I've complained about before in some of my recent posts.  Sometimes it isn't a issues, and other times it completely misses it's mark.

    For me, the throwing knives are glitching quite a bit. Almost half the knives I threw last night sat in front of my face twirling in mid air for a second or two... It was very strange, but I didn't record any of that happening to send in a report... unfortunately. It is unpredictable when this will happen, but if I remember correctly... this was mostly happening with quick throws. It happened to me a couple times with aimed throws too in the last few days.
    I still got a few long distance hits and quick throw hits when the knives did work properly... They are definitely still worth using. I think I used every throwing knife on the map in that final match last night and still couldn't kill Syri with that damned Kevlar sweater... I am also a bit rusty with those long distance throws, but it is coming back quickly enough.
 

1 hour ago, badassgixxer05 said:

Ahab sent me a couple game invites last night, but both times i was in middle of match and didnt see til after, then had to hit the sac for work in the am. Should def all get up and play sometime!

   We have bad timing with the invites sometimes... shit happens. I will try again when I see you playing... We cannot always have bad timing.
   For the matches last night when I did have issues with the throwing knives, I did not think to check the pings. Next time I will check. When the knives were twirling in mid air in front of my face, I was still able to move though... and I did not notice any stutter that often comes with lag spikes.
 

2 hours ago, Siph said:

I would argue that Vanessa isn't op, but she's one of the only counselors who can give Jason an extremely rough time if the person is skilled. You know what I learned from a lobby full of Vanessa mains? Throwing Knives work like a charm! Don't waste the knives on low stamina counselors like Deborah because they have a shorter timer on kiting because of their stamina bank. Also knock off the lights if a Vanessa is troubling you in end game. Unless the Vanessa is running Nerves of Steel, you should be able to shift grab them by mindgaming them.

    Vanessa is not the only counselor that can give Jason an extremely rough time. The point most people completely ignore... its not the counselor, it is the player that gives Jason an extremely rough time.
    I have some extremely skilled players in my friends list... and they are great practice to chase them down, no matter which counselor they are playing.
   
@GeneiJin typically plays Vanessa or Jenny... and to tell the truth, I have had a harder time catching and killing his Jenny in many matches... when he doesn't kill my beloved Part 4 first that is.
    Another player in my friends list named "Ghostface" is one of the best kiters I have ever seen and VERY often survives the night with any of the slow counselors... against the best Jason players out there. 
    @Ambiguously gay batman is also a great kiter... and mains Jenny. But I don't think she visits the forum much anymore... "Sneaky Rogue" is one of the sneakiest players I know and makes most Vanessa players look like amateurs with A.J. @badassgixxer05 has played Tiffany in many (or most) of our matches together and he is always VERY difficult to catch.
    I could name many other great players that will kite Jason around for a great deal of the match with Deborah, Mitch, our lord and savior... Lachoppa… and yes... even the mighty Shelly with his aerodynamic haircut.
    I myself mostly play A.J. or Mitch (have not played Mitch in a while though) and will often give very skilled Jason players a headache as I very slowly jog away from them and zig zag through their throwing knives. However, even the best of us sometimes die first... and sometimes even pretty early in a match... No one is perfect... and you cannot judge anyone with one match... We all have good and bad games.

    And yes.... even a Vanessa running nerves of steel is still easy to catch if you are sneaky enough... The no fear build does not work nearly as well on low composure counselors... and Vanessa will still fall to fear quickly with the no fear build and start stumbling all over the place.
   Those of us that know how to manage our stamina can and will run Jason around the map... no matter the Jason player's skill level... and no matter which counselor we choose to play... because it is not the counselor... it is the person playing that counselor. 

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3 hours ago, Ahab said:

    For me, the throwing knives are glitching quite a bit. Almost half the knives I threw last night sat in front of my face twirling in mid air for a second or two... It was very strange, but I didn't record any of that happening to send in a report... unfortunately. It is unpredictable when this will happen, but if I remember correctly... this was mostly happening with quick throws. It happened to me a couple times with aimed throws too in the last few days.
    I still got a few long distance hits and quick throw hits when the knives did work properly... They are definitely still worth using. I think I used every throwing knife on the map in that final match last night and still couldn't kill Syri with that damned Kevlar sweater... I am also a bit rusty with those long distance throws, but it is coming back quickly enough.
 

   We have bad timing with the invites sometimes... shit happens. I will try again when I see you playing... We cannot always have bad timing.
   For the matches last night when I did have issues with the throwing knives, I did not think to check the pings. Next time I will check. When the knives were twirling in mid air in front of my face, I was still able to move though... and I did not notice any stutter that often comes with lag spikes.
 

    Vanessa is not the only counselor that can give Jason an extremely rough time. The point most people completely ignore... its not the counselor, it is the player that gives Jason an extremely rough time.
    I have some extremely skilled players in my friends list... and they are great practice to chase them down, no matter which counselor they are playing.
   
@GeneiJin typically plays Vanessa or Jenny... and to tell the truth, I have had a harder time catching and killing his Jenny in many matches... when he doesn't kill my beloved Part 4 first that is.
    Another player in my friends list named "Ghostface" is one of the best kiters I have ever seen and VERY often survives the night with any of the slow counselors... against the best Jason players out there. 
    @Ambiguously gay batman is also a great kiter... and mains Jenny. But I don't think she visits the forum much anymore... "Sneaky Rogue" is one of the sneakiest players I know and makes most Vanessa players look like amateurs with A.J. @badassgixxer05 has played Tiffany in many (or most) of our matches together and he is always VERY difficult to catch.
    I could name many other great players that will kite Jason around for a great deal of the match with Deborah, Mitch, our lord and savior... Lachoppa… and yes... even the mighty Shelly with his aerodynamic haircut.
    I myself mostly play A.J. or Mitch (have not played Mitch in a while though) and will often give very skilled Jason players a headache as I very slowly jog away from them and zig zag through their throwing knives. However, even the best of us sometimes die first... and sometimes even pretty early in a match... No one is perfect... and you cannot judge anyone with one match... We all have good and bad games.

    And yes.... even a Vanessa running nerves of steel is still easy to catch if you are sneaky enough... The no fear build does not work nearly as well on low composure counselors... and Vanessa will still fall to fear quickly with the no fear build and start stumbling all over the place.
   Those of us that know how to manage our stamina can and will run Jason around the map... no matter the Jason player's skill level... and no matter which counselor we choose to play... because it is not the counselor... it is the person playing that counselor. 

I definitely do not believe Vanessa is the only counselor who can survive the night, I just believe she's highly effective at doing it! You're right about it being based on the skill level of both the Jason and the counselor involved but I often struggle a little more with Jenny then Vanessa because of her 3/10 speed. Every counselor can survive the night, but certain ones are always the better choice aka Vanessa. You're going to have an entirely easier time moving cabin to cabin with Vanessa rather then someone like Deborah who struggles with stamina issues. If you're surviving the night already as Jenny, I believe that if you switch to Vanessa you're just going to have a better time at it. 

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37 minutes ago, Siph said:

I definitely do not believe Vanessa is the only counselor who can survive the night, I just believe she's highly effective at doing it! You're right about it being based on the skill level of both the Jason and the counselor involved but I often struggle a little more with Jenny then Vanessa because of her 3/10 speed. Every counselor can survive the night, but certain ones are always the better choice aka Vanessa. You're going to have an entirely easier time moving cabin to cabin with Vanessa rather then someone like Deborah who struggles with stamina issues. If you're surviving the night already as Jenny, I believe that if you switch to Vanessa you're just going to have a better time at it. 

Surviving as any counselor is tied to your own skill, and the ability to think outside the box.

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5 minutes ago, Fair Play said:

Surviving as any counselor is tied to your own skill, and the ability to think outside the box.

Anyone can survive the night but certain counselors will be better at it. Like how a Vanessa can repair but a Deborah will have an easier time doing it.

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2 hours ago, Siph said:

Anyone can survive the night but certain counselors will be better at it. Like how a Vanessa can repair but a Deborah will have an easier time doing it.

While some counselors are better at certain tasks than others, your own skill and knowledge of the game is taken into account as well. I've seen players perform tasks their counselor isn't the most suited for.

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1 hour ago, Fair Play said:

While some counselors are better at certain tasks than others, your own skill and knowledge of the game is taken into account as well. I've seen players perform tasks their counselor isn't the most suited for.

All you've said is true, but you're ignoring the point that it's easier to do a job with one counselor that excels in it versus someone who's handicapped in that area. You'll be sweating less hard playing as Vanessa if you're used to surviving the night as Jenny.

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1 hour ago, Siph said:

All you've said is true, but you're ignoring the point that it's easier to do a job with one counselor that excels in it versus someone who's handicapped in that area. You'll be sweating less hard playing as Vanessa if you're used to surviving the night as Jenny.

There are players who potentially have a better chance of survival as Vanessa. The point you seem to be overlooking is that counselor choice is part of the equation. Consider the player's skill as Jason, the Jason that is chosen by that player, the map selected, and a number of other things. All of those things factor in on how easy or difficult a time that a player has in a match. That holds true for Vanessa, Jenny, or anyone else.

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31 minutes ago, Fair Play said:

There are players who potentially have a better chance of survival as Vanessa. The point you seem to be overlooking is that counselor choice is part of the equation. Consider the player's skill as Jason, the Jason that is chosen by that player, the map selected, and a number of other things. All of those things factor in on how easy or difficult a time that a player has in a match. That holds true for Vanessa, Jenny, or anyone else.

The counselor choice is a big part of the equation here. Maps are the same, there's a couple of houses and a break and it repeats. Jasons have different Pros/Cons but that's exactly why Vanessa is always the better choice. A Jason with a Pro | Shift will wear down lower stamina pool counselors much faster due to repetitive attempts at shift grabs. Even Jasons with the Pro | Can Run will wear down counselors that have awful speed stats such as Jenny. Vanessa doesn't suffer from these stats as much. Skill level, as stated before matters but picking the best counselor will help those with high skill levels have easier times in matches. Look at any reputable tier list and you will ALWAYS see Vanessa as the top tier counselor. I'm not saying it's impossible for any other counselor to survive, I'm just questioning the difficulty of it because I can't believe a Jenny player with 3/10 Speed and 5/10 Stamina will not have to work harder versus a Vanessa player with 10/10 Speed and 9/10 Stamina. These are the two MOST important stats for surviving the night because once rage hits (as it always does and you can't prevent it) stats such as Luck and Stealth are thrown out the window.

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15 hours ago, Siph said:

I definitely do not believe Vanessa is the only counselor who can survive the night, I just believe she's highly effective at doing it! You're right about it being based on the skill level of both the Jason and the counselor involved but I often struggle a little more with Jenny then Vanessa because of her 3/10 speed. Every counselor can survive the night, but certain ones are always the better choice aka Vanessa. You're going to have an entirely easier time moving cabin to cabin with Vanessa rather then someone like Deborah who struggles with stamina issues. If you're surviving the night already as Jenny, I believe that if you switch to Vanessa you're just going to have a better time at it. 

   While any counselor is fully capable of surviving the night, any player is not necessarily going to survive the night.
   Even with a speed of 3... running Jason's cannot catch up to you on a straight line chase while you are jogging. Stamina management is not difficult, and it also leaves you giving off WAY less sound pings by not sprinting all over the map... When there is only one counselor left... it is sound pings that generally give you away, or a lucky morph by the Jason player... particularly on large maps. Even in rage, Jason's sense is not as all encompassing as many people think. But sound pings you can see from the opposite side of the map... and the size of the ping is a dead giveaway to direction and distance of the player.
   Vanessa has several weak points... her stomping around makes her easy to pick out with sound pings, and even with a no fear build, she will quickly start stumbling around with Jason behind her... Stumbling is why most overconfident Vanessa's end up in Jason's grip... and die... Her repairs take forever and a day... and don't make a mistake... if Jason shows up, all that time trying to repair something was a complete waste of time.

    Yes she is fast... yes she has high stamina... So what. Vanessa as a counselor was NEVER challenging to catch... well, maybe when we were new Jason players... but that never lasts long. Certain players on the other hand do make it a challenge to catch them and it matters not which counselor they play... even when you are a damned good Jason player and know all of the ins and outs. 
   Faster does not mean better... but in the end it is a matter of personal preference. Players that know how to use any counselor's strengths... and how to work around their weaknesses will consistently do better than those who do not understand this... It does not matter which counselor they are using.

  For me, I do not like how long it takes Vanessa to repair something. In many matches, it seems I am the only one doing the repairs at all... and I like to be able to do this in a timely manner. High repair skill gives you the ability to repair things in Jason's face, I find this more useful than high speed... and almost every time I have died as Vanessa was due to staggering caused by high fear... Yes... a skilled player can kite Jason effectively for a long time... but a skilled player does not require Vanessa to do this.
   Once again, personal preference. One player's favorite counselor is another player's worst counselor.... which makes what you call a "reputable tier list"... bunk. There are no reputable tier lists, all that ANY of them are is that person's preference... and "clickbait". Players that only take what everyone else calls "the best" or "easiest" counselor to play will NEVER be the best players in the game. Everything is situational... and you will find MANY situations in which Vanessa's "strengths" do not help you... at all.

    9 out of 10 sciencticians agree.... its not rocket surgery. 

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1 hour ago, Ahab said:

   While any counselor is fully capable of surviving the night, any player is not necessarily going to survive the night.
   Even with a speed of 3... running Jason's cannot catch up to you on a straight line chase while you are jogging. Stamina management is not difficult, and it also leaves you giving off WAY less sound pings by not sprinting all over the map... When there is only one counselor left... it is sound pings that generally give you away, or a lucky morph by the Jason player... particularly on large maps. Even in rage, Jason's sense is not as all encompassing as many people think. But sound pings you can see from the opposite side of the map... and the size of the ping is a dead giveaway to direction and distance of the player.
   Vanessa has several weak points... her stomping around makes her easy to pick out with sound pings, and even with a no fear build, she will quickly start stumbling around with Jason behind her... Stumbling is why most overconfident Vanessa's end up in Jason's grip... and die... Her repairs take forever and a day... and don't make a mistake... if Jason shows up, all that time trying to repair something was a complete waste of time.

    Yes she is fast... yes she has high stamina... So what. Vanessa as a counselor was NEVER challenging to catch... well, maybe when we were new Jason players... but that never lasts long. Certain players on the other hand do make it a challenge to catch them and it matters not which counselor they play... even when you are a damned good Jason player and know all of the ins and outs. 
   Faster does not mean better... but in the end it is a matter of personal preference. Players that know how to use any counselor's strengths... and how to work around their weaknesses will consistently do better than those who do not understand this... It does not matter which counselor they are using.

  For me, I do not like how long it takes Vanessa to repair something. In many matches, it seems I am the only one doing the repairs at all... and I like to be able to do this in a timely manner. High repair skill gives you the ability to repair things in Jason's face, I find this more useful than high speed... and almost every time I have died as Vanessa was due to staggering caused by high fear... Yes... a skilled player can kite Jason effectively for a long time... but a skilled player does not require Vanessa to do this.
   Once again, personal preference. One player's favorite counselor is another player's worst counselor.... which makes what you call a "reputable tier list"... bunk. There are no reputable tier lists, all that ANY of them are is that person's preference... and "clickbait". Players that only take what everyone else calls "the best" or "easiest" counselor to play will NEVER be the best players in the game. Everything is situational... and you will find MANY situations in which Vanessa's "strengths" do not help you... at all.

    9 out of 10 sciencticians agree.... its not rocket surgery. 

Actually, a can run Jason will be able to catch up to you if you're being Jenny. This will put more pressure onto you to start sprinting and wasting more stamina. It goes the same for any shift grab attempts, you have to start sprinting around in wild directions to avoid it and you know what sprinting around waste? Stamina. Do you know who has the best Stamina stat? Vanessa and Tiffany. 

 For the sound ping argument, I think you guys overrate not having sound ping when Jason can literally spot you across the map with Sense. Also do you know what I do when I don't see any sound pings on the map? I use Sense. No matter how far or close they are you can detect them with Sense and you'll get the exact location unless they're hiding with sense avoidance perks but even then that's based on luck and RNG. 

Vanessa repair is easy to manipulate once you get the hang of it and personally I find myself repairing half the time due to high repair counselors hiding in cabins all game. High Repair is surely good in a normal game, but if we're talking about Surviving the Night then repair is useless against a Jason with half a brain. Repairing is thrown out the window here and the only thing it remains good for is to turn on power boxes when giving the right time. Even so, unless Jason is literally on her tail, a good Vanessa can manipulate skill checks and repair with ease. 

Vanessa is the catalyst and the players are the one using her. However Vanessa is a very effective counselors and good players will have a more easier time shining a light on her versus Jenny. You may call the tier lists "opinionated" but that's exactly what they are. That's what this and yours is. Opinions. It's how we can base our opinions on facts and the reputable tier list I like to look at do just that. Vanessa is a Jason's enemy number one when played right. She's quick as a rabbit, she can repair in a niche, and she can protect her fellow counselors with her good luck. 

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21 hours ago, Ahab said:

    For me, the throwing knives are glitching quite a bit. Almost half the knives I threw last night sat in front of my face twirling in mid air for a second or two... It was very strange, but I didn't record any of that happening to send in a report... unfortunately. It is unpredictable when this will happen, but if I remember correctly... this was mostly happening with quick throws. It happened to me a couple times with aimed throws too in the last few days.
 

The knife twirling thing has happened to me for the past year plus...

Then again I always quick throw. 

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32 minutes ago, Siph said:

Actually, a can run Jason will be able to catch up to you if you're being Jenny.

  In a chase that moves ONLY in a straight line, running Jasons gain ZERO ground on you. If you change direction... even slightly, then the angle of attack changes he will be catching up to you due to something called geometry. 
  You also DO NOT have to sprint to avoid a shift grab... The grab must be aimed fairly accurately to actually grab someone... If you know what you are doing, you can run circles around VERY skilled Jasons for several minutes before they will land a grab... Sprinting can help avoid a shift grab, just do not start sprinting until he is almost on top of you. The mistake I see all the time with this... counselors start sprinting the moment Jason shifts at them, from a long way away... wasting far more stamina than is necessary.
   If you have not noticed yet, the grab is EXTREMELY easy to punish and has been since the engine upgrade.
 

40 minutes ago, Siph said:

No matter how far or close they are you can detect them with Sense and you'll get the exact location unless they're hiding with sense avoidance perks but even then that's based on luck and RNG. 

   WRONG... if this was true, you would see all seven counselors every time you use sense (barring sense avoidance perks, but VERY few people actually use them). When is the last time this happened to you in game with AT LEAST one counselor on the other side of the map?.... The only correct answer to this question is... NEVER. This should not need to be explained to anyone who has even played one game as Jason and can count to seven.
   As I said in the last post that you just responded to... even in rage, sense DOES NOT have the range many people think it does. It has a larger range in rage... but I don't think it is more than 1.5 times the pre rage range.
   Before rage, when playing a counselor, you know you are in range of sense when you hear Jason's music... This may not be 100% accurate within an eighth of an inch or anything, but it is damned close. Rage increases the range, but not nearly as much as you think.
   As far as sense avoidance perks... wait until you actually play against a player that knows how to use the stealth system, and knows enough not to use them on a counselor that constantly gives off sound pings no matter what you do... like Vanessa.... Against a player like this, you will probably never know they were around... They know enough to get shit repaired and get the hell out before Jason notices them... They are not meant to turn you into a superpowered invisible ninja that can survive the night every match you use them... like many people think they should work.
 

48 minutes ago, Siph said:

Even so, unless Jason is literally on her tail, a good Vanessa can manipulate skill checks and repair with ease. 

    Some players can, most cannot. That and it take an eternity to finish a repair even if you do not screw it up... and in this game... seconds wasted can mean life or death... You will learn this... eventually. It is really starting to sound like you have never played against a Jason player that knows the ins and outs of the game.

    Vanessa is NOT hard to catch.... Stalk + sense + morph + shift... this works on ANY counselor, whether the player is good or bad. You would not believe how many times I have heard someone tell me how useless it is to go into stalk because they can see me... and after morphing ahead of them and shift grabbing them with sense turned on... they are in my grip before they can finish saying it... Some people are just not that bright, but eventually they learn.... It also helps if you know where the morph pins are.
 

51 minutes ago, Siph said:

Vanessa is a very effective counselors and good players will have a more easier time shining a light on her versus Jenny.

   As stated before... Vanessa is nothing... it is the player using Vanessa. @GeneiJin is the best player I have seen in this game, be it as Jason or as counselor... There may be better players out there, but I have not run into them... As I said before... I have a harder time catching his Jenny than I do catching his Vanessa. Why is this you ask?.... The fear mechanic. Even with the no fear build... Vanessa falls to fear WAY too quickly around Jason, whether the lights were knocked out or not... Her stumbling is her biggest weakness... not just for catching up to her... but she is also now an extremely easy target to hit with a throwing knife while in the stumble animation... Wait until you run into a Jason player that knows how to do a quick throw properly. Another drawback of Vanessa's decent into fear... her massive stamina pool now takes FOREVER to regenerate.
   Jenny, with a no fear perk build, Jason can chase her for a very long time and she will not stumble... The fear will catch up to her eventually, but it takes a long time... and until the fear catches up to her, her lesser stamina pool regenerates VERY quickly due to her lack of fear.

    Relying on what you (or others) think is the best overall counselor will do nothing but leave your skills lacking elsewhere.

   All this being said... I am having an EXTREMELY difficult time believing that you have been playing this game for as long as you said you have been.... Most of this you should have figured out within your first few days of playing... and you talk like I don't know what I am talking about... which is the funniest thing I have heard all day.
 

1 hour ago, SirMang said:

The knife twirling thing has happened to me for the past year plus...

Then again I always quick throw. 

    I have not seen it happen until recently... Nor do I remember reading about it here. I quick throw most of my knives... have to keep the skills sharp after all. But this bug is getting annoying.

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1 hour ago, Ahab said:

You also DO NOT have to sprint to avoid a shift grab... The grab must be aimed fairly accurately to actually grab someone... If you know what you are doing, you can run circles around VERY skilled Jasons for several minutes before they will land a grab...

I've never heard of a person jogging and winning against a shift grab. Unless the Jason has half a brain, he'll end up grabbing you. Besides, you're undervaluing the ground Jason gets from his shifts, even if the Jason SOMEHOW misses the Jenny, he'll be right behind her. That leaves her vulnerable to his next shift, throwing knives, and if he's close enough his melee attacks. I'm not saying the Jenny is always out in the open because we both know that is a poor move but once she exhausts the houses in her area, she is bound to travel to another group of houses. 

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

WRONG... if this was true, you would see all seven counselors every time you use sense (barring sense avoidance perks, but VERY few people actually use them). When is the last time this happened to you in game with AT LEAST one counselor on the other side of the map?.... The only correct answer to this question is... NEVER. This should not need to be explained to anyone who has even played one game as Jason and can count to seven.

My mistake if you were confused but I never tried to say that Jason's sense ability can right from the get-go pick up ALL 7 counselors. I'm talking about once Jason hits Rage. When he hits Rage his range to where he can pick up counselors is extended. If he can't pick up your hiding Jenny from one side of the map, eventually with probably not even three morphs he'll be able to detect her. Yeah, that may waste a little bit of his time but that's nothing compared to the benefits of Vanessa's stats which can waste even more time with her kiting skills aided by her Speed and Stamina stats. 

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

As far as sense avoidance perks... wait until you actually play against a player that knows how to use the stealth system, and knows enough not to use them on a counselor that constantly gives off sound pings no matter what you do... like Vanessa.... Against a player like this, you will probably never know they were around... They know enough to get shit repaired and get the hell out before Jason notices them... They are not meant to turn you into a superpowered invisible ninja that can survive the night every match you use them... like many people think they should work.

Funny on how in my 325 hours in game (Which you seem to for some reason doubt :)) I've never went against a single person who knew "How to use the stealth system". Do you know why? Because stealth is a situational and useless stat. If we're assuming that your stealth system users are surviving the night through repairs.... I'm sorry I just don't believe it. The car makes a starting sound when activated, the phone makes the cop sounds, and you can't assume there will be a boat every round because it's always by luck. Besides, these areas are always trapped and Jason will be alerted as soon as you even try to attempt anything.

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Some players can, most cannot. That and it take an eternity to finish a repair even if you do not screw it up

I wouldn't argue that most cannot, if fact I think it's general knowledge on how to manipulate skill checks and it's one of the things you learn very early on. Even if the Vanessa messes up the repair, she can still make a quick get a way versus someone like Jenny who's stuck running away at turtle's speed.

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Vanessa is NOT hard to catch.... Stalk + sense + morph + shift... this works on ANY counselor

You're right, it works on any counselors as it should because it's his catching method. I'm not arguing that you cannot catch a Vanessa, I'm just saying that a competent Vanessa will not fall easily to a shift grab. Do you know how many Jasons I know use stalk efficently? Not a lot. In fact I think it's more common to see a repairing Vanessa not messing up a repair versus any Jason using Stalk in such a powerful way that it apparently ends all Vanessas.

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

. @GeneiJin is the best player I have seen in this game, be it as Jason or as counselor... There may be better players out there, but I have not run into them... As I said before... I have a harder time catching his Jenny than I do catching his Vanessa.

You cannot use a single person to represent a whole player base.

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

The fear mechanic. Even with the no fear build... Vanessa falls to fear WAY too quickly around Jason, whether the lights were knocked out or not... Her stumbling is her biggest weakness... not just for catching up to her... but she is also now an extremely easy target to hit with a throwing knife while in the stumble animation... Wait until you run into a Jason player that knows how to do a quick throw properly

You're assuming my experiences, once again. I've dealt with players who know how to "quick throw properly" and I've beat them before. You're relying on stumbling which is already rng as it is to get a hit on Vanessa. But you can still do the same with Jenny because she's very slow. I will have a better time dodging a knife as Vanessa versus Jenny. Besides, you're also acting like this is all outdoors when pretty much more then half the battle is indoors where you should be shielded by such knives.

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

her massive stamina pool now takes FOREVER to regenerate.
   Jenny, with a no fear perk build, Jason can chase her for a very long time and she will not stumble.

Good Vanessa players will always conserve their stamina and with her vast stamina pool, never be at threat of running out. Your only argument is that a certain player with a certain build on Jenny will beat Vanessa. You're not looking at how the Vanessa is built at all. Also if the Jenny is running three fear resistance perks, it only takes two throwing knives to injure her and slow her down enough for the kill

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

and you talk like I don't know what I am talking about... which is the funniest thing I have heard all day.

You seem offended. I'm not saying that you don't know what you're talking about, I'm just questioning your belief in discussion. Which is what you do.. on the forums.

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6 hours ago, Ahab said:

   Once again, personal preference. One player's favorite counselor is another player's worst counselor.... which makes what you call a "reputable tier list"... bunk. There are no reputable tier lists, all that ANY of them are is that person's preference... and "clickbait". Players that only take what everyone else calls "the best" or "easiest" counselor to play will NEVER be the best players in the game. Everything is situational... and you will find MANY situations in which Vanessa's "strengths" do not help you... at all.

Players become the best by doing, rather than just taking someone else's word for it.

4 hours ago, SirMang said:

The knife twirling thing has happened to me for the past year plus...

Then again I always quick throw. 

Sounds like Tina might have something to do with those twirling knives.I knew she'd sneak in this game one day...

1 hour ago, Siph said:

I've never heard of a person jogging and winning against a shift grab.

Just because you've never heard of it doesn't mean it's not a thing. I am amazed at the information shared by members. I've played this game quite a bit, and I still learn a few things from players who have put in a bit more time than I have.

Funny on how in my 325 hours in game (Which you seem to for some reason doubt :)) I've never went against a single person who knew "How to use the stealth system". Do you know why? Because stealth is a situational and useless stat. If we're assuming that your stealth system users are surviving the night through repairs.... I'm sorry I just don't believe it. The car makes a starting sound when activated, the phone makes the cop sounds, and you can't assume there will be a boat every round because it's always by luck. Besides, these areas are always trapped and Jason will be alerted as soon as you even try to attempt anything.

Every Jason is potentially alerted by the sound cues. Seasoned Jason players make good use of this. A number of new players haven't caught on to it yet, but their time will come.

I wouldn't argue that most cannot, if fact I think it's general knowledge on how to manipulate skill checks and it's one of the things you learn very early on. Even if the Vanessa messes up the repair, she can still make a quick get a way versus someone like Jenny who's stuck running away at turtle's speed.

There are still a number of players who don't understand the process of manipulating the skill checks. Some will learn, while others won't.

You're right, it works on any counselors as it should because it's his catching method. I'm not arguing that you cannot catch a Vanessa, I'm just saying that a competent Vanessa will not fall easily to a shift grab. Do you know how many Jasons I know use stalk efficently? Not a lot. In fact I think it's more common to see a repairing Vanessa not messing up a repair versus any Jason using Stalk in such a powerful way that it apparently ends all Vanessas. There are many good Jason players who use Stalk responsibly. As the newest players get more experience under their belt, you'll see it a lot more.

You cannot use a single person to represent a whole player base. I don't believe @Ahab is using a single player to represent the entire player base. It's more like he's using a single player as an example of the point he is trying to make.

You seem offended. I'm not saying that you don't know what you're talking about, I'm just questioning your belief in discussion. Which is what you do.. on the forums.

The issue here is not a lack of belief in discussion. It's more of an expression of a slightly different view from your own. That is the nature of debate. Some of the best topics here bring out good conversations about the issues members feel strongly about.

 

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51 minutes ago, Fair Play said:

Players become the best by doing, rather than just taking someone else's word for it.

Sounds like Tina might have something to do with those twirling knives.I knew she'd sneak in this game one day...

 

To sum up your argument it's "wait till new players learn" but for now that isn't the case. Maybe I'll reconsider my opinion on stalk kills but to me at this very moment, they're rare and aren't as effective as you guys propose.

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