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tyrant666

Feedback that you will realize was all true in 2-4 months - 2 Years Later Edition

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I thought it would be interesting to go back to one of the more controversial threads from one of the more hated members of the community 2 years back and see if it still holds as much water as it arguably did back then.

Original thread for reference made back on June 2, 2017. My opinions will be bolded under his.

http://forum.f13game.com/topic/5806-feedback-that-you-will-realize-was-all-true-in-2-4-months/?tab=comments#comment-69747

1) Jason is a one trick pony. His only strength is shift. Outside of that he is a harmless jogger. I realize people complain about shift grabs, but without that he literally has nothing. Someone that wants to be lazy about it can just grab healkits with medkit perk and chill hopping through one of the many safe windows that won't allow morph/shift plays.

This is probably true. Good versions of meta perks basically mean knives are Jasons bread and butter. Without them, his only hope is a lucky shift grab even two years later or shift/slash/grab and if the remaining counselors have hoarded items, good luck with that.

2) A blocking Jason negates flareguns, beartraps and can pretty much tank whatever you throw at him - this will lead to stalemates when perks are going where councellors will be in a tag-team with one standing in his face to tank a hit so Jason opens himself up for a hit from the second guy. A good jason cannot grab in a 2vs1 so that is the only play he has - swinging.

Part of this is partially outdated since they patched out some of this, but the point about 2vs1 does still stand. His only play is swinging and the counselors will go grab more weapons in the mean time.

3) The game needs more fixed spawn. Pocket knifes for starters. It becomes boring very fast to go through 20 lockers and end up with a map and a talkie. Chars like Buggzy cannot really play their protector role well when all they can really safely aquire is a medkit + starting with a firecracker.

This I would disagree with him slightly. RNG pocket knives give everybody a chance to get them, instead of the 4 Vanessas/Tiffs/Chad getting to hoard them before everybody else. The only time this is an issue is if they spawn at the camp fires, they get hoarded much more quickly here. If they removed the RNG, it wouldn't be as fair I feel.

4) Rolling perk system will agitate people and make them quit very soon. After 200ish rolls they will (for good reason) entitled to perk X. Especially since they are poorly balanced and some massively outperform all others. You will not fix the balance anyhow otherwise you would have done so since the beta. It is the same perks that are pretty much outshining everything. You should simply allow ppl to re-roll the rarity of any given perk even if it is a bit more expensive. In probably over 150 rolls I have seen attack speed once (white) and prevention of HUD aswell. There are probably perks I still didn't see at all.

He is 100 percent correct about this. The Las Vegas nature of the system was a huge mistake and it probably did turn many away from the game. Add to that the weak nature of many of them. I'd like to be optimistic and hope Wes goes through with a new system, but I can't be.

5) Jason Kill mechanic is a gigantic system to make ppl frustrated because some random guy has no clue and will therefor invalidate all effort you put into the kill. There should be a way to solo kill jason even if it is a lot harder. It is okay to fail on your own - it does not feel okay to fail because your jarvis doesn't speak english and cannot understand that all he has to press is E or is afk pooping. You might also want Jarvis to spawn with firecracker/pocketknife and a healing kit to give him the fighting toolkit. A hero needs equipment after all and by the time he spawns loot is scarce.

Most of this was addressed. They eventually gave Jarvis a tool kit. Given how easy it is to kill Jason now, I'd completely be against the idea of allowing even one player to be able to do it. You don't need much to kill him these days. His only hope is a mixed lobby.

6) Jason Mask item should probably block off sense and be somewhat a valuable item.

Even though it prevents Jason from knowing when someone enters his shack. He is 100 percent correct in that not only should it be able to block off sense for the person having it, but in reverse, Jason should be able to pick it up and put it back on as a consequence for not grabbing it. Thus given him the ability to protect himself against the kill. So again, 2 years later and this is still correct.

7) In an effort to make him look less like a fool you implemented various magic invul frames which not only are hard to grasp for beginners but are also a very poor bandaid.

Its funny because they kinda addressed this and it made Jason much worse to play over the course of 2017 into 2018. A lot of this up close abilities were weakened and he was made more stunnable.

8)To sum Jason up: You designed him several years just so he can be a poor slasher with no real strength and the only strength he has is a noob-killer making them feel cheated. In a month enough montages and clips will go through youtube that most of your playerbase will have witnessed how to bully a Jason and they will copy and lose all fear.

Unfortunately...this is probably close to the truth. They removed the force grab, which impacted shift grab and grab itself due to the complaints that it was too easy as Jason to use it. Then Jason couldn't grab 2 inches in front of his face. Then they changed it again and it felt mostly liked by both sides, then they randomly changed the grab animation all together, given it less overall 360 radius and instead more of a center cone range.

9) A typical scenario of 2 people being left after 4 ppl escaped e.g. via car is frustrating. There isn't much you can do. Many items will have left the map - heck what does the fuse guy care if he leaves with it through the car? He doesn't give a shit. Healingsprays, pocket knifes etc etc are all gone so that if you were the guy distracting Jason for a good 10 minutes you are left wounded and with a pan to fight back and ultimately die. I mean you can always say well you helped the group and that is indeed nice, but it would be nice if there was something you can still realistically do in terms of escaping. There is no way you gonna find all the parts to do an objective. The maps are huge and there is a killer spamming sense every 2s. Sneaking all houses is out of the question since there is a timelimit.

This kinda goes back to his first point. Half the meta is simply running around with a good thick skin/medic/hypo combo because that's one of the best ways to survive. Although harder now if the kill scenario is off the table in the later stages of the game with the rage buff, but still doable once Jason runs out of knives and can't land a shift grab or shift/slash/grab in open areas (mostly as undead Jasons, running Jasons can manage better). He right though, there is absolutely no credible late game stealth/sneak around/hide style gameplay whatsoever.

10) The car could probably do without the key requirement. The motorboat doesn't need a key and is virtually the same as the 2-seater only better in all regards.

I'd disagree with him on this, even though people holding onto the keys is very frustrating, especially if they haven't dropped them yet so they can be seen on the maps. I would think removing the keys would make starting cars even easier. I disagree with him about the boat being better than the 2 seater since I feel like most people avoid the boat because of instant kill in the water and because its much harder to find the propeller than any other part. I'm always happy as Jason when the boat spawns because I know that's literally one objective that's gonna sit there and collect dust and only move if im too occupied elsewhere.

11) Dodge not really functional. Stumbling is a better dodge :D

Debatable. Counselors stumbling opens them up to knives if you have them. On the topic of counselor combat, I'd agree. Unless you're using the power attack for the Jason demask, its next to useless compared to Jason's much more crucial blocking mechanic. Even though that in itself is pretty bad, especially if the lobby is loaded with swift attackers.

12)The game is fun, but the frustration factor is also big - probably the reason the population is taking a dive fast.

I agree on both points.

Despite all my bitching and moaning. The game is fun, but even before the lawsuit was ever a glint in our eyes. The population was taking hits left and right and frustration was probably a big factor in this.

Any thoughts? Agree or disagree with his assessments nearly two years later?

tumblr_o06me1foTi1szzka4o1_500.gif

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@mattshotcha

From my experience of playing as Jason I have changed up my play style after some of the patches.

His grab ability feels like you lubed up your sweaty palms and are trying to grab a chicken like Rocky Balboa while Mick (mother) talks to you. "If you can catch this thing you can catch greased lighting''...or a lobby full of Vanessas.

It starts to make Jason look like a fool when you have high ping and lag in a match. Every character can slow jog him around and laugh while he grabs nothing but air multiple times. Loop him around an object, long table, close doors in his face, loop in and out of windows etc.

tumblr_n5y6g1JHBT1rp0vkjo2_400.gif

 

Not being able to grab a counselor through a window and watch them slowly crawl to safety is funny. Jason can grab people through a window in the movies. Ain't got time for that in a video game.

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During grab kill animations counselors can hit you multiple times to try to knock your mask off and you can't move until you finish the animation. They have a high chance to stun you right after you regain control and get a few more hits in too.

This is why I prefer kill animations that are very fast over using slow animations that leave you open to get attacked for way too long. Not much time after pulling a driver out of a stopped car before another player tries to start it. Save a slow kill for the last survivor.

Knives are good to collect. Often miss while in a lobby with lag issues. Save them for when a counselor goes through a window and hit them on the other side. Great for destroying cars with the knife bug. 😂

From playing against offline bots that all spawn with 2 or 3 pocket knives I always slash everyone to death now. As grabbing feels goofy missing multiple times in high ping lobbies. Also grinding out 1,000 matches as Jason will have you going for the most effective ways to end a match quickly.

I use Savini Jason, with the hedge trimmers. Combat stance attack doors for faster animations with the 1 handed attack. Faster to destroy cabin walls instead of using a 2 handed weapon. Very long shift. The other Jason I'll use is Part 4.

Tested out the other Jasons but I don't like how long it takes to destroy doors or slash counselors to death with Thick Skin and Medic.

My favorite counselor is Cobra Kai Chad. After testing every counselor 1vs1 against Jason for a few hours.

Thick Skin, Marathon, Restful. Can easily keep Jason busy in a 1vs1 situation. :chadwut:

How can you lose with a face like this? :chadjunk:

687y3s.jpg

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1. I don’t believe shift is Jason’s only true strength, I’ve killed several counselors inside a cabin just waiting for them to come inside to kill them. The problem is, is most Jason’s don’t think outside the box enough to know how to use stalk properly. They all use a direct approach every game. Also I have killed many counselors with throwing knives alone.

also Stalk is very very powerful!!! 

2. This is true. If there’s more then one counselor it is best to slash. 

3. I think spawn for items is fine. 

4. I agree with the perk system. I hate it. I wish they would’ve just made it so you can buy whatever perk you want at whatever level (epic, legendary, etc...) and just make the perk cost more cp.

5. I wish you could kill jason solo. I usually play by myself and if I fight Jason it’s almost always in a 1v1. It needs to be made difficult though. Right now the kill is too easy. 

6. With how easy Jason’s mask should fall off, it shouldn’t block off sense. 

7. ?

8. To sum Jason up he is really good in the right hands. He is really strong in terms of stalk, throwing knives, and shift for killing counselors. But Jason’s combat is absolute garbage. Jason’s combat stance is trash compared to counselors combat stance. Jason simply cannot swing and get back into block quick enough to counter groups beating on him. I also feel like his swinging range could be better. Sometimes it seems like a counselor can be jogging right in front of me and I’ll swing and it won’t even hit them, although they’re right in front of my face. I think the grab range and the grab overall is fine but the swinging range could be improved. 

9. When counselors escape camp their items will spawn at campfires usually. You’ll have plenty of items to help you survive the night. 

10. I disagree, cars require a key realistically to start them. It’s already easy to fix an entire car. Not requiring a key would make it way too easy to do car escapes. 

11. Counselors combat stance dodging is very powerful. You can literally juke Jason out and hit him over and over like a ninja if you know how to use it. Also don’t ask why hold breath meter is down there. I went in a hiding spot for a couple min for a bathroom break and it stuck to my screen lol 

12. The game is fun as hell. I also agree the game can be frustrating, mainly due to the bugs and glitches. But it’s not gonna stop me from playing a great game I have tons of fun playing. 

I’m gonna look forward to everyone’s responses 

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Much of what he says (in this particular post) is true.

Just because the guy took things too far at some point doesn't mean everything he has to say is worthless.

An intelligent person can discern between the messenger and the message.

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2 hours ago, gtdjlocker311 said:

An intelligent person can discern between the messenger and the message.

These are words to live by.

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5 hours ago, gtdjlocker311 said:

An intelligent person can discern between the messenger and the message.

I can see the truth through this.

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9 hours ago, Fair Play said:

These are words to live by.

I believe so, especially in politics (which we WON'T discuss here!).

5 hours ago, Jason Todd Voorhees said:

I can see the truth through this.

Hahaha, I'm not sure if I should feel insulted here!

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13 hours ago, DontZzz34 said:

1. I don’t believe shift is Jason’s only true strength, I’ve killed several counselors inside a cabin just waiting for them to come inside to kill them. The problem is, is most Jason’s don’t think outside the box enough to know how to use stalk properly. They all use a direct approach every game. Also I have killed many counselors with throwing knives alone.

also Stalk is very very powerful!!! 

2. This is true. If there’s more then one counselor it is best to slash. 

3. I think spawn for items is fine. 

4. I agree with the perk system. I hate it. I wish they would’ve just made it so you can buy whatever perk you want at whatever level (epic, legendary, etc...) and just make the perk cost more cp.

5. I wish you could kill jason solo. I usually play by myself and if I fight Jason it’s almost always in a 1v1. It needs to be made difficult though. Right now the kill is too easy. 

6. With how easy Jason’s mask should fall off, it shouldn’t block off sense. 

7. ?

8. To sum Jason up he is really good in the right hands. He is really strong in terms of stalk, throwing knives, and shift for killing counselors. But Jason’s combat is absolute garbage. Jason’s combat stance is trash compared to counselors combat stance. Jason simply cannot swing and get back into block quick enough to counter groups beating on him. I also feel like his swinging range could be better. Sometimes it seems like a counselor can be jogging right in front of me and I’ll swing and it won’t even hit them, although they’re right in front of my face. I think the grab range and the grab overall is fine but the swinging range could be improved. 

9. When counselors escape camp their items will spawn at campfires usually. You’ll have plenty of items to help you survive the night. 

10. I disagree, cars require a key realistically to start them. It’s already easy to fix an entire car. Not requiring a key would make it way too easy to do car escapes. 

11. Counselors combat stance dodging is very powerful. You can literally juke Jason out and hit him over and over like a ninja if you know how to use it. Also don’t ask why hold breath meter is down there. I went in a hiding spot for a couple min for a bathroom break and it stuck to my screen lol 

12. The game is fun as hell. I also agree the game can be frustrating, mainly due to the bugs and glitches. But it’s not gonna stop me from playing a great game I have tons of fun playing. 

I’m gonna look forward to everyone’s responses 

In terms of point 7.

Back in the early days of the game, Jason had godframes after stuns so he couldn't be so easily stunned over and over or chain stunned. So after a pocket knife or one off stun, etc he could do loads of damage up close for a brief time before counselors could hit or stun him again. Those were removed, making him more easily stunned, moreover chain stunned like after a pocket knife with timing and kinda removed most of his up close protection from mob attacks.

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On 6/15/2019 at 9:29 AM, tyrant666 said:

5) Jason Kill mechanic is a gigantic system to make ppl frustrated because some random guy has no clue and will therefor invalidate all effort you put into the kill. There should be a way to solo kill jason even if it is a lot harder. It is okay to fail on your own - it does not feel okay to fail because your jarvis doesn't speak english and cannot understand that all he has to press is E or is afk pooping. You might also want Jarvis to spawn with firecracker/pocketknife and a healing kit to give him the fighting toolkit. A hero needs equipment after all and by the time he spawns loot is scarce.

So even with as easy as it is to kill Jason, it's still not easy enough? Fuck that. If you still find it too difficult to kill Jason, you need to play something else.

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19 minutes ago, HaHaTrumpWon said:

So even with as easy as it is to kill Jason, it's still not easy enough? Fuck that. If you still find it too difficult to kill Jason, you need to play something else.

That wasn't me, it was his (Pappus) post from back in June 2017. My response was bolded below it.

I would never be ok with a solo kill...

🤣

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15 hours ago, gtdjlocker311 said:

Much of what he says (in this particular post) is true.

Just because the guy took things too far at some point doesn't mean everything he has to say is worthless.

An intelligent person can discern between the messenger and the message.

This probably isn’t directed at me but I’m going to respond anyway. This post isn’t a good argument because it’s actually about something other than what it seems...

On 6/15/2019 at 9:29 AM, tyrant666 said:

There should be a way to solo kill jason even if it is a lot harder.

This is what this post was really about. The rest is just to reinforce it.

The message isn’t the problem, the messenger being dishonest is. That said there were good ideas, like Tommy starting with a kit and well, actually that’s it. The mask thing could work but doesn’t feel right, of course it preventing Jason from knowing you’re in the shack feels off too, imo. It’s a mechanic so if they went with it adding a percentage sense immunity, it would be fine but not good.

Good would be having the mask let’s Jason see you with sense regardless of distance and escaping with it would let you collect it like a tape. Possibly if you collected it and bring it out successfully, you could then spend it to get a Jason buff in the next match or increase your likelihood of being Jason. 

Between Tyrant and Dontz the problems with it have all been pointed out, I’m not saying you’re advice (dig) was wrong because it wasn’t, it is a sign of intelligence to look past the messenger and really see the message, which I did. 

I really hope you don’t see this as me trying to start something or talk down to you, I’m not. I respect what you said, I’m just a smart ass who over thinks this stuff and because I spent time rooting out his second accounts from the forum I got used to reading what he really wanted. 

 

PS. @tyrant666, I was writing this when you posted, not criticizing your choice to bring this old post up but the reason I think it’s dishonest is above. Thought you might find it funny, 😉

 

 

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6 hours ago, gtdjlocker311 said:

I believe so, especially in politics (which we WON'T discuss here!).

No need to go any further. Politics is a sensitive topic for a lot of people.

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3 hours ago, Slasher_Clone said:

This probably isn’t directed at me but I’m going to respond anyway. This post isn’t a good argument because it’s actually about something other than what it seems...

This is what this post was really about. The rest is just to reinforce it.

The message isn’t the problem, the messenger being dishonest is. That said there were good ideas, like Tommy starting with a kit and well, actually that’s it. The mask thing could work but doesn’t feel right, of course it preventing Jason from knowing you’re in the shack feels off too, imo. It’s a mechanic so if they went with it adding a percentage sense immunity, it would be fine but not good.

Good would be having the mask let’s Jason see you with sense regardless of distance and escaping with it would let you collect it like a tape. Possibly if you collected it and bring it out successfully, you could then spend it to get a Jason buff in the next match or increase your likelihood of being Jason. 

Between Tyrant and Dontz the problems with it have all been pointed out, I’m not saying you’re advice (dig) was wrong because it wasn’t, it is a sign of intelligence to look past the messenger and really see the message, which I did. 

I really hope you don’t see this as me trying to start something or talk down to you, I’m not. I respect what you said, I’m just a smart ass who over thinks this stuff and because I spent time rooting out his second accounts from the forum I got used to reading what he really wanted. 

 

PS. @tyrant666, I was writing this when you posted, not criticizing your choice to bring this old post up but the reason I think it’s dishonest is above. Thought you might find it funny, 😉

 

 

I think you are way over-simplifying his original post.  There are many things on there that have nothing to do with solo-killing Jason.  Again, not liking the guy doesn't mean everything he says was wrong.

I wholeheartedly agree with a few of his points (particularly regarding perk-rolling), some of them I'd agree with some caveats (such as making the mask more powerful -- I agree with @tyrant666 that Jason should be able to put it back on), and some of them I wholeheartedly disagree with.

But what I cannot agree with is "That guy sucks, don't listen to anything he says." This is a lazy and unproductive attitude.  As a community (and ultimately, society) we ought to be able to take and evaluate criticisms from a wide variety of perspectives.

Sorry for getting up on my soapbox there.  I'll step down now!

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19 hours ago, tyrant666 said:

That wasn't me, it was his (Pappus) post from back in June 2017. My response was bolded below it.

I would never be ok with a solo kill...

🤣

I know man, I was talking about whoever wrote it.

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