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Can any balance please everyone? How would you fix it?

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Seems like to me at least speaking for the dev's as an outside observer that no matter what they try to do as far as balancing this game that there will always be unhappy people either unhappy Jason players or unhappy counselor players and this seems to be going to always be the case as it's near impossible to fix this game to everyone's satisfaction!

As far as myself if I were a dev I would offer 3 different online play modes for example if you prefer to play Jason yet want an easier game pick from 3 different game modes easy, normal, and hard for example you want to play Jason and your good and want a challenge you pick Hard Jason in this mode  you won't enter rage will get stunned 2x's longer etc or easy mode as Jason where there is no phone for cops, Jason can't be killed and he enters rage after 2 minutes of game play survivors who want a challenge will chose hard mode and for players who want an easier time as counselor would chose to play easy counselor mode where they start with a knife, med spray and can take more hits to die from Jason! This would be just like in offline mode where you have the option to play easy, normal and hard by having these options players will have a choice what type of public game they want to play so players who want to play a public match would have the option to chose what type of Jason they want to play against this way good Jason players can challenge themselves while if your a survivor and want to challenge yourself you can chose hard mode or do the opposite and chose easy mode if your new or just not good at playing. This will provide all the players a choice of the type of online game they want to play. The main problem I see with this is if everyone on both sides just want to play easy mode yet I don't think that would be the case as I feel more professional players would chose hard mode where newer or less skilled players would chose easy mode myself I would want the challenge on both sides so I would chose hard mode all the time.

This is the only solution I can think of that would please the majority cuz now everyone can decide the type of online game they want to play either a challenging one or an easy one. I personally would play hard mode on both sides as I want the challenge! What mode would you play most? Is this a good idea? or how would you go about it?

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Here’s what I believe would be the best fix. 

Once jason hits rage he can only be stunned once every 30 seconds. That gives Jason a 30 second window to finish the job while also giving skilled counslors a fighting chance. Also increase his strength once in rage. 1 slash = limping reguardless if you run thick skin or not. 

Yes, I know this would create more slashers during rage, but it gives you a reason to fear him.

Dont show Jason’s icon AT ALL once in rage, nor the vhs static. Also his music plays for everyone still alive on the map (as if he’s near) this would create tension & after awhile you will assume he’s not actually near you & drop ur guard, then BAM surprise! Another benefit of this is it encourages communication with other players on who has eyes on Jason.

other fix, if you are grabbed by Jason in rage, YOU ARE DONE. Meaning if you grab and another counselor hits you, you no longer drop that counselor. This would discourage groups beating on you.

One last thing, double the amount of xp for repairing objectives (car, boat & phone). This would encourage more players to repair things. 

I believe this would be the perfect balance at least imo. This fix allows us fighters to keep fighting while also gives you a reason to fear Jason once he’s in rage.

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Balancing is always a fine act, and while I like this change I do think there is always room for tweaking.

I suggest we play this way for a few weeks, and adjust to the changes like we always do. After that, let's revisit the topic and see what needs to be done.

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While it would have been impossible to please everyone, I believe that it could habe been done better. The rage thing has been so divisive. I believe they'd have been better served fixing mechanical flaws. So here are my suggestions.  (Most of these will be rehashed from my  and others previous suggestions)

1) Fix quick block. I can't overstate how badly this is missed by me and probably anybody who ever used it.

2) The grab needs attention. I think the range is fine. The width of the grab needs work.

3) A Hp increase. It's just too easy to remove his mask.

4) Invincibility frames coming out of an animation. The most notable being the pocket knife. This should extend to after a stun or a kill animation as well.

5) I believe they shot it down, but Jason needs to know where the Tommy house is. It makes no sense that he wouldn't,  and he should be allowed to contest the call. 

6) Meat shielding. Another thing that badly needs to comeback. It'll make grab kills viable in a crowd.

7) This one is more of a would be nice then a must have. Jason can rearm one trap per match

8: Since showing Jason the Tommy house was shot down before I'll add this one. The match starts with the power out throughout the map.

Now for the positives of yesterday's patch.

1) The weapon swing being able to hit multiple counselors. This was a fantastic addition. 

2) The flashing of the mask and Pamela laughing when Jason enters rage. That is cool as hell. I'd actually like to add to it. I'd love for it to happen every time a counselor is killed. 

Now for changes I'd like to see to yesterday's update. 

Complete stun immunity in rage is too much in my opinion. Especially if the above list is implemented. Therefore I'd suggest a less harsh version.

1) Make Jason immune to stuns while in an animation during rage. The being stunned while raging through a door has been a long standing irritation to alot of people. Therefore in my version Jason can no longer be stunned by anything for 3 seconds after raging through a door. By anything I'm including shotguns, firecrackers, and flareguns. The only exception to this would be a bear trap.

2) I'm fine with Jason being harder to stun in rage. Nearly complete immunity seems too far though. I suggest a 25% stun resistance bonus while in rage. This will counter anybody with epic sucker punch while giving people a fighting chance. 

3) Since I'm suggesting a nerf above I feel I should give Jason a buff to counter the nerf. When in rage Jason's stun times are cut by a third.

4) Adding back the stun from firecrackers and flareguns. 

5) Again since I'm suggesting a nerf how about a buff? Jason gets plus 10% weapon damage (including throwing knives) while in rage.

I doubt this list will be implemented but this is how I'd make Jason a force again while keeping it fair to counselors. 

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4 hours ago, Cheex said:

Balancing is always a fine act, and while I like this change I do think there is always room for tweaking.

I suggest we play this way for a few weeks, and adjust to the changes like we always do. After that, let's revisit the topic and see what needs to be done.

Well put I agree with you!

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4 hours ago, thrawn3054 said:

While it would have been impossible to please everyone, I believe that it could habe been done better. The rage thing has been so divisive. I believe they'd have been better served fixing mechanical flaws. So here are my suggestions.  (Most of these will be rehashed from my  and others previous suggestions)

1) Fix quick block. I can't overstate how badly this is missed by me and probably anybody who ever used it.

2) The grab needs attention. I think the range is fine. The width of the grab needs work.

3) A Hp increase. It's just too easy to remove his mask.

4) Invincibility frames coming out of an animation. The most notable being the pocket knife. This should extend to after a stun or a kill animation as well.

5) I believe they shot it down, but Jason needs to know where the Tommy house is. It makes no sense that he wouldn't,  and he should be allowed to contest the call. 

6) Meat shielding. Another thing that badly needs to comeback. It'll make grab kills viable in a crowd.

7) This one is more of a would be nice then a must have. Jason can rearm one trap per match

8: Since showing Jason the Tommy house was shot down before I'll add this one. The match starts with the power out throughout the map.

Now for the positives of yesterday's patch.

1) The weapon swing being able to hit multiple counselors. This was a fantastic addition. 

2) The flashing of the mask and Pamela laughing when Jason enters rage. That is cool as hell. I'd actually like to add to it. I'd love for it to happen every time a counselor is killed. 

Now for changes I'd like to see to yesterday's update. 

Complete stun immunity in rage is too much in my opinion. Especially if the above list is implemented. Therefore I'd suggest a less harsh version.

1) Make Jason immune to stuns while in an animation during rage. The being stunned while raging through a door has been a long standing irritation to alot of people. Therefore in my version Jason can no longer be stunned by anything for 3 seconds after raging through a door. By anything I'm including shotguns, firecrackers, and flareguns. The only exception to this would be a bear trap.

2) I'm fine with Jason being harder to stun in rage. Nearly complete immunity seems too far though. I suggest a 25% stun resistance bonus while in rage. This will counter anybody with epic sucker punch while giving people a fighting chance. 

3) Since I'm suggesting a nerf above I feel I should give Jason a buff to counter the nerf. When in rage Jason's stun times are cut by a third.

4) Adding back the stun from firecrackers and flareguns. 

5) Again since I'm suggesting a nerf how about a buff? Jason gets plus 10% weapon damage (including throwing knives) while in rage.

I doubt this list will be implemented but this is how I'd make Jason a force again while keeping it fair to counselors. 

Thanks for your reply and thought out response I can agree on some of what you suggested.

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4 hours ago, Cheex said:

Balancing is always a fine act, and while I like this change I do think there is always room for tweaking.

I suggest we play this way for a few weeks, and adjust to the changes like we always do. After that, let's revisit the topic and see what needs to be done.

Agreed well put.

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5 hours ago, pilospc said:

Seems like to me at least speaking for the dev's as an outside observer that no matter what they try to do as far as balancing this game that there will always be unhappy people either unhappy Jason players or unhappy counselor players and this seems to be going to always be the case as it's near impossible to fix this game to everyone's satisfaction!

It's impossible to make everybody happy. If we can get most people happy, that's good enough.

5 hours ago, BlkHawk said:

One last thing, double the amount of xp for repairing objectives (car, boat & phone). This would encourage more players to repair things.

I disagree with adjusting the EXP for fixing objectives. People already have the option to do this. Raising the values won't necessarily encourage people to do what they can already do.

5 hours ago, Cheex said:

Balancing is always a fine act, and while I like this change I do think there is always room for tweaking.

I suggest we play this way for a few weeks, and adjust to the changes like we always do. After that, let's revisit the topic and see what needs to be done.

This is quality advice right here.

4 hours ago, thrawn3054 said:

While it would have been impossible to please everyone, I believe that it could habe been done better. The rage thing has been so divisive. I believe they'd have been better served fixing mechanical flaws. So here are my suggestions.  (Most of these will be rehashed from my  and others previous suggestions)

1) Fix quick block. I can't overstate how badly this is missed by me and probably anybody who ever used it.

2) The grab needs attention. I think the range is fine. The width of the grab needs work.

3) A Hp increase. It's just too easy to remove his mask.

4) Invincibility frames coming out of an animation. The most notable being the pocket knife. This should extend to after a stun or a kill animation as well.

5) I believe they shot it down, but Jason needs to know where the Tommy house is. It makes no sense that he wouldn't,  and he should be allowed to contest the call. 

6) Meat shielding. Another thing that badly needs to comeback. It'll make grab kills viable in a crowd.

7) This one is more of a would be nice then a must have. Jason can rearm one trap per match

8: Since showing Jason the Tommy house was shot down before I'll add this one. The match starts with the power out throughout the map.

Now for the positives of yesterday's patch.

1) The weapon swing being able to hit multiple counselors. This was a fantastic addition. 

2) The flashing of the mask and Pamela laughing when Jason enters rage. That is cool as hell. I'd actually like to add to it. I'd love for it to happen every time a counselor is killed. 

Now for changes I'd like to see to yesterday's update. 

Complete stun immunity in rage is too much in my opinion. Especially if the above list is implemented. Therefore I'd suggest a less harsh version.

1) Make Jason immune to stuns while in an animation during rage. The being stunned while raging through a door has been a long standing irritation to alot of people. Therefore in my version Jason can no longer be stunned by anything for 3 seconds after raging through a door. By anything I'm including shotguns, firecrackers, and flareguns. The only exception to this would be a bear trap.

2) I'm fine with Jason being harder to stun in rage. Nearly complete immunity seems too far though. I suggest a 25% stun resistance bonus while in rage. This will counter anybody with epic sucker punch while giving people a fighting chance. 

3) Since I'm suggesting a nerf above I feel I should give Jason a buff to counter the nerf. When in rage Jason's stun times are cut by a third.

4) Adding back the stun from firecrackers and flareguns. 

5) Again since I'm suggesting a nerf how about a buff? Jason gets plus 10% weapon damage (including throwing knives) while in rage.

I doubt this list will be implemented but this is how I'd make Jason a force again while keeping it fair to counselors. 

You saved me the trouble of compiling all this information. Thanks.

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49 minutes ago, NightmareFuel said:

How often are patches made?

Once every three months or so.

I'm going to quote what I wrote in another thread

Quote

While I generally agree Jason needs to be buffed, they should make it a temporary effect where you can use your rage (by pressing a button, which will deplete over a period of time, you can't stop the effect when it's in use so the rage meter needs to get empty to stop the effect) to become temporary invulnerable. That way you can deal with Jason bullies and Jason killers while sacrificing rage (which you need to build up again to break down doors by walking through them) and other people (who didn't bully Jason and actually did the objectives) have the chance to escape. While in this invulnerable state you can't use any powers like stalk, morph, shift and sense.

 

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After testing the patch in many games since its debut. 

I'm disheartened, the game has changed for the worst. Now you are basically FORCED to do objectives because the other alternatives are crippled. 

Jason is invulnerable and this ruins the game for anybody who likes to fight. 

I believe that a lot of the people who appreciate this patch have never really experienced this game in a high competitive fighting setting, so they can't really understand the thrilling of an intense fight against a competent Jason. 

This kind of stimulus of high intensity competitive game is unmatched in any other element of the game. 

If you had tried to battle and survive the night fighting back against a great Jason you know the feeling. Most comments I read here don't really know this element of the game because they never spent the time to master the timing to be able to do so. 

A normal escape match gives you a thrill of let's say 6/10, staying within an inch of Jason grabs for 3 minutes as you fight back and every door is down and your stamina is low is a 10/10. 

I vulnerable Jason removed this, it destroyed something that you should have tried, it was the best feeling of the game. 

Now this is gone, you can still survive the night easily with marathon and restful but it's not thr same. Escaping for three minutes doesn't have the same feeling. 

The game feels dull. 

It is such a shame thst the deva thought that a simple solution like invulnerability would have balanced the game. 

It is a cheap ploy but it doesn't really work ad you can still tool around with Jason by running, it is simply less interesting. 

It is obviously a mistake to punish sone the hard core elements of the fan base. 

I've seen so many good elements in the previous posts, I'd be thrilled to survive the night by fighting against some of the uber jasons you mentioned previously. These people should be hired to represent us who like the competitive side of f13. 

I'm grateful to you folks who took the time to suggest these great changes. 

I'm fairly confident this pstch won't last because after the initial excitement of the people who ti is patch caters, most of them will leave once again. 

All in all there's hope, I'll test the game during the whole weekend and then decide if I want to play it again. 

Good job folks, impressive suggestions :) 

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You can't please everyone.

 

Because most people want a game of Cat vs Mice.  Jason being the cat.. counselors being the mic.  With more of a focus on avoiding and escaping Jason.

While others what the mice to be able to fight the cat.. instead of avoiding the cat.

 

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10 hours ago, pilospc said:

Thanks for your reply and thought out response I can agree on some of what you suggested.

Np.

9 hours ago, Fair Play said:

You saved me the trouble of compiling all this information. Thanks.

You're welcome. I tried to compile a list of all the best ideas I remember seeing along a few (what I think to be at least) original ideas of my own.

28 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

You can't please everyone.

 

Because most people want a game of Cat vs Mice.  Jason being the cat.. counselors being the mic.  With more of a focus on avoiding and escaping Jason.

While others what the mice to be able to fight the cat.. instead of avoiding the cat.

 

Agreed. You'll never please everybody. I think the rage thing was bad as it doesn't help in the early to mid game. That's what my list hoped to fix.

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First off, thanks for trying to create a nice discussion. Balancing will never please everyone. People simply need more tact in voicing their opinions and the responders need to be less combative and hostile towards another person's opinions. 

In my opinion, Jason is still weak furing the first half of the match. I 5hink most of it stems from it being 7v1 and RNG working against him. That being said, I base the following on that analysis. My ideas for improving balance:

1) firecrackers and flareguns should still stun Jason after Rage. I like that Jason isn't open to cheap hits while Raging through walls. I dont like how stamina cannot be gained if caught hopping between cabins. 

2) set Block out of combat stance. This gives Jason more of a chance at combat early on in the game., especially when fighting groups. With that change you may not need an unstunable Jason. 

3) Give Jason a perk or temporary boost similar to Blood Lust in DbD. If Jason has been chasing a singular counselor for a minute, he should receive a speed boost to help close the gap. Picture Jason walking with a faster pace behind you. Builds the tension up more and helps to deal with the Vanessas that want to cabin hop early on.

4) Why does Jason seing once and leave himself open? Why not let him have a double slash, a dash attack, or hold a button and 360° swing? 

If Jason is improved early on or in other ways, then there isn't a need for an unstanable Jason. I think it helps a lot of the newer Jasons and I like that it makes Jason harder to kill. However, it isnt preventing Jason kill parties because people will play how they want to play. It encourages team play, but you can't make people play how you want or intend them to. Now it punishes other players for trying but having spawns where no objectives spawn. So other players can grab the items and run across the map with them not fixing anything. 

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All the devs had to do to balance the game was to first bring back body shielding and then make his swing stronger in rage mode. This would have taken care of the multiple attacker scenario for the most part. They could try it in the beginning but once he starts chopping limbs off trust me, the others would start to flee. Making Jason too strong in rage simply takes the fun and challenge out of the game. It really feels like your playing it now on easy mode when your Jason and it just shouldn't feel that way.

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I don’t think balance is correct in a asymmetrical game.

you have a powerful killer that can destroy lobbies of newbs and uncoordinated groups.

But you place that killer in a half decent group that sticks together and understands teamwork, than that killer is a punching bag. 

I come from the mind set that the killers need regular buffs to counteract the meta. Especially in a game like Friday where the selection process alone means people will put more hours in playing the Counselors, and less practice as the killer.

Meaning it doesn’t take long for the overall player base to become extremely good at Counsellors.

I hope Gun keeps the Jason buffs coming. I’m open to a few changes. I like the idea that maybe Tommy can still stun rage Jason, but overall I hope they keep buffing him every couple months.

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5 hours ago, thrawn3054 said:

Np.

You're welcome. I tried to compile a list of all the best ideas I remember seeing along a few (what I think to be at least) original ideas of my own.

Agreed. You'll never please everybody. I think the rage thing was bad as it doesn't help in the early to mid game. That's what my list hoped to fix.

Anything to make the jobs of the developers easier is a plus.

5 hours ago, TheHansonGoons said:

People simply need more tact in voicing their opinions and the responders need to be less combative and hostile towards another person's opinions.

That's all any of us can ask for. People on both sides need to be a bit more rational with their posts. A lot of the negativity can be avoided with choosing one's words wisely.

1 hour ago, dandop1984 said:

I don’t think balance is correct in a asymmetrical game.

you have a powerful killer that can destroy lobbies of newbs and uncoordinated groups.

But you place that killer in a half decent group that sticks together and understands teamwork, than that killer is a punching bag. 

I come from the mind set that the killers need regular buffs to counteract the meta. Especially in a game like Friday where the selection process alone means people will put more hours in playing the Counselors, and less practice as the killer.

Meaning it doesn’t take long for the overall player base to become extremely good at Counsellors.

I hope Gun keeps the Jason buffs coming. I’m open to a few changes. I like the idea that maybe Tommy can still stun rage Jason, but overall I hope they keep buffing him every couple months.

That would be a good approach. Adaptation keeps a game interesting.

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21 hours ago, Cheex said:

Balancing is always a fine act, and while I like this change I do think there is always room for tweaking.

I suggest we play this way for a few weeks, and adjust to the changes like we always do. After that, let's revisit the topic and see what needs to be done.

Totally agree with this. Best response I have read on the forums since the update. 

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I think the biggest problem is there was so many good suggestions here for months but they just took the lazy way and gave full stun immunity because it was a lot easier the implementing several small buffs that have been listed, it seems like they don’t really care why any of the players think. 

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@Urmomsnewman, the thing about all the good suggestions is that all of them couldn't be implemented. I'd like to believe that they at least considered the ideas, even if they didn't use them. Only the developers could verify that, if they felt it worth their time to do so. There's also the chance that some of the ideas not used may come into play later, if the lawsuit permits it. None of us know the whole story behind the patch.

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Balance is impossible in an asymmetrical game. Either your one player's character is powerful enough to overcome seven to one odds or he is underpowered and is overwhelmed by the numbers game. I personally haven't played the new patch due to issues at home extremely limiting my playtime right now. However after checking out a few streams I think there is a good back and forth here. The counselors must escape or kill Jason in the first ten minutes when they have the advantage. If they don't that advantage shifts to Jason. So the matches now promote more cooperative play and two aspects of the counselors game the fighting and the juking now go hand in hand instead of just picking one playstyle and sticking with it. The counselors and Jason now share time being op it's not perfect but it is a good try to balance seven against one gameplay. 

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True all could not have be implemented, but how often did you see “ not be able to stun Jason at all” asked for? I seen several other things said over and over that it just seemed like they ignored. But again we know there is zero communication from them on a good day

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On 2/1/2019 at 8:57 AM, TheHansonGoons said:

First off, thanks for trying to create a nice discussion. Balancing will never please everyone. People simply need more tact in voicing their opinions and the responders need to be less combative and hostile towards another person's opinions. 

In my opinion, Jason is still weak furing the first half of the match. I 5hink most of it stems from it being 7v1 and RNG working against him. That being said, I base the following on that analysis. My ideas for improving balance:

1) firecrackers and flareguns should still stun Jason after Rage. I like that Jason isn't open to cheap hits while Raging through walls. I dont like how stamina cannot be gained if caught hopping between cabins. 

2) set Block out of combat stance. This gives Jason more of a chance at combat early on in the game., especially when fighting groups. With that change you may not need an unstunable Jason. 

3) Give Jason a perk or temporary boost similar to Blood Lust in DbD. If Jason has been chasing a singular counselor for a minute, he should receive a speed boost to help close the gap. Picture Jason walking with a faster pace behind you. Builds the tension up more and helps to deal with the Vanessas that want to cabin hop early on.

4) Why does Jason seing once and leave himself open? Why not let him have a double slash, a dash attack, or hold a button and 360° swing? 

If Jason is improved early on or in other ways, then there isn't a need for an unstanable Jason. I think it helps a lot of the newer Jasons and I like that it makes Jason harder to kill. However, it isnt preventing Jason kill parties because people will play how they want to play. It encourages team play, but you can't make people play how you want or intend them to. Now it punishes other players for trying but having spawns where no objectives spawn. So other players can grab the items and run across the map with them not fixing anything. 

Great ideas thanks for your feedback and kind words!

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On 2/2/2019 at 8:24 AM, Urmomsnewman said:

True all could not have be implemented, but how often did you see “ not be able to stun Jason at all” asked for? I seen several other things said over and over that it just seemed like they ignored. But again we know there is zero communication from them on a good day

Thanks

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