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Stunning jason is bullshit

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I've had to remove a few posts here that were rather uncivil. Let's keep the thread on track and not express ourselves too intensely.

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On 9/27/2018 at 9:22 AM, Tommy86 said:

Ideally, there would be no stun at all. The whole idea of a stun is fundamentally flawed, and while people are constantly angered by it, I wager that majority never even question why. What is it about the stun that negatively impacts gameplay?

It’s simple really. Loss of character control, just the same as when your counselor loses control due to a stumble. It is a terrible mechanic in both cases and simply a band aid for a fundamentally poor game design.

You are wrong there. A gigantic number of games have stun mechanics. If every game were to adhere to your strict doctrine of "absolutely no loss of character control no matter what" then it would ruin a lot of games. I'm playing Monster Hunter as of late and your character getting stunned offers you a reason to avoid getting hit. If you get stunned by failing to avoid the monster's attacks, you get punished. And it works in that game. Imagine if in Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat, your character would never lose control. You'd never have those "mini stun" moments when you take a punch without blocking, it would be as if both characters are implacable terminators that just punch each other with no reaction to the hit until one player loses all their HP before the opponent does. Your strict doctrine is flawed.

Stuns in games work when done well. The stuns in this game just haven't been implemented well. The primary problem is that they are far too frequent. If the weapon stats were tweaked to significantly lower their stun chance, it would fix the problem. It would require high quality perks to get a good chance of stunning Jason. And in that case, using a perk slot for stuns would remove a perk slot that people use for other perks that they think are required to stand a chance. Maybe people would stop using Medic as much so they can stun Jason, or whatever the case.

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8 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

Stuns in games work when done well. The stuns in this game just haven't been implemented well. The primary problem is that they are far too frequent. If the weapon stats were tweaked to significantly lower their stun chance, it would fix the problem. It would require high quality perks to get a good chance of stunning Jason. And in that case, using a perk slot for stuns would remove a perk slot that people use for other perks that they think are required to stand a chance. Maybe people would stop using Medic as much so they can stun Jason, or whatever the case.

Some changes need to be made to make certain perks relevant again.

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1 hour ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

You are wrong there. A gigantic number of games have stun mechanics. If every game were to adhere to your strict doctrine of "absolutely no loss of character control no matter what" then it would ruin a lot of games. I'm playing Monster Hunter as of late and your character getting stunned offers you a reason to avoid getting hit. If you get stunned by failing to avoid the monster's attacks, you get punished. And it works in that game. Imagine if in Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat, your character would never lose control. You'd never have those "mini stun" moments when you take a punch without blocking, it would be as if both characters are implacable terminators that just punch each other with no reaction to the hit until one player loses all their HP before the opponent does. Your strict doctrine is flawed.

It is not a matter of right and wrong, but a matter of opinion. Yes there is an abundance of games that use stun mechanics but that doesn't automatically make it a good mechanic. Quite the contrary in my opinion, it is detrimental to overall gameplay especially when it becomes a constant occurrence.

Fighting games are the wrong comparison in this context, for many reasons but one of them being that your opponent must actively work to keep you from countering eg. sustaining a combo, with the exception of specials but at least there is something visually interesting to hold your attention in that case. It is completely different from simply sustaining a period of total inactivity like in F13, and watching the game go on without you. In counselor's case, it is a matter of briefly - but completely - having your controls taken away from you at any random point. I would compare it to your controller randomly disconnecting for a second now and then. It isn't good design from any perspective.

Punishment could come in other forms in F13, such as a simple idea I already mentioned which is knockback for Jason + temporary speed boost for counselor so they have opportunity to create distance. Perhaps certain weapons such as shotgun would be eligible for knockdown, which would be fine as long as those weapons were kept to a minimum. As it stands, it is absolutely no fun for any beginner to the game to be constantly stunned / have their controls constantly taken away, and this is why there has always been so much aversion to it. It takes a considerable amount of practice and good technique to consistently avoid stuns, and while I always encourage learning, I can understand why it is a source of frustration.

As a compromise, it may have been more acceptable if the stuns were significantly shorter in the game but it is something that will never be changed. 

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8 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

It is not a matter of right and wrong, but a matter of opinion. Yes there is an abundance of games that use stun mechanics but that doesn't automatically make it a good mechanic. Quite the contrary in my opinion, it is detrimental to overall gameplay especially when it becomes a constant occurrence.

 As it stands, it is absolutely no fun for any beginner to the game to be constantly stunned / have their controls constantly taken away, and this is why there has always been so much aversion to it.

Yeah, my change would address that by reducing the stun frequency to a much, much rarer occurrence, but it should still happen. Jason needs to be strong, yes, but not to the point where we get that mess at launch where a whole host of bugs made Jason an unstoppable bulldozer that was utterly unfazed by anything in his path. That is simultaneously not reflective of the movies and bad gameplay design. He gets stunned in the movies, and stun mechanics in games are just fine when they are implemented well. And the fighting game comparison is still valid because you fight Jason, just in a 3D environment rather than 2D.

Jason should not be utterly implacable with no reaction to any external force, or totally invulnerable in every regard. Just reduce stuns to a fraction of their frequency and that will be plenty.

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24 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

And the fighting game comparison is still valid because you fight Jason, just in a 3D environment rather than 2D.

In a fighting game, all you do is fight. It is fast-paced, constant action which makes it more acceptable to incur some extended period of inactivity that your opponent literally needs to sustain themselves. If the combo is dropped, the inactivity ends. To me it is not a valid comparison, and although I do treat F13 like a fighting game and analyse its combat just the same, I don't consider the concept of stuns something that's comparable between the two. Again, with the exception of specials, they simply don't operate the same. 

You will notice I said earlier that I believe the game has a fundamentally flawed design, so simply changing how stuns operate would not be enough to fix its issues. Other things would certainly need to be changed in tandem for a true improvement in gameplay, with the changes all working together, but that is a huge discussion right there.

 

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51 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

You will notice I said earlier that I believe the game has a fundamentally flawed design, so simply changing how stuns operate would not be enough to fix its issues. Other things would certainly need to be changed in tandem for a true improvement in gameplay, with the changes all working together, but that is a huge discussion right there.

 

No doubt the game is flawed, but I'm thinking within the boundaries of what the new devs will be legally allowed to do. Sure extra features would be nice but until the lawsuit is settled, the best way to handle stuns is to largely reduce them. After the new devs get the OK to make new stuff then we can figure out how to add new stuff but until then we have to work with what  the game already has.

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46 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

No doubt the game is flawed, but I'm thinking within the boundaries of what the new devs will be legally allowed to do. Sure extra features would be nice but until the lawsuit is settled, the best way to handle stuns is to largely reduce them. After the new devs get the OK to make new stuff then we can figure out how to add new stuff but until then we have to work with what  the game already has.

I personally doubt we will see even a single change in gameplay mechanics, with the exception of removing any bugs associated with them. I don’t expect anything more from Black Tower, certainly not new content, as I believe they were only brought on to maintain what is already there due to prior experience with the game.

I agree we must work with what we have but that simply comes down to players improving their gameplay, and using better strategy / technique to minimise issues such as stuns. I enjoy discussions like these but I don’t see anything coming from them whatsoever. The game is done, I don’t see any further changes happening. Updates are going to be the bare minimum from here on.

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39 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

I personally doubt we will see even a single change in gameplay mechanics, with the exception of removing any bugs associated with them. I don’t expect anything more from Dark Tower, certainly not new content, as I believe they were only brought on to maintain what is already there due to prior experience with the game.

I agree we must work with what we have but that simply comes down to players improving their gameplay, and using better strategy / technique to minimise issues such as stuns. I enjoy discussions like these but I don’t see anything coming from them whatsoever. The game is done, I don’t see any further changes happening. Updates are going to be the bare minimum from here on.

Blocking is the one thing that stops the stun, and wears out the counselors weapon as an added bonus. I don't know why more people don't do it as Jason, they get caught up in the twirling dance and forget all about it I guess. I block pretty often, but I do go with the twirl and short sprint in my first encounter to judge if the counselor is aggressive or more methodical. I still say they should shorten stuns to a maximum of one second for Jason and if he hits a counselor it should make them stumble at least. Then when Jason hits rage he should have a 50% stun resist, and should be immune to stun when smashing in doors in rage. Just my opinion, right now we have block and a myriad of moves afterwards to combat the stun.

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19 hours ago, Tommy86 said:

I personally doubt we will see even a single change in gameplay mechanics, with the exception of removing any bugs associated with them. I don’t expect anything more from Black Tower, certainly not new content, as I believe they were only brought on to maintain what is already there due to prior experience with the game.

I agree we must work with what we have but that simply comes down to players improving their gameplay, and using better strategy / technique to minimise issues such as stuns. I enjoy discussions like these but I don’t see anything coming from them whatsoever. The game is done, I don’t see any further changes happening. Updates are going to be the bare minimum from here on.

Until Gun makes any statement that they are retracting their "no new content" stance, this is the healthiest mindset.  Even in a game that is unchanging, we as players can change, ether optimizing or finding new tactics or tech that wasn't considered before.

18 hours ago, Redrum138 said:

Blocking is the one thing that stops the stun, and wears out the counselors weapon as an added bonus. I don't know why more people don't do it as Jason, they get caught up in the twirling dance and forget all about it I guess. I block pretty often, but I do go with the twirl and short sprint in my first encounter to judge if the counselor is aggressive or more methodical. I still say they should shorten stuns to a maximum of one second for Jason and if he hits a counselor it should make them stumble at least. Then when Jason hits rage he should have a 50% stun resist, and should be immune to stun when smashing in doors in rage. Just my opinion, right now we have block and a myriad of moves afterwards to combat the stun.

Well, most players of this game, Jason or Counselor, don't use combat stance at all, which would be the reason why they don't use it.  A while back, this one kid though he could get away with the shit he does on average Jason on me.  I was very entertained by he reactions, lol  "WTF, Jason can now Block?!!?"  Pure gold. :lol:

The often complain for blocking is it's execution "start-up", due to both being 2-steps (CS then Block) and how much slower it became getting to since the engine update.  Block must be now in anticipated to a counselor's swing, not on reaction, which does limit its uses and its often better to evade the hit instead (no stamina or cancel-tech).  Not to say that it isn't useful though, as it can act as a deterrent against mobs to break them up, waste weapons and build rage from foolish players, or used around door corners against a counselor thinking they are smart, lol. 

PS: I know you know all this, I'm just laying it out for others needing the info. ;)

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1 hour ago, GeneiJin said:

Until Gun makes any statement that they are retracting their "no new content" stance, this is the healthiest mindset.  Even in a game that is unchanging, we as players can change, ether optimizing or finding new tactics or tech that wasn't considered before.

Well, most players of this game, Jason or Counselor, don't use combat stance at all, which would be the reason why they don't use it.  A while back, this one kid though he could get away with the shit he does on average Jason on me.  I was very entertained by he reactions, lol  "WTF, Jason can now Block?!!?"  Pure gold. :lol:

The often complain for blocking is it's execution "start-up", due to both being 2-steps (CS then Block) and how much slower it became getting to since the engine update.  Block must be now in anticipated to a counselor's swing, not on reaction, which does limit its uses and its often better to evade the hit instead (no stamina or cancel-tech).  Not to say that is isn't useful though, as it can act as a deterrent against mobs to break them up, waste weapons and build rage from foolish players, or used around door corners against a counselor thinking they are smart, lol. 

PS: I know you know all this, I'm just laying it out for others needing the info. ;)

Man, I was playing QP last night at like 3 am here. (Just couldn't sleep, so was in a killing mood. Lol) Got J3 in a lobby of 4 Vanessas, 2 Buggzys and a Jenny (♡) So, I knew what they were thinking. Got on em Quick, before they could gather and killed both Buggz and a Vanessa pretty early. The other three scattered, and I caught a Vanessa solo. Quick toggle, then block. "Wait... Wtf was that?" He says. "You cheating bro?" Luckily I unplug my mic when I'm Jason, couldn't help but laugh at that! His moves were so telegraphed I felt a slight tinge of sympathy momentarily, so I plugged in my mic as I let him hit me. Then I proceeded to block his next two hits, he was not happy! "Why you gotta cheat bro?" Lmao, so I said. "Are you referring to the game mechanism called blocking? Oh, it's quite legal. Wait, check this out." I block again, then knife, then slash/block before his next sloppy attack. He is now limping "WTF was that?" He screamed! I'm in a much better mood by now, can't stop laughing. "Man, if you don't know how to block I really don't want to try to explain that to you." So, I told him how to block as a counselor. Then explained spacing and the difference in hitting with a bat as opposed to a wrench. Then told him blocking works the same as Jason, and if he wants to live past the five minute mark he needs to learn these things for solo combat. "You can be sloppy and telegraph your moves in a mob and get away with it, but one on one..." He died shortly thereafter. It's amazing that simple game mechanics like BLOCKING can go unknown by players who are 150.

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28 minutes ago, Redrum138 said:

Man, I was playing QP last night at like 3 am here. (Just couldn't sleep, so was in a killing mood. Lol).......

Nice Bro! lol.  I too don't usually talk as Jason, but since getting a new headset I've recently started to give dickish commentary to counselors while Jason.  If they try to ambush me around corners, I'd say, "really bro, you think that would work?" or grab a Vanessa "oh, you don't have a PK? That sucks." and proceed to kill them, lol.

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7 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

Nice Bro! lol.  I too don't usually talk as Jason, but since getting a new headset I've recently started to give dickish commentary to counselors while Jason.  If they try to ambush me around corners, I'd say, "really bro, you think that would work?" or grab a Vanessa "oh, you don't have a PK? That sucks." and proceed to kill them, lol.

Haha! Nice! Yeah, I actually felt kinda bad for this guy. Man, he was really trying to drop me ya know? But, when he screamed "WTF was that?!?" He just stood there. Or well, hunched over grabbing his wounded arm and pride. So I coached him for a bit, then backed away and asked if he was ready. "Hang on" He sprayed, then rushed straight in for another block/grab/kill... Unfortunately, the meta alot of players utilize depends upon group beat downs. So they really never go beyond the basics, thus never actually evolving.

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1 minute ago, Redrum138 said:

. Unfortunately, the meta alot of players utilize depends upon group beat downs. So they really never go beyond the basics, thus never actually evolving.

Many player came into this game with other friends, so they have became reliant of each other.  Because this is actually my first online multiplayer game (played single player game as a kid and since only been playing fighting games), I came into this game with no friends and had to fend for myself in QP.  Because I'm quite good and a chill easy-going person, I've since made many friends and been invited to many different parties of players.

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7 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

Many player came into this game with other friends, so they have became reliant of each other.  Because this is actually my first online multiplayer game (played single player game as a kid and since only been playing fighting games), I came into this game with no friends and had to fend for myself in QP.  Because I'm quite good and a chill easy-going person, I've since made many friends and been invited to many different parties of players.

Me too, first online multiplayer game. I played QP for months before I got a few friends from this forum. I couldn't say how many now, but back when team killing was in on QP I learned how to fight. Plus Tommy86 really helped me understand things much more, I could pull off strike cancel and counters but never consistently until he helped me understand the mechanics of it. Everything I've learned I learned the hard way, solo. Then he would explain why it happened, and I would use that. Then I started playing private against people who were really good, kinda took bits of their game to add to mine. Kiting, spacing, driving and such.

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On 9/26/2018 at 8:58 PM, Tommy86 said:

 I basically no longer post here. @GeneiJin is one of the last intelligent players on here spreading knowledge, 

You still post here tho..   :D

And MANY people here know this game inside and out, including myself.  Just sayin'     

Also, the attitude of being the most knowledgeable people here.  And everyone else is a bunch of scrubs that need to be told how to play just becomes redundant and narcissistic.  

Sure some people want advice..  And thats cool when you offer it.    But beyond that, well....its just  comes off annoying.

 

On 9/26/2018 at 8:58 PM, Tommy86 said:

Such a pity what the forum has devolved to where people would rather complain incessantly than simply learn the game. 

People complain in order to better of fix the current state of the game.  People who love a specific games, will always complain and argue about how they think it should be.      

On 9/26/2018 at 8:58 PM, Tommy86 said:

. Especially since there will be no more balance updates, no more gameplay changes so these topics are all for nought. 

Did anyone from Gun say no more balance updates or game play changes?   Because i don't remember seeing that.

 

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4 hours ago, HuDawg said:

You still post here tho..   :D

And MANY people here know this game inside and out, including myself.  Just sayin'     

Also, the attitude of being the most knowledgeable people here.  And everyone else is a bunch of scrubs that need to be told how to play just becomes redundant and narcissistic.  

Sure some people want advice..  And thats cool when you offer it.    But beyond that, well....its just  comes off annoying.

Considering I used to post here on a daily (and constant) basis, then yeah I have pretty much stopped. The narcissistic attitude you interpret from mine and other likeminded people's posts only shows your own bias. It is nothing to do with ego, but simply that the majority in any game are casuals. It is the minority that put in the work to learn a game on a deeper level, and work to come up with the most effective solutions to it. And though you may not want to admit it, the advice that has come from my own playtime and testing has been proven time and time again, because it is backed up by hard facts. The only reason you call it annoying is because it either flies over your head, or you are unwilling to listen in the first place.

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41 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

The only reason you call it annoying is because it either flies over your head, or you are unwilling to listen in the first place.

Listen to what exactly?      Im still waiting for you to make good on not posting here anymore.

If you want me take you seriously you need to start keeping your promises

😘

 

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On 9/29/2018 at 3:21 AM, Tommy86 said:

I personally doubt we will see even a single change in gameplay mechanics, with the exception of removing any bugs associated with them. I don’t expect anything more from Black Tower, certainly not new content, as I believe they were only brought on to maintain what is already there due to prior experience with the game.

I agree we must work with what we have but that simply comes down to players improving their gameplay, and using better strategy / technique to minimise issues such as stuns. I enjoy discussions like these but I don’t see anything coming from them whatsoever. The game is done, I don’t see any further changes happening. Updates are going to be the bare minimum from here on.

Gameplay mechanic wise we will see little to none unless Gun retracts there statement of “no new content” due to the lawsuit outcome but I HIGHLY doubt that. We will see sporadic bug fixes but what we have now I’m pretty sure is the end result of the game. Not most people’s wishes but it is what we got unless Gun proves me wrong, again...highly doubt it.

I also reply and post on my own personal gameplay experience and look at the facts of the game. I go into a deeper level to learn about the gameplay, even though I’m pretty competent on what I know so far. The most helpful people on the forums have for sure been you, @VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow, @Ahab, and @GeneiJin.

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10 hours ago, HuDawg said:

People complain in order to better of fix the current state of the game.  People who love a specific games, will always complain and argue about how they think it should be.

Complaining can be a double-edged sword. it can serve as a means of making a game better, just as it can make a game worse. It all depends on how one's complaints are worded and received.

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6 hours ago, HuDawg said:

Listen to what exactly?      Im still waiting for you to make good on not posting here anymore.

If you want me take you seriously you need to start keeping your promises

😘

 

You must have serious comprehension issues. I never promised not to post, simply that I rarely post here now because I can no longer be bothered to teach or argue with stubborn people like you. I don’t place any value on your opinion whatsoever so it is irrelevant whether you take me seriously or not.

I did however promise to post a couple more guides for the few that are interested, so I’ll be sticking around a little longer. If you have a problem with that - hit the ignore button. 

4 hours ago, JennyMyers1984 said:

I also reply and post on my own personal gameplay experience and look at the facts of the game. I go into a deeper level to learn about the gameplay, even though I’m pretty competent on what I know so far. The most helpful people on the forums have for sure been you, @VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow, @Ahab, and @GeneiJin.

Thanks, and I agree you have a solid  understanding of the game based on the posts I’ve read of yours. I think you are correct that what we have now is the end result of the game, which is why I think the complaints are meaningless and why I encourage those still playing to just make the best of it. There is always more to learn and improve upon to increase enjoyment.

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1 hour ago, Tommy86 said:

You must have serious comprehension issues. I never promised not to post, simply that I rarely post here now because I can no longer be bothered to teach or argue with stubborn people like you. I don’t place any value on your opinion whatsoever so it is irrelevant whether you take me seriously or not.

I did however promise to post a couple more guides for the few that are interested, so I’ll be sticking around a little longer. If you have a problem with that - hit the ignore button. 

Thanks, and I agree you have a solid  understanding of the game based on the posts I’ve read of yours. I think you are correct that what we have now is the end result of the game, which is why I think the complaints are meaningless and why I encourage those still playing to just make the best of it. There is always more to learn and improve upon to increase enjoyment.

You know, whatever nonsense people say about you doesn't matter to people like me. You have helped me ALOT in the time I've been here. Was Just talking to @GeneiJin about that the other night. When I first started on here I could do things, but not consistently. It was you who helped me the most understand how I was able to do these things so I could get better, and you added to my knowledge as well. I appreciate the help you've given and always check out your posts. Even though now it seems like constant grief from others, I'm glad to see you still come on now and then. I want you to know that some of us do appreciate your knowledge of this game, and the videos and how to guides. As for the OP, blocking or general evading the counselors weapon is the only way to deal with the stun that I know of. With Jason's block motion being slower since the engine upgrade, you have to time it differently. Anticipation, I normally spin out of the way in the first encounter to judge if they have swift attacker. And to see their skill level, and agression. Then I can better anticipate their next move.

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@JennyMyers1984 Thanks... There used to a lot more helpful people on these forums... Victims of a curse perhaps?
    I have not been around much recently, but I am almost done with cottage country until next spring. 

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