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A Question About Balance

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Glad to see that this topic has been "lively" since I last posted lol.     Ironically the reason why the game is at its current state is because it was designed as a "party game" for "casual".  Devs attempted to make it fun to play both Jason and Counselor, the head developer even said it balanced it to allow at least 2 people to survive.  In a game with average skilled counselors against a average skilled Jason, it is Jason favored.  The dilemma arises that when counselor play improves (it did), then the balances starts to shift in their favor.  I don't have any qualms with Jason to keep up at higher levels, but then Jason will become too strong at lower levels of play, which is the majority of this game's playerbase.  I'm sure, when this games was actively in development and supported, that the concern was that it would be too hard to survivor for that playerbase.  Hell, I still run into 150 players that still think it's too hard. 

We are ether going to fall into 2 camps and likely not agree with each other, having combat a viable option and having it not.  Combating Jason has always been a intended part of this game.  Heck, they game Combat Stance to BOTH Jason and Counselors.  Jason does still have a advantage when in direct combat with a counselor, given authority with better startup time for swings and the grab.  But if the skill gap is big then of course the Jason will be on his back often, much like how Justin Wong can beat most players using Dan in Street fighter.  As a skilled Jason player, the problem isn't that a counselor can stand toe-to-toe with me, (they can't), but its the fact I have to respect those options and watch out for it, which improves the counselors overall kiting ability.  That is actually strongest contribution with combat skill dealing with Jason solo is.  Dealing with groups is a different beast all together.  That has less to do with overall combat options to counselor and more to do with just the numbers Jason opens himself up on any offensive actions.  Directly nerfing counselor's option is the wrong approach but buffing or tweaking Jason's existing tool (no new content, no new tools) to cover more situation would be the best approach.  Keeps things fun from both sides. 

20 hours ago, HuDawg said:

Trading hits with Jason is my biggest issue.  If anything a Jason mele hit should disarm counsellors. That way, it actually rewards the player who land the 1st attack.

That would be too harsh for counselor, especially at low level play.  Jason already has a "one mistake" kill move, the grab.  This would incentive only slashing too much since it would put the counselor in a vortex with nothing they can do.  Most Jason will just do that (again we already see often) to avoid being set back by Pocket Knives. 

8 hours ago, HuDawg said:

I think anyone who looks at the current state of Jason vs Counselor and thinks its fine is WRONG. 

I have no issues with Jason being able to get stunned.  But sure as hell not consistently and easily,  It looks stupid.  And i sure as hell don't remember Jason getting layed out for half the film. 

That is a opinion, not a fact.  My opinion is it's almost there, tweak swing Jason a bit (like extending the hitbox just a bit to allow him to space swing to be unpunished) and give him the location of Tommy radio and it should be good.  This will do wonders for the odds for Jason at higher levels without breaking balance at lower levels.  Bad Jason will always turned into a pinata, or otherwise, trolled on, and no amount of buffs or nerfs can make up for the deficiency of a player against better ones.

2 hours ago, JennyMyers1984 said:

 I believe combat stance should only block from the front and you believe otherwise.

I would have to agree with Hudawg on that one.  Even if the lockon was implemented well, too many counselors around at all angle Jason wouldn't have a way to defend them if block was only in front.  To be fair, it works this way for counselors.  Not as important obviously since it will lock on to Jason when he is close, but if Jason throws knive from a distance, you will block them regardless where you're orientated.

 

 

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1 hour ago, GeneiJin said:

  Jason already has a "one mistake" kill move, the grab.  This would incentive only slashing too much since it would put the counselor in a vortex with nothing they can do.  Most Jason will just do that (again we already see often) to avoid being set back by Pocket Knives. 

Grab is not a ONE MISTAKE kill move.  Pocket knives and help from other counselors can easily free you. And Jason still needs to actually hit grab.

Besides..  This is a very simple, balanced and fair concept.  Counselors should not be able to instantly hit Jason with a melee attack after Jason hit them with a melee attack. The exchange of trading hits, while Jason flops on the ground and they barely flinch is not only stupid looking but makes no sense.      Everytime i see this happen, being on the receiving end or the one doing it to Jason.. I shake my head.   

Wanna talk about a Vortex of nothing they can do?..   Thats exactly the type of Shit Jason can get caught up in.  Especially the 'low level play' players that you brought up.   

But as far as see it.. There something you can do as a counselor if this was implemented.

1.) Land the melee attack 1st.

2.)   RUN AWAY

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On 9/4/2018 at 5:27 PM, JennyMyers1984 said:

Again, it isn’t a competitive game and it will never be perfect. I don’t take it too seriously like some people do.

This game has brought out the best and worst in people.

On 9/4/2018 at 5:45 PM, GeneiJin said:

No one should be taking this game seriously in a sense where they are beaten or otherwise, outplayed, which is why I find is so humorous when people get salty, whether dying as counselor and especially dying as Jason :P.  I really don't care if I survive as counselor, there isn't any ranking system, and I play to have my impact on the match felt and to be satisfied with my play.  Playing for those reasons is fun for me and why I play like a "try-hard".

Some people are naturally sore losers in just about everything. It's doubtful anyone can convince them otherwise.

23 hours ago, VoorheesGt101 said:

I agree entirely with this^^^ I think the game is fun as jason or as a counselor at this point. I'm ok with killing 5 out of 7 against skilled players. For all of you wanting their jason rounds to be "auto-win" there is always bots... They act more like the teens from the films anyway lol.

I'm ok with any kills I get. If I get a clean sweep, cool. If I don't, cool. I'd rather have fun playing that obsessing over the win/loss ratio. It seems a lot of players have forgotten that basic lesson.

21 hours ago, thrawn3054 said:

Jesus this turned ugly. Nobody gives a damn if you backed the game or not. It doesn't make your opinions more valid then anyone else's.

As for the if you don't agree with my thinking so you're not a real fan bullshit, just stop already. People can still be "real fans" and not demand perfect movie accuracy. Anybody wanting to argue Jason getting layed out isn't okay because he was an unstoppable beast in the films is wrong. He got his ass beat at the end of almost every movie. Now yes, the argument can be made that was only done by the final girl and therefore only one person should be able to do that. However I feel like each counselor is a potential final girl and could be the one to topple Jason.

While some issues need to be addressed for a better balancing of the game, at least come with proper arguments for why it should change that way. Rather then I'm a "real fan" therefore my opinion is all that matters.

This topic sparked a good conversation, until it took a wrong turn with cheap shots and attempts of forced opinions as facts.

12 hours ago, JennyMyers1984 said:

Just ignore the ugliness...not worth anybody’s breath.

The final girl always came out on top and at the VERY least one person survived the movie, which is why I don’t understand people feeling entitled to getting an 8/8 when Jason never killed everybody in the movies. He was unstoppable because he went through over half the movie sneaking up on people and not being noticed. He very rarely look people on head on, he caught them by surprise. Which is why stalk kinda needs a huge buff, Jason shouldn’t be as easily noticed. I can pull off a final girl run almost every round I play because I know what i’m doing plain and simple. Call it cocky if you want but after almost a year and a half playing this game it has become second nature and any good counselor has a big chance of escaping or outlasting the clock. Of course a good counselor is going to wreck a newbie Jason’s world. Although a good Jason can easily get an 8/8.

I did the math earlier. Contrary to popular belief, Jason's success rate was nowhere near 99-100%. If the movies had 100 victims per film, then maybe his numbers would look better. He did kill the majority in each film, but such low numbers, 1 escape hurts his average a lot more than if it were 1/100.

There's a big difference between confident and cocky. A confident person knows what they can do, and lets their actions speak for them. A cocky person is talk a bunch of crap on top of showing what they can do.

11 hours ago, thrawn3054 said:

I didn't say that he should be getting constantly laid out. I said using the movies to argue his unstoppable status simply isn't true. I'm all for giving Jason a few buffs to help him deal with mobs. By all means give him a 5 second immunity after coming out of a stun. Hell if they gave him an increased stun resistance for each counselor within a certain radius above 1 I'd be fine with that too.

Interesting ideas.

10 hours ago, HuDawg said:

Thats why i think its funny when people complain when I say Jason should be able to easily steam roll through everyone in his way.  Because you should not be in his way, you should be running away like rabbits.   Not gleefully running at him to attack..

It sounds like a massive difference in opinion between your opinion and the opinions of others. The bottom line is, it's a matter of balance vs. skill. Balance will likely never be reached in such a way that everyone can agree on. At the end of the day, everyone can agree to disagree.

Person A will say Jason is too strong, perhaps because they lack the skill to face him.

Person B will say Jason is too weak, perhaps because they are lying on their back more than a hospital patient.

Person C will say Jason is just right, perhaps because they've played the game a fair amount, and understand how it works at this moment.

Person D won't really care, because they are playing to have fun. They don't care about winning or losing, being the best or worst.

In the golden age of gaming (aka the good old days), games were as-is. You either did well or not. If you didn't do well, you worked at it, got better, and aced the game, or you threw in the towel. There were no balance changes.

The game needs work, we all agree on that at least. How to make it work so that everyone is happy will require a lot of thought. You've put some ideas out there, just as others have. Not every idea put out there is gonna work, but there's no harm in everyone trying to put their heads together to make this game better off. The devs have the final say, and hopefully will do what is necessary to fix the flaws and bugs of this game.

9 hours ago, JennyMyers1984 said:

You’re looking to hard into this, just relax when you play...play to have fun and if you aren’t having fun then there are tons of other games out there. I doubt there will be many more patches for the game, sadly...

This is gaming 101. If a game stresses a person out, perhaps they are playing the wrong game.

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10 hours ago, HuDawg said:

Grab is not a ONE MISTAKE kill move.  Pocket knives and help from other counselors can easily free you. And Jason still needs to actually hit grab.

What I meant by it is that it's a situational move that can be death off one mistake or bad luck by counselors.  Slashes should not lead to instant death scenario, as players are going to completely neglect grabs.  The first hit may not actually kill, but essentially set up a touch of death sequence such as:

-Jason comes out of stalk-shift, slashes a counselor and disarms him/her, counselor player just now realizes Jason is there as a second slash is made (weapon strength Jason).  Counselor is now crippled, unarmed and fucked.

-Jason evades a swing, quick knife and slash combo, Counselor is now crippled, unarmed and fucked.

These 2 example leads to a death situation if Jason's swing forces disarm.  Getting crippled currently is already fucked enough, but at least you still have a weapon to attempt to stun Jason to heal, or if you have PK and spray, you can turtle (Block) and if Jason swings, you block, counter attack and hope for the stun, or Jason grabs which PK will save you.  Even if you have a buddy, he is likely to get slashed and unarmed, unable to help.  As is, I do use the grab as it's is still useful, but if that swing is made as powerful as you suggest, as Jason I would never use grab as the slashes could easily bypass both PK and meds, unless when I'm fucking around with my last victim.  I want Jason strong, I don't want him unfair braindead strong.  That isn't fun on ether ends.

10 hours ago, HuDawg said:

Wanna talk about a Vortex of nothing they can do?..   Thats exactly the type of Shit Jason can get caught up in.  Especially the 'low level play' players that you brought up.  

That is not true.  Jason does get stun immunity from another melee attack coming out of it for a few seconds.  If Jason gets stunned again after 4 seconds coming out of one around a group, it's the player's fault.  There is more than acquitted time to get into CS-Block and set spacing if surrounded.  While there are a few chain stuns that exist (coming out of PK animation, freeing from a bear trap, and melee-stun to fireworks combo), they require ether a setup or use of a inventory item which are finite.  While I agree that these should have been address by now by the devs, they aren't too hard to play around them.  Honestly they aren't going to set Jason back that much, and should to be accounted for when immediate decisions are required.  These tactics aren't commonly used by a typical mob and a aware Jason can avoid these by not putting himself in that situation to begin with (Such as not getting cornered by Zangief for example).

7 hours ago, Fair Play said:

Person C will say Jason is just right, perhaps because they've played the game a fair amount, and understand how it works at this moment.

I won't necessarily say Jason is "just right", but for the most part I see myself falling into this camp :D

 

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5 hours ago, GeneiJin said:

What I meant by it is that it's a situational move that can be death off one mistake or bad luck by counselors.  Slashes should not lead to instant death scenario, as players are going to completely neglect grabs.  The first hit may not actually kill, but essentially set up a touch of death sequence such as:

-Jason comes out of stalk-shift, slashes a counselor and disarms him/her, counselor player just now realizes Jason is there as a second slash is made (weapon strength Jason).  Counselor is now crippled, unarmed and fucked.

-Jason evades a swing, quick knife and slash combo, Counselor is now crippled, unarmed and fucked.

 

LOL...      Im sorry but, how is any of that bad^.      

Ya.. if Jason lands the 1st hit.   Counselors should at the very least get disarm.    Seems fair to me.  

In reality. ONE melee slash from Jason should send a counselor to the ground like a little bitch .  So having them disarmed is simply a simple, balanced and FAIR fix for a silly game play mechanic.

5 hours ago, GeneiJin said:

 

That is not true. 

  If Jason gets stunned again after 4 seconds coming out of one around a group, it's the player's fault.

Actually it is true.   

Also, Jason getting stunned again is not the players fault..  Its the game devs fault for allowing it to happen with no proper counter to it..

 

....Thats why i listed the changes that can easily fix things.   :D

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58 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

Im sorry but, how is any of that bad^.     

It's to harsh, especially for a game that apparently designed for "casuals" as a "party game", whom it would impact the most.  There is already enough scenarios that can spell doom off of a mistake, and this change will only make Jason a one dimensional slasher at all play levels.  There is a number of other tweaks such as extending the hitbox of the swing or making the hit less negative too allow a run out by counselor but will get stuffed if they try to counter attack after taking a hit. 

58 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

Also, Jason getting stunned again is not the players fault..  Its the game devs fault for allowing it to happen with no proper counter to it..

I play Jason and I use all options I have to "counter" stuns.  I don't take stun after stun nor do I become a pinata.  If I can make the effort to learn and adapt, any player can. 

 

We should stop arguing since we have both already detailed our points.   Coming as someone who studied game design in collage, I feel that the developers had the right idea with balance.  This game does reward player dedication for both Counsoler and Jason, speaking as a player of both.  Implementation of it is not by any means perfect, but some minor changes is all that is needed to help Big-J without having to directly nerfing counselors in the process.

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18 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

It's to harsh, especially for a game that apparently designed for "casuals" as a "party game", whom it would impact the most. 

Not its not 'harsh'.   Not only is it not harsh, its fair.  

I mean, ya.. Its a Party game..   A Friday the 13th party game. 

Anyone in their right mind, be it a casual, newbie or veteran can look at this issue and say.  "Thats not right".  

As my newbie friend said to ME.. When he was Jason and melee'd me.. i melee'd him back and dropped him.  His exact words being. "WTF is this crap" 

There is ZERO reason as to why Counselors can trade shots with Jason.    

18 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

.   Coming as someone who studied game design in collage

 

Well that explains explains alot.

 

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23 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

Not its not 'harsh'.   Not only is it not harsh, its fair. 

Says you, we have a difference of opinion.

23 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

There is ZERO reason as to why Counselors can trade shots with Jason.   

 Only if the Jason player allows for it.  Force them to respect your authority, smart ones will run, dumb ones will die.

23 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

Well that explains explains alot.

I'm not as much of a dick to point out mispelling or grammatically incorrect you've made in past posts just because we aren't in agreement, friend ;)

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5 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

Says you, we have a difference of opinion.

 Only if the Jason player allows for it.  Force them to respect your authority, smart ones will run, dumb ones will die.

I'm not as much of a dick to point out mispelling or grammatically incorrect you've made in past posts just because we aren't in agreement, friend ;)

I just if funny that you even think it matters that you went to 'collage' for video games in this topic.


Seriously, You talk toooo much,   You constantly miss the point.  You're extremely hypocritical (you bounce between being skilled and protecting casuals) You even drop some bullshit about going to a video game college..        

Im only focusing on cause, effect and reality.        

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6 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

I just if funny that you even think it matters that you went to 'collage' for video games in this topic.


Seriously, You talk toooo much,   You constantly miss the point.  You're extremely hypocritical (you bounce between being skilled and protecting casuals) You even drop some bullshit about going to a video game college..        

Im only focusing on cause, effect and reality.        

Doesn’t particularly matter since it is doubtful any changes will be made to the game at this point. You believe otherwise from what we’ve been stating. Your opinions and our opinions are totally different and that’s what you fail to realize. We are not all going to think the same and that doesn’t make ANYBODY’S points any more or less vaild yet you still continue to push your thought process to the forefront and anybody who doesn’t agree with you either “like the group stun Jason” or “make excuses” or “make bullshit statements”. We’ll never see eye to eye, period.

Why is this still continuing when we have varying opinions?

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16 minutes ago, JennyMyers1984 said:

We’ll never see eye to eye, period.

Why is this still continuing when we have varying opinions?

Well feel free to stop responding..

Im not twistin your nipples

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1 hour ago, HuDawg said:

IYou're extremely hypocritical (you bounce between being skilled and protecting casuals)  

I am about fairness and accounting efforts of skill level of all types while rewarding those who are dedicated, counselor or Jason.  Equal players should have equal (or close to) footing, better player should dominate less skilled ones, casual or not.  You want to remove a play-style while I rather want to maintain as many viable playstyles.  Jason has counter-play to counselor combat, its up to the player to be knowledgeable of it.

 

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1 hour ago, GeneiJin said:

.  You want to remove a play-style

 

Seriously, you still don't get the point?   

What are you even reading?

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3 hours ago, HuDawg said:

There is ZERO reason as to why Counselors can trade shots with Jason.    

No, just none that you could think of. Which isn’t suprising given your consistently poor judgement on every topic it seems.

If Jason could always beat the counselor swing then all you would ever see is the limper slashing his way through the lobby with no remorse. Since there could be no punish for the slash, then there would no reason not to just use it all the time. There are fundamental problems with the combat system but they can be overcome with enough work.

But of course you will say something ridiculous like “counselors shouldn’t be able to fight Jason”. Am I right? @GeneiJin has already bombarded you with knowledge here, as well myself and others, and yet you still fail to understand anything. It is a real pity when absolutely nothing gets through despite the most intelligent of players doing their best to communicate it to you.

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18 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

No, just none that you could think of. .

Actually theres just simply NO REASON..   

18 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

 

But of course you will say something ridiculous like “counselors shouldn’t be able to fight Jason”. Am I right?

Well since i never said or claimed that..  You're wrong..    

18 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

@GeneiJin has already bombarded you with knowledge here, as well myself and others, and yet you still fail to understand anything.

HAhaHAha..

 

You and others have bombarded me knowledge?      AhAHAHAaAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaA

Thats pretty funny, because thats not how im seeing it.. Infact it the exact opposite.   (Which is why im laughing

I've been telling it how his, and dealing with cause and effect.  And focusing on idiotic game play mechanics that SHOULD be fixed and altered.

 

All you and the two others have been saying is "NOOOOO NOOOOOOO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"  Blah Blah Blah..And i to went video game collage!

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1 hour ago, HuDawg said:

Actually theres just simply NO REASON..   

Well since i never said or claimed that..  You're wrong..    

HAhaHAha..

 

You and others have bombarded me knowledge?      AhAHAHAaAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaA

Thats pretty funny, because thats not how im seeing it.. Infact it the exact opposite.   (Which is why im laughing

I've been telling it how his, and dealing with cause and effect.  And focusing on idiotic game play mechanics that SHOULD be fixed and altered.

 

All you and the two others have been saying is "NOOOOO NOOOOOOO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"  Blah Blah Blah..And i to went video game collage!

So tell me oh might wise one...what knowledge you have given us? You’ve been saying is that Jason needs a buff to deal with group combat, nobody has disagreed with you on that but the ideas you’ve given are TOO much of a buff or just something people don’t agree with. Having counselors drop their weapons? Really? It just leaves them super vulnerable and you’d see many more slashers. It’s just not something everyone with agree with you on. We won’t all agree with you on it, deal with it.

Laugh all you want but in the end of the day, you’re never going to see those buffs. Progress on the game is most likely near the end of it’s life cycle.

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13 minutes ago, JennyMyers1984 said:

Having counselors drop their weapons? Really?

Yes.... really. ?

I don't see the issue here. Cleary hitting him 1st or dodging would be the simple counter.

You're making it sound like this is complicated.

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@HuDawg While you're right that it's silly for you to be able to trade shots with Jason from a realisim perspective. Where do you draw the line? Is it realistic for people and cabins to glow red? Or to disappear and move about at super speed? If we were being realistic a single weapon hit from Jason should kill a counselor. The shotgun should kill parts 2-5.

Sometimes things being more realistic leads to a bad game. Everybody has agreed with you the Jason needs buffs but your ideas for longer healing times and being disarmed if hit go to far.

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16 minutes ago, thrawn3054 said:

@HuDawg While you're right that it's silly for you to be able to trade shots with Jason from a realisim perspective. Where do you draw the line?

When it looks retarded and makes no sense..    

 

Im not that deep. 

 

Being disarmed isn't going 'far'.  Its actually fair in terms of game play and presentation.

 

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8 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

When it looks retarded and makes no sense..    

 

Im not that deep. 

 

Being disarmed isn't going 'far'.  Its actually fair in terms of game play and presentation.

 

Except a single hit can then spell almost automatic death. Especially when combined with your idea to making healing times take longer. You'd then have no means to defend yourself. That would hardly be fair no matter how many times you claim it is. It also would most definitely not be any fun for either side.

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19 minutes ago, thrawn3054 said:

Except a single hit can then spell almost automatic death. Especially when combined with your idea to making healing times take longer. You'd then have no means to defend yourself.

1.  Hit Jason 1st

2. Run away

3. Dodge

 

That 3 ways of defending yourself. Not including help from other counselors.

 

I could give a fuck less if someone dies.  Im only focusing on the absurdity of tanking Jason hits, to hit him back for a stun, then healing, only to do it again.  

And I would also love this when playing  as counselor.  So im not sure how its less fun. Seems fair to me

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37 minutes ago, thrawn3054 said:

Except a single hit can then spell almost automatic death. Especially when combined with your idea to making healing times take longer. You'd then have no means to defend yourself. That would hardly be fair no matter how many times you claim it is. It also would most definitely not be any fun for either side.

Again, it’s not supposed to be fair.... damn millennials want everything given to them

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12 minutes ago, NytmereZ said:

Again, it’s not supposed to be fair.... damn millennials want everything given to them

Yep, Damn those Millennials that want everything easy for Jason.  God forbids his player should be as good as the counselor's to be effective against them. ;)

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38 minutes ago, NytmereZ said:

Again, it’s not supposed to be fair.... damn millennials want everything given to them

Don't start that millennials bull shit. Like past generations had some superiority. As to things being "handed" to people I don't want to play as Jason with an easy mode. My arguments have always been to try to balance things for both sides. I don't want it to be too easy for either side.

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15 hours ago, GeneiJin said:

I won't necessarily say Jason is "just right", but for the most part I see myself falling into this camp :D

I wasn't being literal, but it's good to see where you stand in the grand scheme of this game. ?

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