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A Question About Balance

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11 hours ago, NytmereZ said:

Wrong, Jason was OP when the game was released , and the game was awesome, what people like you don’t get is that this game was initially made to,satisfy the f13 fans we are the ones who backed it and made it come to life,  then the devs catered to the gamer guys, which is why everything went to shit.

I remember a few of the wack jobs that used to cry about Jason being OP.   Mainly Dorian and the rest of his ALT accounts

He would always cry about how it took no skill to play as Jason and any newbie could wipe a lobby.  But, when he showed videos of how he played, he would constantly taunt and stand his ground against Jason and try to attack.   He would always die..  he would always complain.

 

And thats the thing.. A newbie Jason should be able to instantly kill anyone who stands their ground.  A counselors Job is to AVOID.  

 With Jasons quick block now no longer working and his grab being slower with a smaller radius.  People are juking Jasons grab to land hits or trading hits.. Or Grouping up and attacking jason.

Now newbie Jasons or even average Jasons will spend the majority of the match on their Ass...    While good Jason also can even up on his ass, a good Jason will still end up powering through that shit and get kills.  (But still has to take his lumps)

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Jason was op when the game came out due to the force grabs and nobody knowing what they were doing. Time was on Jason's side and nobody knew how to fight him. That's why he no longer seems op.

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28 minutes ago, thrawn3054 said:

Jason was op when the game came out due to the force grabs and nobody knowing what they were doing. Time was on Jason's side and nobody knew how to fight him. That's why he no longer seems op.

There was never force grabs.. It was simply a bad animation for a grab that had a near perfect grab range..  T

Fighting Jason was simply instant Death.. As it SHOULD BE.   The only reason people died fighting is because fighting back equaled death.  And the best counselors where the ones that knew how to run away and only attack if needed... and get objectives done while others where running away.  It was never about beating the shit out of Jason.

Jason is NO longer OP because QP block no longer works.  Grab is slower and its radius too small.   Its a HUGE double nerf to Jason and aggressive counselors trolls have taken full advantage of it.

Hell even before the engine updates..   Idiots where hitting Jason through intact doors in order to attack him and dance troll.  Most players did not want to be going toe to toe against Jason.

So this game is either for players who want a OP Jason OR for players who want to beat up on Jason.. Can't have both.. Sadly this game has gone the wrong direction.

NOW....Only good Jason players can actually push through Bullshit and get kills now against aggressive Counselors..    All the average Jason players now get laid out all match long for 20 minds, miss grabs non stop and eventually quit.   ( And don't i blame them when they quit)

These idiots that troll Jasons, , Dance Around..  looking to kill average Jasons players are the HERPES of this game.   

 

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1 hour ago, HuDawg said:

There was never force grabs.. It was simply a bad animation for a grab that had a near perfect grab range..  T

Fighting Jason was simply instant Death.. As it SHOULD BE.   The only reason people died fighting is because fighting back equaled death.  And the best counselors where the ones that knew how to run away and only attack if needed... and get objectives done while others where running away.  It was never about beating the shit out of Jason.

Jason is NO longer OP because QP block no longer works.  Grab is slower and its radius too small.   Its a HUGE double nerf to Jason and aggressive counselors trolls have taken full advantage of it.

Hell even before the engine updates..   Idiots where hitting Jason through intact doors in order to attack him and dance troll.  Most players did not want to be going toe to toe against Jason.

So this game is either for players who want a OP Jason OR for players who want to beat up on Jason.. Can't have both.. Sadly this game has gone the wrong direction.

NOW....Only good Jason players can actually push through Bullshit and get kills now against aggressive Counselors..    All the average Jason players now get laid out all match long for 20 minds, miss grabs non stop and eventually quit.   ( And don't i blame them when they quit)

These idiots that troll Jasons, , Dance Around..  looking to kill average Jasons players are the HERPES of this game.   

 

Again, I've said many times Jason needs help. You're correct, the quick block needs fixed. The grab animation needs speed up so a miss isn't a free hit. The range I think is fine but the radius could use an increase. There are other things but those are the main ones. We agree Jason needs a buff. We're just not in agreement as to the degree. 

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4 minutes ago, thrawn3054 said:

Again, I've said many times Jason needs help. You're correct, the quick block needs fixed. The grab animation needs speed up so a miss isn't a free hit. The range I think is fine but the radius could use an increase. There are other things but those are the main ones. We agree Jason needs a buff. We're just not in agreement as to the degree. 

Well theres another way.

 

CS should be block by default and blocks all mele attacks from all angles at all times.  Remove the block button

And give CS the old grab 

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7 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

Well theres another way.

 

CS should be block by default and blocks all mele attacks from all angles at all times.  Remove the block button

And give CS the old grab 

It would be nice if block was a single button. One of the ones on the dpad maybe.

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55 minutes ago, Redcat345 said:

Give the old grab back, plain and simple, fix block, add in some stun resistance.

This in a nutshell 

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20 hours ago, HuDawg said:

My changes only alters the game for counselors to avoid Jason rather than reward counselors for attacking him.

More run, lees stun is more fun.

I beg to differ.  If it was more fun to me, I would already migrated to DBD. 

19 hours ago, HuDawg said:

The direction of what? Less stuns and more running away?.  Hows that a bad thing?

I think you and many here are only looking at this with a small light.  When a counselor tries to stand his ground with Jason, he is taking risks, more so than if would be if the player were to pure kite.  Fighting a competent and skilled Jason alone, the dangers of becoming crippled is real, putting counselors in a very compromised position, even with a PK and sprays. Against a mob, a patient Jason can wear them down though good spacing, thought-out strikes, and quick throws, thinning out survival items and weapons leaving little left for the few remaining if they have to survive the night.  Sure, you may take a few stuns, but your mistakes only cost you 10 seconds, their game ends on theirs.  But against a expert kiter w/ Vanessa or Tommy and full inventory taking minimal risks, you better catch them by surprise, otherwise expect to be delayed if you choose to continually chase them.  I'd much rather they come at me expecting me to be yet "just another Jason".  Makes dispatching them quicker >:D.

7 hours ago, HuDawg said:

There was never force grabs.. It was simply a bad animation for a grab that had a near perfect grab range.. 

That is exactly why it was called "force grab".  It makes it harder to learn it's real range if the animation doesn't match the grab's hitbox as the launch grab did, which understandably people complained about.

7 hours ago, HuDawg said:

Fighting Jason was simply instant Death.. As it SHOULD BE.   The only reason people died fighting is because fighting back equaled death.  And the best counselors where the ones that knew how to run away and only attack if needed... and get objectives done while others where running away.  It was never about beating the shit out of Jason.

Give a reason for counselors to take you seriously, they will do just that.  Majority of the "combat" originated players only know how to deal with a basic Jason.  Once they come across a terrifying one, they usually dig their own grave for me.  Truly skilled counselors will understand what and when they have the advantage, wisely utilizing their resources.

7 hours ago, HuDawg said:

Hell even before the engine updates..   Idiots where hitting Jason through intact doors in order to attack him and dance troll.  Most players did not want to be going toe to toe against Jason.

Lol, maybe they are the smart ones.  I am that "idiot" soloing Jason out in the open (after a blotched Jason kill).  I usually have my way though >:D.

7 hours ago, HuDawg said:

So this game is either for players who want a OP Jason OR for players who want to beat up on Jason.. Can't have both.. Sadly this game has gone the wrong direction.

Your opinion.  My opinion this game should have a "slight" advantage to Jason in a full lobby, but achieve a balance where superior skill, knowledge, and experience over your opponent(s) is rewarded.  If Jason was TOO OP, then Jason would just be a braindead killbot, a novice Jason slaughtering lobbies with skilled counselors, and no one as any chance against a good one.  That would be old very fast, give no incentive to improve as counselors (whats the point?), and be a shallow and tiring experinace for Jason.  If a player wants to feel OP with Jason, play offline bot.  The point of playing real thinking and adapting players is to outsmart and outplay them.  Giving the "W" automatically to Jason is not rewarding long-term for ether side.

7 hours ago, HuDawg said:

NOW....Only good Jason players can actually push through Bullshit and get kills now against aggressive Counselors..    All the average Jason players now get laid out all match long for 20 minds, miss grabs non stop and eventually quit.   ( And don't i blame them when they quit)

These idiots that troll Jasons, , Dance Around..  looking to kill average Jasons players are the HERPES of this game.    

The better players sets dominance, that should be true in any game that places players on opposing factions. 

 

19 hours ago, NytmereZ said:

Wrong, Jason was OP when the game was released , and the game was awesome, what people like you don’t get is that this game was initially made to,satisfy the f13 fans we are the ones who backed it and made it come to life,  then the devs catered to the gamer guys, which is why everything went to shit.

Only at the first 2 months of launch.  Jason was still fundamentally flawed in areas then as he is now and the trend of fighting back Jason began with information provided by Rydog's guides and Papp... He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named videos.  Since then, skills to fight Jason has been a very viable part of consistently surviving.  Yes you can survive without it, but you are playing without a huge option at your disposal, and you will find yourself in situations where you die without it, even more so if it's an exceptional Jason.  True, trolls and toxic players can abuse it against a poor or inexperience players, but then again I can beat many players in Street Fighter only using light attacks. 

19 hours ago, NytmereZ said:

I am a 150 level backer, played this game the minute it was launched, I’m very good as Jason and kill the entire lobby 9 times out of 10 with good players

If you are one PC, we should play :D.  I'm always looking for a test for my counselor or Jason play.

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1 hour ago, GeneiJin said:

 

I think you and many here are only looking at this with a small light.  When a counselor tries to stand his ground with Jason, he is taking risks, more so than if would be if the player were to pure kite.  Fighting a competent and skilled Jason alone, the dangers of becoming crippled is real, putting counselors in a very compromised position, even with a PK and sprays. Against a mob, a patient Jason can wear them down though good spacing, thought-out strikes, and quick throws, thinning out survival items and weapons leaving little left for the few remaining if they have to survive the night.  Sure, you may take a few stuns, but your mistakes only cost you 10 seconds, their game ends on theirs.  But against a expert kiter w/ Vanessa or Tommy and full inventory taking minimal risks, you better catch them by surprise, otherwise expect to be delayed if you choose to continually chase them.  I'd much rather they come at me expecting me to be yet "just another Jason".  Makes dispatching them quicker >:D.

 

 

 

Not for nothing... But this game is not a super competitive game.. Its a casual party game based on F13th. That IS the player base.  Trolls and try hards simply burn the candles at both ends. So im simply seeing it in the correct light

Either way, IMO Jason needs to be able to easily steam roll through everyone in his path regardless of combat skills..  .  Give a LONE counsellor a way to beat the crap out of Jason, and they simply will.  Put them in goup and its a shit show. And the proof is the current state of the game.

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6 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

Not for nothing... But this game is not a super competitive game.. Its a casual party game based on F13th. That IS the player base.  Trolls and try hards simply burn the candles at both ends. So im simply seeing it in the correct light

Either way, IMO Jason needs to be able to easily steam roll through everyone in his path regardless of combat skills..  .  Give a LONE counsellor a way to beat the crap out of Jason, and they simply will.  Put them in goup and its a shit show. And the proof is the current state of the game.

I agree 100%, anyone who argues for balance in this game is more of a Video game player than a Friday the 13th fan, This is the only game on  I play on PS4, I backed and bought this game only because I am a huge F13 movie fan.

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10 hours ago, HuDawg said:

 But this game is not a super competitive game.. Its a casual party game based on F13th. That IS the player base.

No, casuals are only part of the player base.  It's also made up of tryhards, streamers, memer, trolls, teamers, team-killers, etc... :rolleyes:    Regardless if what the design intend of this game was, the truth is losing (or the feeling of losing) to another person they do not know is something many people can not take, especially if that person is a "Bad Winner " If you want to play in a casual environment, there is the "safe space" of PM.  Reach out to people, make a group of players to invite and have fun however you want to play without having egos burnt.  QP is shared space with players of all types with varied idea of what fun is and how to play this game.  Don't like it, don't play there.

10 hours ago, HuDawg said:

Trolls and try hards simply burn the candles at both ends. So im simply seeing it in the correct light

No, you are only seeing thing in your own light only.  Your perspective no less valid than mine or for that matter any other player.  Trolls and try hards exist in all multi-player games.  It is not a exclusive "problem" in this one. 

10 hours ago, HuDawg said:

Either way, IMO Jason needs to be able to easily steam roll through everyone in his path regardless of combat skills..  .  Give a LONE counsellor a way to beat the crap out of Jason, and they simply will.  Put them in goup and its a shit show. And the proof is the current state of the game.

I rather not play a Killbot that is a chore where I can just turn off my brain like its a part-time job.  Any game should reward the dedicated player, not just handover "W" to the causal player that log on occasionally just so he can feel good about himself.  Even as a Jason player, I really don't want my pray to be one dimensional rabbits I have to catch.  If they want to fight me as Jason, I welcome it.  Not my problem if a bad Jason can't deal with superior players that fight back.  If I got my ass kick, I'd ask myself if there is anyway I can overcome this before blaming the game.  If they are too stupid or lazy to use a search engine to find information to improve such as on this forum and practice, that is on them.  

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2 hours ago, GeneiJin said:

 

I rather not play a Killbot that is a chore where I can just turn off my brain like its a part-time job.  Any game should reward the dedicated player, not just handover "W" to the causal player that log on occasionally just so he can feel good about himself.  

You talk waaaaaaaaaaaay to much.  And seem to be missing my point.


Again.. this is a casual party game based on F13th.   Jason is a fuckin kill bot...      

Im not saying it should be EASY for Jason to kill people.  Im saying it should be easy for Jason to kill people who don't RUN AWAY!.  (Thats what i meant when i said steam role through anyone in his way)  

Its got nothing to do with handing over wins.     

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5 hours ago, HuDawg said:

You talk waaaaaaaaaaaay to much.  And seem to be missing my point.

When I have a opinion, I have a lot to say.  I haven't missed you point, I just don't agree with it.

5 hours ago, HuDawg said:

Again.. this is a casual party game based on F13th.   Jason is a fuckin kill bot...

Don't matter what you think or what the developer intended design, a player is going to play the game how he wants.  In a shared space environment, you are going to come across players like me as well as other player types you don't agree with.  There is nothing you can do about it, and you are better off creating your own environment and play with the players you like.  That is a better choice rather than idle bitching that changes nothing.

5 hours ago, HuDawg said:

Im not saying it should be EASY for Jason to kill people.  Im saying it should be easy for Jason to kill people who don't RUN AWAY!.  (Thats what i meant when i said steam role through anyone in his way) 

I've mentioned it easier for Jason to have a counselor aggressively come at him than the time spend dealing with a kiter.  Even as a combat specialized counselor, I know when I'm dealing with a Jason that I need to pick my spots.  Dealing with groups is tougher, and does requires patients, a cool head, and prioritizing when to deal with them if others could be a threat on objective.  A skilled group can get the better of you from time to time, but that is the fun of it.  Being outplayed gives me motivation and feedback on my mistakes.

5 hours ago, HuDawg said:

Its got nothing to do with handing over wins.     

Giving weaker players a handover against players VASTLY more skilled, experienced, and knowledgeable is giving wins.   Jason gets turned into a pinata because the player is helpless against that gap in skill.  This is true with any game with opposing sides.  Distorting the balance to such a degree isn't going to change that, and would rather disrupts the gaming experinace when skill level are equal on both ends.

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11 minutes ago, F13 Fail said:

Seems like he just cares too much. You're playing a game, he's playing life.

I'm passionate about my hobbies :) .  Personally just tired of people complaining about other players playing in a manner they don't agree with.  It's easily addressed with a little effort to find like minded individuals.  

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14 minutes ago, F13 Fail said:

Nothing wrong with that. I just play to relax and enjoy myself. I don't take things very seriously (except for the bogus bugs, those piss me off). As long as everyone is able to enjoy the game, I'm happy.

Yep, I understand people wanna sit back and don't wanna necessarily work for their entertainment.  I personally find it relaxing and enjoyable putting in work, discovering, and practicing.  In fact during times I was unemployed in collage, winning local FG tournaments was how I funded myself, lol, so I'm used to the grind.

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On 9/3/2018 at 10:30 AM, HuDawg said:

There was never force grabs.. It was simply a bad animation for a grab that had a near perfect grab range..  T

Fighting Jason was simply instant Death.. As it SHOULD BE.   The only reason people died fighting is because fighting back equaled death.  And the best counselors where the ones that knew how to run away and only attack if needed... and get objectives done while others where running away.  It was never about beating the shit out of Jason.

Jason is NO longer OP because QP block no longer works.  Grab is slower and its radius too small.   Its a HUGE double nerf to Jason and aggressive counselors trolls have taken full advantage of it.

Hell even before the engine updates..   Idiots where hitting Jason through intact doors in order to attack him and dance troll.  Most players did not want to be going toe to toe against Jason.

So this game is either for players who want a OP Jason OR for players who want to beat up on Jason.. Can't have both.. Sadly this game has gone the wrong direction.

NOW....Only good Jason players can actually push through Bullshit and get kills now against aggressive Counselors..    All the average Jason players now get laid out all match long for 20 minds, miss grabs non stop and eventually quit.   ( And don't i blame them when they quit)

These idiots that troll Jasons, , Dance Around..  looking to kill average Jasons players are the HERPES of this game.   

 

Sorry but Jason’s grab never needed to be the length of an eight foot rug. His grab now is realistic as it has a lunge but it is flawed due to the fact that Jason is locked into the animation for too long. His grab shouldn’t extend past his fingers in the first place. It was called a “force grab” due to the fact that it was waaaay too long and Jason would be super far away from the counselor. I can’t see how anybody would want that grab back. By the way the grab isn’t the only way to kill a counselor and it seems as though Jason players rely to heavily on a grab and when counselors are good at juking it becomes an issue. I don’t take the game too seriously, it is a party game to play with friends...not competitive. I used to play in private matches with a big group of people and I hated it so much, I will agree Jason is underpowered when counselors are working together (as it should be). In regular QP, Jason is not underpowered at all. It is an indy game and it is going to have flaws regardless and you won’t please every side. Jason was only OP in the beginning stages of the game because nobody knew how to really play and once people got the hang of it, the game became second nature and easier to survive. You’re going to have more trouble killing a Level 150 Tiffany than a Level 4 AJ. I just play to have fun with friends, the only thing that irks me are the game breaking glitches and host rage quits.

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9 hours ago, GeneiJin said:

No, casuals are only part of the player base.  It's also made up of tryhards, streamers, memer, trolls, teamers, team-killers, etc... :rolleyes:    Regardless if what the design intend of this game was, the truth is losing (or the feeling of losing) to another person they do not know is something many people can not take, especially if that person is a "Bad Winner " If you want to play in a casual environment, there is the "safe space" of PM.  Reach out to people, make a group of players to invite and have fun however you want to play without having egos burnt.  QP is shared space with players of all types with varied idea of what fun is and how to play this game.  Don't like it, don't play there.

No, you are only seeing thing in your own light only.  Your perspective no less valid than mine or for that matter any other player.  Trolls and try hards exist in all multi-player games.  It is not a exclusive "problem" in this one. 

I rather not play a Killbot that is a chore where I can just turn off my brain like its a part-time job.  Any game should reward the dedicated player, not just handover "W" to the causal player that log on occasionally just so he can feel good about himself.  Even as a Jason player, I really don't want my pray to be one dimensional rabbits I have to catch.  If they want to fight me as Jason, I welcome it.  Not my problem if a bad Jason can't deal with superior players that fight back.  If I got my ass kick, I'd ask myself if there is anyway I can overcome this before blaming the game.  If they are too stupid or lazy to use a search engine to find information to improve such as on this forum and practice, that is on them.  

You and I usually tend to have the same mindset. The problem is that people want a cakewalk playing as Jason. You WILL have people escape from you and run out the clock sometimes. You will not always get 8/8 and you will not always survive. Why do you want your prey to lay down and die? A cheetah is only succesful about half the time during a chase, they won’t always kill their prey...same applies here. Some people are just more lucky or maybe they’re downright more skilled than you are, sorry not sorry.

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2 hours ago, GeneiJin said:

 

Giving weaker players a handover against players VASTLY more skilled, experienced, and knowledgeable is giving wins.   Jason gets turned into a pinata because the player is helpless against that gap in skill.

 

I don't see anything im posting that gives anyone a win.  

And Jason getting easily stunned is a game play flaw.. If it can happen it will happen. So altering what makes it happen fixes that problem.  

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21 minutes ago, JennyMyers1984 said:

Old grab? Nah. Everything else? Yes.

Give old grab back with current animation and it's perfect. Original had broken animation. There would be fear in counselors again.

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14 minutes ago, JennyMyers1984 said:

The problem is that people want a cakewalk playing as Jason. Why do you want your prey to lay down and die? 

LOL.....

Well the reality is, its usually Jason thats doing most of the laying down. 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, JennyMyers1984 said:

You and I usually tend to have the same mindset.

Yea, perhaps it's because we both sub-main Jenny, lol. 

I think the point&click nature of the new grab is fine, as it now requires thought-out reads and timing to use rather than just spamming it.  I do agree it's recovery should be quicker (it should still be punishable, but not THAT punishable), but I believe the biggest issues with it was the removal of "body-shielding".  That effectively widened the spacing counselors need to keep within each other, not to mention making proper saves trivial.  Grab has always been limited against groups, now effectively rendering it almost useless there against any skill level.  My guess the devs removed shielding due to complains of shitty hit detection.  Very lazy way to address it.

29 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

And Jason getting easily stunned is a game play flaw.. If it can happen it will happen. So altering what makes it happen fixes that problem

The mechanics of the stun system and how it conceptually works is just fine, but I do agree that it needs some tweaks to iron out a lot of it''s jank.

26 minutes ago, Redcat345 said:

Give old grab back with current animation and it's perfect. Original had broken animation. There would be fear in counselors again.

I didn't fear Jason with that grab back then, I'm not going to fear him if they brought it back.

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29 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

LOL.....

Well the reality is, its usually Jason thats doing most of the laying down. 

 

 

If the Jason player spams the grab button like an idiot then they’re going to get punished by a counselor with a bat. There was a time where I was running to the police and Jason was behind me just SPAMMING the grab button, like what is that gonna do when I’m 12 feet in front of you? Usually if Jason lies on his ass the entire round he is probably a newbie. I don’t see many higher level Jason players who are flat on their ass for most of the round. Expect to be stunned though, experienced counselors aren’t going down without a fight.

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