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A Question About Balance

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@OP

Replying directly to the name of your topic, IMO there shouldn’t be “balance” in F13.

This game should always be in Jason’s favor. The problem is people cry and want values from other games implemented into F13, such as balance. This made the developers nerf Jason, which has added to killing this game off. 

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2 hours ago, pro5pt0 said:

@OP

Replying directly to the name of your topic, IMO there shouldn’t be “balance” in F13.

This game should always be in Jason’s favor. The problem is people cry and want values from other games implemented into F13, such as balance. This made the developers nerf Jason, which has added to killing this game off. 

Balance exists in all games. Even if it was something like 80/20 in killers favor, that would be the "balance", though a skewed one.  The devs have to find a balance that would ensure fun for both sides.  The balance isn't entirely bad, I'd say about 45/55 in counselor's favor, maybe at worst 40/60.  The more exposing factor however is the average counselor play is better than the average Jason, which makes sense since we spent most of our time here playing counselor.  Jason also is harder to play both in functionality and decisions to consider.  The reasons we see Jason pinata is because they are more "basic" Jasons out there than good ones these days.

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2 hours ago, GeneiJin said:

Balance exists in all games. Even if it was something like 80/20 in killers favor, that would be the "balance", though a skewed one.  The devs have to find a balance that would ensure fun for both sides.  The balance isn't entirely bad, I'd say about 45/55 in counselor's favor, maybe at worst 40/60.  The more exposing factor however is the average counselor play is better than the average Jason, which makes sense since we spent most of our time here playing counselor.  Jason also is harder to play both in functionality and decisions to consider.  The reasons we see Jason pinata is because they are more "basic" Jasons out there than good ones these days.

A number of stellar Jason players have left this game for greener pastures.

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8 hours ago, GeneiJin said:

  The reasons we see Jason pinata is because they are more "basic" Jasons out there than good ones these days.

The reason any sort of 'pinata' bullshit is happening is due to bad game play mechanic choices and gun failing to address it..  Any of these things would better balance the game.

- Melee attacks from Jason should instantly disarm counselors.   

- Jason should have a 5-10 second stun immunity after getting stunned.

-  RAGE mode should increase stun immunity to 15-20 seconds.  And double Jason melee attack damage.

- Counselors should NOT be able to hold duplicate items

- Healing time should take 5-10 seconds of spray animation on loop

Because constant Jason stunning is happening due to.

- Being able attack Jason knowing that if Jason gets hit he gets stunned for 5-10 seconds. Even if Jason connects with a hit at the same time a counselor does.

- Being able to chain stun..

-No consequence for getting melee attacked as a counselor other than loss of hit points. (Which can be altered drastically in counselor favors due to perks)

- Holding duplicate items and being able to heal to many times  (Also an issue due to perks)

- Short healing time. (Also an issue due to perks)

 

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I agree with @HuDawg. This is where DbD got it right IMO. You have checkpoints when healing; you can't just use med spray for 2 seconds and be healed. In DbD the killer is OP because the killer should be OP. In horror movies, the killer is typically always OP. Don't get me wrong, I love F13; I like it more than DbD, but the F13 Devs dropped the ball when too many people were complaining that Jason was too OP. They caved in and made it easier to beat him up and took the fun out of being Jason. You're not playing as young Jason in this game. He shouldn't be getting bullied like he does, he should be feared.

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18 minutes ago, NightofthePodcast said:

I agree with @HuDawg. This is where DbD got it right IMO. You have checkpoints when healing; you can't just use med spray for 2 seconds and be healed. In DbD the killer is OP because the killer should be OP. In horror movies, the killer is typically always OP. Don't get me wrong, I love F13; I like it more than DbD, but the F13 Devs dropped the ball when too many people were complaining that Jason was too OP. They caved in and made it easier to beat him up and took the fun out of being Jason. You're not playing as young Jason in this game. He shouldn't be getting bullied like he does, he should be feared.

I mean..  Just looking at one thing.

 

Jason and Counselor both run up to each other..  They both swing at the same time.

Jason lands a hit.. Counselor barely flinches.  Counselor lands the hit, Jason flops on his ass for 5-10 seconds.   Counselor can heal in 1 second and do it all over again. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.     Its ass backwards.  WTF, is Jason using a NERF weapon for Melee Attacks?  

(It should be Jason hits a counselor, counselor drops melee weapon..)

Im not sure why Gun has not simply addressed this.  This ain't rocket science and should have fixed ASAP.

Also.. I really don't remember many people complaining about Jason being to OP.. Its was like 5 people who would never shut up and made multiple accounts to argue their points that NO one agreed with.

 

 

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On 8/29/2018 at 10:54 PM, Xiertic said:

Hello crew, new person here with a quick question. 

Lately my friends and I have been playing rival game Dead By Daylight (since it was free this month for PS Plus users). We found it extremely fun, and it made a few of us interested in trying this game out as well. Half the guys in our group played this before though it seems, and they swear vehemently that it's not good 'cause Jason can be killed/stun locked super easy. I ran a few Google searches on the issue and all the topics/posts I found seem to just sort of stop around the March 2018 time frame. So the question is, is that still a thing? Or did it get patched up? 
 

The few of us that wanted to try this are still gonna give it a whirl, but I ask this 'cause I'm hoping that if there's been a change I can return to the group and talk the others into giving this a second chance as well. ^.^ 

Welcome to F13!

As it stands now, Jason can indeed be slapped around mercilessly, especially by experienced players. The game was originally built with the mindset that while escape was possibly, it was not common and you'd usually die to Jason. This wasn't a negative as you gained EXP regardless if you died or not, just by being around when the match closed. 

Sadly, folks who came off of DBD or didn't know that this game was meant to be heavily lopsided in favor of Jason and not "balanced" were able to sway the decision, and a situation where 4+ counselors were needed to hinder Jason now only requires 1-2.

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11 hours ago, pro5pt0 said:

@OP

Replying directly to the name of your topic, IMO there shouldn’t be “balance” in F13.

This game should always be in Jason’s favor. The problem is people cry and want values from other games implemented into F13, such as balance. This made the developers nerf Jason, which has added to killing this game off. 

100%. Correct they catered to game geeks, who usually pick Vanessa and troll Jason  or the many 8 year old kids who now play this game who just gang up and beat on Jason.

Im a 150 level player and a backer, I’m a good Jason i can clear a lobby of skilled people most of the time,  100% of the time with low level people but it takes a lot of work, its not fun getting stunned 15 times even if you clear a lobby, as a counselor it’s so easy to get away or stun Jason it makes it no fun as well, I don’t even swing a weapon at Jason anymore he goes down to easy, and I still escape 9 times out of 10. The game is not catered to the F13 fans and the backers such as myself who made this game possible.

Gunn should be ashamed of themselves 

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On 8/30/2018 at 12:18 AM, woundcowboy said:

Compared to DBD, this game is more balanced for the killer (Jason), although counselors can still rule ass if they are good. It's also just fun and very different from DBD, so you should play it.

Are you one of those people who watch the game on YouTube and don’t actually play it?  Jason is a cream puff in this game now

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3 hours ago, NightofthePodcast said:

I agree with @HuDawg. This is where DbD got it right IMO. You have checkpoints when healing; you can't just use med spray for 2 seconds and be healed. In DbD the killer is OP because the killer should be OP. In horror movies, the killer is typically always OP. Don't get me wrong, I love F13; I like it more than DbD, but the F13 Devs dropped the ball when too many people were complaining that Jason was too OP. They caved in and made it easier to beat him up and took the fun out of being Jason. You're not playing as young Jason in this game. He shouldn't be getting bullied like he does, he should be feared.

The healing is balanced that way in DbD because you essentially have three lives. If they implemented the changes HuDawg suggested the game would be dead in a week.

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2 hours ago, thrawn3054 said:

The healing is balanced that way in DbD because you essentially have three lives. If they implemented the changes HuDawg suggested the game would be dead in a week.

Dead this this dead that....

My changes would only change silly game mechanic from happening.. and the only people who would stop playing are children and Counselor trolls.  

 

My changes would also bring back actual REAL players who grew tired of seeing Jason get knocked on his ass and trolled soo easily. 

Seems like fair a trade.  

It makes ZERO sense for healing to be soo quick.. and Jason to be stunned so easily for so long (longer than counsellors take to heal). With counselor being able to trade shots with Jason and Jason being the one that drops.  Its backwards

 

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7 hours ago, HuDawg said:

The reason any sort of 'pinata' bullshit is happening is due to bad game play mechanic choices and gun failing to address it..  Any of these things would better balance the game.

That list is a bit severe.  Most people here were happy with the balance with the patch just before the engine update.  I've have previously posted balance changes in the past, but it was suggestions of slight buffs to aid Jason, not to limit counselor's options or otherwise make them less fun to play (after all, we all spend most of out time playing them ? ).

6 hours ago, HuDawg said:

Jason and Counselor both run up to each other..  They both swing at the same time.

Jason lands a hit.. Counselor barely flinches.  Counselor lands the hit, Jason flops on his ass for 5-10 seconds.   Counselor can heal in 1 second and do it all over again. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.     Its ass backwards.  WTF, is Jason using a NERF weapon for Melee Attacks? 

If making Jason's swing negative on block or hit was intentional, my best guess is to prevent counselors stuck in a Slash Vortex.  If Jason was positive, Jason play would likely devolve into brainlessly slashing everyone to death (as if people don't complaint about it enough already)  with little, if not, no option getting out of it without backup, especially since getting into blocking is slower than before.  Not saying Jason's swing shouldn't be tweaked, but it also shouldn't be overwhelmingly strong where Jasons would completely neglect grabbing (which also already many seem to do currently).

If I can get only one buff I suggested in the past, it would be to ether reveal the location of the Tommy radio to Jason or remove it's random element.   This would have a positive impact on the meta overall, mainly discouraging squads from having the single track goal of killing Jason.

6 hours ago, NightofthePodcast said:

In DbD the killer is OP because the killer should be OP. In horror movies, the killer is typically always OP

I have never played DBD, but I have tons of friends who has played that game just as much as F13.  Majority have said that Killer is stronger in this game, and a complaint I hear from player new to F13 that came from DBD that this game is too unforgiving to Survivors.  Makes sense since you are given several chances in that game.  F13 is brutal for new players, since unless you find a PK (even that isn't guaranteed a 2nd lease on life), you'll be squashed out immediately.

5 hours ago, NytmereZ said:

Im a 150 level player and a backer, I’m a good Jason i can clear a lobby of skilled people most of the time,  100% of the time with low level people but it takes a lot of work, its not fun getting stunned 15 times even if you clear a lobby, as a counselor it’s so easy to get away or stun Jason it makes it no fun as well, I don’t even swing a weapon at Jason anymore he goes down to easy, and I still escape 9 times out of 10. The game is not catered to the F13 fans and the backers such as myself who made this game possible.

Maybe its the Fighting Game player in me, but I have a blast playing Jason.  Whether it against escapers or Kill-squads, low-level or veteran players, kiters or fighters, I enjoy what they can challenge me with.   I really don't give a shit if they manage to stun me, but then again, I don't make it easy even if I'm dealing with a mob.  Part of playing Jason is being patient and calculating, as well as influencing where the counselors are and where they are going.

 

While I am of the belief that the Jason experience should be smoother and a bit easier (mechanically) for more players, playing him should not be a free lunch ether and making him stronger shouldn't come at the expense of removing options for counselors.  True this game is a survival game, but over time many of us gotten really good at doing that, survive, at least to the point where the average Jason's threat is marginalized.  A skilled Jason, who kills efficiently, prioritizes, and knows how to deal with players of all types, is still a force to be reckoned with.  This game (outside of level unlockable, task orientated achievements, and garbage RNG perks system) has no progression or ranking system, so any progression goal or reward for improvement is self-assigned.  I remember the moment where all my dying from trial and error finally payed off when I can finally fight back the average Jason.  I'm been long since now at the point where I no longer lose to Jason, I lose to the Jason Player.  That feeling is extremely rewarding, is satisfying, and improving on it since is the only reason why I'm still here.  

If you are a causal or average skilled player, or even a good one that is annoyed that you have to work for against skilled counselors, I don't know what to tell you.  I, and player like-minded, will continue to play this game how we like to until we loss interest (or no longer can't).   If you don't like it, I suggest playing in PM lobbies with gathered friends or stick with online Bots.  QP is the wild wild west.   Whether it's Jason or counselors, the consistent result with be the better player sets dominance.

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40 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

My changes would also bring back actual REAL players who grew tired of seeing Jason get knocked on his ass and trolled soo easily.

With the general distrust to Gun, no new content, and lack of faith that this game will ever function properly, no change will ever bring back these players.

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3 hours ago, thrawn3054 said:

The healing is balanced that way in DbD because you essentially have three lives. If they implemented the changes HuDawg suggested the game would be dead in a week.

I don't think extreme changes will kill off the game. They'll shake things up, but not kill it off. Anytime a change is implemented, three things happen.

1. Players will quit because the change is too much for them to handle.

2. Players will take a break and check in from time to time to see if things change to be more to their liking.

3. Players will be upset, and insist on another change to undo the one that just happened.

1 hour ago, HuDawg said:

My changes would only change silly game mechanic from happening.. and the only people who would stop playing are children and Counselor trolls.

My changes would also bring back actual REAL players who grew tired of seeing Jason get knocked on his ass and trolled soo easily.

Some of your proposed changes have a bit of merit. They might deter a few children and/or trolls, but not all of them. Likewise, they might bring a few people back to the game, and pull in a few new ones, but it won't bring us back to the larger numbers of players we once had.

1 hour ago, GeneiJin said:

Maybe its the Fighting Game player in me, but I have a blast playing Jason.  Whether it against escapers or Kill-squads, low-level or veteran players, kiters or fighters, I enjoy what they can challenge me with.   I really don't give a shit if they manage to stun me, but then again, I don't make it easy even if I'm dealing with a mob.  Part of playing Jason is being patient and calculating, as well as influencing where the counselors are and where they are going.

It sounds like you are enjoying the game somewhat as intended.

1 hour ago, GeneiJin said:

With the general distrust to Gun, no new content, and lack of faith that this game will ever function properly, no change will ever bring back these players.

The peak of this game has come and gone. Those of us still playing will enjoy what we can, while we can.

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2 hours ago, Fair Play said:

I don't think extreme changes will kill off the game. They'll shake things up, but not kill it off. Anytime a change is implemented, three things happen.

With this game at it's current state, any flux of players leaving will be felt.  Historically, major or massive changes to a way a game plays that has already been established is usually received negatively by it's existing playerbase, as your 3 point illustrates.  Minor tweaks are safer, and honestly that really what this game needs....... (besides fix the longstanding bugs).

2 hours ago, Fair Play said:

It sounds like you are enjoying the game somewhat as intended.

Thanks man.  Don't really care whether or not if I play how it was "intended", I play based on what I found to be effective.   To me, Jason's goal is not to "Win".  Jason's goal is to "Kill", plain and simple.  Sometimes a car will get out, boat, cops arrive, and even the threat of being killed as Jason.  Too many people take is too seriously attempting to "Win" as if anything other than clearing the lobby is a loss.  I'm a "try-hard", but I look at my role as the Dungeon Master who's mission is to provide the trill of surviving the map.  In my books, I only consider being an ineffective Jason, one who is bullied and reduced to a pinata, as a loss.  I've put in the work, practice, and continue to learn from my mistakes.  You may get out in the full 4 seater, but I will never allowed myself to be bullied, and counselors that stick around will die eventually if no one is preparing an escape.

2 hours ago, Fair Play said:

The peak of this game has come and gone. Those of us still playing will enjoy what we can, while we can.

Sad and true.  Before I can generally find full lobbies any time I play, but if I log on now on off hours, say 4 am, lobbies are pretty dead, PC.

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7 hours ago, NytmereZ said:

Are you one of those people who watch the game on YouTube and don’t actually play it?  Jason is a cream puff in this game now

I consider myself to be a good killer in both games. I think the counselors have an edge over Jason, but DBD is set up pretty much so that at least 1-2 people escape every time unless they try to be too altruistic .

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4 hours ago, HuDawg said:

Dead this this dead that....

My changes would only change silly game mechanic from happening.. and the only people who would stop playing are children and Counselor trolls.  

 

My changes would also bring back actual REAL players who grew tired of seeing Jason get knocked on his ass and trolled soo easily. 

Seems like fair a trade.  

It makes ZERO sense for healing to be soo quick.. and Jason to be stunned so easily for so long (longer than counsellors take to heal). With counselor being able to trade shots with Jason and Jason being the one that drops.  Its backwards

 

You seem to forget that you have to keep a balance between both sides to keep the game fun. I've repeatedly said Jason does need some help but your suggestions will push it too far in the other direction. In your version of the game I'd probably call it a day with this game. Why would I want to play a game that you're pretty much guaranteed to lose, or if selected as Jason be board by the lack of a challenge? You can be dismissive all you want, but a drastic change like you suggest would be the death blow.

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1 hour ago, GeneiJin said:

Thanks man.  Don't really care whether or not if I play how it was "intended", I play based on what I found to be effective.   To me, Jason's goal is not to "Win".  Jason's goal is to "Kill", plain and simple.  Sometimes a car will get out, boat, cops arrive, and even the threat of being killed as Jason.  Too many people take is too seriously attempting to "Win" as if anything other than clearing the lobby is a loss.  I'm a "try-hard", but I look at my role as the Dungeon Master who's mission is to provide the trill of surviving the map.  In my books, I only consider being an ineffective Jason, one who is bullied and reduced to a pinata, as a loss.  I've put in the work, practice, and continue to learn from my mistakes.  You may get out in the full 4 seater, but I will never allowed myself to be bullied, and counselors that stick around will die eventually if no one is preparing an escape.

No problem. I too, find more enjoyment in creating a good atmosphere in a match. If people get killed, they get killed. If people escape or survive, then they escape or survive. As long as everyone is having a good time within the rules, I'm fine either way. I try to personify Jason as he would be in the movies.

3 minutes ago, thrawn3054 said:

You seem to forget that you have to keep a balance between both sides to keep the game fun.

This is the point a lot of people struggle with. Both sides have to have fun. If one does and the other doesn't, then you're gonna lose a lot of players because of it.

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4 minutes ago, Fair Play said:

 

This is the point a lot of people struggle with. Both sides have to have fun. If one does and the other doesn't, then you're gonna lose a lot of players because of it.

Exactly. I agree Jason needs some tweaks to help with him getting bullied. At the same time those complaining about being bullied as Jason need to look at themselves first and not immediately blame the game mechanics.

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47 minutes ago, thrawn3054 said:

You seem to forget that you have to keep a balance between both sides to keep the game fun. I've repeatedly said Jason does need some help but your suggestions will push it too far in the other direction. In your version of the game I'd probably call it a day with this game. Why would I want to play a game that you're pretty much guaranteed to lose,

My changes only alters the game for counselors to avoid Jason rather than reward counselors for attacking him.

More run, lees stun is more fun.

Even with out melee weapons, counsellors can push objectives and escape.. Theres zero reason for counselors to be able to dominate Jason in combat. Melee weapons should be for freeing grabbed counselors or last resort/sneaky hits. Not trading hits and stun fests.

Also counselors should only lose stamina when the run..  To even things out.

 

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39 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

My changes only alters the game for counselors to avoid Jason rather than reward counselors for attacking him.

More run, lees stun is more fun.

Even with out melee weapons, counsellors can push objectives and escape.. Theres zero reason for counselors to be able to dominate Jason in combat. Melee weapons should be for freeing grabbed counselors or last resort/sneaky hits. Not trading hits and stun fests.

Also counselors should only lose stamina when the run..  To even things out.

 

Like I said he needs some help but I believe your ideas will push it too far the other direction. 

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1 hour ago, thrawn3054 said:

You seem to forget that you have to keep a balance between both sides to keep the game fun. I've repeatedly said Jason does need some help but your suggestions will push it too far in the other direction. In your version of the game I'd probably call it a day with this game. Why would I want to play a game that you're pretty much guaranteed to lose, or if selected as Jason be board by the lack of a challenge? You can be dismissive all you want, but a drastic change like you suggest would be the death blow.

Wrong, Jason was OP when the game was released , and the game was awesome, what people like you don’t get is that this game was initially made to,satisfy the f13 fans we are the ones who backed it and made it come to life,  then the devs catered to the gamer guys, which is why everything went to shit.

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1 hour ago, thrawn3054 said:

Exactly. I agree Jason needs some tweaks to help with him getting bullied. At the same time those complaining about being bullied as Jason need to look at themselves first and not immediately blame the game mechanics.

I am a 150 level backer, played this game the minute it was launched, I’m very good as Jason and kill the entire lobby 9 times out of 10 with good players, but I still get beat on and bullied, it doesn’t matter how good you are as Jason he is so weak , you are going to get but up and chained stunned no matter what you do

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48 minutes ago, thrawn3054 said:

Like I said he needs some help but I believe your ideas will push it too far the other direction. 

The direction of what? Less stuns and more running away?.  Hows that a bad thing?

 

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8 hours ago, thrawn3054 said:

Exactly. I agree Jason needs some tweaks to help with him getting bullied. At the same time those complaining about being bullied as Jason need to look at themselves first and not immediately blame the game mechanics.

I agree with you that a lot of complaints came from a few players who wanted things easier for one side, rather than stepping their game up. Game balance in this title has been hard to achieve. Each time enough people complained about something, it was changed. Then the opposite side of the spectrum complained, and that led to more changes. Each time things got changed, it led to complaints about something else, which led to more changes.

7 hours ago, HuDawg said:

Even with out melee weapons, counsellors can push objectives and escape.. Theres zero reason for counselors to be able to dominate Jason in combat. Melee weapons should be for freeing grabbed counselors or last resort/sneaky hits. Not trading hits and stun fests.

The only thing about how something "should" be used, is that people will still think outside the box. That outside the box thinking has led to so many things about this game that were never considered in the beginning.

7 hours ago, NytmereZ said:

Wrong, Jason was OP when the game was released , and the game was awesome, what people like you don’t get is that this game was initially made to,satisfy the f13 fans we are the ones who backed it and made it come to life,  then the devs catered to the gamer guys, which is why everything went to shit.

A large part of Jason being OP in the beginning, was because a lot of people didn't know what they know now. If the Jason hunting parties could go back in time and advise their past selves about what they have learned to do over time, I wonder how the launch weekend would have been for this game. At some point, someone came up with the bright idea of fighting toe-to-toe with Jason. Then others jumped on the bandwagon. Now it has become quite a trend in the game. It's not going away any time soon.

7 hours ago, NytmereZ said:

I am a 150 level backer, played this game the minute it was launched, I’m very good as Jason and kill the entire lobby 9 times out of 10 with good players, but I still get beat on and bullied, it doesn’t matter how good you are as Jason he is so weak , you are going to get but up and chained stunned no matter what you do

The issue is partly "Jason is a bit on the weak side". It's also partly "counselors have taken their learning curve to the max." When you have detailed guides, Youtube videos, and word of mouth from more experienced players, things are gonna shift. People know the tricks of the trade in this game. That holds true on both sides. Adjusting the balance to the game will make players take the time to assess the changes. Things will be fine for a while, then someone will voice concerns about balance again. Things will change once more. It's an endless cycle.

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