Jump to content
NthnButAGoodTime

Why Jason? Why did he endure?

Recommended Posts

You are on this forum because of a game starring an iconic murderer from a popular movie series that came to prominence in the 1980s.

What I'd love to discuss is: What made Jason so special that he continued to endure? How did he earn the cultural iconography surrounding him? Why did audiences keep showing up for sequel after sequel? What made him more deserving of those sequels than the countless other slashers from the '80s that only genre fans remember? How is it that Cropsy, or Buddy Bacon, or Angela, or Kenny Hampson, or The Miner didn't capture the imagination of the general populace, whereas many people see a plain white goalie mask and think of a killer before they think of hockey? Why wasn't there a long running series surrounding Bill Roberts killing employees of various retail environments? Why wasn't a video game instead developed around a long catalog of movies centered around Madman Marz?

Was it luck? Was it the mask? Was it the hustle of the studio or producers? What happened that we still care about Jason vs all of the other slashers he left in his wake?

CpbNVrIWYAAuvRa.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll go first.

I can't speak for the world, but for me personally -- it was the root of the story.

Most "killer" characters either didn't have much background development, or were just "evil" to begin with. They could still tell a good story, but they were always "the bad guy" and you were supposed to hope for their victims to survive.

With Jason, though -- it was sort of the other way round, wasn't it?

Both Jason and his mother started off as victims. They became statistics of a society who either didn't care enough about them to help, or turned an intentional blind eye to their sufferings. 

Society killed Jason -- the only thing that really mattered to Pamela.

So, she snapped.

In F13, often the victims are people we AREN'T supposed to like. Then we cheer when Jason RISES again and extracts vengeance for himself and his mother. If we know the whole story, we feel for JASON. As parents, we feel for PAMELA. They are not lashing out because they are evil. They are lashing out because they were forced there by society.

Does that make Jason/Pamela sort of "anti-hero" characters? That's open to interpretation. But in these films, we often enjoy seeing Jason clean house, and THEN get to a point where we're ready for him to be stopped. 

And he is. At least for a while.

The formula works, and it's an emotional payoff.

That's why this story will always be my favorite.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me,it's more of the killers in the Friday the 13th series being sympathetic villains.In the original,Jason was a victim....he didn't do anything wrong,he didn't deserve to die.He drowned because the adults in charge of him we not doing their jobs.Also,when you added in Freddy VS Jason,and you see Jason get bullied by the other kids,i can relate to that.I grew up in an abusive home,and have been abused by most of the people in my entire life,including my previous girlfriends.Ialso get alot of abuse from the customers at my job,which i can't escape.As a result of my abuse,i've had 2 suicide attempts,and i'm always hoping i don't have a 3rd.So i can also relate to Friday The 13th on a very personal level.

With Pamela and Roy,you feel sorry for them,because a parent's worst nightmare is to outlive one of their kids,which is sadly a bit more common nowadays,when kids are dying young,either to violence or horrific birth defects.With Jason,there's also a second part where you fell sorry for him when you realize he sees Pamela get killed in an extremely violent way right infront of him.How does a man with the mind of a small child process that?How does anyone,really?

Even though i also like some other horror movies,it's hard to feel sorry for someone like Freddy,who,even though you see him being made fun of as a kid(Freddy's Dead),you also see him using a hammer to crush a gerbil,and he and Chucky are constantly laughing at,and abusing their victims as they kill them.

As a result,i tend to view Friday the 13th as a sort of tragedy story that becomes a revenge story,whereas many other movies are just about revenge from the beginning.I guess that's why Friday is my favorite horror franchise,i guess.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with all of these points. There are too many words to explain why I like this series, the previous posters covered it.

The one thing I will add is the aesthetics and soundtrack definitely helped in addition to what was previously mentioned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Cokeyskunk, @JF13, I think the sympathetic killer could be part of it, but I don't think it's the whole picture. Terror Train, The Burning, and My Bloody Valentine follow the model of the killer having been wronged as the catalyst for the drive to kill, but they didn't really impact the culture. Plus, I would argue that the general population doesn't know Jason's backstory, but they who Jason is. Both of you had to have been drawn to the series, somehow, before you knew the backstory.

@Redcat345, I agree the aesthetics and soundtrack contributed, but I just don't see that being how the franchise endured in the cultural conscience for so long. People who've never seen the red-painted door of a Crystal Lake cabin, or heard the echo of "ki-ki-ki ma-ma-ma" have still heard of Jason Voorhees.

I wonder if the simplicity of the mask contributed, too. The face-hugging mask had been standard hockey goaltender equipment for a while, prior to Part 3's release, but was no longer the only option as the helmet-cage combo was offering more protection and visibility. Kids would've had easy access to that style of mask to complete a homemade Jason Halloween costume. That still can't be all of it, can it?

41-5R4o2HsL.jpg

hk19823_OPeeChee__105www.jpg

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NthnButAGoodTime said:

@Cokeyskunk, @JF13, I think the sympathetic killer could be part of it, but I don't think it's the whole picture. Terror Train, The Burning, and My Bloody Valentine follow the model of the killer having been wronged as the catalyst for the drive to kill, but they didn't really impact the culture. Plus, I would argue that the general population doesn't know Jason's backstory, but they who Jason is. Both of you had to have been drawn to the series, somehow, before you knew the backstory.

@Redcat345, I agree the aesthetics and soundtrack contributed, but I just don't see that being how the franchise endured in the cultural conscience for so long. People who've never seen the red-painted door of a Crystal Lake cabin, or heard the echo of "ki-ki-ki ma-ma-ma" have still heard of Jason Voorhees.

I wonder if the simplicity of the mask contributed, too. The face-hugging mask had been standard hockey goaltender equipment for a while, prior to Part 3's release, but was no longer the only option as the helmet-cage combo was offering more protection and visibility. Kids would've had easy access to that style of mask to complete a homemade Jason Halloween costume. That still can't be all of it, can it?

41-5R4o2HsL.jpg

hk19823_OPeeChee__105www.jpg

 

 

The mask from part 3 it is then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NthnButAGoodTime said:

@Cokeyskunk, @JF13, I think the sympathetic killer could be part of it, but I don't think it's the whole picture.

ah....i guess i don't know what answer you're looking for then.sorry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Redcat345 said:

The mask from part 3 it is then.

13 minutes ago, JF13 said:

ah....i guess i don't know what answer you're looking for then.sorry.

:oNo no no no! That's not what I meant! I'm just discussing possibilities.:sadchappa:

I don't think the mask did all the work!:JasonPt3: I feel like there was more that contributed beyond the pieces we've mentioned, but I don't have the whole puzzle in my head. I was just hoping for a discussion.:) This wasn't meant to be a pop-quiz, just a conversation starter. Before your ever saw a Friday the 13th movie, why did you know what they were and who Jason was? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NthnButAGoodTime said:

:oNo no no no! That's not what I meant! I'm just discussing possibilities.:sadchappa:

I don't think the mask did all the work!:JasonPt3: I feel like there was more that contributed beyond the pieces we've mentioned, but I don't have the whole puzzle in my head. I was just hoping for a discussion.:) This wasn't meant to be a pop-quiz, just a conversation starter. Before your ever saw a Friday the 13th movie, why did you know what they were and who Jason was? 

well,being that i grew up in an abusive home,i was in and out of psychiatric hospitals from ages 3-18.I forget how old i was,but part 6 had just come out on cable tv,and my rommate at the hospital was telling me about part 6,and briefly mentioned the first few.As a result,when part 6 finally came out on vhs,and i got home from the hospital(I was there that time for i think 7 months,yeah,my childhood sucked alot)my dad took me out to rent a few of the movies.Due to how often the movies got rented out,and only being able to see them in an odd order,i saw part 6 first,then went back every 2 days until i then saw part 5,then 4,3,2 and lastly 1.So i did not see them in the proper order when i first got into them.I don't think i qualify as someone who can say historically why this franchise endures,i only know why it endures with me,which is i guess what i stated.Not sure what else to add,i'm bad at this sort of thing....i only know what interests me as a fan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, JF13 said:

well,being that i grew up in an abusive home,i was in and out of psychiatric hospitals from ages 3-18.I forget how old i was,but part 6 had just come out on cable tv,and my rommate at the hospital was telling me about part 6,and briefly mentioned the first few.As a result,when part 6 finally came out on vhs,and i got home from the hospital(I was there that time for i think 7 months,yeah,my childhood sucked alot)my dad took me out to rent a few of the movies.Due to how often the movies got rented out,and only being able to see them in an odd order,i saw part 6 first,then went back every 2 days until i then saw part 5,then 4,3,2 and lastly 1.So i did not see them in the proper order when i first got into them.I don't think i qualify as someone who can say historically why this franchise endures,i only know why it endures with me,which is i guess what i stated.Not sure what else to add,i'm bad at this sort of thing....i only know what interests me as a fan.

Do you remember what your roommate said that sold you on it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NthnButAGoodTime said:

Do you remember what your roommate said that sold you on it?

Not really.I was just a little kid back then,and i'm 42 now,and i have alot of memory problems,due to my mental health issues,so there's a lot of stuff from back then than i just can't recall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i think what intially drew me in was the title. my birthday is on the 13th so i think i almost felt a connection in some ways due to the actual title and ive been hooked ever since. fyi my birthday also happens to be this friday!!! woot woot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean, simplistically it's the branding of the hockey mask, and the power of Paramount's marketing. Same with Freddy and his glove. Characters that are easily brandable and recognizable create franchises. Chucky. Annabelle. Ghost Face. Michael Myers. I think all of that is a huge factor, as the marketing creates brand awareness. But the brand LOYALTY (and thus longevity) is from everything else -- from the sympathetic Jason, to the music, to the tone and aesthetic, to the memorable kills -- aka, movies people enjoy, rewatch, and encourage friends to watch. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, NthnButAGoodTime said:

:oNo no no no! That's not what I meant! I'm just discussing possibilities.:sadchappa:

I don't think the mask did all the work!:JasonPt3: I feel like there was more that contributed beyond the pieces we've mentioned, but I don't have the whole puzzle in my head. I was just hoping for a discussion.:) This wasn't meant to be a pop-quiz, just a conversation starter. Before your ever saw a Friday the 13th movie, why did you know what they were and who Jason was? 

Because of descriptions in the TV guide that came with the weekend newspaper and because of "Mason" on Bobby's World. maxresdefault.jpg

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/10/2018 at 1:02 PM, NthnButAGoodTime said:

@Cokeyskunk, @JF13, I think the sympathetic killer could be part of it, but I don't think it's the whole picture. Terror Train, The Burning, and My Bloody Valentine follow the model of the killer having been wronged as the catalyst for the drive to kill, but they didn't really impact the culture. Plus, I would argue that the general population doesn't know Jason's backstory, but they who Jason is. Both of you had to have been drawn to the series, somehow, before you knew the backstory.

Perhaps it helps that I never saw any of those.  ?

Understand, though. This isn't about being "wronged" or "scorned." This is about an innocent child -- having been raised in 1950's America, which didn't like anything different or unusual in the first place -- tortured and abused throughout his life simply for being born the way he was. His mother -- an innocent herself -- loved him with all her heart. But society refused to let it alone, so it took him from her. 

To me, that's quite different from having a cheating spouse or somebody just being bullied.

To be honest, it truly was the backstory that drew me to the series. I didn't care for it until I knew the depth of the story. 

On 7/10/2018 at 1:02 PM, NthnButAGoodTime said:

I wonder if the simplicity of the mask contributed, too. The face-hugging mask had been standard hockey goaltender equipment for a while, prior to Part 3's release, but was no longer the only option as the helmet-cage combo was offering more protection and visibility. Kids would've had easy access to that style of mask to complete a homemade Jason Halloween costume. That still can't be all of it, can it?

Okay, I'll throw you a bone, here. Yes, I definitely think them trying to do 10+ films with a sack-head Jason wouldn't have worked nearly as well. The hockey mask definitely helped.

NOW -- that being said, had Michael Myers worn that hockey mask rather than his painted Shatner mask -- would many of the loyal F13  fans instead be loyal Halloween fans? (I'm not saying they have to be one or another. I'm just wondering how many F13 fans would place their affections solely on Halloween, had the masks been different?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even though i like the hockey mask alot,i like the story of Friday The 13th better.Halloween has it's own story,which i like also,so i am a fan of both fanchises.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Cokeyskunk said:

Perhaps it helps that I never saw any of those.  ?

Understand, though. This isn't about being "wronged" or "scorned." 

Fair. I guess the follow-up question would be, did you have access to or knowledge of those movies? If so, what prevented you from watching them?

To be clear the 'wronging' from the movies I cited were: tricked into canoodling with a cadaver, burned alive in a prank give wrong, and witnessing the brutal murder of a father and not wanting the town to hold celebrations on the anniversary of that date. I guess the later would be closest to Pamela and Jason's situation, and that one did at least get a remake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

   There was a bit of a competiton in the beginning between Halloween and Friday the 13th.
    Michael was creepy sure... but the William Shatner mask did not help with that. Halloween was suspenseful, but had little blood or gore with the first two movies... the third movie dropped the ball by not continuing the story of Michael.
    Friday the 13th gave us much more blood and gore than Halloween did, and let's face it... the people want to see blood.... and a bigger body count... And we got both, thanks to Jason's vengeful mother.
    Friday the 13th Part 2... That potato sack was creepy at the time for a reason. Does anyone remember what happened in Texarkana in 1946? A little movie in 1976 called The Town That Dreaded Sundown sure did remind us. Though this movie played loosely with the facts... The Phantom Killer wore a similar mask to Jason's potato sack... and he was never caught. For those that knew about this connection, it related Jason to a real life killer... at least for a time.... if only to people who knew about this.
    Friday the 13th Part3 had a gimmick that other movies of this genre lacked... 3D, which became very popular at the time... for a while. It also continued with the blood and gore, which Halloween lacked. Halloween 3 came out the same year and Friday 3. The disappointment of not having a continuation of Michael Myers storyline was made up for with Friday the 13th continuing Jason's storyline. The hockey mask was used instead of the potato sack to distance him from the Phantom Killer (I think this connection was unintentional in the first place)... and to save time for the long makeup process... among other reasons. Something about that mask... they managed to make forest dwelling hermit goalies look scary... this, and the lack of Michael in Halloween 3... made Jason even more memorable.
    There was already merchandizing for Friday the 13th at this point.... My parents hated the 3D poster that adorned my bedroom wall of Jason smashing through a window with his axe... BEST... POSTER... EVER.
    Part 4 came out the same year as the young upstart Freddy Kreuger's first movie... A Nightmare on Elm Street. Keeping the hockey mask... and continuing the tradition of blood, gore and ever more inventively brutal kills... I think by this point, Jason was already an icon. In the final chapter... Jason went out in a way non of us expected... and we still hoped for his return. Although Part 5 was alright, they did drop the ball just as Halloween did with their own part 3... But as I said, Jason was already an icon... and they brought him back in the next movie.... which also marked the comeback of another legend... Vincent Furnier… or as we all know him.... Alice Cooper... That's right, Alice is not his real name.
   Halloween remained behind by not bringing back Michael Myers for another movie until 1988... Although its popularity has never wavered either... And Jason was brought back to us with Part 6 even before this... in 1986. The upstart... Freddy Kreuger continued his own special reign of terror as well... eventually becoming as much of a horror icon as Jason and Michael.

   Although the other movie that @NthnButAGoodTime pictured in the opening post were... alright... Non could hold a candle to Friday the 13th, Halloween or (later on) A Nightmare on Elm Street (which is also pictured up top... but you noticeably forgot to include Halloween). Most of these were just something to hold us over until the next Friday movie... or next Halloween movie that all of us fans back then hoped for and looked forward to.
   Halloween, Friday the 13th and A Nightmare on Elm Street... these were the Unholy trinity of slasher movies. Horror fans like me eagerly awaited the reviews of Siskel and Ebert... If they hated these movies, then we were sure to love them. Their scathing reviews contributed more to the movies popularity than if they would have actually liked these movies. Movie critics will never learn.
    All 3 of these franchises endure... everyone knows who Freddy is... everyone knows who Michael is... and of course, everyone knows who Jason is. If the new Halloween movie is successful, The Friday the 13th rights holders may be dropping the ball here... We need... no... Jason needs another movie, which should have been done already. There was a movie due to be out in 2017... but it was scrapped. Rings flopped, making back less than half its budget... many have speculated that this was the reason for scrapping the new Friday the 13th movie... but with what we know now... it probably had more to do with the lawsuit.
   Perhaps another reason Jason remains popular... Halloween costumes. Out of the three top slashers... Freddy Kreuger... not many people could pull of a makeup job lie that and the masks don't do him justice… Michael Myers, well... the mask is William Shatner, and also, not really easy to find one on the spur of the moment. But that Hockey mask... I still see it in stores every Halloween. Let's face it... you may be able to order a Freddy or Michael Mask online... but kids are picky, and prone to change their minds at the last minute, and delivery can take weeks... so that hockey mask in the store, combined with the ease of doing the rest of Jason's own style of clothing will keep him a popular choice for kids in Halloweens to come for many years yet to come. I think I had at least 4 kids in Jason Voorhees costumes last Halloween, and see at least one or two every year. I cannot remember seeing a Michael Myers or Freddy Kreuger costume on a kid on Halloween. 

   Sorry for the length of the post... I had a lot to say on the subject... I had even more to add, but this post was getting long... and I think I got my most valid points across anyway.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Ahab said:

A really good and a really Long post.

Wow. I don´t think you'll get an better answer @NthnButAGoodTime.

But I have one Little peeve….

15 hours ago, Ahab said:

All 3 of these franchises endure... everyone knows who Freddy is... everyone knows who Michael is... and of course, everyone knows who Jason is.

That may have been in the old times….but today , People don´t know who they are….It´s really sad…….But if we would get something like a Friday the 13th movie…...then IT wouldn´t be the onliest Movie they'll remember. With some good Advertising thrown in....

Did I just care for today's Kids?...…..Maybe I am bit tired……………..Well , they don´t deserve to know the awesomeness anyways , so Maybe it is in a good spot Right.

But I have a Little Question Ahab. What would be the new Friday? A new Reboot? A Sequel to the Reboot? Something similar like Halloween H20? A continuation of Jason X or Freddy vs. Jason or just Part VIII?

Well , anyways , another reason would be the Name...

Like seriously , which one seemed more Attractive?

Friday the 13th                         or                 Chopping mall?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, The Wolf with that Toast said:

Like seriously , which one seems more Attractive?

Friday the 13th                         or                 Chopping mall?

I still want to see the movie that the poster for Chopping Mall seemed to advertise.

MPW-40218

I think one of the other big factors for Friday the 13th was that it essentially delivered on what it advertised. Each individual movie may not have lived up to audience expectations, but we got a new beginning in A New Beginning, we got Jason living again in Jason Lives, and we saw Jason go to Hell in... one of the other ones. 

Audiences for a Friday the 13th movie didn't have to temper their expectations based on a misleading marketing campaign...

friday_the_13th_part_8_1989_original_fil

...with some exceptions.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@The Wolf with that Toast You are right about kids today... many will not even watch a movie that was made before they were born. Its sad... they do not know what they are missing.
   There are incredible movies that are as old as the first movie camera itself... They look cheap today, but at the time it was new... no one had seen anything like it before. Without the tricks they used, we would have had nothing to build on... To try to "out do".
   I own silent movies... Lon Chaney Sr. truly was "The Man of a Thousand Faces." Black and white was all they had for a long time... the first color movies were incredibly expensive. Censorship was EXTREME... each movie right up to today is... or was... a product of its time. There are many movies from "the good old days" that are worth watching... Before my time, it was not about beauty, actors had to be able to actually act... and sing, and dance. Triple threats, as it where. There are good actors today, but they are few and far between. Actors are chosen mostly for their looks, not their talent.

   I do not know how the next Friday the 13th should go... I liked the reboot as much as I liked any of the other movies, although many seemed to dislike the reboot, I am not sure what they were really expecting.
   Rehashing the "same old, same old"... gets old... fast. Stories need "fresh", new angles to them. I have no idea how they could make Jason (or even Pamela) work in this day of cell phones that work in the middle of nowhere. Perhaps they need to keep the story to the 80's... Perhaps they could find a way to pull it off in today's world of having a call for help in your pocket. I would watch either, but it is hard to say which I would like more. Either could easily be butchered and leave the franchise in the dust.
   I am not against reboots... I am not against them continuing the story line of zombie Jason... But the cheese needs to be kept to a minimum. I would be curious to see how intricate the make up for him would be in either case. I do not think a sequel to the reboot would go over too well, many people did not like it... but I would not be against it. Putting the back of his head into a wood chipper was a big mistake for that one... even zombie Jason would have a hard time getting up from that... But he did get up from it, in the alternate ending.
   Rebooting from the beginning though... I don't think that would work. The 2009 movie had it right with that part... Show how it started, but do not focus the movie on Pamela's massacre at Crystal Lake... the fans want to see Jason, with his hockey mask... Starting him with the potato sack and finding the hockey mask worked too. What did not work was his tunnel system, this was their explanation of how he "popped" up out of no where. That is one thing they should not have tried to explain... The suspected supernatural aspect should have been there, or at least hinted to... just to explain the inevitable return of zombie Jason in later movies.

   Horror movies are not the types of movies that you expect to see good actors in these days... putting a big name actor in a horror movie like this would be a mistake anyway. Horror, particularly "slasher" movie are a genre with a small niche audience. They simply do not make the massive profits that a good action movie will make... or a good comedy... or a family movie. The reasons are simple. Everyone loves a good comedy... entire families go to family movies. Action movies are also a staple in the theater... most movie goers will go and see any of these types of movies and they can make huge money (I forgot to mention dramas... but I am aware of them)… but horror movies never had audiences of comparable sizes... and slasher movies had a lesser audience than just your run of the mill horror movie. They do not have big budgets, because they do not make big money, not compared to the blockbusters... So spending half of the movie's budget on actors that are box office draws is a huge mistake, and leads to a flop. With a horror, or slasher movie, it is not about Tom Cruise... or Brad Pitt... or Jennifer Lawrence… or Angelina Jolie... the only people going to see a movie like this are those that want to see the blood and gore... They are not going to see a specific actor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me what makes the character endure is that the character has a well established and sympathetic backstory. Sure he is a murderer but he doesn't kill just because, he has a well fleshed out reason why he does what he does and in a twisted way its sorta understandable. His mother went on her killing spree because she lost her only child because of negligence, Jason in turn started his killing spree because he saw his mother beheaded. Honestly I can sorta sympathize. They weren't evil people to begin with, its the trauma inflicted on them that turned them into monsters.

That to me is way more enduring and memorable, give me a tortured soul over a mad-dog killer any day.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because honestly Jason original backstory before the zombie storylines is that you could feel for Jason but also realize he is a already supernatural killer who doesn't give a F*** about anyone other than hid mom.

Jason was humanized and that was perfected even now it still is because you can feel bad for mother and for himself i mean 20+ years in the forest because counselors didn't do their jobs and then you finally find your way back and watch your mother die!? Now that's motivation and motives to do what you do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/13/2018 at 10:29 AM, NthnButAGoodTime said:

I

friday_the_13th_part_8_1989_original_fil

...with some exceptions.

Got that poster framed and hanging on my bedroom wall.It's one of my favorite Friday collectibles i have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well , I think I forgot to add why I love Jason. I love him also because he was the real victim and you can kinda relate to him (especially if you got bullied). And I also love his brute Kind. And much more. I think he defines the word ''Slasher''. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×