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FreakyFrank1

The importance of Jason being able to carry corpses.

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I would like to have your toughts on this subject.

 

When i first mentioned how it would be nice to have Jason have the ability to carry corpses,someone said it would not be a good idea because it would make Jason waste time.

 

I call bullshit on that remark,this concept will make the game even more interesting.

 

It doesnt matter weither Jason carry a body or not because is walking speed will not be affected at all anyway and if you dont want you can always leave the body where it is.

 

Think about what you could do with a corpse,you can hide it in a wardrobe to scare someone or make it more difficult for a player by limiting is hiding spot.

 

You can also throw a corpse trough a window or from a roof right at a player to scare them.

 

Think about all the possibilities.

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Sure, there are awesome gameplay possibilities for Jason carrying a body, that is without question. However, the tech side of this is monumental. You have to think about the ramifications of having this type of system in place. I'm not saying this is impossible (we've discussed this for months on end) it's just a big hurdle to overcome. Let's break this down so you get a better understanding of game design systems.

 

Let's just look at basics first.

 

1. We would have to motion capture Jason picking up a person and putting them on his shoulder, as well as walking, running, etc.

2. Can Jason swing his weapon while carrying? Or does he drop it first?

3. Can Jason use "Morph" while carrying a body, or does he drop it?

4. What if another player hits Jason with a weapon, say a bat, while Jason is carrying a body. Does he drop it?

5. What if Jason is carrying a body and sees an alive player? Can he grab them and perform a kill? Or does he drop the body?

6. What if Jason enters the water with a body? Does he keep carrying it while in the water? 

7. What if Jason wants to open a door (not by destroying, just basic open). He has his weapon in one hand, and a body over the other shoulder. How does he open the door?

 

Now let's discuss throwing the body.

 

There are "states" a model can be in. To keep it simple let's just say "Alive" and "Dead". Alive players are fully animated and they have hit boxes and marked with collision. Collision means they are a "real" asset where physics of the world are applied. You step on a log, you actually step up on it instead of your foot disappearing into the log. You run into a wall, you don't go through it. This is what "collision" means. However, when you are dead you are now in a "rag-doll" state. Joints aren't rigid on the model. The collision rules are a little different. What if someone dies in a doorway and their body is blocking the door? A different set of rules need to be applied so that you, the alive player, can still gain access. So you mark that scenario as "passable" or turn off collision. Or you leave collision on, and allow the player to push the body out of the way by walking forward. But arms and legs are rag doll on the dead body. They can "clip" into walls, door frames, etc, and get hung. Now you have world physics fighting with model physics. That's when you get CRAZY stuff happening. Bodies flying through the air. Players shot into outer space, etc. With that said, you might start to see the issues of allowing Jason to throw a body anywhere. The edge cases are endless due to player choice.

 

What if Jason throws the body into the boat? Now you have world physics, rag doll model physics and boat physics all conflicting in the same space. And then you, the alive player, try to add a part to the boat to fix it. Now you have asset physics (vehicle part) getting thrown into the mix. This would be a nightmare to work all the bugs out of. 

 

What if Jason throws a body through a window, but it doesn't clear the window. It just hangs in the window frame? Again, physics fighting against physics. You'll get bodies flipping out. Spinning, clipping, stretching, etc. You've all seen it in games before. Fallout comes to mind. But now, you have a body blocking a window. Can alive players use that window now? Probably not. 

 

This is just a teeny tiny sample of issues that come from this one feature. It's crazy how one little feature like that causes a snowball effect of issues/bugs, but it does. We've had hours and hours of meetings just about this topic. We've brainstormed, tested, failed, tested again...so on and so forth. We fear adding this one feature, will cause the overall immersion of the game to suffer dramatically. You'll spend more time laughing at the odd physics issues, and less time being scared. Tension vanishes the moment you see silly bugs like that.

 

-W

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I would like to have your toughts on this subject.

 

When i first mentioned how it would be nice to have Jason have the ability to carry corpses,someone said it would not be a good idea because it would make Jason waste time.

 

I call bullshit on that remark,this concept will make the game even more interesting.

 

It doesnt matter weither Jason carry a body or not because is walking speed will not be affected at all anyway and if you dont want you can always leave the body where it is.

 

Think about what you could do with a corpse,you can hide it in a wardrobe to scare someone or make it more difficult for a player by limiting is hiding spot.

 

You can also throw a corpse trough a window or from a roof right at a player to scare them.

 

Think about all the possibilities.

I agree that it would be insanely cool, however I think even if it doesnt waste time, most Jasons wouldnt use that feature because the time/reward trade off wouldnt be good.

 

Imagine you kill a counselor, then you pick him up. Then, assuming the teleport abilities cant be used when you are carrying someone, you walk to a cabin and store the corpse in a closet. It took about 1 minute, then you get back to your game.

 

For all this trouble, and a pretty big amount of time in a 20 minute game, you raise the fear level of the counselor that finds the body, and yoy dont even get to see the jump scare!!

 

It would be fun but is it worth the work that would go in that feature?

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I agree it would be cool but putting aside the physics and programming that was already desrcibed as difficult on the devs side of things Jason players will be wasting time going out of their way to place or stage a body I agree it would be could say if there a three counselors in a cabin and one goes outside and you kill that counselor then toss the body in to scare the remaining that's an exame of an opportunity being right there for Jaosn to use the body but going out of your way to lug a counselors body around until you find someone just to find a way to place it to scare them or stepping in front of them to just throat down it'd honestly just be faster to just attack a single counselor out on their own and kill them then find an elaborate way to use the body, the example I mentioned before with the multiple counselors together that'd be the only instance u would use a body because it would install a high fear level into both of them and allow easier tracking and killing but if I come across a single counselor I'm not going to worry about scaring them with a dead body I would just raise they're fear level but appearing in front of them with a teleport or etc then kill them

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@wes id like to answer those proposed questions and offer some possible tradeoffs,

1-considering you guys have done probably harder stuff in mocap,I dont think carrying a body capture would pose an issue, financially though, for the session and transfer and all, thats the issue.

2-Jason cannot swing weapon while carrying, body deops if weapon is swung.

3-cannot morph. Body must be dropped first...and wait..."MORPH"? Into what? Do you mean teleport or...?

4-Jason has 2 classes of weapon damage-light and heavy. If light(weak) weapons hit, body doesnt drop. Hit by heavy weapon, body drops.

5-body must be dropped before doing any grab kills.

6-I say if Jason enters the water, he will enter a dragging body animation. Once into the water the body will float for a few seconds and then sink. The body will be lost.

7-Jason drops body to open door (if) he has weapon in other hand.

As for body placement..I think instead of free launch or throw, there could be specific "place" areas where Jason would be presented an option to place body. This could be hanging in trees, doorways, against things, inside things(beds,showers,etc) that way its an option and placing it makes it become static.? There are only certain spots or zones specifically made for body drop/placement.

 

I say make it an option if possible. Let the Jason player play how he wants to play. If he wastes time and is ineffective...well you know what that will prob mean for him/her with Jason selection next time...

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Like CrazyRalph say,this should be something optional,if players dont want to do it they dont need to.

 

And like he proposed make animated sequence when Jason is presented a place where he can put a body,the same kind of thing like the killing animation but with Jason hiding a corpse instead,same for throwing a corpse trough a window,make it a prompt.

 

Once a body is placed in a spot,dont use ragdoll physics,make the corpse a solid object.

 

There are solutions to most of the problems you mentioned Wes,you just need to find the ones that will be best,i hope that in the future after the game release you guys will find a way to implement it.

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Like CrazyRalph say,this should be something optional,if players dont want to do it they dont need to.

 

And like he proposed make animated sequence when Jason is presented a place where he can put a body,the same kind of thing like the killing animation but with Jason hiding a corpse instead,same for throwing a corpse trough a window,make it a prompt.

 

Once a body is placed in a spot,dont use ragdoll physics,make the corpse a solid object.

 

There are solutions to most of the problems you mentioned Wes,you just need to find the ones that will be best,i hope that in the future after the game release you guys will find a way to implement it.

Throughout the series he was infamous for throwing bodies through the window as well as retrieving heads (once even from a NY alley dumpster) and placing them in cars. Such actions, if they were to occur in the game could serve to raise the counselors fear levels. 

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saying "here are some solutions do them give us the option" unless you work on the game or can make a game of the same level of complexability and still make it as fun as this game will be AND put in all of the super teeny tiny details and all the options of things you can do and interact with maybe don't tell them how to make their own game

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@Austin hey dude...we are offering SUGGESTIONS, not telling anyone how to do ANYTHING. Wes proposed questions. We answered. This is a forum, a chat. To say "Im not going to do this and that because the player might xyz" is not how it should be. If it will technically cause problems, I understand that. But give players the freedom to play how they want to play, IF something REASONABLE can be implemented.

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I don't think Wes was necessarily looking for answers to the questions cited. It was a objective way of looking at what goes into making a decision upon it. There are many considerations that go into implementing features and it was look at some factors that go into it.

 

Now here I am branching off into my own thoughts is this actually a mechanic important enough to warrant the cost of implementing? Why does Jason need to carry bodies? What is the purpose of this mechanic? There are many things that would be "cool" to implement but does it really add to the game in a positive way is the question you have to ask yourself. The treads title is the importance of this being in game. My own thoughts are that it's a novelty and not of any significant importance.

 

You are right however, this forum is for discussions so feel free to discuss but I just want to point out a few things based upon what has been written here.

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Ok in that regard, the importance of it could be for the Jason player. There was said to be traps that could be set for Jason. What about if this could be a way to "trap" counselors? Not only could it be a way to induce fear, but massive fear? Its been said that if in groups counselors can make each others fear go down and if alone fear climbs. Well...what if you placed a body and in that vicinity it caused all players fear level to spike? It could help stealthy low fear well playing counselors get located. They arent seen by Jason, they run into a body and bam, fear spike, Jason can see them. Also, Jason could use it to block entryways/exits. Place a body there, you think your going to escape that way? Nope. Just some functional reasons for body placing. It could be an automated action where once you happen on a body, it makes the counselor automatically scream aloud. That would signal Jason feom afar. Every Jason player is not going to be the best most elite killer, some can be better if they have the tools to perform better, this can just be another available tool for Jason players thats all Im saying.

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Valid point Ralph but seeing Jason alone spikes fear so I don't see how that would help in that regard. I am not saying anyone's ideas are bad or what not I was saying that I do not see those as a game changing feature. It would be a cool feature sure, but again the title of the topic makes it sound like its so dire of a need.

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No no...what Im saying pops is this..what if...a jason player has used all abilities..kinda sucks as Jason but is doing ok. They dont have any ability left at the moment. They are far away from counselors or cant find them due to hiding, whatever. But Jason has placed a body somewhere. That better counselor player runs into the body. It causes a scream, in that moment, the Jason at a distance could see the proximity of the scream and see the area. Kindve like the motion tracker in Aliens. Just to help in that moment.

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Ah OK I got you. That I can understand and is interesting enough. I do not know in detail what we can expect from a full match. There are things that are not being revealed. I guess it's a wait and see sort of thing. Beta is around the corner so we will see what lies in the wings.

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@Austin hey dude...we are offering SUGGESTIONS, not telling anyone how to do ANYTHING. Wes proposed questions. We answered. This is a forum, a chat. To say "Im not going to do this and that because the player might xyz" is not how it should be. If it will technically cause problems, I understand that. But give players the freedom to play how they want to play, IF something REASONABLE can be implemented.

My response sounded more aggressive than attended but I'm just saying the way it came across was kind of like "hey it's not that hard just do this" where as I think as people who don't work on the game we don't know everything they have to consider and implement and the challenges they face as developers especially since they are not a huge multi billion dollar company so I just feel offering suggestion like that should be left to them and also about what u said about Jason acting a body and a counselor finding it an screaming to alert Jason they can still implement that feature except just have it happen when ever a counselor finds a dead body so Jason wouldn't have to move it at all for that effect to happen and on the balance side of things using a dead body to block door ways would be entirely fair to the counselors because Jason could just carry a body with him always and if a counselor is trying to run last through a door he could just toss it down right before they get out of the door and they are blocked and I could see that becoming a problem like I said before the only time I would use a body is to install fear into a group if more than one counselor but honestly going out of their way to put this feature into the game would just be a waste of time money and resources because the reward of getting this feature in wouldn't be that big

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This is something I personally had hoped to see in the game. However, wes explained the challeneges and it sure sounds like something that is not currently able to be implemented given the time and budget. I'd rather see the game released without it if we had to wait months or even a week longer for the beta. Cause I am itching to play it that badly!!

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All good ideas..in fact, we've discussed all of these in great detail over the last year. We had this giant wish list of features that we wanted to put in the game. This is basically how every game starts out..you have a huge list of great ideas. Then you start cutting. It's the nature of the beast. It always comes down to time/money. Sometimes it's a technical hurdle. It could be overcome, but again, it would take more time and money to solve the problem. So then, as Jpops points out, you have to weigh it all out. Is it such a strong feature that you cut something else? You can't do it all, it's just not possible. Even giant games like GTA have to cut features back. It's painful as hell to do..it's my least favorite part about game design. It feels a little like writing a novel, and then having to cut chapters out. 

 

I was proposing these as questions..but more in part to get you thinking the way we do. But just to give you a little insight about costs. Before we even get to putting anything in the game, let's just look at Motion Capture. We could get this done in one day. So how much for one day? First we have to rent the space. Next we have to cater breakfast and lunch for the actors/stunt/crew. Next we have to pay the actors/stunt people. Then we have pay their SAG fees. Then we have to pay to actually get everyone to the studio. The best studios are in LA. We are not in LA. So hotels and flights for all. Once the shoot is over, you have to pay to get the data "cleaned up". Basically they cut out all the lead ins and outs during the shoot. They narrow it down to just the base, raw captured data. Then they pull the real time camera feed data. You know, all that footage we showed of Kane wearing the little balls, killing people. They match that with the raw data, and time code it. Then they send it to us for "selects". As there will be at least 5+ versions of each move, this way we select the one that looks the best. Once selected, then our animation team takes over.

 

OK, so how much is all of that, before we actually start animating? Around $50K. Then we have to pay our animation team to apply it to the rig. Then our engineers take over. Then you need an artist to create in-world prompts for where Jason can place a body. Then an engineer has to hook that up so that players can press a button, and it happen. 

 

Soup to nuts...to get all of that done, hooked up and debugged...3 months minimum. So like I said...we thought about this in great detail, just like we've thought about all the features in our game. So not having it in the game wasn't because we didn't think of it, or that we think it's a dumb idea. I think it's awesome. I thought it was awesome a year ago when we discussed it as a team. But something ends up on the cutting room floor. This was one of those. 

 

-W

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Wes!

Now that is clear he won't be able to carry or throw bodies!

 

but did you guys think about a "relocate / place bodies" button option where you can simply kill a player then select "take body option" then walk over to say the outhouse then click "place body option" point cursor to where you want it placed then click "drop"?

It would be the body disappearing then reappearing in the new place!

Is it that important? No! is it silly? Could be! But damn would be fun!

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Wes just stated it could be done.but it probably wont. Mainly due to money. Is it overall worth it to spend the money to add this feature? Prob not is the answer. We could get other rhings to allocate the funds to, rather than the body placement.

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Wes just stated it could be done.but it probably wont. Mainly due to money. Is it overall worth it to spend the money to add this feature? Prob not is the answer. We could get other rhings to allocate the funds to, rather than the body placement.

 

Yep, exactly. There's some things on the kickstarter stretch goal list that I'd like to get in the game. :)

 

-W

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Yep, exactly. There's some things on the kickstarter stretch goal list that I'd like to get in the game. :)

 

-W

What about my idea I just posted ^ seems like a simple solution but is it?

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What about my idea I just posted ^ seems like a simple solution but is it?

Honestly I think it'd kinda kill the vibe of the game to have someone picked up like inventory where u can't see them the have them dropped and apear out of no where

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Wes!

Now that is clear he won't be able to carry or throw bodies!

 

but did you guys think about a "relocate / place bodies" button option where you can simply kill a player then select "take body option" then walk over to say the outhouse then click "place body option" point cursor to where you want it placed then click "drop"?

It would be the body disappearing then reappearing in the new place!

Is it that important? No! is it silly? Could be! But damn would be fun!

 

"Take Body Option" - Selecting that does what? Where does the body go? 

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