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damnenchiladas

NHA Director Responds to Out of Context Quote

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2 minutes ago, damnenchiladas said:

I really wish they would concisder running a finishing fund on Kickstarter and hiring a mercenary crew to wrap everything up. I knownthey said their code would take time for a new group to figure out, but why not just factor that into the scheduling and cost? 

Its up to the fans to support it. So let us do that. 

Damn straight. And I think a lot of people would get behind that honestly. Some more begrudging than others, but people like to bitch regardless. That actually goes to the response I've seen a lot with "You're welcome you even have this game".

Unrelated though, I was looking at your costume design and gotta ask, in your film, how did you achieve the look of Jason's hands? Were those rubber gloves or just extensive makeup?

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8 minutes ago, OCT 31 1978 said:

Gun still has to pay its employees and Illfonic with that 30,000,000.00...

I know, I'm saying they net that, after expenses. 

They sold over 2 million copies plus DLC. They probably grossed $70-$80 million. 

@Brevator

No, they'd never keep 100% of sales. There's always parties getting paid. 

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5 minutes ago, Brevator said:

All of that was already paid for by the KickStarter campaign.

Game sales were 100% profit, which doesn't help to debunk the "Cash Grab" theory.

You do not know this for fact.

My guess was that they used the money from the KS as collateral to take out a business loan to which games sales went towards paying off.  

Not to metnion license holders taking their cut and the cost of overhead to run a business. That money disapears faster than you think. 

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6 minutes ago, Smitty_Voorhees said:

Mmm... I don't... think.... that's.... possible.... 

Okay, fine let's say 75%. I think @DasMurich's estimate of $70 - $80 million is probably accurate.

 

 

4 minutes ago, damnenchiladas said:

You do not know this for fact.

My guess was that they used the money from the KS as collateral to take out a business loan to which games sales went towards paying off.  

Not to metnion license holders taking their cut and the cost of overhead to run a business. That money disapears faster than you think. 

Fair enough, but it obviously hasn't disappeared yet, unlike the communication from Gun Media...

I'm well aware that license-holders take their cut, which is why I believe Sean Cunningham was so eager to hand them the license to begin with.

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6 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Damn straight. And I think a lot of people would get behind that honestly. Some more begrudging than others, but people like to bitch regardless. That actually goes to the response I've seen a lot with "You're welcome you even have this game".

Unrelated though, I was looking at your costume design and gotta ask, in your film, how did you achieve the look of Jason's hands? Were those rubber gloves or just extensive makeup?

Silicone “Crusty Gloves” from CFX  that were slightly modified. Our FX lead hated them but we needed something that could be used over and over again with our spread out schedule. 

We are actually building a GJ 2.0 costume from scratch, no more off the shelf products. This will be 100% original design. 

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3 minutes ago, Brevator said:

Okay, fine let's say 75%

 

 

Fair enough, but it obviously hasn't disappeared yet, unlike the communication from Gun Media...

THEY. DON'T. OWE. YOU. COMMUNICATION. Seriously, do you not understand that they are likely being legally gagged? Is this so hard to understand? These guys have been a million times more communicative than most game companies. Most of them don't directly speak to their players at all.

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1 minute ago, damnenchiladas said:

Silicone “Crusty Gloves” from CFX  that were slightly modified. Our FX lead hated them  but we needed something that could be used over and over again with our spread out schedule. 

 

We are actually building GJ 2.0 costume all from scratch, no more off the sheld products. This will be 100% original design. 

Thanks. I thought they looked pretty good, honestly. Some of those can look really bad or really obvious. I thought the effect was pretty spot on. Did you end up wearing any padding or anything to bulk up Jason? Don't know how tall you are. I thought your interpretation was buff and menacing but not 'roided out goofy looking either.

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1 minute ago, Big Daddy J said:

THEY. DON'T. OWE. YOU. COMMUNICATION. Seriously, do you not understand that they are likely being legally gagged? Is this so hard to understand? These guys have been a million times more communicative than most game companies. Most of them don't directly speak to their players at all.

Most don’t use pledge money to make their game. I think the ones that do definitely owe communication 

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7 minutes ago, Big Daddy J said:

THEY. DON'T. OWE. YOU. COMMUNICATION. Seriously, do you not understand that they are likely being legally gagged? Is this so hard to understand? These guys have been a million times more communicative than most game companies. Most of them don't directly speak to their players at all.

Yeah, again, I'd feel much better about it if this were coming from them, and not some rando who for whatever reason gets his jollies by sticking up for shady game devs, but I guess I'm just quirky in that way...

Also, I don't know what planet you're from, but here on Planet Earth, any company that sells a product owes their consumers communication. Especially a company that promised transparency and then over-delivered on that promise by basically performing a disappearing act after the game was released.

Developer Diaries, anyone?

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9 minutes ago, damnenchiladas said:

I agree. I have all the respect in the world for Victor but I also believe he knew what he was getting into. If they asked him in 1981 to write a sequel, he probably would have demanded more money or just flat out said no.

When he started writing he did that, like you stated, because the wheels were turning and things needed to get done. At the end of the day he was paid for his script, but now he is turning that favor of starting early into a play to win the case.

I do also believe the fate of the franchise rests in the hands of the story Victor ultimately created. Everything else that came after was fun, but none of it made any sense. The reason why NHA works is becuaee much of it’s inspiration came off of elements from Victor’s story. 

It wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world, after all this time, for Sean to let Victor in on the cash flow.

Sean was the one who took out the ad in variety, raised all the money, produced and directed the film, and basically took all the risk. 

Victor put in a lot of hard work to rip off Halloween without actually ripping off Halloween, but without Sean he would have never had the idea or chance to. 

That’s how I see it anyway.

 

Exactly right. Guaranteed Victor didn't believe F13 was going to be anything other than another MANNY'S ORPHANS, and was obviously content with accepting guild scale and if Sean went bankrupt, he would have never looked back. But he's had buyer's remorse ever since, and is exploiting a technicality and that's just too bad. But again, we'll see how the courts shake out because it might really shake up the indie field. 

I think NHA is a classic case of less is more. Atmosphere and suspense are used brilliantly, with a healthy respect for the mythology and that crescendo of tension that the best of the Fridays get right. (Honestly, if Platinum Dunes is still going to be involved one day, I hope they at least saw your film.)

I agree, too, that despite whoever might be right in this lawsuit, it really does feel like there's enough to go around. 

 

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15 minutes ago, Brevator said:

Okay, fine let's say 75%. I think @DasMurich's estimate of $70 - $80 million is probably accurate.

That's my gross estimate. I try to be really conservative with numbers if I'm speculating so $30,000,000.00 is only around like 37% they'd be walking away with? Even if you go lower to 20% that's still a pretty obscene number. I mean $20 million, c'mon.

The game I'm working on now, I know what it's taken to produce, I know our projections, I know what we're expecting to use towards another project. We're pitching 2 others to try and get enough going to where we're self sustaining but hopefully we can tap in to that with our first release.

And it's a lot less than what Gun likely had left to work with. 

I just have a hard time wrapping my head around this whole thing from a certain perspective.  

@damnenchiladas Really hope to see more from you btw. Never Hike Alone was a masterpiece as far as I'm concerned and did more for the lore of the franchise than some of the franchise.

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16 minutes ago, damnenchiladas said:

You do not know this for fact.

My guess was that they used the money from the KS as collateral to take out a business loan to which games sales went towards paying off.  

Not to metnion license holders taking their cut and the cost of overhead to run a business. That money disapears faster than you think. 

Can we please stop suggesting more kickstarters for these people?   I understand financing, licensing fees and overhead both as an attorney and a business owner myself.   But to suggest we should throw money at them to fix a shoddy product when we already purchased the product and others funded the project to begin with is a bit much. This game made them millions of dollars and I’m sure those profits are being funneled into the new game they are developing and not the game that made them the money to begin with. 

Enough is enough. 

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3 minutes ago, Brevator said:

Yeah, again, I'd feel much better about it if this were coming from them, and not some rando who for whatever reason gets his jollies by sticking up for shady game devs, but I guess I'm just quirky in that way...

They have posted already about not being able to say anything about the lawsuit.

what you want from them is more info to try to place blame as to why this wasn’t done or that wasn’t done and the developers don’t need that from some “rando” on their forum pushing some conspiracy theory to make themselves feel better.

but if constantly spewing your opinion heavy negativity is your thing you do you....

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1 minute ago, NScarlato said:

Can we please stop suggesting more kickstarters for these people?   I understand financing, licensing fees and overhead both as an attorney and a business owner myself.   But to suggest we should throw money at them to fix a shoddy product when we already purchased the product and others funded the project to begin with is a bit much. This game made them millions of dollars and I’m sure those profits are being funneled into the new game they are developing and not the game that made them the money to begin with. 

A game that they've already told us will not be getting any new content at all ever until the end of time, even if this gets resolved.

But what do I know? I'm just a crazy conspiracy theorist...

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Just now, Brevator said:

A game that they've already told us will not be getting any new content at all ever until the end of time, even if this gets resolved.

But what do I know? I'm just a crazy conspiracy theorist...

The suggestion for a second Kickstarter to fund big fixes astounds me.  It reminds me when I was managing a junior attorney who has bad work product.  He said he would do better work if he got a raise.  I fired him. 

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4 minutes ago, DasMurich said:

That's my gross estimate. I try to be really conservative with numbers if I'm speculating so $30,000,000.00 is only around like 37% they'd be walking away with? Even if you go lower to 20% that's still a pretty obscene number. I mean $20 million, c'mon.

The game I'm working on now, I know what it's taken to produce, I know our projections, I know what we're expecting to use towards another project. We're pitching 2 others to try and get enough going to where we're self sustaining but hopefully we can tap in to that with our first release.

And it's a lot less than what Gun likely had left to work with. 

I just have a hard time wrapping my head around this whole thing from a certain perspective.  

Gun media is a business if they weren’t trying to make money as well as a game they have no business being in business.

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4 minutes ago, OCT 31 1978 said:

Gun media is a business if they weren’t trying to make money as well as a game they have no business being in business.

Yeah it would be a dream job / passion project for me too to get to create a F13th video game and after a few years throw my hands up in the air after earning enough to retire on. 

Some people sound as though Gun is a non-profit making the game for fun. 

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7 minutes ago, Brevator said:

Okay, fine let's say 75%. I think @DasMurich's estimate of $70 - $80 million is probably accurate.
 

I'm not differing here just to differ, because I actually am interested in speculating how much they may have made. No doubt the final profits are what most people would consider a lot of money, but the distribution fee alone is probably pretty high. I don't know what PlayStation, Steam, and Microsoft take, but I know Apple takes a staggering 33% for apps. And then employees' wages, employment tax, and insurance, for each employee, for like 3 years. Probably some bonuses thrown in too after the initial success, no doubt, and possibly some raises.

And leasing their space. Plus utilities. And whatever production costs that were not covered by the initial Kickstarter (which have to be a lot that weren't accounted for or overshot that initial goal they hit). No doubt they had to take out business loans early on too, so there's that interest and payments. Also production costs for physical retail copies that eventually went out. 

And who knows if Manfredi, the voice actors, and the artists get royalties or not.

Then the minimum guarantee + royalties to Cunningham.

Then the best part -- federal, possibly state, and any applicable local business (city/county/state) taxes.  

Then the profit goes back into the company pool, but they can't just spend it all. Their revenue streams for this game dwindled for sure, so if they want to remain solvent, they need an operating budget. 

So they take this money and they create an operating budget for 2019, and it doesn't include a budget for F13. So if in 2019 they can suddenly get back to work on the game, where does the money come from?

It's not as simple as just deciding to spend the money and hiring/assigning everyone and whipping up new contracts and so forth. You have to write up the budget. So then when they get back to creating a budget for F13, they have to look at its revenue, not just how much they have in the bank. I'm sure they are saying they can't return to the game because if this goes on for a while -- which is what they expect --  the revenue of the game will no longer justify setting aside a budget for the following fiscal year.

Now, everyone is getting angry that they won't start even if it finishes this year, during the current budget. But that's not going to happen, so why are you getting angry about it? Just assume that if by some miracle that does happen, and it's still within their current budget, that they will, and leave it at that. Because guess what? The lawsuit won't be settled this year. Because even if there is a ruling, the other party will likely appeal. And if they don't appeal, their lawyers will haggle for months and months and months on terms moving forward. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, NScarlato said:

Yeah it would be a dream job / passion project for me too to get to create a F13th video game and after a few years throw my hands up in the air after earning enough to retire on. 

The American dream....

But since you aren’t Gun media bankers you have no idea whether this was as profitable as it seems to us we don’t know the expenses they have.

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I was out earlier and most brick-and-mortar stores are still selling physical copies for the $40 price tag. GameStop seems to be one of the few that have discounted it but they're probably just trying to unhaul their inventory because of their own financial issues.

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1 minute ago, OCT 31 1978 said:

The American dream....

But since you aren’t Gun media bankers you have no idea whether this was as profitable as it seems to us we don’t know the expenses the have.

And you don’t know that it wasn’t.  Even the $80 M top line of sales doesn’t account for DLC and sales after they stopped reporting.  They also made this money before the game was ever for sale under $40.  

Starting from nothing and needing a kickstarter to earning that much top lines mean you made some dough unless you are a terrible businessman. 

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17 minutes ago, OCT 31 1978 said:

Gun media is a business if they weren’t trying to make money as well as a game they have no business being in business.

I completely agree.

The thing is they ought to have gotten something else going. Something that would have helped in carrying Friday the 13th through this particular rough patch. An original unlicensed title. Just something. Friday the 13th raised the bar in what an asymmetric horror can be and they could have had the confidence of gamers on that alone in regards to something new.

Okay, actually, their inability to get the game functioning is a huge hurdle, obviously.

But I assume you get the point I'm making. Their success should have lent itself to their growth and expansion. I'm just looking at things from a creator/developer/business perspective and thinking what in the actual fuck.

And if this was actually a cash grab, well, hats off because that was successful. I'm talking evil genius hold the world hostage with a space laser for a ransom level of insidiousness. 

Point of reference we all love - Dead by Daylight. The game was funded with $1,000,000 from the CMF. Look at how they've managed, and now have Death Garden on it's way while Dead by Daylight is still going strong. This includes the $16,000,000 they spent to buy back the rights from Starbreeze.

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3 minutes ago, NScarlato said:

And you don’t know that it wasn’t.  Even the $80 M top line of sales doesn’t account for DLC and sales after they stopped reporting.  They also made this money before the game was ever for sale under $40.  

Starting from nothing and needing a kickstarter to earning that much top lines mean you made some dough unless you are a terrible businessman. 

Still, gross figures don't account for much if we don't know how much distribution fees are. I thought physical games were only about 50% revenue after markups? So a $40 physical disc sale in Gamespot would net them approx. $20 gross or so. 

I mean, still, a lot of money was flying around. Gross sales. 

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44 minutes ago, damnenchiladas said:

I really wish they would concisder running a finishing fund on Kickstarter and hiring a mercenary crew to wrap everything up. I knownthey said their code would take time for a new group to figure out, but why not just factor that into the scheduling and cost? 

Its up to the fans to support it. So let us do that. 

I'd be down for this.

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