Jump to content
Hugh D Paul

The Balance Between Jason Voorhees & The Camp Counselors

Recommended Posts

14 hours ago, GeneiJin said:

Yes, a entire Jason Kill-squad can be crushed if Jason just camps that box.  This isn't a bad thing.  As you stated, if Jason wanna just squat at that box then entire game, then everyone can work on objectives, escape, and Jason will go 0/7 ("But at least I didn't die as Jason", :rolleyes: lol).    People don't think of the Jason kill as an objective, but it is. Just like any other objective, being too invested on a single objective makes it easy for Jason to challenge it.  This is why I prefer only 1 (myself) or one other to dedicate themselves working on a Jason kill, while everyone else work on something else.  Ether Jason is challenging them to allowing me to do my work or Jason is pursuing me giving everyone else a chance to work on a escape.  The typical Kill-squad, if Tommy is call, just needs to bully Jason until the mask comes off, sweater and Tommy's spawn can happen ether before or after the demask, doesn't matter.  Usually though, if the Jason kill fails or Jason controls the Tommy call, these groups don't work on objectives until it's too late >:D.  By making Tommy's call more similar to fighting for the cops call, it won't prevent Kill-squads, but it will make them more creative on their approach and will be more fair (and fun) for both parties.

   Good points... and I have to agree. This could lead to some very interesting strategies for either side to be successful... and it can still go either way.

@The Wolf with that Toast I saw what the troll said... and the Great White North remembers. Don't feed the trolls Wolf... But I will say I am amazed there was no ban issued for that.

@Hugh D Paul I read through your edited post. I like it much better... and you describe the state of balance very well.
   I am glad to see people who can have their opinions change when they receive new (and valid) information. It sounds like you found some very good players to test your skills against. Testing and practicing your skills against the best players that you can find will teach you much and help to improve your own skills more than playing against noobs or players that just cannot play well, together or otherwise... But you will fall to their machinations now and again, such is the price we pay when we play against really frickin' good players.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Cer1alkill3r said:

And the big difference in the games we played is you knew we were going for the kill. If a Jason is playing unaware that the whole point of the match is the kill,they don’t survive. A team of two or three good players is too much for Jason.

Pretty much.  Since I am that kind of counselor, I assume every game I'm Jason that there is at least one Killer, let alone, Kill-Squads in the lobby.  Make the preparations to guard against a J-kill attempt every game, then by the time you realize a Jason Kill could be brewing, you are not in a compromised position.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, HuDawg said:

lol...

You play with newbie counselors.     ...  You also play against newbie Jasons.  (Jason is random).   

Newbie Jasons are the one that you're 'winning' against.   And good Jasons seem to get your panties in a bunch because they slaughter your ass.  

Buffing Jason is always a must.  Its to keep people like you in check.  Your complaining falls on mostly deaf ears because most people know exactly what this game is about.  

You whine about not being able to HIT Jason through doors for fuck sakes.   

Also the only thing i see hosts doing is picking counselors as their preference and then picking small maps.  That way they can find everything faster, beat on Jason quicker or kill him.  While praying Jason is a newbie and can be toyed with.

Face it Baby Cakes..  You're to high on yourself.   Theres tons of people like you who think they are awesome.. That when they do go up against a Jason player that knows what they are doing. End up blaming the game instead of just accepting their damn fate.

There is a difference between confidence and arrogance. I know I’m an EXTREMELY skilled counselor and I can fend off ANY Jason for most of the round. Although I won’t sit here and claim that I am the best ever or I’ll never die in the game. Most of the time when I do die it’s because of Jason teamers, they don’t get any XP from me anyways because I’ll quit the match if they are Jason teaming. I really do not care if I wind up in the salt mines because honestly I’ve moved on from F13, I’ll play DBD over F13 on most days.

Back onto the subject. She is just trolling, if she gets enjoyment out of beating noobs then so be it. You can be confident without being arrogant and she is just plain arrogant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since this is a Topic regarding balance, I'll list 3 balance changes I'd like to see to help Jason dealing with Kill-squads. These changes will do nothing to alter combat itself (which I'm afraid if the devs did, it may change or break things for the worse), but give Jason with additional tools to help even the playing field, and should be easy to implement into this game as already designed.

1) Give the location to the Tommy radio (or the powerbox it's gird is on) to Jason from the start, ether with a special icon or though a icon color variation.  This will allow Jason a chance to force counselors into completing the Tommy call like any other objective rather than getting it off for free as is 90% of the time in QP.  This wouldn't be unfair for counselors as Jason will take more time to get around to trapping the car or fuse, so counselors can push those earlier.

2) Give All Jasons 1 extra trap (Standard 6, -Trap 4, +Trap 8).  Giving Jason 1 extra trap helps all Jason more effectively protect escape objectives and the Jason kill.  As the balance is currently, Jason is already overwhelmed with objectives, one extra trap isn't going to disturb the balance much but give Jason a nice extra tool.

3) Increase all Jason's HP by 20-30%.  This will increase the need for a demasker counselor such as Adam or Bugzy.  Currently, it is easy enough to demask with lower strength counselors such as Vanessa or Chad with Machete's, and is pretty easy if they do this in a group.  Increasing the HP will make dedicated demaskers more desirable choice, while balancing out counselors with better luck stat whom can currently demask respectfully.  

I'll just throw in a tag @ShiftySamurai Please consider these changes and share with your developers.  As is, Jason is too easy to kill up against a skilled squad.  The single best change that will help Jason is the location of the Tommy Radio.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@GeneiJin  We have discussed many points around this game and I have come to respect your opinion. I have argued against extra traps before too. But just here to say I have to agree with everything you said in the above post as a whole. I hope the devs consider these choices as a whole... as I believe they would be most effective together, not any one individually... or even any two together. For what it is, together... this just might work to make the Jason kill more difficult.... and coming from THE Jason Killer himself... that speaks volumes in my opinion.

   I am still hoping they do something about that slowed block as well... I find it most annoying.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@GeneiJin As usual, I agree with everything you’re saying here. Those suggestions are on point, however alternatively, they wouldn’t even need to show Tommy house on the map if they simply removed RNG determining the spawn.

Radio tower could simply be set to always spawn at the same cabin per map variant. Then it would be just a matter of memorising that location / corresponding power box. This way not even UI changes would be required.

I also wouldn’t shy away from increasing Jason’s HP significantly more than just 20-30%. That is still too low IMO.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks @Ahab :D

2 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

@GeneiJin As usual, I agree with everything you’re saying here. Those suggestions are on point, however alternatively, they wouldn’t even need to show Tommy house on the map if they simply removed RNG determining the spawn.

Radio tower could simply be made to spawn at the same cabin per variant. Then it would be just a matter of memorising where that location is / corresponding power box. This way not even UI changes would be required.

I agree, players like you and I will capitalize if the Tommy Radio spawns by map variant such as the shack or fuse cabin, but for the more general or casual player will not be able to benefit from the simple removal of RNG.  While marking it on the map would be more straightforward for every Jason, I'd imagine it would be easier for the devs to remove the RNG than adding new icons or color variants, so I'm defiantly not against that ether.  As long as there is a way for Jason to locate that Radio quickly, I'll be in favor of that change.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, GeneiJin said:

Since this is a Topic regarding balance, I'll list 3 balance changes I'd like to see to help Jason dealing with Kill-squads. These changes will do nothing to alter combat itself (which I'm afraid if the devs did, it may change or break things for the worse), but give Jason with additional tools to help even the playing field, and should be easy to implement into this game as already designed.

1) Give the location to the Tommy radio (or the powerbox it's gird is on) to Jason from the start, ether with a special icon or though a icon color variation.  This will allow Jason a chance to force counselors into completing the Tommy call like any other objective rather than getting it off for free as is 90% of the time in QP.  This wouldn't be unfair for counselors as Jason will take more time to get around to trapping the car or fuse, so counselors can push those earlier.

2) Give All Jasons 1 extra trap (Standard 6, -Trap 4, +Trap 8).  Giving Jason 1 extra trap helps all Jason more effectively protect escape objectives and the Jason kill.  As the balance is currently, Jason is already overwhelmed with objectives, one extra trap isn't going to disturb the balance much but give Jason a nice extra tool.

3) Increase all Jason's HP by 20-30%.  This will increase the need for a demasker counselor such as Adam or Bugzy.  Currently, it is easy enough to demask with lower strength counselors such as Vanessa or Chad with Machete's, and is pretty easy if they do this in a group.  Increasing the HP will make dedicated demaskers more desirable choice, while balancing out counselors with better luck stat whom can currently demask respectfully.  

I'll just throw in a tag @ShiftySamurai Please consider these changes and share with your developers.  As is, Jason is too easy to kill up against a skilled squad.  The single best change that will help Jason is the location of the Tommy Radio.

Completely agree. Only thing I'd add is a bigger increase for the HP.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, GeneiJin said:

Since this is a Topic regarding balance, I'll list 3 balance changes I'd like to see to help Jason dealing with Kill-squads. These changes will do nothing to alter combat itself (which I'm afraid if the devs did, it may change or break things for the worse), but give Jason with additional tools to help even the playing field, and should be easy to implement into this game as already designed. 

1) Give the location to the Tommy radio (or the powerbox it's gird is on) to Jason from the start, ether with a special icon or though a icon color variation.  This will allow Jason a chance to force counselors into completing the Tommy call like any other objective rather than getting it off for free as is 90% of the time in QP.  This wouldn't be unfair for counselors as Jason will take more time to get around to trapping the car or fuse, so counselors can push those earlier.

2) Give All Jasons 1 extra trap (Standard 6, -Trap 4, +Trap 8).  Giving Jason 1 extra trap helps all Jason more effectively protect escape objectives and the Jason kill.  As the balance is currently, Jason is already overwhelmed with objectives, one extra trap isn't going to disturb the balance much but give Jason a nice extra tool.

3) Increase all Jason's HP by 20-30%.  This will increase the need for a demasker counselor such as Adam or Bugzy.  Currently, it is easy enough to demask with lower strength counselors such as Vanessa or Chad with Machete's, and is pretty easy if they do this in a group.  Increasing the HP will make dedicated demaskers more desirable choice, while balancing out counselors with better luck stat whom can currently demask respectfully.   

Yeah , really good suggestions. For the Tommy box , they could just do it bigger than the normal box , so that isn´t new Content and for the HP increase…..That is almost Nothing. Buggzy? Still 2 or 4 hits. At the Minimum , it should atleast be doubled.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, The Wolf with that Toast said:

Yeah , really good suggestions. For the Tommy box , they could just do it bigger than the normal box , so that isn´t new Content and for the HP increase…..That is almost Nothing. Buggzy? Still 2 or 4 hits. At the Minimum , it should atleast be doubled.

I think the mask should be a minimum of ten hits to knock it off. 2-4 hits is ridiculous, whether it’s Buggzy or any other counselor.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Hugh D Paul said:

I think the mask should be a minimum of ten hits to knock it off. 2-4 hits is ridiculous, whether it’s Buggzy or any other counselor.

Yes! Finally someone who understands what I am Talking About! I thought I was crazy , man , thanks!

But yeah you´re totally Right!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: the Tommy house. Always watch your opening cutscene, there are a few maps- Pinehurst, and both Higgins variations specifically, and I think CL- that will largely tip the Tommy box if you pay attention.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@GeneiJin No problem.

   I do have to agree with @thrawn3054 @The Wolf with that Toast and @Hugh D Paul The HP increase should be bigger. I think Hugh D Paul's suggestion of 10 hits minimum is better than a 20-30% raise in HP.... That could translate into only one more hit, which is not much of a difference.

@SDA We did discuss the "Occasional" appearance of the radio tower in the opening cutscenes earlier in the thread. Yes you can see it "sometimes", but it is not very common... and when you can see it there, it is a dead giveaway to attentive counselors as well. Does Jason go for the power box at the Tommy house first, or the fuse box? In this case, against good players, the cops may be called very quickly if he tries to stop Tommy from being called... and that is assuming he still gets the right power box. You have a better chance knowing which box to pick in this instance, but "sometimes" the closest box is not the right box... and if he goes for the fuse box first, chances are Tommy will be called immediately by a perceptive player making it a moot point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Ahab said:

We did discuss the "Occasional" appearance of the radio tower in the opening cutscenes earlier in the thread. Yes you can see it "sometimes", but it is not very common... and when you can see it there, it is a dead giveaway to attentive counselors as well. Does Jason go for the power box at the Tommy house first, or the fuse box? In this case, against good players, the cops may be called very quickly if he tries to stop Tommy from being called... and that is assuming he still gets the right power box. You have a better chance knowing which box to pick in this instance, but "sometimes" the closest box is not the right box... and if he goes for the fuse box first, chances are Tommy will be called immediately by a perceptive player making it a moot point.

Correct in regards to corresponding power boxes, Packanack is a perfect example off the top of my head. There is a variant where Tommy cabin can spawn right next to the north power box, so logically you would think that would be the box to take out - when in fact, the correct power box is all the way south below the lodge.

The intro scenes where radio tower can be seen are rare on virtually all maps but Higgins, where Evergreen has the highest chance of Tommy cabin spawn, based on the number of cabins that can spawn with radio tower in that area. I did a great deal of research on this topic, more than anyone I know or have spoken to about it - we are talking hundreds of screens and analysis on it. There are ways to narrow it down, and it’s still something I plan on releasing in my final guides.

Morphing to the phone box should always come after the Tommy box however, and you do have time for it considering that a base Morph has 30s cooldown, so if you immediately morph to the power box without even picking up shack knives, disable it and trap it, you will be able to prevent an early police call if you morph to the phone as soon as your cooldown is up. They will not be able to find the fuse, repair it and call all within 30s - not even the bots who spawn with the fuse can do this.

On the other hand, a counselor can spawn already inside the Tommy cabin and make the call immediately without requiring any looting or repairing. This is why power box is first priority.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Hugh D Paul said:

I think the mask should be a minimum of ten hits to knock it off.

That would be a ludicrous amount.  Bugzy will waste a machete in 3 swings, so 10 hit from him will require 3-4 machete, which that many not even be on the map.  The only viable option for damask would be Tommy (Max Strength + Luck) and he would still need 2 machetes and mob to back him up to get 10 hits in (unless the Jason is really that bad). I want Jason to have some protection to the Jason kill and not "scammed" how it can currently be, but I don't want Jason to be unkillable except the very worst.   Every Jason player should still be reasonably "killable" as long as he/she's been outplayed.  I low-balled the HP buff because IF they ever implemented it, I would like to see how it effects overall balance before adding any higher value. Besides, being demasked or having the sweater stolen isn't a big deal as long as the primary protection still in place, Tommy not called.  With that in mind, even the current HP wouldn't be that bad as long as blocking is restored to it's pre-engine update state (without being host) and Jason given both stun AND damage invincibility coming out of stuns,Pk/grab breaks, and kill animations, since they are currently exploited to get free and cheap damage off Jason.  If those are addressed, then perhaps no HP increase is needed.   Even in current build, against mobs with bats and Machete, I can still wither them down while maintaining my mask.  It's not easy and requires patients, knives, and smart uses of swing-shift canceling. 

41 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

Morphing to the phone box should always come after the Tommy box however, and you do have time for it considering that a base Morph has 30s cooldown, so if you immediately morph to the power box without even picking up shack knives, disable it and trap it, you will be able to prevent an early police call if you morph to the phone as soon as your cooldown is up. They will not be able to find the fuse, repair it and call all within 30s - not even the bots who spawn with the fuse can do this.

This is the Anti-Tommy Strategy I use and I can usually stop the call 2/3 times.  I do many offline games just to practice this.   As you stated. If Tommy is prevented consistently with the bot, good chance you'll have against humans.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

This is the Anti-Tommy Strategy I use and I can usually stop the call 2/3 times.  I do many offline games just to practice this.   As you stated. If Tommy is prevented consistently with the bot, good chance you'll have against humans.

Yeah, and taking out Tommy box is not only good to help prevent the kill, but also simply to prevent a super counselor coming into the match who can just run around instantly repairing objectives. It simply adds more pressure having a good Tommy in the match, but without him there, there is no fast counselor who can also repair in Jason’s face. If it is just a QP lobby I generally find they won’t even touch a trap at the power box, so he just never gets in the match at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've only been seeing very low leveled players around on PS4, while they do attempt to escape I still see the same behavior I've always observed. Most players die because they don't know how to play against Jason players who understand his mechanics and objectives and react appropriately. I say that that way because that's all it takes to be a "High level Jason" which I think in turn you meant "Skilled Jasons and Skilled counselors." (Level doesn't = skill, just experience.)

Jason users who fail to take precautionary measures to avoid the take over of counselors, like using all abilities (stalk is a powerful tool when used correctly) and realizing the group of people you'd be playing against, are at their own fault for their defeat. BLOCK attacks. Jason can block literally any melee weapon with ease. I have ran extensive test trials on this feature. The only time Jason stuns while blocking is when his mask is knocked off - and that takes a lot of hits when he's blocking. Block is also incredibly fast to trigger, it's almost instantaneous.

Not good with grabbing? Pair up with a slasher Jason and slash away! Find the Jason that best works for you if you're having complications. 

The statement will forever stand true though, Jason can't be everywhere at once. React accordingly if you are put into a position where you suspect counselors will attempt this (small maps!)

I feel that there can't be a perfect balance to this game, it's solely dependent on the skill of who is playing. Which can be fair or unfair, depending on how you want to look at it. However, Jason is by far superior to the counselors, in my honest opinion. (It speaks for itself)

I think the only way to really have anything remotely "fair" in terms of balance, is to implement a system that allows Lobby leaders to adjust item spawns and the like that caters to the current lobby. That way if it's a bunch of skilled players, they can adjust the item spawns lower or objective items farther away, or if it's a skilled Jason, they can toss in a few more items or make objective items spawn closer. Or have the lobby vote on a "difficulty" for Jason or Counselor that has to do with balancing factors.

Different maps also create different difficulty, for either Jason or the counselors, a very important factor in the balance as well. 

And... to balance a game off the presumption that most players will use communication (utmost role in teamwork), which in turn is what you see the opposite of in quick play, is kinda wacky, don't ya think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 5:44 PM, TiffanyCakes said:

It’s not the councilors that people are really be bitching about...it’s the skilled players who have been playing long enough to evade even the top tier Jason’s not plus we’ve played long enough to acquire epic and legendary perks...

 

its because use of the good councilors that’s Jason mains are always calling for some type of nerf.

 

its doesnt matter how much the nerfe the councilors the typical rebuttal will generally be..”Well Jason is supposed to feel over powered “

 

Never forget there is thread on this site where these assholes are calling for Councilors to not be able to regain stam after a hit .The butthurt is real.

 

“BUFF JASON PLZ”

uhhhh they have

-no more hitting Jason’s through doors

-they start ALL Jason’s off with knives now

-stalk mode now distorts the screen which confuses the councilor

-YOU CANT HEAR JASON LAY TRAPS MOST OF THE TIME.watch your step out of windows 

-you can’t hear his footsteps in stalk mode

-they took away a lot of the bats in the game two or 3 updates ago 

-thick skin was nerfed big time 

-they had also overall minimizes the health sprays before .

-if you’re At the front of the house you can’t hear Jason break down the back door for some reason ...but we can hear a councilor die on the other side of the map but okay whatever.

-THEY MADE JASONS SPEED FASTER.

 

All of those buffs and a lot of you still want Jason to be buffed lmao...it matters little now seeing that the game hasn’t about 4 to 6 months left and regardless of all the buffs ..good players like myself win.

 

 

its not Jason....it’s not the game...people just be need to learn how to play ..

1. No more hitting Jason through doors. They countered that in the same update with the worst grab animation yet, and took away the ability to body block. Jasons 1 line of defense from all the teamers. Thats what you call 1 step forward and 2 steps back. 2. All Jasons start with knives. Since every counselor runs medic and thick skin, do you realize how many knives it takes to kill 1 counselor? 2 med sprays with medic gives you 4 uses, right? Thick skin lets you get hit 3 times before you are hurt, right? so lets see, 3+3+3+3 just to use up the med sprays. An additional 3 knife hits to get you in hurt mode and 1 more to kill you. THATS 16 KNIVES LOL!!! Total advantage to Jason there lol 3. Stalk mode distorts screen, confusing counselors. Why on earth would Jason going into stalk mode be alerted to the counselor at all? Advantage counselor 4. you cant hear his footsteps when hes in stalk mode. When Jason is in stalk mode and he gets within 20 yards of your counselor, they will scream alerting you, making his stalk pointless. 5. They took away some bats. Since you can knock a counselor out of my hands with a pot, who cares how many bats are in the match? Since you can take my mask off with 2 hits from a machete, who cares how many bats are in a match? 6. Thick skin was nerfed. So you mean that getting hit by an AXE 10 times and it not kill you is what you want in a Friday The 13th game? Even with your so called nerf, its stupid how many times you can get hit with knives and axes and machetes. I guess in the end there is the counselor way of looking at things, and then there is the Jason way of looking at things. But either way this game is dead and it does not even matter in the slightest. On to playing some DBD. See you there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×