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Hugh D Paul

The Balance Between Jason Voorhees & The Camp Counselors

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@Cer1alkill3r Thanks for letting me join you guys! I had a great time even though I died. While I will admit that the counselors are overpowered as a group, Jason is still able to stop them as I did in the second round. However, I have changed my stance and believe that combat for Jason should be fixed. His mask is much too easily knocked off.

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I'd think they'd fall under balancing. But you're probably right, we'll likely never see changes. 

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3 minutes ago, thrawn3054 said:

I'd think they'd fall under balancing. But you're probably right, we'll likely never see changes. 

You would think, but the balancing issues between Jason and the Counselors go beyond simple fixes.  Jason needs one or two more skills to fend off coordinated groups of counselors going for the kill (something other than "just hide in the water").  Killing Jason should be difficult, not paint-by-numbers like it is currently.

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18 minutes ago, Hugh D Paul said:

@Cer1alkill3r Thanks for letting me join you guys! I had a great time even though I died. While I will admit that the counselors are overpowered as a group, Jason is still able to stop them as I did in the second round. However, I have changed my stance and believe that combat for Jason should be fixed. His mask is much too easily knocked off.

If you play as Jason long enough this is the conclusion you will draw.

The problem is as I stated earlier, the balance of the game is broken. It has nothing to do with making Jason more OP or weakening counselors. The entire game is flawed, and there is no amount of tweaking that will make it work. It was pretty close before the upgrade patch but it still swung wide in both directions depending on the situation. 

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5 hours ago, malloymk said:

Sounds like you guys killed him? Lol.

Yes we did. The first round we got him ready to die and then his controller died and the second round we killed him. The third round the game decided to fuck up and the fourth round he killed us. He did really good as savini Jason but when the mask comes off so easily there’s not much you can do. If you can get people to play as a team and not mess around then Jason will lose unless he gets to the radio house and protects it before you do. Thanks again @Hugh D Paul and like I said last night your more than welcome to play with us anytime. 

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Hot take here, but most of the balance issues would be fixed of you just couldn't kill Jason at all.

Game would be more fun too.

But that's just my take. I'm probably in the minority, but I find kill squads to be kinda boring.

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Just now, malloymk said:

Hot take here, but most of the balance issues would be fixed of you just couldn't kill Jason at all.

Game would be more fun too.

But that's just my take. I'm probably in the minority, but I find kill squads to be kinda boring.

Nope, you are def not in minority

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42 minutes ago, Hugh D Paul said:

@Cer1alkill3r Thanks for letting me join you guys! I had a great time even though I died. While I will admit that the counselors are overpowered as a group, Jason is still able to stop them as I did in the second round. However, I have changed my stance and believe that combat for Jason should be fixed. His mask is much too easily knocked off.

You should edit your Original Post and say at the Bottom that your opinion has changed and all that.

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17 hours ago, AdmiralJT said:

Councilors to not be able to regain stam after a hit 

This is one of the things that needs to be fixed, the way counselors use the tactic of jog out of Jason's reach, sprint when he gets close, jog again , repeat ad nauseum to troll and annoy Jason.

Stamina Regen should be more realistic to reflect being winded. Same for being wounded by Jason, because of the nature of such a physical trauma to the body drains energy.

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12 minutes ago, Redcat345 said:

This is one of the things that needs to be fixed, the way counselors use the tactic of jog out of Jason's reach, sprint when he gets close, jog again , repeat ad nauseum to troll and annoy Jason.

Stamina Regen should be more realistic to reflect being winded. Same for being wounded by Jason, because of the nature of such a physical trauma to the body drains energy.

I don't remember ever saying that. Where is that from, that doesn't look like my post because I know how to spell counselors.

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8 minutes ago, AdmiralJT said:

I don't remember ever saying that. Where is that from, that doesn't look like my post because I know how to spell counselors.

I had quoted from within a quote in your post. 

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7 minutes ago, Redcat345 said:

I had quoted from within a quote in your post. 

Ok well it looks like I said that and it has no context so someone will assume that that is my opinion and they will undoubtedly calle an asshole again.

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I think they should just remove the ability to kill Jason. It would make him instantly more dangerous. Like the films. He’s a killer that can never be stopped. You can only escape. Also, all the counselors would stop the bullshit they currently do just to kill Jason. 

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Actually, hes unkillable and stopped in every film. They should change how tommy spawns so he comes to the rescue when 1 female survivor remains. The reality is that there will be no gameplay tweaks because it would break the coding even worse than it is now.

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Removing killing Jason wouldn't stop people from turning him into a pinata and a troll fest.

If a group of 2-3 people can troll the fuck out of Jason by turning him into a pinata, the other 4-5 people can do whatever they want to get the cars going, the boat going, call the cops.  

I'm honestly surprised more people don't employ this strategy as if you have 2-3 good counselor combat players, even a great Jason player has zero ability to do anything to stop them. 

Trolling Jason isn't just to kill him although that certainly is a byproduct of it. 

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2 hours ago, SirMang said:

Removing killing Jason wouldn't stop people from turning him into a pinata and a troll fest.

If a group of 2-3 people can troll the fuck out of Jason by turning him into a pinata, the other 4-5 people can do whatever they want to get the cars going, the boat going, call the cops.  

I'm honestly surprised more people don't employ this strategy as if you have 2-3 good counselor combat players, even a great Jason player has zero ability to do anything to stop them. 

Trolling Jason isn't just to kill him although that certainly is a byproduct of it. 

I don’t think they should remove it, just make it a little harder.

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8 hours ago, JarMa13 said:

The issue is, players have gotten better.

Everyone knows shack locations.

Everyone knows how to use exploit shots to keep Jason down until his mask is off.

You don't need to take away medsprays

What you need to do is move the shacks once a month. To3 or 4 totally different locations every month. THAT IS THE CURE.

The only other thing you need to do is make it so Jason isn't ALWAYS stunned when hit. Don't lower it too much, just give him a chance that he won't be levelled by a baseball bat hit.

THATS ALL YOU NEED TO DO.

Yes, as players get better, it has become more difficult for Jason and easier for counselors, but Jason is still more powerful, you just need to take away the advantage of map familiarity.

THATS ALL YOU NEED TO DO

   Players have got better... and new and veteran players will get better as they continue to play... this is a given.
   Everyone but new players know the shack locations... but they will learn "soon".
   The double tap is the biggest culprit of Jason losing his mask so easily... this definitely needs to be addressed.
   There are a lot of med sprays in the game... even with the bug that has less on Crystal Lake and Packanack, I am still not having a problem finding them.... at all. Yet people continue to cry about it here. I still have not run into even one player in game that has even made mention of it, unless I ask if they noticed it. Most think I am joking.
   Where do you propose they move the shacks to? The maps are pretty small, even the big maps when it comes down to something like this. As it is on the small maps now, you can see the shack from pretty far away... there are just no other spots "off the beaten path" to move it to.
   I agree Jason should not be stunned so easily. Not lowering it too much can still be a problem. In one game I was stunned 4 times in a row with the mighty stick or as others call it... the Sacred Branch, which has a pretty low chance of stunning him. A sucker punch perk may have been involved... but that just goes to show you... not lowering it much will not do anything.
   Without the ability to add in new maps... it would be pretty hard to take away the advantage of map familiarity.

   This is definitely NOT all they need to do... but good point with the mask. Making it harder to get the mask off is the real key here. More HP is not enough as long as the double tap exploit is still in game. The wonky combat system does not help Jason at all... and getting into block was slowed in the last update just to make things a even worse. It should be harder to kill Jason... and so long as he does not go and hide in the water, it is pretty frickin' easy to do it. Removing shotgun and bear trap damage from contributing to mask removal might help... but only a little bit. We also need our meat shields back!

   Pinata Jason is the other problem (which also contributes greatly to the mask removal issue)... how to deal with groups beating on Jason without the ability to add anything "new" to the game. There are many who agree this is a problem... and many who claim it does not exist. Those claiming it does not exist are usually those people that are doing it. Tweaks to the combat system are probably all they can do with this now. It takes time to learn how to use the combat system, and there are those who will still bully the noobs... But if the combat system favored Jason more than counselors (as it should or he could in no way be considered over powered... which he is supposed to be), and issues with block are fixed... this problem could eventually be dealt with appropriately.

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Jason simply needs more HP (about double what he has now) and more frames of invincibility out of stun. 

Make it work like how the perks Friendship and Teamwork work. The more counselors around Jason, the more frames of invincibility Jason when he gets out of stun, that way it is still balanced for 1v1 scenarios. 

I don't mean the current stun invulnerability he has now, but actual frames of invincibility. With that done, you'll see a lot less Buggzys and Adams waiting for Jason to get out of stun so they can heavy attack him with a machete for a free demask.

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21 hours ago, Ahab said:

The good old "stop tommy from being called" strategy can and does work.... unless you have even one player that spawns next to the Tommy house and makes the call immediately. Many times I have found the right power box on my first attempt... then Tommy showed up. Upon returning to the box for the radio house, I often find it is still smashed. Someone will pretty much always spawn near the Tommy house... whether you can stop it at all depends on what that player does in the first 15 seconds of the match. As Jason, you do not know if Tommy has even been called until he shows up. I agree that it is still worth trying to stop the call... the lack of power also has the added bonus of building counselor's fear quicker... so it is still worth keeping the power out even if the call was made.

 

This is why I don't pick up the knives at the shack, I immediately go to the powerbox I feel has the highest chance of being on the Tommy cabin grid.  While there is no in-game indicator for Jason to know if Tommy was called, you can check the Tommy cabin has been looted or doors locked.  If you notice someone inside while cutting the power and not sure if Tommy was called, I'll kill or at least chase him/her out of the area.  Then after 2 players have been killed, if Tommy hasn't spawned after a minute, it safe to assume he wasn't call, then I'll morph back to that powerbox to trap it.  If counselors seem over-invested in that powerbox, that is also another give-away that Tommy hasn't been called.

21 hours ago, Ahab said:

Keep fighting the good fight... from both sides of play!

GGs last night.  How was it dealing with my Jason for a change?

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Its kind of a dead topic at this point. More to the point, with the amount of bugs this game has, they'll never be able to properly handle it.

There will always be people who think Jason needs to be nerfed and those that think counselors need to be nerfed.

People have left the game in droves. I think its fair to say both of sides of that argument can come into play as why people left the game among many many others. There were many who left because they felt Jason was and is still a joke and there are many who left because they think he's too strong/Dead By Daylight types.

Jason only has two methods of play. He's limited at best.

1. Rush/Attack/Trap along the way

2. Traps/Rush attack

He CANT NOT effectively be a stalker because...

1. Stalk comes too late

2. The timer works against him. Counselors that want to be lazy about it can simply wait him out in cabins, stun/loop him until he hits rage when he can actually start bringing down cabins faster, but by then the doors are down and counselors will just avoid taking any damage via perks for windows or juking him out the door.

Some of have mentioned the Jarvis radio. I've always felt it was kind of stupid Jason doesn't know where the radio is. The phone is out, he knows where the generators are, but not where the radio is. At least if he got the indicator on his map as to what generator powers the radio and where the radio is located. You would at least allow him the option of defending it against hunting parties if he chose that option.

Trying out quick play again recently. As Jason, throwing knives are a must. Which is why its even more frustrating that Pack small is so garbage overall and in this area and why so many trolls/counselor friendly players choose it. You don't necessarily need knives against slower counselors but against those that want to play the out of reach stun game, you need them.

I like to collect around 13 or so knives no matter which Jason I am, which means im not going to skip out on the knives in the shack. I'll cut a couple generators simply to go around and collect more knives first.

I find Shift/Grab a lot less potent with the new grab, even though it still works.

I usually go with in order...

1. Shift

2. Slash

3. Knife

4. Grab if close, if not slash more

This effectively at least forces the counselor to burn a spray which means they need to stop for a second and/or burn a pocket knife and/or turn around for the freebie stun chance since they swing through your swings. Its also unlikely they'll be able to juke the knife that close. Its not much if they have 4 sprays thanks to medic, but if you can effectively eat up one spray and/or a knife, its a killer since at that close range, they'll probably have one. The key is being patient with your knives. I find if you use up all your knives too quick, your fucked against the faster counselors especially. They are situational but potent. Part 6 and Roy in particular I find this useful right away since you don't have to collect them as much.

 

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1 hour ago, GeneiJin said:

This is why I don't pick up the knives at the shack, I immediately go to the powerbox I feel has the highest chance of being on the Tommy cabin grid.  While there is no in-game indicator for Jason to know if Tommy was called, you can check the Tommy cabin has been looted or doors locked.  If you notice someone inside while cutting the power and not sure if Tommy was called, I'll kill or at least chase him/her out of the area.  Then after 2 players have been killed, if Tommy hasn't spawned after a minute, it safe to assume he wasn't call, then I'll morph back to that powerbox to trap it.  If counselors seem over-invested in that powerbox, that is also another give-away that Tommy hasn't been called.

GGs last night.  How was it dealing with my Jason for a change?

   Good points... 
   I do have a nasty habit of always grabbing those knives in the shack. On small maps, you sometimes find one just outside the cabin as well... so I also have a habit of walking out of the shack before morphing, just to be sure. Just morphing away immediately can save 15 to 20 seconds. That can make all the difference with this strategy. I will give this a try, thanks... but first I have to curb the urge to grab those easily accessible knives! Some habits die hard, but I will try.

   You sure gave me a hell of a time when I was trying to get that power box fixed. I would have just ran and came back to it, but I didn't want to leave Nismo all alone over there. That was a very sneaky kill you got on me. I should have known better... but I was having fun. I did not even see if that box was for the Tommy house... I just had an urge to keep the power on. Even though I died early in that one, it was still a good game.

   I also noticed that you do not pop up under: "friends playing the game right now" on the steam page when you are in the game. That happens with at least one other friend as well... I don't know why that is, maybe it is because you both had Jin in your steam names. You show up on the invite list (so does she)... I will be sure to keep a better eye out for you in the future. I have not had enough friends on at one time to fill a lobby since that party dispersal bug invaded the game.... Before that, it seemed I could not go 5 minutes without someone sending me an invite or request to join into my group, which was full most of the time. I hope that bug gets squashed quickly.

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10 hours ago, The Milwauking Dead said:

I think they should just remove the ability to kill Jason. It would make him instantly more dangerous. Like the films. He’s a killer that can never be stopped. You can only escape. Also, all the counselors would stop the bullshit they currently do just to kill Jason. 

If the game was like the films then the last two counselors would always escape and Tommy would be unkillable. Jason was always defeated (sometimes died) in the movies. He was a killing machine up until the final one or two counselors when he became extremely clumsy. How many times did Chris knock Jason on his ass toward the end of the movie? Jason can be stopped and killed as seen in the movies.

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i mentioned it in another thread but i think they should make it that you cant get the sweater till there are only two people left. a female counselor and tommy.

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12 hours ago, Ahab said:

   Good points... 
   I do have a nasty habit of always grabbing those knives in the shack.

Trust me, I would rather have those knives, but it is MAX important to kill that powerbox if you can.  I play Jason with the assumption that there is at least one player like me looking for a opportunity to J-kill me.  Controlling that powerbox creates a death-trap for any would-be Jason hunter and even the entire group.  Same strategy that applies to FuseHouse, except the Tommy Radio many not be in the same cabin, which is even BETTER for Jason >:D.   Secure that box (or radio), then you can slug it out, not worrying about the mask, weapons, Pk, Meds until they scatter, then chase them individually as they scramble for a back-up plan.  Since I started Jason maining over the last 4 weeks, I've faced plenty of Kill-squads.  I've only been killed once, and this was against the squad I play with, TJK, during our PM (private matches).  Took them 5 Tries, but they got me on a game where I was AFK for the first minute <_< .   So naturally Tommy gets called and jeopardized my posture for that game.  Remaining "Invincible" is very important.

 

12 hours ago, Ahab said:

 You sure gave me a hell of a time when I was trying to get that power box fixed. I would have just ran and came back to it, but I didn't want to leave Nismo all alone over there. That was a very sneaky kill you got on me. I should have known better... but I was having fun. I did not even see if that box was for the Tommy house... I just had an urge to keep the power on. Even though I died early in that one, it was still a good game.

Haha, Yea, I wanted to get you in a clever way, because you're such a good player you'd immediately understood what I did, and respect my Jason.  Too bad it I was Jason for only one game.  Too bad I left on the boat on your Jason game with one of you're buddies because he needed help for an achievement (Bro, I had 2medsprays,PK, and a Machete, I was gunning for you and of course you knew,) LOL.   GGs again we should play more :D

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@GeneiJin Thanks.
   I was surprised you didn't come for me... I was able to keep my mask and only a couple shots got through on me... That slowed block is annoying, but always practicing to be able to work around it as much as possible. Was saving some knives for you too... you are always the biggest threat to Jason's unlife. The practice at combat with you is welcome anytime... win or lose.

   I will keep an eye out for you in game...

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