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Bans for standing on unreachable rocks

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5 minutes ago, AldermachXI said:

You have to find a way to stop the behavior. So even if the solution is a short ban, that play might come back and will have learned their lesson, if nothing else.

I think that's wildly optimistic.  I recently read a little witticism that went along the lines of "One thing that separates good from evil is evil's unending patience", and I think that applies here.  Folks looking to do nothing but troll and cause grief will wait as long as it takes to get their chance, and temporary bans only serve to refine their collective and individual determination, at least in my experience.

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20 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

why even encourage the cheaters with this mindest? Fk them. I rather play with 300 non cheaters than with 3000 cheaters.

Nobody is "encouraging" anything. Sorry you interpreted it that way. I'm just being real and stating facts. They did go back on Teaming. They have lifted bans on Cheaters & Exploiters. If that makes you mad, take it up with them cause I'm not the bad guy here.

17 minutes ago, AldermachXI said:

I get what you're saying, and I fully agree. The only thing I'd question is how these toxic players are effecting the playerbase by ruining the experience for others. You either ban one douche bag or lose a handful of players to other games because the douche is ruining the game for everyone else...

I'll admit it's likely not that drastic. But it could be if the trolling behavior starts to outweigh good sportsmanship - like when they removed TK'ing. You have to find a way to stop the behavior. So even if the solution is a short ban, that play might come back and will have learned their lesson, if nothing else.

I'd rather I didn't have to play QP with a bunch of D-Bags too but I've come to realize that in life, in this game, in this forum, we are gonna deal with people who's ultimate goal is to ruin your good time or my good time.

I've said, in this forum, that Teamers, Cheaters & Exploiters needed to be punished. I advocated for members to quit ragging on the Salt Mines until after they were implemented so we could at least know if they were gonna work (we now know that didn't work, right) and I've also said that the worst part of online multiplayer gaming are the "trolls". 

I'm glad you see my point (and agree) cause I really am just being realistic with my comments based on what I've seen happen.

The playerbase is low. Lower on PC than consoles and I'd attribute that to the amount of hacking and exploiting that can happen on PC as opposed to console. Banning players only further diminishes that playerbase and Gun Media probably doesn't like that. From a business standpoint, banning people is bad but from a player standpoint banning people would be great. Gun Media looks at it from a business's view, not a players.

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3 minutes ago, Bropollocreed79 said:

I think that's wildly optimistic.  I recently read a little witticism that went along the lines of "One thing that separates good from evil is evil's unending patience", and I think that applies here.  Folks looking to do nothing but troll and cause grief will wait as long as it takes to get their chance, and temporary bans only serve to refine their collective and individual determination, at least in my experience.

Then they should be permabaned in my opinion. No 3 strikes your out. You have one chance to redeem after first, you come back acting like a dick, you are permabanned (by ip and or console id) that way there is no way around it.

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10 minutes ago, jameson87 said:

Then they should be permabaned in my opinion. No 3 strikes your out. You have one chance to redeem after first, you come back acting like a dick, you are permabanned (by ip and or console id) that way there is no way around it.

Ok. Would your view change if I wrongly accused you of cheating/exploiting and you were banned permanently?

Hypothetically, let's just say me, you and six other people are playing. You, along with 3 other people are Vanessa and I mistake you as the rock exploiting Vanessa I can't get to. I record the footage and make sure to bring up the player list showing you are a Vanessa and my footage clearly shows a Vanessa cheating. Next thing you know...... You can't play. Is that fair?

Fact is, trolls are gonna find ways to troll. That's what they do. Same with cheaters.

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22 minutes ago, BrokenFattHardy said:

Same with cheaters.

Is it sad that the first thing that popped into my head was this guy:

ei5786R.jpg

And not this guy:

KsUj8lh.jpg

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8 hours ago, BrokenFattHardy said:

Ok. Would your view change if I wrongly accused you of cheating/exploiting and you were banned permanently?

Hypothetically, let's just say me, you and six other people are playing. You, along with 3 other people are Vanessa and I mistake you as the rock exploiting Vanessa I can't get to. I record the footage and make sure to bring up the player list showing you are a Vanessa and my footage clearly shows a Vanessa cheating. Next thing you know...... You can't play. Is that fair?

Fact is, trolls are gonna find ways to troll. That's what they do. Same with cheaters.

My only rebuttal to it is, generally the trolls and glitchers also send insulting and shitty messages when you call them out, so record that and roll it in with the footage and then there is proof. Not necessarily the easiest or best way to handle it. But since there is no kick, or in-game report feature to handle this on our side, this is really the only way I can see handling it. But again, we know their stance on actually enforcing the rules so I don't hold my breath. Therefore it should also be acceptable to shame them publicly in my opinion. Record and plaster their gamertag here and anywhere to handle them. Sometimes humiliation works wonders. Just my opinion of course and I do see your point as well.

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Just now, Bropollocreed79 said:

Is it sad that the first thing that popped into my head was this guy:

ei5786R.jpg

And not this guy:

KsUj8lh.jpg

It's times like this that I hate having a limited amount of emotes.

 

You're getting these, since I can't give them thru the official forum.....

???

?

?

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As much as I detest cheaters, there is no reason to ban anyone for climbing on rocks. No one should be banned unless everyone is banned for breaking the rules, and that includes rage quitters, who are in violation of the rule against repeatedly leaving live gameplay.

If the rules aren't going to be enforced for everyone (especially those that cause the biggest problem for console players) they should just remove the code of conduct and let it be a free for all. 

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7 hours ago, BrokenFattHardy said:

It's times like this that I hate having a limited amount of emotes.

 

You're getting these, since I can't give them thru the official forum.....

???

?

?

Either way, I don't expect them to do shit about it so my best bet is to just stick to offline anyways. Most people I ran with on private haven't touched the game in months anyways. Just expected Gun to do their job when it comes to enforcing their rules, and lost all hope on that after they released the assholes back into the fold.

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Just now, jameson87 said:

Either way, I don't expect them to do shit about it so my best bet is to just stick tp offline anyways. Most people I ran with on private haven't touched the game in months anyways. Just expected Gun to do their job when it comes to enforcing their rules, and lost all hope on that after they released the assholes baxk into the fold.

I'm not disagreeing, homie, and if my online group ever gains steam you'll have a place to "Name & Shame" any cheater you want (as long as you can prove it). ?

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1 minute ago, BrokenFattHardy said:

I'm not disagreeing, homie, and if my online group ever gains steam you'll have a place to "Name & Shame" any cheater you want (as long as you can prove it). ?

Awesome, and I clearly see your point that you made. It is what makes the topic so hard to deal with. And sadly, they show no interest in doing shit about it so they should just implement a vote to kick feature at this point, but we know that won't happen either as it would probably fall under the "new content" umbrella. ?

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1 minute ago, jameson87 said:

Awesome, and I clearly see your point that you made. It is what makes the topic so hard to deal with. And sadly, they show no interest in doing shit about it so they should just implement a vote to kick feature at this point, but we know that won't happen either as it would probably fall under the "new content" umbrella. ?

Everything that isn't "fixing stuff" is gonna fall under that reasoning. We should all know this by now.

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1 minute ago, BrokenFattHardy said:

Everything that isn't "fixing stuff" is gonna fall under that reasoning. We should all know this by now.

Touch´e

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4 hours ago, jahzaveamanaie said:

yall realize most people who glitch and "rage quit" midkill are laughing their asses off at how try hard you guys are and how serious you take the game right

none of them are pissed, they dont quit out of rage lol they just try to deny you the xp after noticing how salty you got from whatever they did. sometimes, they pull it off, and the rest of the lobby gets to see the biggest salt ever. its always good fun

 

as for banning people i disagree. you can easily just either put invisible walls around there, or teleport someone into a closeby area whenever they reach one of those unreachable spots. banning should be reserved to speed hackers godmodders all that kinda shit. not that i agree with going to these spots, its just banning takes a lot of time and resources and could easily be evaded by just fixing the areas themselves.

Honest, how did we as a society fall so far to the point where "try hard" is an insult? I will never ever take such a phrase as an insult nor use it as such. Those that "try hard" tend to succeed more often than those that do not put in effort. And if you've done your best and still lose at least you did your best. The fact is, when they rage quit, they ARE doing it out of rage. Because their little joke didn't work, it backfired. The idea was NOT to get caught and they did. And then they died like the little cheating bitches they are. How embarrassing it must be to cheat, hoping to get away with it and then to die like the rest. Sullying your name and credibility.

The "salt" you talk about is on the cheaters part that rage quit. If they don't possess the self control and maturity to face their own failures to the end of the match it shows just how upset (salty - I hate using that word) they really are.

Finally, I don't think it is "all in good fun." Unless you are in a group of players that want to cheat or fiddle with the game's mechanics, no one else wants cheater in the lobby. No one likes losing to someone that unfairly beat them. And they cheat for only two reasons: 1. To harass or bother the other players (pretty pitiful your life is so directionless and without meaning you have to fill the void with cheating); 2. To win - feeling inadequate and without worth enough to win without cheating. Either way, pitiful. Cheaters get punished in general, because no one that doesn't cheat (the FAR majority) doesn't think it is "all in good fun."

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3 minutes ago, Dr Zaius 007 said:

I don't get people anyway. Why would you want to cheat like this? There no shame in getting killed by Jason. 

Human beings, especially children but not limited to them, can be petty. There's something about getting under other people's skin that makes people fill with joy and while some do it to for an edge, most people just do it to be assholes.

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22 hours ago, Frumpy The Clown said:

Honest, how did we as a society fall so far to the point where "try hard" is an insult? I will never ever take such a phrase as an insult nor use it as such. Those that "try hard" tend to succeed more often than those that do not put in effort. And if you've done your best and still lose at least you did your best.

now youre talking about real life when i was talking about this game and games in particular.

nothings wrong with trying hard in real life, fully agree with you. i dont have a problem with people trying hard in videogames either- i was saying trolls love to see people try hard in videogames like their lives depend on getting that one kill in f13 the game.

im talking having played with several 500 hour playtime troll friends myself. a lot of people underestimate these guys or try to categorize them in some ways or others.

and people love to say "he ragequitted! i enforced justice! im the sherriff of f13 the game, im the batman of this community! i made him cry tears after his pitiful attempt of trolling and glitching!!". im saying, this is as far from the truth as you can go. pretty much all the trolls ive seen and played with usually just do what they do to enjoy the fact that you guys take the game so seriously and try so hard that you are willing to spend half the game following and tunneling these trolls to enforce your justice. then when they leave, they laugh their asses off.

its just an attempt at denying your xp after making you try hard to kill them in a videogame for glitching. 

22 hours ago, Frumpy The Clown said:

The fact is, when they rage quit, they ARE doing it out of rage. Because their little joke didn't work, it backfired. The idea was NOT to get caught and they did. And then they died like the little cheating bitches they are. How embarrassing it must be to cheat, hoping to get away with it and then to die like the rest. Sullying your name and credibility.

again, this is you acting like this is real life. its a game. these trolls dont give a fuck about their online reputation in a game community consisting of like 500 peak daily players. and their attempt isnt to joke, its EXACTLY to get that reaction from you. they WANT you to act like the policeman doing good for the online game community killing the big bad glitchers and trolls and making them cry. they have fun with the simple fact you actually believe all of this. i bet the dude who did the roof glitch is actually reading all of what you guys are saying and just laughing his/her ass off right now. your reactions are exactly what these people are looking for.

22 hours ago, Frumpy The Clown said:

Finally, I don't think it is "all in good fun." Unless you are in a group of players that want to cheat or fiddle with the game's mechanics, no one else wants cheater in the lobby. No one likes losing to someone that unfairly beat them. And they cheat for only two reasons: 1. To harass or bother the other players (pretty pitiful your life is so directionless and without meaning you have to fill the void with cheating); 2. To win - feeling inadequate and without worth enough to win without cheating. Either way, pitiful. Cheaters get punished in general, because no one that doesn't cheat (the FAR majority) doesn't think it is "all in good fun."

hell, im not even a troll and reading this is making me laugh right now.

"1. To harass or bother the other players (pretty pitiful your life is so directionless and without meaning you have to fill the void with cheating)"

like jesus dude you realize this is a game right? calm down LMFAO.

also, never said its all in good fun. i said its always good fun to see these people like you who take the game more serious than their real life rage hard like this after getting trolled easily by some random bored guy who felt like making people salty.

the number one to get rid of trolls is to get rid of all this seriousness. look at games that have communities filled with people who dont take the game as serious and then look at how many trolls those communities have. i made most of my troll friends by literally not giving a fuck that their trolling and having a good laugh when they actually do funny shit. its all a game man lol. if none of the f13 players were this serious, this game wouldnt be 1/8 as toxic as it is right now. we need to drop all of this shit and just have a laugh. this is the number one way to get rid of all the trolls because eventually they dont have anyone left to piss off and make salty.

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1 hour ago, jahzaveamanaie said:

now youre talking about real life when i was talking about this game and games in particular.

nothings wrong with trying hard in real life, fully agree with you. hell, i dont even  have much of a problem with people trying hard in videogames- i was saying trolls love to see people try hard in videogames like their lives depend on getting that one kill in f13 the game.

im talking having played with several 500 hour playtime troll friends myself. a lot of people underestimate these guys or try to categorize them in some ways or others.

and people love to say "he ragequitted! i enforced justice! im the sherriff of f13 the game, im the batman of this community! i made him cry tears after his pitiful attempt of trolling and glitching!!". im saying, this is as far from the truth as you can go. pretty much all the trolls ive seen and played with usually just do what they do to enjoy the fact that you guys take the game so seriously and try so hard that you are willing to spend half the game following and tunneling these trolls to enforce your justice. then when they leave, they laugh their asses off.

its just an attempt at denying your xp after making you try hard to kill them in a videogame for glitching. 

again, this is you acting like this is real life. its a game. these trolls dont give a fuck about their online reputation in a game community consisting of like 500 peak daily players. and their attempt isnt to joke, its EXACTLY to get that reaction from you. they WANT you to act like the policeman doing good for the online game community killing the big bad glitchers and trolls and making them cry. they have fun with the simple fact you actually believe all of this. i bet the dude who did the roof glitch is actually reading all of what you guys are saying and just laughing his/her ass off right now. your reactions are exactly what these people are looking for.

hell, im not even a troll and reading this is making me laugh right now.

"1. To harass or bother the other players (pretty pitiful your life is so directionless and without meaning you have to fill the void with cheating)"

like jesus dude you realize this is a game right? calm down LMFAO.

also, never said its all in good fun. i said its always good fun to see these people like you who take the game more serious than their real life rage hard like this after getting trolled easily by some random bored guy who felt like making people salty.

the number one to get rid of trolls is to get rid of all this seriousness. look at games that have communities filled with people who dont take the game as serious and then look at how many trolls those communities have. i made most of my troll friends by literally not giving a fuck that their trolling and having a good laugh when they actually do funny shit. its all a game man lol. if none of the f13 players were this serious, this game wouldnt be 1/8 as toxic as it is right now. we need to drop all of this shit and just have a laugh. this is the number one way to get rid of all the trolls because eventually they dont have anyone left to piss off and make salty.

I stand corrected. I misread your phrase about "good fun." However, my statement about making someone rage quit when they cheat is spot on accurate. Cheaters and trolls are very insecure in their lives. It stems from an internal or external impotence. They feel powerless so they utilize multiplayer video games to make others feel the same way. Instead of rising above and realizing their pathetic life is something they can change, they just cheat because they have nothing else. The funny thing is they don't realize it is just a vicious cycle of abuse. These same trolls and cheaters are the same kids that get shoved in lockers and thrown in dumpsters. They feel they can't stick up for themselves or make positive change in their real life so they simply unleash impotent rage in a multiplayer video game.

There is nothing wrong with trying hard in a video game either. A video game is about challenge and improving your skills at said video game. If you don't try hard in a video game, you don't improve and you just wasted your parents money. Real life or video game, trying hard is NOT a bad thing. It says a lot about certain groups that use the term "try hard" as an insult, in any instance. Cheaters and trolls don't enjoy seeing people "try hard." They enjoy hurting others for their own impotent gratification. No one rage quits because they are laughing too hard. Laughter is joy. No one runs from joy.

I agree they don't care about their "reputation." It is a side effect of feeling worthless. Amounting to nothing. If you feel you are nothing, if you feel you amount to nothing, you have nothing to lose. So why not hurt others? Why not hurt others because you are hurt? Because these cheaters and trolls are so socially inept they are unable to express their feelings and frustrations properly and getting the help they need.

No, trolls and cheaters are just one and the same. They change their tactics depending on how powerless they feel that day, but they are merely victims lashing out. Crying for help. Those of us that take screen shots of them are not sheriffs nor law bringers. We're just the civilized people that help to clean up the "worthless" from our video game. Just because the cheaters and trolls are victims at the start, does not justify their actions later on. A father beats his child, so the child grows up and beats their kid. It is sad the way the child grew up, but does not justify now beating their kid.

Every time I kill a cheater, I do feel good. I don't feel like a sheriff or Batman, I just feel good. Killing a cheater is tough and I did it without lowering myself to their level. I don't let them use me for their impotent rage. I am not the conduit for their emotional instability. They want to talk like a civilized person I will listen and help them. But if they want to ruin the fair and legitimate fun of other people, just to "watch the world burn" then I will stop them. I will report them and I will try hard each time to kill them. And when they rage quit I will feel good. Trolls and cheaters start the problem. It is the civilized people that put a stop to it. It isn't justice - justice suggestion someone significant and we all know those trolls and cheaters are not significant; not in their own eyes and certainly no in the eyes of their "victims." It is just punishment. If the little children want to break the rules, we take away their toys. If loser-cheater-trolls wants to lash out (which is the ONLY reason they do those things) then if we can, we punish them. We try hard to kill them. Take a screen shot and hopefully they get banned.

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10 hours ago, badassgixxer05 said:

Pretty sure that is up northeast on Crystal Lake. I had to watch an idiot emote dance for 10 minutes up on the rock, with Jason trying everything to get him.

Personally,  I just love to link the gamertag to the glitcher and troll them in game til they take their plague out of the lobby... it's kind of a hobby. 

I'll actually kill only that player and gleefully allow all others to exit if I'm jason in upcoming rounds... people follow suit rather quickly?

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4 minutes ago, VoorheesGt101 said:

Personally,  I just love to link the gamertag to the glitcher and troll them in game til they take their plague out of the lobby... it's kind of a hobby. 

I'll actually kill only that player and gleefully allow all others to exit if I'm jason in upcoming rounds... people follow suit rather quickly?

That is awesome.

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4 hours ago, Dr Zaius 007 said:

I don't get people anyway. Why would you want to cheat like this? There no shame in getting killed by Jason. 

Getting killed by a Jason who earned it is a death worth dying. Take that fire axe to the head or punch in the chest with pride.

4 hours ago, BrokenFattHardy said:

Human beings, especially children but not limited to them, can be petty. There's something about getting under other people's skin that makes people fill with joy and while some do it to for an edge, most people just do it to be assholes.

Pettiness is a learned  behavior. One has to have extremely thick skin to not get agitated by the nonsense in this game.

7 hours ago, BrokenFattHardy said:

I'd rather I didn't have to play QP with a bunch of D-Bags too but I've come to realize that in life, in this game, in this forum, we are gonna deal with people who's ultimate goal is to ruin your good time or my good time.

I feel the same way. Unless you have a large circle of regulars to play with, you don't have too many options.

6 hours ago, AdmiralJT said:

As much as I detest cheaters, there is no reason to ban anyone for climbing on rocks. No one should be banned unless everyone is banned for breaking the rules, and that includes rage quitters, who are in violation of the rule against repeatedly leaving live gameplay.

If the rules aren't going to be enforced for everyone (especially those that cause the biggest problem for console players) they should just remove the code of conduct and let it be a free for all. 

It should be all or none, but it is what is...

3 hours ago, jahzaveamanaie said:

the number one to get rid of trolls is to get rid of all this seriousness. look at games that have communities filled with people who dont take the game as serious and then look at how many trolls those communities have. i made most of my troll friends by literally not giving a fuck that their trolling and having a good laugh when they actually do funny shit. its all a game man lol. if none of the f13 players were this serious, this game wouldnt be 1/8 as toxic as it is right now. we need to drop all of this shit and just have a laugh. this is the number one way to get rid of all the trolls because eventually they dont have anyone left to piss off and make salty.

In my experiences with this particular game, I've run into a variety of players in Quick Play.

There are those who take the game very seriously, and play it as if they were in an actual movie. I find that bunch the most fun to play with.

There are those who live to hunt Jason down like a special forces unit. They are pretty decent at what they do.

There are those who take things personally when the game doesn't go the way they feel it should. I avoid the real negative ones of that bunch.

There are those who live for trolling, and to ruin the game for everyone else. I tend to counter troll them and run them from the lobby. If a troll can't have their fun, they'll move on.

For cheaters/exploiters, I've nothing to say. I'll let the match finish, then change lobbies. There's no hard feelings. I don't have time for it.

Serious or not, each player has a right to enjoy the game as they see fit, as long as it is within the rules.

59 minutes ago, Frumpy The Clown said:

Cheaters and trolls are very insecure in their lives. It stems from an internal or external impotence. They feel powerless so they utilize multiplayer video games to make others feel the same way.ot and hopefully they get banned.

Not all trolls feel "powerless". Some people exist just to ruin the fun of others. In a sense, that is their fun. There is a slight difference between cheaters and trolls. Cheaters use unfair advantages to win. That is their sense of fun. A troll intends to ruin your fun, period. That's how they get their kicks. A cheater will end up on rocks so that Jason cannot reach them. A troll will hide the objective parts to stop you from escaping. Neither is any better or worse than the other. Rather than make a fuss about them, I'll finish the match and change lobbies. I don't play Quick Play matches much anymore, as I have a decent bunch I play alongside of in Private matches.

7 minutes ago, VoorheesGt101 said:

Personally,  I just love to link the gamertag to the glitcher and troll them in game til they take their plague out of the lobby... it's kind of a hobby. 

I'll actually kill only that player and gleefully allow all others to exit if I'm jason in upcoming rounds... people follow suit rather quickly?

Nice counter troll tactic.

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I disagree on the differences of trolls and cheaters. A person who has their life in order has no desire to hurt others. It is two sides of the same coin. Cheating or trolling merely describes the methodology of the act.

"How can I hurt people today" the person may ask. "I can do an exploit that will make it impossible for Jason to grab me and net me some points." The person knows exploiting like that will take points away from Jason. They may even justify saying, "others have done it to me," but that just shows the cycle of abuse. The person knows the act is malicious and that is part of the reason they do it. Otherwise why not just play Jason Offline? Because the person isn't hurting anyone by playing Offline. Taking items and hiding them or hogging them - exact same goal, different target in mind. The person wants to hurt people anyway they can. The intent is malicious, the intent is to hurt others.

Now, these cheater-trolls are not murderers. They are just pitiful people that feel impotent and/or powerless in their lives. They feel they have or are nothing or no one. With that kind of mentality a person will suffer internally until the source of the issue is fixed (stand up for yourself at school/work; fix your finances, rekindle a relationship or break free of one). Now, we also have the choice to avoid confronting and fixing these problems. We have every resource available - drugs and alcohol abuse, over eating or video games. Besides combining all the above, let's just focus on the video game. Single player is just yourself but that leaves too much room for introspection and admittance of your failures and insecurities. Multiplayer allows you to affect other people, but since the source is impotent anger and frustration, you don't want to just vent steam, you want to make others feel your pain to some extent. You want others to suffer, to know what it is like to suffer like you. Mind you, a healthy person would chose to talk their issues out instead of taking them out someone undeserving.

Now, I've taken out steam and frustration as Jason and that is half the fun. But the difference is I don't feel empty or powerless in life. Which means, I feel in control enough to allow the margin of failure on Jason. I am okay with losing or some escaping. The cheater-troll HAS to accomplish their goal no matter the cost - whether it is exploiting to frustrate Jason or to hoard and hide objective parts to frustrate counselors. Because if they don't complete their goal, it is only another reminder of their weakness and failures. This then leads to the rage quit which is another form of avoiding problems. They could own up to their offense and apologize, but that would require humbling themselves, and they are much too fragile to do that.

In closing, the methodology is different yes, but the act is the same. A cheater-troll is just a petty and pitiful individual looking to hurt others. Their motivation is their inability to confront problems in life in a healthy and productive manner, instead, feeling impotent and powerless, taking out their frustrations and anger on other people no matter the cost. I understand you to say that trolls and cheaters are not only two separate types of acts in addition have their own unique motivations. They just are not. Cheating or trolling, they all stem from feeling powerless and impotent in life.

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What would be easier, banning a thousand people for climbing on rocks, or making the rocks unclimbable?

Cheaters suck but there is an easy way to stop them, the frustration and anger in this discussion seems misplaced.

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1 hour ago, AdmiralJT said:

What would be easier, banning a thousand people for climbing on rocks, or making the rocks unclimbable?

exactly my point. +1

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