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HuDawg

The current state of Jason vs Counselors

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8 minutes ago, lasse_hei said:

Well... Seems odd that most who like the current balance base their argument on qp and bad or disorganized players. You should judge the balance-factor on good Jason vs good group. If I play any game , lets say NHL, against a skilled or better player or team, I don't call out nerfs for Crosby because his wristshot is too op, or because the opponents team is co-ordinated.

Killing Jason? I haven't died yet, but the people I play with could have killed me lots of times. They are just too nice. They are content with just beating me up and having fun together.

 

I was purely speaking about good players..   bad player are just easy pickin'.

But really.. You can't nerf a REAL sports athlete.  But they do change the rules in the NHL.

 

Anyways i play on xbone..  :D

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1 hour ago, HuDawg said:

Well if no one works together...and plays like idiots.    Its not that bad...lol

But if you see a group of players moving together..   Its like Jason is going against the army in the movie 300.

This is the most spot-on description of the game in it's current state that I've seen.

I'm an average Jason player, and I enjoy playing both sides, but if there's any coordination between counselors in a match, I"m lucky to get more than two kills.  Stop the car?  Pinata party on Jason's face!  It's very difficult right now to fight off more than one counselor due to stuns.  

Any character below a 4 in strength should be unable to stun Jason.  Period.

When a counselor is in Jason's grasp and he gets hit with a melee weapon, it shouldn't be an automatic drop--it should be based on the stun chance for regular encounters, but halved.

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Ok @Truth so you are saying that good players are supposed to "suffer" against other good players because you want to cater the "bad ones" on quick play? If so, please elaborate.

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2 minutes ago, lasse_hei said:

I 100% disagree, but am willing to debate. In respecful manner ofcourse :)

Disagree that most people use quick play? Or my opinion that quick play should be where they base the balance?

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21 minutes ago, Truth said:

 

@dandop1984

*in quick play with stupid people

Guess I should've been more specific. I'm usually in quick play. When I'm Jason, I usually clear the lobby. When there are a few smarter players, it's more difficult. When one of them isn't Jason, I'm probably going to escape.

I haven't seen the hunting groups in months, but I'm sure they still exist. But that is the way it SHOULD work. Like I said, strength in numbers.

 

Yeah I hear you. The other day Tommy came back and just stared at me while I was telling him to repair the phone. I Dropped  the fuse right in front of him. Told him I’m low repair and he should do it. He actually ran away. After I died trying to repair, he was hiding under a bed the rest of the match. 

When I’m Jason I usually 8/8 but I know I’m a good Jason, and what I continue to see in quick play is people who can’t play Jason well, and more than half the lobby escapes or Jason rage quits. Then those very same Jason players dominate as counselor. Until I or another person on this forum wipes the lobby clean of course ?

Basically my point is, playing as a counselor is easy, and it’s even easier to get good at it because the fact we play counsellors 90% of the time. 

And Im not saying playing Jason should be easy, but it should be fun. And getting stunned by every AJ or Chad again and again is frustrating for alot of people. Yes I know how to deal with it as Jason, so don’t explain to me how to avoid it. I’m talking about the average lobby.

most bad players don’t fight Jason. That’s one of many reasons why they are bad. What the OP is asking for is mainly going to affect counselors who play aggressively and wanna fight Jason, like my self and many others, and as a counselor I’m totally okay with it that. 

Changes to Jason’s stun or chance of stun will have little effect on quick play, as bad players will continue to hide all game, or run in circles doing nothing.

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1 minute ago, Truth said:

Disagree that most people use quick play? Or my opinion that quick play should be where they base the balance?

The second one. If a qp player decides not to use a mic, not to work together, its his/her choice. You should not cater and encourage then further

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33 minutes ago, kohagan said:

I just dont think this game can ever get the right balance. All I've seen since playing from oct 17, is this seesaw of patches that is met by either joy or hate from either the counsellor or jason players. There's never a overall unified agreement that a patch is good for everyone.  If you tweak the grab again, most counsellor main players will lose their minds like they did over the pine Hurst patch. 

I don't think it's ever gonna be in a sweet spot, I'd love to be proven wrong. 

To me, I feel like its as easy as the devs need to stop being cowards and decide what the game is going to be.

1. A game where Jason gets the shit beaten out of him and killed often, with all the pressure on him and none on the counselors

Or

2. A game where Jason wipes most of the lobby and only a handful escape...with all the pressure on the counselors and very little on Jason

The dancing in between is NOT a good idea.

I remember before launch the devs were gloating about how it was so hard to kill Jason...something like 1 in 75 matches. I bet its way higher than that now and I've seen it enough myself to see its nowhere near that now and they would lie about it too I bet in order to create a false narrative. I saw Jason hunting parties routinely whether I was Jason or Counselor. It only takes two.

Objectively speaking...

Jason Pros

+ Shift

+ Shift Grab

Jason Cons

- Can be killed

- Can be stunned on the regular

- Can't actually be a camper/stalker because the time limit favors counselors, they know this so sit in cabins and do nothing, thus Stalk becomes an irrelevant power for Jason

- Jason has to be the aggressor, because the timer is against him...whether he traps and rushes in or rushes in, then traps...its his only methods

- Woefully inferior in melee combat

Counselor Pros

+ Medic

+ Thick Skin

+ Swift Attacker

+ Hypochondriac

+ Cars

+ Boat

+ Police

+ Melee

+ Can Kill Jason

+ Can stun Jason

+ Don't suffer effects when Jason actually lands a melee, they can just keep swinging

+ Can tank Jasons traps, no matter which kind of Jason

+ Time Limit

Counselor Cons

- Teamers

- Rubber banding

- Med Spray glitch right now

- Counselors hoarding items

Its so obvious which side the curb is for.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, dandop1984 said:

And Im not saying playing Jason should be easy, but it should be fun.

I completely agree. I didn't come here because I disagree with @HuDawg. Some of those points are completely true. I agree with some of the suggestions. I'm here as an opposing view, to try and show the other side of the argument.

7 minutes ago, dandop1984 said:

I’m talking about the average lobby.

2 minutes ago, lasse_hei said:

The second one. If a qp player decides not to use a mic, not to work together, its his/her choice. You should not cater and encourage then further

It has nothing to do with mics or even ability. It's about the average experience. The average experience is in quick play, where the majority of us choose to play. That is where the game needs to be balanced. If they had some sort of level based matchmaking, it would be different. I'm not trying to buff counselors or anything, I just want the balance to stop changing. It's at a decent place now and just needs some minor tweaks.

When there is a average/good Jason, the game is harder for the newer players. Easier when Jason is newer. We are so mixed in quick play that every match is different. In private matches, things go pretty much the same way. They're mostly high level experienced players that know what they're doing. THAT is why it's so much harder to play as Jason. Because you're grouping up with people that have the same experience you do. I enjoy a struggle as Jason, but I understand the stun issues:

34 minutes ago, Truth said:

I've said before (prepatch) that Jason needs a few frames after stuns where he is invulnerable. Not enough to grab and kill someone, just enough to morph/shift away. The group is only a problem if you let them stay in a group around you. Get away and try to pick them off one by one. Grab is slow and could be sped up a bit, but not too much. It could also be expanded slightly. Haven't had to use block enough lately to really know how fucked it is, but I believe you. I've already made my opinion of the sprays clear.

 

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13 hours ago, HuDawg said:

Balancing a game is like a teeter totter. If all the weight is on one side.. The teeter totter doesn't teeter.   Nerfing is just remove the weight from one side.

To me nerf isn't or buff isn't a bad word.   Its just a part of balancing.

 

 

Ah I see, that's where we're getting our lines crossed. First I don't include fixes in my thinking of weight being removed, so for example door combat was a fix, not weight. Actually continuing to use your analogy will back me into a corner, so I'm going to skip that, and go right to what I want to say instead.

 Groups of counselors are OP, full disclosure I'd actually make them tougher by changing perks, this would be balanced by changing Jason. They're OP, good or bad that's dependent on what you see develop in the future. Your trying to balance the game in the here and now, I respect the shit out of that and your effort. But I want to balance the game by expanding it into new places, so some of your balance ideas end up going the wrong way, in my opinion. Back to your analogy for just a second. You see weight being shifted, I see it as not only adding weight but changing the length of the levers. 

Jason isn't powerful enough to deal with groups, how can he be improved, without reducing stun time or nerfing the counselors. This is a hard question, been thinking about it since I chatted with @Alkavian yesterday. This is what I've come up with so far.

 

First, when your in the menu for you Jason, you can interact with the strengths and weaknesses like buttons. This makes me think that in the code there may be a way to change them. If there is I would suggest allowing the player to either upgrade the strengths and weakness of their Jason's either by spending CP for a temporary or permanent buff, or by unlocking them by preforming specific actions or kill combos in game. Here's an example my Jason has + grip strength, if I preform two environmental kills during a match it upgrades so I can take a melee (guns still work) hit without dropping a counselor. Example two, - Shift is used to grab two counselors (regardless if they break free) it upgrades too regular shift. Jason becomes a more unpredictable force, and the counselors may actually need to be buffed just to keep balance. 

 

Second, As Jason maybe there could be a way to get 'power ups' during a match. This idea isn't as well developed as the first, I've only had twelve hours or so and most of that I was asleep so bare with me. Locations around the map can be made to appear different when Jason uses sense, counselors don't see it, these areas let him do things like reduce the recharge on Shift or Morph. The shack for example could give Jason a free Morph when he sees the shrine. A few spots in the woods, twenty foot circles give him a free Shift or instant recharge, they can randomly spawn across the map making it less predictable. The Stalk points from single player challenges can be added and give Jason away to avoid being spotted/marked or appearing on the mini map. Other points could buff specific strengths and weaknesses, if Jason stays in them for a short time or activates them with a prompt. 

Edit - I think it should appear as glowing mist or fog covering the ground in the area of effect. This lets Jason know where to be to get the most benefit.

 

Third, give Jason the ability to activate Traps that are added to the maps. Go in the barn after Jason has been there and you may end up hanging from the rafters. Walk onto the dock for the front support columns to give way dumping you in the water. Hide in an outhouse only for it to tip over on the door trapping you (thanks puzzle Jason). Let Jason tie a chain to the axel of the car. Oh and for good measure add kills using both the battery and gas. Let's encourage those trolls to drop them when they see Jason, add a level of extra risk to being caught with one.

The other way this could work is by giving him upgrades to his existing traps, you collect broken glass from garbage cans or scraps of metal from the boathouse/garage. This idea needs work. But you can see there are ways to improve Jason without subtracting anything from the game.

Edit Two - I moved this comment to the suggestions section, here is a link if you have something to add.

Trying to keep it tidy.

http://forum.f13game.com/topic/19789-windows-buffs-for-counselors-jason-upgrades/

 

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59 minutes ago, Sir Jack said:

I love the "I've never been killed" ones.

Apparently organized teams of 5-6 individuals, who get sure one of them spawns as Jarvis and then fetch the sweater in groups of three or more, are no problem for them.

It's funny, because I've got the game since october and I've NEVER seen such geniuses. On the contrary, I've seen plenty of Jasons hiding in the water like pussies as soon as they lose the mask. If that's what you mean by "surviving", well hell yeah, even my grandma could do that.

THe truth is, Jason is HOPELESS against a well organized team, unless they fuck up.

+1 i will tell a little story  i was on packanack small, i was Lachappa i was killed then became Tommy then, a vanessa player has the sweater so i decided to unmask him so i did have unmasked him in two machete hit in one fight. And here i see Jason morphing on the small island next to the lake, waiting for us to cross the lake.

So we escaped these kind of player are hopeless but once Jason is unmasked he is more vulnerable than counselors themself.

 

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How about removing jason's combat stance, for one it looks a bit silly, jason doesn't do stance and it's awkward. Secondly, it makes it quicker to block incoming, if you just had a block button. 

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1 minute ago, kohagan said:

How about removing jason's combat stance, for one it looks a bit silly, jason doesn't do stance and it's awkward. Secondly, it makes it quicker to block incoming, if you just had a block button. 

I would be fine with this too. Jason should be blocking whenever he's using a power, they both use that button, so just take out combat stance. It would make combat more intense. Don't allow an instant block grab though, that just gives it too much power, a slight delay would be good.

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9 minutes ago, kohagan said:

How about removing jason's combat stance, for one it looks a bit silly, jason doesn't do stance and it's awkward. Secondly, it makes it quicker to block incoming, if you just had a block button. 

4 minutes ago, Slasher_Clone said:

I would be fine with this too. Jason should be blocking whenever he's using a power, they both use that button, so just take out combat stance. It would make combat more intense. Don't allow an instant block grab though, that just gives it too much power, a slight delay would be good.

That actually does sound good... It would really fix a lot of issues people have... I hate using combat stance because it feels so clunky.

I'm sure there's a good reason to keep it though.

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43 minutes ago, Truth said:

I base it on that because most players use quick play. If the balance seems fine there (which I feel it is), then they should leave it.

QP is favoured for Jason if you have even one dumb player. They will literally run around with gas or a battery or the fuse. When I am Jason and see this, I assume they have the fuse and save them for last, and in most cases, they do. If you're a good Jason, QP is still what it always has been, (besides in December) and that is a field day for Jason.

The problem is even 150s are pretty standard with Jason. Window looping is ended by one correct guess or two if they have a pocket knife, baiting swings is easy until they fix quick block. The thing is, Jasons never want to adapt, they want things to be even.more free because they are bad and don't want to spend the time to get better.

On to the OP: Weapons already got double nerfed between Man-At-Arms becoming even more useless and wrenches getting nerfed to the same durability as bats and axes. Honestly at this point, just start counselors off injured and start Jason with Rage lol. I understand that private matches exist, but I imagine the game is more balanced around the QP side of things. While Jasons new grab sucks out in the open, shift grabbing has become much easier due to the range on the lunge, so you can actually shift grab running counselors without going in front of them and doing a 180.

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I feel the game is relativity balanced in QP.  Not fun at all for Jason in a private lobby of all 150s but that’s probably a small portion of the player base. 

If anyrhing I’d suggest smaller changes targeting stamina regen systems that impact Vanessa, the one counselor mentioned over and over again about being unbearable. 

For example, weapon hits and knife stamina regen should be a flat amount (not a percentage) that allows repair counselors some chance at survival but doesn’t overpower Vanessa who disproportionately benefits from these systems in their current state.  

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47 minutes ago, tyrant666 said:

To me, I feel like its as easy as the devs need to stop being cowards and decide what the game is going to be.

1. A game where Jason gets the shit beaten out of him and killed often, with all the pressure on him and none on the counselors

Or

2. A game where Jason wipes most of the lobby and only a handful escape...with all the pressure on the counselors and very little on Jason

The dancing in between is NOT a good idea.

I remember before launch the devs were gloating about how it was so hard to kill Jason...something like 1 in 75 matches. I bet its way higher than that now and I've seen it enough myself to see its nowhere near that now and they would lie about it too I bet in order to create a false narrative. I saw Jason hunting parties routinely whether I was Jason or Counselor. It only takes two.

Objectively speaking...

Jason Pros

+ Shift

+ Shift Grab

Jason Cons

- Can be killed

- Can be stunned on the regular

- Can't actually be a camper/stalker because the time limit favors counselors, they know this so sit in cabins and do nothing, thus Stalk becomes an irrelevant power for Jason

- Jason has to be the aggressor, because the timer is against him...whether he traps and rushes in or rushes in, then traps...its his only methods

- Woefully inferior in melee combat

Counselor Pros

+ Medic

+ Thick Skin

+ Swift Attacker

+ Hypochondriac

+ Cars

+ Boat

+ Police

+ Melee

+ Can Kill Jason

+ Can stun Jason

+ Don't suffer effects when Jason actually lands a melee, they can just keep swinging

+ Can tank Jasons traps, no matter which kind of Jason

+ Time Limit

Counselor Cons

- Teamers

- Rubber banding

- Med Spray glitch right now

- Counselors hoarding items

Its so obvious which side the curb is for.

 

 

To Jason cons, I'd add: no visible damage meter.

Is your counselor hurt? Maybe, maybe not... but you can tell, because the counselor is bloody, limping, etc.

Is your Jason about to lose his mask? WHO KNOWS?!? One round, you have people beat on you for minutes on end with no movement, then the next round, it comes off with two pan shots. 

Jason's damage and mask hp should be metered like counselors, with damage that becomes apparent, and mask hp similar to the counselors stamina meter, refilling if Jason avoids combat for a minute or two.

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18 minutes ago, NScarlato said:

I feel the game is relativity balanced in QP.  Not fun at all for Jason in a private lobby

It doesn't matter.  QP is the same a private lobby. As in it depends on whos in there.

 

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Just now, HuDawg said:

It doesn't matter.  QP is the same a private lobby. As in it depends on whos in there.

 

No it’s not.  There are a lot more low level people in QP.  There are a lot less mics in QP.  There is a lot more uncoordinated selfish behavior in QP. 

QP is easy mode for Jason 90% of the time. 

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9 minutes ago, NScarlato said:

No it’s not.  There are a lot more low level people in QP.  There are a lot less mics in QP.  There is a lot more uncoordinated selfish behavior in QP. 

QP is easy mode for Jason 90% of the time. 

This false^

I always land in lobbies filled with friends who are 100+ levels.. And they are also in party chat.  And then put their choice as counselors only.  

QP is a lottery.    And as far this topic goes.  Im not speaking about BAD players.. 

As i said in my second post in this topic.  Bad players in QP are easy.  Against a group working together its like going as against an army from the movie 300.

Saying well.. QP lobbies are filled with idiots is not the point.   Sure, in those lobbies none of what im saying even matters.

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10 minutes ago, NScarlato said:

No it’s not.  There are a lot more low level people in QP.  There are a lot less mics in QP.  There is a lot more uncoordinated selfish behavior in QP. 

QP is easy mode for Jason 90% of the time. 

 

12 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

It doesn't matter.  QP is the same a private lobby. As in it depends on whos in there.

 

QP is a mix bags, but it does matter who's there.  Sometime I come in to QP with a bunch of friends, many times the 7 of us.  If the random gets Jason, its essentially a private match with a Jason that doesn't know what he's in for.  

It is easy to Kill Jason now, but I argue it was never hard, lol.  Maybe the average players have caught on, thus more killing squads are common, but I've been Solo hunting in QP since December with great success by coaching the random Tommy.  

Jason new fixed grab is a issue.  While the grabs radius has improve, the recover is just too long.  Especially in groups it too easy to punish and recover should be reduced.  Perhaps also Jason's swing should be looked at to better deal with groups.  I suggest also reducing recovery of the swing, and even adding a 2 hit combo, with the second hit having a large recovery to balance it out.

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13 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

 

QP is a mix bags, but it does matter who's there.  Sometime I come in to QP with a bunch of friends, many times the 7 of us.  If the random gets Jason, its essentially a private match with a Jason that doesn't know what he's in for.  

It is easy to Kill Jason now, but I argue it was never hard, lol.  Maybe the average players have caught on, thus more killing squads are common, but I've been Solo hunting in QP since December with great success by coaching the random Tommy.  

Jason new fixed grab is a issue.  While the grabs radius has improve, the recover is just too long.  Especially in groups it too easy to punish and recover should be reduced.  Perhaps also Jason's swing should be looked at to better deal with groups.  I suggest also reducing recovery of the swing, and even adding a 2 hit combo, with the second hit having a large recovery to balance it out.

Groups of 7 friends in one QP lobby is rare.  Why are 7 of you going into QP? 

Anyway if I was the one person I'd leave and get put into a group of randoms that I'm put in most of the time.

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3 minutes ago, NScarlato said:

Groups of 7 friends in one QP lobby is rare.  Why are 7 of you going into QP?

Because we couldn't find a 8th person, lol.

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1 minute ago, GeneiJin said:

Because we couldn't find a 8th person, lol.

Either way situations like this are highly unusual in QP.  And it's all too easy to find randoms in QP just by leaving the 1 time this happens.

If you are consistently having problems as Jason in QP, it really is the Jason player and not the game.

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2 hours ago, dandop1984 said:

I agree with practically everything.

I really like Jason’s new grab, but agree that counselors should be just as vulnerable after a melee swing.

And very little difference between Jason’s with a stun weakness and stun strength. Practically every Jason gets knocked on his ass.

Also didn’t melee swings use up stamina before? Now I can keep swinging with no stamina drain. The description of the strength stat says “less cost of Stamina points “ They gotta bring this back. Low strength counselors would think twice before fighting 

Hitting jason restores anywhere from 1/3rd to 1/2 stamina on the counselor. So yeah, even IF it ate up some stamina, the fact that they hit Jason gives it right back. Often, the tactic is to run to near exhaustion, then smack Jason for free stamina.

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1 minute ago, NScarlato said:

Either way situations like this are highly unusual in QP.  And it's all too easy to find randoms in QP just by leaving the 1 time this happens.

If you are consistently having problems as Jason in QP, it really is the Jason player and not the game.

As I go into qp matches several times a day with 4-7 in a group, it's not highly unusual.

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