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HuDawg

The current state of Jason vs Counselors

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10 minutes ago, Bropollocreed79 said:

 

Playing Jason shouldn't require some intricate knowledge of game mechanics or impeccable timing.  It should feel like driving a tank over a protester.

Almost blew out my Mountain Dew reading that last line....ūüėā

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20 minutes ago, CPLhicks31 said:

Okay... But its not as if Jason does not have the abilities to deal with gangs. He does. Whether the player controlling Jason can use them to effectively deal with groups is another issue entirely.

Show me video of you effectively dealing with good counselors with pocket knives/med perks that are beating you silly..  Without you being stunned silly for 5-10 mins.   (Which is the issue, the constant stunning)

 

Med sprays with a 5-10 second heal time would not be 'tedious'..  Just don't heal infront of Jason...  Jump in a cabin?

As far a SPIN MOVE goes..  I think that would be kind of silly looking. I mean, hes not a Diablo 2 Barbarian.

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2 minutes ago, Alkavian said:

Almost blew out my Mountain Dew reading that last line....ūüėā

I went through about six or seven different analogies and landed on that one.  There was something about a steamroller and a pile of marshmallows, but this seemed more appropriate.

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15 minutes ago, Bropollocreed79 said:

Playing Jason shouldn't require some intricate knowledge of game mechanics or impeccable timing.  It should feel like driving a tank over a protester.

Now that's a really good way of putting it.  

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1 hour ago, Ker Juice said:

You know what would be pretty cool?  If and only when Jason is in Rage Mode, he receives a prompt to push furniture aside or destroy it.  Maybe flip over a table or kick chairs away and if it makes contact with the counselors, they stumble.  

Of course the game would need to be fully polished  before this could even be a thing.

I think the devs said he would make the game crash or something like that.

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On 6/6/2018 at 8:59 AM, Sir Jack said:

I love the "I've never been killed" ones.

Apparently organized teams of 5-6 individuals, who get sure one of them spawns as Jarvis and then fetch the sweater in groups of three or more, are no problem for them.

It's funny, because I've got the game since october and I've NEVER seen such geniuses. On the contrary, I've seen plenty of Jasons hiding in the water like pussies as soon as they lose the mask. If that's what you mean by "surviving", well hell yeah, even my grandma could do that.

THe truth is, Jason is HOPELESS against a well organized team, unless they fuck up.

Some of the ones who “never get killed don’t even own or play the game.... this is a true statement sadly.

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On 6/7/2018 at 11:16 AM, HuDawg said:

Hitting Jason isn't that hard tho.  So i fail to see how its earning anything.  Considering 90% of every hit on Jason is a stun regardless of weapon choice or counselor choice..  And every stun has Jason standing there for 5-10 seconds.   (And healing takes only a second)    So when you add in a few more counselors to the mix.  This is when it becomes a issue.  It turns into a cycle of non stop stunning.   I just don't see this as a visually fun experience.. and its also frustrating to players playing as Jason.

It goes from.. JASON RUN!! ... To Jason..  whooop his ass! ( And this sort of ruins the buzz)

Theres plenty of people in this topic that are basically saying the same thing im saying.. Even saying its happening to them.

Its not like im just making this shit up.  

 

All of your posts are spot on... Jason is again joke, everyone exploits his pathetic grab.. when you miss(which is allot) it‚Äôs pretty much a free stun , they hear you whiff, turn around and whack... you are on your ass, people who argue with you are counselor mains and people who don‚Äôt own the game‚ÄĚbut watch it‚ÄĚ

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2 hours ago, Bropollocreed79 said:

To be fair, if were the other way around, it'd be a gang of teenagers beating up on a handicapped kid.

Regardless, the game isn't much fun as a counselor when you can have a Jason Pinata party requiring absolutely no skill or effort other than gang-tactics where everyone simply surrounds Jason and chain stuns him into oblivion.  Counter tactics?  So you get lucky with timing coming out of a block as Jason and land a slash;   Congratulations! You just got stunned by Lachappa hitting you with a sock full of wet turds!

Grab someone?  Here comes Deborah to accost you with a foam pool noodle! Now you've dropped your prey and you're vulnerable to being stunned by Chad, brandishing balloon full of the tears of poor people!  Now you're laid out in the road and everyone is dancing over you.

Playing Jason shouldn't require some intricate knowledge of game mechanics or impeccable timing.  It should feel like driving a tank over a protester.

I'd recommend just morph and stalk shift. Or just stalk. Rinse and repeat.

I believe that extreme changes that fix crowd control but create tedious ripple affects for either side should be avoided. Focusing on fair changes that help fix an issue without creating other issues.

Playing Jason only requires intricate knowledge in that situation, which does not come up as often as claimed.

Dont get me wrong though. I am all for a tactic that helps Jason deal with groups. I would welcome that to his ability-set, but requiring counsellors to build a stun meter to get one succesful stun, or tripling the heal time is not the answer to gangbangs.

Its one thing to improve jasons ability with groups. Lets make that happen.

Its another thing to just whine about the game being too hard for Jason and suggest changes that screw over all non Jason fanboys with match long repercussions

Solutions and suggestions are good, but sensible non bias solutions.

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55 minutes ago, CPLhicks31 said:

I'd recommend just morph and stalk shift. Or just stalk. Rinse and repeat.

They are attacking Jason..like a  Salmon in a fish tank full of Piranhas .   There isn't much room to morph...or shift.  (Not that shift would matter)   Stalk sure won't do anything and trying to Morph would just get you smacked.

 

55 minutes ago, CPLhicks31 said:

 

Its another thing to just whine about the game being too hard for Jason

Solutions and suggestions are good, but sensible non bias solutions.

I agree..  Thats why i made this topic.  

Whining doesn't solve anything...  And everything i posted is pretty sensible and would only alter 'silly' looking counselor game play that results in Jason getting stunned constantly in group combat.

Like i said.. In my 1st post.  This is coming from a COUNSELOR PERSPECTIVE. 

 

My only BIAS is wanting Jason to be a constant threat.  Which just so happens to effects both my JASON and COUNSELOR game play.

If Jason was basically killing all counselors with ease in 5 mins.. Id be calling for game play changes to help BUFF counselor instead. 

So in that case.. Im always BIAS.   No matter which side of the fence that bias.

 

I guess im BI BIAS.  Caz i swing both ways when it comes to F13th the game

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1 hour ago, CPLhicks31 said:

I'd recommend just morph and stalk shift. Or just stalk. Rinse and repeat.

I believe that extreme changes that fix crowd control but create tedious ripple affects for either side should be avoided. Focusing on fair changes that help fix an issue without creating other issues.

Playing Jason only requires intricate knowledge in that situation, which does not come up as often as claimed.

Dont get me wrong though. I am all for a tactic that helps Jason deal with groups. I would welcome that to his ability-set, but requiring counsellors to build a stun meter to get one succesful stun, or tripling the heal time is not the answer to gangbangs.

Its one thing to improve jasons ability with groups. Lets make that happen.

Its another thing to just whine about the game being too hard for Jason and suggest changes that screw over all non Jason fanboys with match long repercussions

Solutions and suggestions are good, but sensible non bias solutions.

You've put in a good effort to try and talk to these people, but it's really not worth it.  The Jason plebs are just going to circlejerk each other with ridiculous ideas of "balance," and they will continue whining until they get their way.

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36 minutes ago, AdrianBlackbear said:

You've put in a good effort to try and talk to these people, but it's really not worth it.  The Jason plebs are just going to circlejerk each other with ridiculous ideas of "balance," and they will continue whining until they get their way.

Yes..  us Jason Plebs!.  How DARE WE not LOVE seeing Jason getting stunned silly over and over again or offer any solutions for it. 

 I mean, what is this?  A forum for Friday the 13th game or something?.  Clearly this forum is for other things besides game play discussion.  ..

Like exchanging dinner recipes...     or foot fetish video clips.

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Long post warning.

Most Jasons can deal with groups if they try a new tactic or are good enough. Its not impossible or even overly difficult for Jason to do so. If really good counsellor players beat up on an average Jason for a while... That is just the nature of being better than someone. And even then Jason will likely get the last kill. Jason should feel like a tank 90% of the time but that doesn't mean he should always be played like one. Jason can get stunned, but he can always get back up again (if he is even knocked down). He does get rage, and if he trades damage with counsellors long enough the counsellors will usually die.

If you want the variables of skill and player personality removed, then bots and single player are finally here. There's no shame in that, but an online game that pits people against other people is never going to be a pure Jason slaughter simulator...

With that said,

I will take a crack at discussing some suggestions for improving group combat before I abandon this thread. It would also be interesting to discuss group combat from the counsellor perspective, but i'm going to leave that for another time.

@HuDawg and @AdrianBlackbear and @Bropollocreed79 and @Alkavian for good measure. Here goes...

@HuDawg, the reason (I) disagree with your solutions is that they affect the game too much outside of group combat, even though you say Jason being beat on by groups is your main concern. So I will explain why and make my own honest to goodness suggestion to help Jason with groups because I do agree that it can get silly sometimes, although I don't often have trouble with groups myself.

5 second heal time would alienate plenty of players, because players can need to heal for a variety of reasons other than in group combat. A stun meter is similar. These suggestions are decent for group combat, but not all interactions with Jason come in the group setting and these suggestions would swing balance too far in Jasons favor outside of group combat, making the online game too similar to a single player Jason mode. One on one or even two on one, Jason is going to destroy most counsellors already. Its groups of four or more that enter "gang bang" territory.

But I'll roll with it if you really want to talk "sensible" solutions...

How do you all feel about a knockback ability that fills up much like shift or morph, and fills up faster when Jason has rage? When full, Jason can use it to forcefully knock back any and all players in his immediate vicinity, and seperate them a few feet from each other (so he could still get a grab kill but they could also get a save if they react quick enough). This keeps Jason gameplay uncomplicated by just adding the ability to his basic moveset.

Now, perhaps it stuns the counsellors but Jason also needs to recover from the animation before he can move his feet (he could still use all his abilities like shift and morph though, but we can't just give him a free kill). An aggressive Jason could risk using shift to get a kill, or use shift/morph to leave & come back to catch the group offguard or attempt to stop an objective if he needs to.  At the very least it would break up a stun fest and give Jason a chance before the next one begins.

OR

perhaps Jason can move right away so he wont need to shift at counsellors if he wants to go strait for a kill after knocking the counsellors back. Of course in this case the counsellors would also be able to move so Jason would need to react fast enough to get them while they are temporarily extra vulnerable.

OR

this move would be one time use only in the match, but it would render all counsellors in his immediate vicinity stunned for about 5 - 10 seconds (5 seconds for running Jasons, 10 for walking Jasons). A well timed shift or run could give Jason 1 easy kill. This would help a bad Jason up their kill count or help any Jason avoid being killed themselves if they save it for Tommy or Sweater girl. Of course, Jason would have to keep in mind how many pocket knives have been used up to this point. He could also get several slashes on someone if he is efficient.

Any one of these knockback abilities would give Jason a better way of managing groups, but it would not make the game easier for him or harder for counsellors in other situations that don't involve groups. Group combat would be less ridiculous and general balance would be preserved.

@HuDawg If it really is that you want group play to be less silly, this is a viable solution that helps Jason WITHOUT screwing over counsellors (actual balance) and I could get on board with it. Either way, I doubt it will happen though.

 

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The best way to approach, really, how the game is currently unbalanced is to consider things in terms of the best Jason vs the best Counselors and answer these types of things in that context. The game has to work around ideal circumstances and its design can't be catering to people who just haven't caught on or sharpened their skills. 

Best Counselors vs Best Jason, Survival vs Slaughter

Who is in control of the duration of the match? Who determines how quickly the match could end, or how long it can be drawn out?

Who is playing interactively and who is playing reactively? Who is taking steps to accomplish their goal and who is working to interrupt that accomplishment? 

Who greatly benefits from the other making mistakes? 

Who has a shortage of tools and abilities to accomplish their goal and who has an abundance? 

Who is a greater threat to the other?

So if you look at these in the appropriate way, best vs best, it should paint a picture of how the game is balanced.

The goal for counselors is to survive, ultimately escaping, the imminent threat of an unstoppable killer. Again, best vs best - Is the threat unstoppable? Is he even a threat? Is Jason just rolling over everyone without breaking a sweat? Are the counselors in imminent danger?

- As far as my experience is X, QP lobbies are full of X, so on and so forth, again, this is not what a game is designed around. No lowering the bar.

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@CPLhicks31

Dude.. thats way too much text for me to even get into.   You need to make it smaller for my simple stoner brain to handle.  (Not trying to be a dick, im serious just too glossy eyed for all that)

But basically you're sort of asking for some huge game player changes.  While im just asking for minor tweaks to specific things.
 

I don't see being 5-10 seconds of being immune to stun as that big a deal.  (Counselors need to move.. right?)

5 second healing?  (Counselors need to get away from Jason and any cabin/house would do)

These are changes that i would enjoy as a counselor. And would basically make counselors move. Including my stupid ass.

But who knows.. Maybe just fixing BLOCK and making grab faster will cut down on this a bit.  

Alls i know is the only real counter to gang beatings currently is having to wait for weapons, med sprays and pocket knives to be used up.  And hoping for a quick choke/head punch grab.   So ya, eventually that shit does stop..lol

 

 

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10 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

@CPLhicks31

Dude.. thats way too much text for me to even get into.   You need to make it smaller for my simple stoner brain to handle.  (Not trying to be a dick, im serious just too glossy eyed for all that)

But basically you're sort of asking for some huge game player changes.  While im just asking for minor tweaks to specific things.
 

I don't see being 5-10 seconds of being immune to stun as that big a deal.  (Counselors need to move.. right?)

5 second healing?  (Counselors need to get away from Jason and any cabin/house would do)

These are changes that i would enjoy as a counselor. And would basically make counselors move. Including my stupid ass.

But who knows.. Maybe just fixing BLOCK and making grab faster will cut down on this a bit.  

Alls i know is the only real counter to gang beatings currently is having to wait for weapons, med sprays and pocket knives to be used up.  And hoping for a quick choke/head punch grab.   So ya, eventually that shit does stop..lol

 

 

fair enough.

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Just nerf Vanessa and to a certain extent Chad and bullying Jason wouldn't be as bad.LOL  On a serious note It's as easy to kill Jason than it is to escape or do any objectives. There is no level matching  system.I think that is somewhat the problem.Veteran players going up against total new players still learning and the vets showing little to no mercy.That will turn people  away real fast.Maybe some of you "god" Jason players could start recording your tougher matches and make a tutorial video.

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10 seconds, that’s all he needs 10 seconds of immunity. Nothing more and nothing less. @HuDawg

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23 minutes ago, TiffanyIsBae said:

10 seconds, that’s all he needs 10 seconds of immunity. Nothing more and nothing less. @HuDawg

5-10 seconds isn't a big deal.  Jason just spent 5-10 seconds stunned.  Seems fair to me.

That would make me back off Jason.  Not sure what the big deal is.

I've yet see a valid argument against it.    

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You got to love these people who apparently have NEVER encountered groups of well coordinated counselors. It’s always, well you just aren’t using the right strategies, it’s EASY to deal with large groups of counselors. Bullshit, you either don’t actually play the game or are lying. Its stun city with more than 2, sometimes even just 2.

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7 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

5-10 seconds isn't a big deal.  Jason just spent 5-10 seconds stunned.  Seems fair to me.

That would make me back off Jason.  Not sure what the big deal is.

I've yet see a valid argument against it.    

This would help against aggressive teams, and it wouldn’t hurt slow counselors. 

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10 hours ago, CPLhicks31 said:

fair enough.

I've always advocated forJason to have a radial aoe stun based on him lifting his mask to scare the counselors.  It should uninterruptible with a 10 minute cool down.  Any counselor within 50 feet is stunned for 10 seconds, or has to utilize the grip mechanic minigame to break free of their fear.

 

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1 hour ago, Bropollocreed79 said:

I've always advocated forJason to have a radial aoe stun based on him lifting his mask to scare the counselors.  It should uninterruptible with a 10 minute cool down.  Any counselor within 50 feet is stunned for 10 seconds, or has to utilize the grip mechanic minigame to break free of their fear.

 

It's not a bad idea but it would be odd considering he could end up running around de-masked and not constantly stunning people.

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30 minutes ago, DasMurich said:

It's not a bad idea but it would be odd considering he could end up running around de-masked and not constantly stunning people.

Fair point, but we're also talking about a game that has a med spray to fix mortal wounds.

Edit: logically, it still works.  Once he's demasked, he'd lose the ability.  The shock value would be gone after you've already seen his face for a long enough period of time.

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2 hours ago, Bropollocreed79 said:

I've always advocated forJason to have a radial aoe stun based on him lifting his mask to scare the counselors.  It should uninterruptible with a 10 minute cool down.  Any counselor within 50 feet is stunned for 10 seconds, or has to utilize the grip mechanic minigame to break free of their fear.

 

Using the grip mechanic is not a bad idea at all.

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I know this may not help at all, but there's a thread I've made that focuses on adding a new "quick-block" mechanic for Jason (and no counselor nerfs).

More informations, visit here: http://forum.f13game.com/topic/19822-option-to-block-when-runningfast-walking/

Edit: I should have followed this thread from the start...

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