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HuDawg

The current state of Jason vs Counselors

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16 hours ago, humerabi said:

This is no offense to you, but if you consistently play against a team of experienced counselors that work together, YOU ARE GOING TO DIE AS JASON! The only way someone has not died yet as Jason, is if they run the entire match when there mask comes off or there playing against a bunch of randoms who don't work together. Jason is 60/40 in favor of killing a counselor when its 1 on 1, but its about 25/75 when they are working as a unit. Mainly because you cant body block anymore as Jason.

Not necessary there is many ways to counter death by blocking shacks (Jason at the door) , trapping power to avoid tommy , Killing Tommy etc...

The only think i will say is that Jason is too vulnerable unmasked.

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Not trying to Bring Up any Past Posts Or Drama, But I completely disagree with Buffing either Side, I read all of the Important Posts In here, And I agree With CPL (And the Defense Force of Stop bullshiting) Some of the stats you brought up were completely bullshit, I hit Jason with Jenny 1-4 Times, Only 2/4 Times Did the Wrench or The Bat Stun him for me, So It's not even 90% Of the Time, It takes more than 1 and 2 Hits from Deborah to Actually Stun Him, Same With AJ Or Any other Counselor with Low Luck And High Luck too, Jason Doesn't need to be changed, He is in a Normal Spot, And Organized GROUPS are meant to be OP, They are ORGANIZED For a Reason.

Anyways, Anything that is about Buffing One Side is almost always a Bias and The Poster will almost always bring up Bullshit Stats, So I disagree with this post.

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2 hours ago, HuDawg said:

Played few games with a group of friends last night.  They where all lvl 150.  (Could be some of the people here)

The player as Jason got one of the biggest beat downs i've ever seen.  Its was just brutal.  And the people beating the crap out of him where his friends..lol

We all got to talking about this issue.     Most of them just wanted STUN immunity for 10 seconds AFTER getting out of a STUN..   And a faster grab recovery.

Also..  all of them agreed with me saying that healing should take about 5 seconds.

 

The reality is.  Even if they removed all weapons from the game Counselors could still all attack each objective and Jason can't be everywhere at once.  Meaning even without weapons counselors will escape.  (Im not saying remove all weapons, im just making a point)

 

There is zero reason for Counselors to be able stun Jason so easily and so often.   The games balance was perfect just before this patch.  Hope gun can get it back together sooner than later.

 

 

Sure, but this is all 150 high end players as you said yourself. Newer players would likely desire the opposite (give or take). I have friends who are under level 20 and find it impossible to survive against any decent Jason. They tell me they want nerfs jor Jason and buffs to counsellors. i also have 150 high end friends who want what you say. The truth, and the balance, should be in the middle... which is roughly what we have now.

We can't cater 100% to the 150's like us  and alienate the casuals and new players. We also should not cater to the noobs and alienate the vets. Thus, a middle ground is required.

Back when there were increased pocket knives and sprays and guns that was catering to counsellors and it sucked. It was awful. Then items and weapons were reduced and Jason was given more throwing knives and a speed increase. Right now, things are somewhat balanced. Is it perfect? No. Does it need tweaking? Sure. For both sides, even. Are drastic changes necessary just to please players who are entrenched on one side or another? No.

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9 minutes ago, SmugDoka said:

Not trying to Bring Up any Past Posts Or Drama, But I completely disagree with Buffing either Side, I read all of the Important Posts In here, And I agree With CPL (And the Defense Force of Stop bullshiting) Some of the stats you brought up were completely bullshit, I hit Jason with Jenny 1-4 Times, Only 2/4 Times Did the Wrench or The Bat Stun him for me, So It's not even 90% Of the Time, It takes more than 1 and 2 Hits from Deborah to Actually Stun Him, Same With AJ Or Any other Counselor with Low Luck And High Luck too, Jason Doesn't need to be changed, He is in a Normal Spot, And Organized GROUPS are meant to be OP, They are ORGANIZED For a Reason.

Anyways, Anything that is about Buffing One Side is almost always a Bias and The Poster will almost always bring up Bullshit Stats, So I disagree with this post.

Thank you for actually recognizing how bias works. That is so refreshing.

There's nothing wrong with being bias except when posters try to pass themselves off as unbias to validate a bias argument. Its pretty human though, so many posters do it.

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6 minutes ago, CPLhicks31 said:

Sure, but this is all 150 high end players as you said yourself. Newer players would likely desire the opposite (give or take). I have friends who are under level 20 and find it impossible to survive against any decent Jason. They tell me they want nerfs jor Jason and buffs to counsellors.

Well to be honest..   You can't take newbies seriously at all.    Because if you alter the game for them, in time they will be experienced and then think (WTF was i thinking)

You must always take players who are at least average and compare then on a equal level.    If 8 players of equal skill in a game.. One as Jason 7 as counselor.  

I mean..What if your same newbie friend was Jason against lvl 150 players.  I bet he would be singing a different tune after he gets ZERO kills and the shit kicked out him for 20 mins.  And after that beating.  The entire way he plays counselors would change too. 

Players must learn BOTH sides in order to have a realistic view of this game. 

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7 minutes ago, CPLhicks31 said:

Thank you for actually recognizing how bias works. That is so refreshing.

There's nothing wrong with being bias except when posters try to pass themselves off as unbias to validate a bias argument. Its pretty human though, so many posters do it.

Indeed, And a Lot of these Bias People on F13 Forums are Either Counselor Mains Or Jason Fanboys (From what I have seen, At least)

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6 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

Well to be honest..   You can't take newbies seriously at all.    Because if you alter the game for them, in time they will be experienced and then think (WTF was i thinking)

You must always take players who are at least average and compare then on a equal level.    If 8 players of equal skill in a game.. One as Jason 7 as counselor.  

I mean..But your same newbie friend as Jason against lvl 150 players.  I bet he would be singing a different tune after he gets ZERO kills and the shit kicked out him for 20 mins.  And after that beating.  The entire way he plays counselors would change to.

Players must learn BOTH sides in order to have a realistic view of this game. 

That is literally what I said. Cater to a middle ground, which is essentially what we have now. Hence why balance is goodISH. Dont cater to noobs, but dont cater to your organized 150 friends either. Cater to niether.

If we buff Jason so that he can better deal with organized groups in any way that affects non organized groups, we are doing just as much damage to the game as a whole as we are fixing it. If we buff counsellors to make it easier for noobs, then we are doing damage as well.

That is why minor changes (for both sides) and free of bias are the only real option.

Now that said, a really good Jason can still get kills against good players. Right now, how good a Jason does is dependent on: skill of jason, skill of counsellors, strategizing, and luck. That seems about right to me.

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11 minutes ago, SmugDoka said:

 

Anyways, Anything that is about Buffing One Side is almost always a Bias and The Poster will almost always bring up Bullshit Stats, So I disagree with this post.

I disagree 

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Just now, HuDawg said:

I disagree 

Alright Then, I don't want to go into Further Detail As to why you Disagree, I Just Shared my opinion about that Matter, Even If I presented it as a fact, I'll let others handle the argument.

 

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1 hour ago, CPLhicks31 said:

That is literally what I said. Cater to a middle ground, which is essentially what we have now. Hence why balance is goodISH.

Until the gang beating stun shit show is removed.  It not balanced.  

My 1st post lays it all out.


This is Jasons game.    Jason rules..    The only reason i sound 'bias'  is because i know where my priority lies when it comes to 'balance'

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2 minutes ago, HuDawg said:

Until the gang beating stun shit show is removed.  It not balanced.  

My 1st post lays it all out.


This is Jasons game.    Jason rules..    The only reason i sound 'bias'  is because i know priority lies when it comes to 'balance'

Alright I simply wanted to observe, Buuut Then I saw that Jason's Game Bullshit and Got Triggered as a Cheeky Counselor Main, Alright Anyways:

No, It is not "Only" Jason's Game with Jason's Rule, No Matter what the game was based on, It shouldn't simply cater to One Person, In This case: Jason, If you truly want a More Jason's Game Experience, Bots Exist, Single Player Challenges also Exist Now, Over Buffing One Side is Not going to make Many People Happy, Not everyone is in this for Jason.

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For those not in this game for Jason, may i suggest the Sims? Dance and emote to your hearts content there

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3 minutes ago, cruehitman said:

For those not in this game for Jason, may i suggest the Sims? Dance and emote to your hearts content there

Why Thank you, FYI I play Sims, But I don't play this Game for Jason, I play it because It's a Survival Game Where I Have Fun, I know this wasn't 100% Directly meant to be sent to me, But Since I made a Point about Not everyone being in this Game for F13 Franchise or For Jason, I had to reply.

Also I hate playing as Jason, Playing as a Counselor and Using my wits is a lot more fun, Than being a Serial Killer (I wouldn't complain to play Ghost Face in a Scream game though, No Supernatural Bullshit).

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I'm level 150 and feel I'm pretty moderate.  Like most people I am a counselor 90% of the time so want a balance given how infrequently anyone actually is Jason.  I avoid private matches because everyone is too experienced and it's boring because at the higher-end of experience, groups of coordinated counselors are OP.  Thus, I play QP where it's a large balance of types of players and more challenge for counselors and more balanced for Jason.

I'm not in favor of sweeping changes (like removing systems entirely that help counselors, or removing perks, or other things suggested here).  That said, I feel Vanessa is overtuned and nerfing her in some way is all that's needed to prevent the 100s of complaints that start with "Vanessa did this so I want all counselors gutted"  that we see every day.  I feel she is purposely chosen by trolls because she enjoys a combination of stats that in this meta are overpowered compared to every other counselor.  Some people have then concluded I'm a Jason main when my favorite character to play out of everyone is AJ.

I'm also hugely in favor of them first fixing bugs that result in "Free kills" for Jason, like the car rubber banding, getting trapped under a bed, and med sprays not working.

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I don't agree with a 5-10 second heal and duplicate items, but to alter your idea about counselor attacks being canceled after being struck, I think that counselors should take a somewhat brief recovery. Even if I hit them, the animation cancels as a Weapon Strength Jason, but they can attack immediately after and I can't do shit to avoid it. I like the immediate block again, as I loved doing that. I also think that Stun Resistance strengths should actually do something, because they seem to have no effect at all. I noticed in J9 that it takes less button mashing to rise again, but that's it? I think Stun Resistance strengths to reduce stun chance by a larger amount and be stunned for less time, because J9 suffers from his Low Hit Points which makes him easy to kill. In large groups even he still gets his ass kicked, almost as if Stun Resistance doesn't do shit. (because it really doesn't seem to do anything.) I would ask for like a 20-25% stun chance reduction for counselors on that strength, since there is literally only one Jason with that strength and it would make up for his low HP.

Additionally, I find it annoying that it can take up to three strikes against Jasons with low defense, even Part 5, to actually stun that Jason with a baseball bat. It's super annoying and almost makes the Defense weakness a strength. That literally takes away any self-defense counselors have.

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48 minutes ago, SmugDoka said:

Alright I simply wanted to observe, Buuut Then I saw that Jason's Game Bullshit and Got Triggered as a Cheeky Counselor Main, Alright Anyways:

No, It is not "Only" Jason's Game with Jason's Rule, No Matter what the game was based on, It shouldn't simply cater to One Person, In This case: Jason, If you truly want a More Jason's Game Experience, Bots Exist, Single Player Challenges also Exist Now, Over Buffing One Side is Not going to make Many People Happy, Not everyone is in this for Jason.

Buffing isn't a bad word.  Neither is nerfing.  

 

Besides..

I don't really care about peoples opinions about my 'bais' .  Thats why my 1st line in this thread is basically me saying.  Dont' accuse me of being a Jason main.  (Which is a nice way of saying STFU and stay on topic)  

Its as if anyone who wants Jason to be a real threat, you're  quickly labeled a JASON MAIN and considered bias.  WTF is this shit?  Stoooop over thinking things.  Its not that deep. 

 

Infact im as about as blunt as anyone can possibly get.     


And yes.. this is Jason games.   And anyones who's a counselor MAIN and scoffs at any Jason buff/tweak is the one with the real bias.  And i don't take them seriously at all when it comes to game balance.   You don't play both sides?   Then it doesn't matter what they think.

 

 

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1 minute ago, HuDawg said:

Buffing isn't a bad word.  Neither is nerfing.  

 

Besides..

I don't really care about peoples opinions about my 'bais' .  Thats why my 1st line in this thread is basically me saying.  Dont' accuse me of being a Jason main.  (Which is a nice way of saying STFU and stay on topic)  

Its as if anyone who wants Jason to be a real threat, you're  quickly labeled a JASON MAIN and considered bias.  WTF is this shit?  Stoooop over thinking things.  Its not that deep. 

 

Infact im as about as blunt as anyone can possibly get.     


And yes.. this is Jason games.   And anyones who's a counselor MAIN and scoffs at any Jason buff/tweak is the one with the real bias.  And i don't take them seriously at all when it comes to game balance.   You don't play both sides?   Then it doesn't matter what they think.

 

 

Really, Are you actually pulling this shit out again, Sorry Dawg But You shouldn't talk about Counselors either if you didn't know a Mechanic About them Existed, And Just By Watching people Play Or Playing against them, I can Say that Jason doesn't need that Buff And Counselors don't need a Nerf, And Anyone who scoffs at Jason being Buffed is the one with a Real Bias, Oh Sorry I didn't mean to say I wasn't a Biased Player, In the case that I want both Sides to be Balanced, So If You Scoff at Counselors you aren't Bias, Oh Alright then.

This is why I have always disliked you, And I will continue to do so, Arguing with you is a Waste of my time.

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9 minutes ago, SmugDoka said:

Really, Are you actually pulling this shit out again,

Nooo.. Im telling you exactly how it is.

Why the hell should anyone who only plays counselor ONLY and has a very CLEAR BIAS on counselors only, be chiming in claiming im BIAS.  When i clearly said i play both sides.

By all means.  Please tell me, what do you bring to the table besides claiming im bias and ignoring the actual POINT of the topic.

Because in the end..  Im just wanting the gang beating stun parties to be altered/stopped (Because it looks idiotic)  and nothing more than that.  

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1 minute ago, HuDawg said:

Nooo.. Im telling you exactly how it is.

Why the hell should anyone who only plays counselor ONLY and has a very CLEAR BIAS on counselors only, be chiming in claiming im BIAS.  When i clearly said i play both sides.

By all means.  Please tell me, what do you bring to the table besides claiming im bias and ignoring the actual POINT of the topic.

Because in the end..  Im just wanting the gang beating stun parties to be altered/stopped (Because it looks idiotic)  and nothing more than that.  

I Already Said I am Done with this argument, You may see it as chickening out And Think I don't have evidence.

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1 minute ago, SmugDoka said:

I Already Said I am Done with this argument

Cool.. then hit the bricks. ..lol

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Bias? Jasons grab was nerfed in the last patch, which before was deemed by "both sides" as ok. Most are just basically hoping for the grab to be brought back. By this argument , anyone who disagrees is being completly bias?

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If you wish not to read all of this just read the last two sections. It is a fair rework and I put a lot of thought into this and have several hundreds of hours in game on both sides.

You pretty much screw yourself when you swing at a counselor since spamming the swing button at them provides them with a counter window 100% of the time. It's like they are just so used to getting beat by a large angry killer that they can KO any hitting them as soon as they are attacked. It DOES look goofy. What happened to that head punch scene from the movies? Jason got beat up and he didn't care... Did he stiffen up and fall on his back laughably on the first or second punch? NO HE DID NOT. The combat against Jason Is laughable if you are going for movie accuracy. Maybe that's why people troll so hard? 

Also with the new patch making it "not possible" to hit jason as sweater girl actually made killing him easier, since it makes the person with the sweater give the axe in his shack to tommy instead of making him find a machete. Resources needed to kill him have pretty much been halved. On a flip side I also like it because it makes tommy out to be more of a hero rather than a come here and press the use button bitch. Plus the machete is OP for a strong counselor, low stun chance/max damage and 7 strength foxes everywhere? That jason better go into hiding if he values his life.

I agree with CS being broken now in all aspects plus the stupid slow attack speed with some weapons that allow for a counter. One needs to be punished for getting hit not be given a free swing at him, they should be able to run out of the second swing but to not counter it. Plus you need to watch out as jason since your ability modifier button gets stuck sometimes preventing you from swinging or grabbing or doing anything for that matter. Other than the patched bugs for counselor I feel as though they have a pretty straightforward game that can be a challenging gamble a lot of times. Do I fear Jason Vorhees in this game? No I do not. I know I can just find a machete and beat up on him/kill him if he blocks objectives.

I think jason needs stun chances to be based on strength but overall massively reduced unless he gets hit a bunch within a fair amount of time. If he gets beat up on some he gets stunned while standing, then with even more beatings he falls down and takes longer to get up. That gives the full effect of really beating the crap out of him and makes his falldown animation appropriate. He should be on the ground longer too depending on +-stun resistance. It also gives trolls the ticket of trolling since it seems appropriate that they would T-bag his face on the ground for allowing himself to get beaten. Killing him should be a hit/miss GROUP effort not just one person with jarvis so often.

He should also have invulnerability and a very short grab debuff after every time he gets hit so it makes him swing back instead of just grabbing the person and killing them outright. This fixes chain stunning since the invulnerability keeps him from taking damage or being stunned at all and is indicated with the red screen like when you get knifed or hit. Jason can still be interrupted in a grab or swing at the phone box. Invulnerability shortens the more times he gets hit within a fair amount of time, then it increases with a speed based on +-stun resistance or +-defense. Hitting Jason should be used to save people, regen stam, to prevent him from hitting the phone box and to prevent yourself/others from being grabbed or pulled out of the car. If Jason blocks it gives him shortened invulnerable time, he gets no grab debuff and makes him take reduced damage from the blow. The people fighting him are no superheros after all. 5 strength=normal stun chance, less=reduced or severely reduced, 6+ high or really high stun chance. The slutty chick shouldn't be able to lay out a guy much taller and stronger then her with a pot slap to the arm. This makes bodyguard characters like bugsy more relevant and enhances a combat play style mostly for those who pick those characters. I want to see oh shit! Its Jason Vorhees! Not "hey, do you just wanna beat up on this guy?" or "Do you just wanna kill him?"

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3 hours ago, HuDawg said:

Until the gang beating stun shit show is removed.  It not balanced.  

My 1st post lays it all out.


This is Jasons game.    Jason rules..    The only reason i sound 'bias'  is because i know where my priority lies when it comes to 'balance'

Okay... But its not as if Jason does not have the abilities to deal with gangs. He does. Whether the player controlling Jason can use them to effectively deal with groups is another issue entirely.

Also, yes you are bias. You can play both sides and still be bias. Saying its by "jasons rules" is literally a bias. It isnt wrong. Nothing wrong with being bias, as long as you can own it. But you are bias. By saying "i only want one side buffed and its that sides rules we shouldplay by" is essentially admitting to a bias. 

I am all for changes that help Jason deal with groups but we need to be very careful that they dont otherwise make it tedious for the other side.

For example: Giving jason some kind of spin move that he needs to charge just like any other ability is fine. That way he can temporarily break up crowds, but gameplay in general can remain balanced.

5 second healing would not work because it would also make playing the game tedious for any new players, solo players, or players who dont play in active groups. 

There is a cause and effect of any changes that we need to be aware of. We can implement changes to help Jason deal with groups, but we have to consider how they affect everything else as well. Some changes can help Jason deal with groups without making other aspects of the game tedious. That is balance. 

 

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On 6/6/2018 at 9:24 AM, xllxENIGMAxllx said:

I mean running around tables are pathetic we can still counter it but still.

You know what would be pretty cool?  If and only when Jason is in Rage Mode, he receives a prompt to push furniture aside or destroy it.  Maybe flip over a table or kick chairs away and if it makes contact with the counselors, they stumble.  

Of course the game would need to be fully polished  before this could even be a thing.

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1 minute ago, CPLhicks31 said:

Also, yes you are bias. Saying its by "jasons rules" is literally a bias. It isnt wrong. Nothing wrong with being bias, as long as you can own it. But you are bias. By saying "i only want one side buffed and its that sides rules" you are essentially admitting to a bias.

To be fair, if were the other way around, it'd be a gang of teenagers beating up on a handicapped kid.

Regardless, the game isn't much fun as a counselor when you can have a Jason Pinata party requiring absolutely no skill or effort other than gang-tactics where everyone simply surrounds Jason and chain stuns him into oblivion.  Counter tactics?  So you get lucky with timing coming out of a block as Jason and land a slash;   Congratulations! You just got stunned by Lachappa hitting you with a sock full of wet turds!

Grab someone?  Here comes Deborah to accost you with a foam pool noodle! Now you've dropped your prey and you're vulnerable to being stunned by Chad, brandishing balloon full of the tears of poor people!  Now you're laid out in the road and everyone is dancing over you.

Playing Jason shouldn't require some intricate knowledge of game mechanics or impeccable timing.  It should feel like driving a tank over a protester.

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