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Looking hard at perks.  

38 members have voted

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  1. 1. Do you like counselor perks as they are currently implemented (slot machine/random)?

    • Yes
      3
    • No
      33
    • I'm Indifferent. Meh.
      2
  2. 2. What would your preferred method be to aquire perks?

    • Purchase specific perks with CP and then pay with CP and/or usage to upgrade?
      21
    • Purchase specific perks with CP and have random determination of quality? (semi-slot machine)
      4
    • Purchase rolls for random perks (like now) but upgrade to higher quality using CP? (semi-slot machine)
      11
    • Some other method. Give ideas in your response please.
      2
  3. 3. Do you feel that the current perks need re-balancing and/or re-design to make them all more viable/desirable to use?

    • Yes
      32
    • No
      3
    • I'm Indifferent. Meh.
      3

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  • Poll closed on 06/22/2018 at 07:58 AM

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Ok,

Lets hear what you guys think about the current perk system. The Devs are busily fixing bugs and whatnot at the moment, so in the meantime I"d like to get some poll feedback regarding an aspect of the game that gives quite a bit of heartache.

My thoughts:

1. Legendary Perks are mostly worthless. I like the concept of having an additional boon over a standard perk, but otherwise I'm underwhelmed.

2. I hate the CP lottery. Seems like a pointless waste of time, and it always has been. Could we please get something better?

3. Can we have perks that are better balanced and more useful across the board. Too few useful perks. Too many situational or irrelevant perks. Please Devs, think this through and get back to us with something exciting and better implemented.

4. The perk system is probably one of the single biggest offenders in terms of letting the game get stale. You can't get the ones you want and have to count on chance to throw you a bone. You can't invest time and TLC into upgrading them to higher levels (once again, you are a slave to chance). There are few "good" perks and a whole lot of laughable ones. You can not even have all of the existing perks at the same time. Perhaps this was done with the thought process that you'd make players choose which valuable ones to keep and which ones to throw away? Newsflash, you could have had just one one row of 10 and covered all your bases with a few spaces to spare for miscellaneous crap perks.

5. Why are there still old unused art assets in the perk roll line-up? You might think about taking those out at some point so we all don't have to keep explaining there is no "pocket knife" perk.

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The perk rolling right now is pretty lame. I have over 250k unused cp but 0 motivation to use it cause who really wants to spend several hours rolling perks for a very small % chance of an upgrade you want? Not me at least that's for sure. Really need more space too the roll a perk delete a perk then repeat gets old really fast.

Buying a specific perk then being able to upgrade it would be a lot better. Wouldn't care if it took over 100k cp to do it would be better than our current perk rolling system.

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11 minutes ago, Lexandremon said:

I think we need more space for perks too :3
besides the ideas already given

I'd certainly agree we should have enough slots to own all perks. Of course that is all contingent on them being interesting and relevant. The Devs are really missing out on hooking players in by having such a lack of depth in terms of customization.

Just now, gamerx42z said:

The perk rolling right now is pretty lame. I have over 250k unused cp but 0 motivation to use it cause who really wants to spend several hours rolling perks for a very small % chance of an upgrade you want? Not me at least that's for sure. Really need more space too the roll a perk delete a perk then repeat gets old really fast.

Buying a specific perk then being able to upgrade it would be a lot better. Wouldn't care if it took over 100k cp to do it would be better than our current perk rolling system.

Yeah, I spent 178K+....got Legendary Heavy Mover, Aquanaut, Heavy Sleeper, and Lone Wolf. Lone Wolf is mildly useful, but overall I'm very dissatisfied with the nature of perks and how they are acquired.

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A blood web would be better, heck I’d even prefer if some perks had one time uses like sprint burst. ATM only 5-8 perks are actually worth picking up, which sucks because people are always complaining about nerfing them. 

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2 minutes ago, TiffanyIsBae said:

A blood web would be better, heck I’d even prefer if some perks had one time uses like sprint burst. ATM only 5-8 perks are actually worth picking up, which sucks because people are always complaining about nerfing them. 

Well, the blood web is essentially a progression tree. I doubt the Devs would outright steal that design from DbD, but they certainly need to consider something to make perks better. What perks do, how you get them, how you improve them, and a bunch of other things need to be addressed. Don't get me wrong, my first priority in suggestions is fixing bugs, but looking towards game improvement and longevity; perks are #1 followed by major content. The only reason I say that is that expansive content (maps/modes) will tire quicker if the core gameplay/customization remains stagnant. The foundation of this game needs to be built up a bit more. It is also why I'd like to see new and interesting items to help fill out the maps.

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1. No, I do not like the current system, it cheapens the game and doesn't encourage play.

2. Purchase specific perks with CP and then pay with CP and/or usage to upgrade.

This would make CP valuable, but I feel it would need to be zeroed out, with some form of compensation given based on total CP earned ever. This would not be popular but it would be fair, I would let people keep any perk they had equipped.

3. No, the current perks are a good base. It's the way that they get distributed that is a problem. I really want the perks to be used in a way that encourages specific builds. The best way I can think of is to treat them like a pyramid, three weak perks that form the base of a skill, two useful perks that work with the three below them, and a single really good perk at the top that defines the pyramid. 

Medic, Thick Skin And Nerves of Steel (NOS) could each form a pyramid by being the top perk with others that make sense being placed below to unlock them. So you have to choose a single role for your counselor. A few other pyramids that could be interesting are listed separately below.

Runner Pyramid 

Hiding Pyramid 

Pranks/Distraction Pyramid

Jack-of-all-trades type, that gives you some randomness would be cool.

I'm sure others interesting builds would be discovered while trying to fit the existing perks into this new model. I find I'd like to take the crappie perks sometimes because they suit how I'm playing a character. I think this would get those crappie perks more love when people realize that their actually more useful than the top one, occasionally even saving the day.

I also think it would mean a Jason buff would need to be incorporated if the counselors were upgraded in this way. Casual games would still be much the same but with organization of any kind this could give a team a real advantage. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Alkavian said:

Well, the blood web is essentially a progression tree. I doubt the Devs would outright steal that design from DbD, but they certainly need to consider something to make perks better. What perks do, how you get them, how you improve them, and a bunch of other things need to be addressed. Don't get me wrong, my first priority in suggestions is fixing bugs, but looking towards game improvement and longevity; perks are #1 followed by major content. The only reason I say that is that expansive content (maps/modes) will tire quicker if the core gameplay/customization remains stagnant. The foundation of this game needs to be built up a bit more. It is also why I'd like to see new and interesting items to help fill out the maps.

A progression system is what the game needs, I've spent so much CP for the same poor perks. New items and mechanics are the only thing that would interest players, plus gameplay is getting stale. A pocket knife for water is a must have, because any map with a boat is annoying. More defense for Jason, and counselors. 

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The roulette wheel definitely sucks. Hell I wouldn't mind so much if you could pick the perk you want to roll for and let fate decide what percent you get. Alot of the perks would be good if you combined them. Combine some of the sense avoidance perks to clear up space and give them a higher percentage. If you combined Home Body, Heavy Sleeper, and Controlled Breathing into one perk with a high percentage chance of working they'd actually be useful.  If low profile had 40 or even 50 percent chance of working alot more people would run it. Hell Lightfoot might see play if it had any use beyond A.J. That's just a few examples of ones I think you could improve and add a proper stealth play style to the game.

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3 minutes ago, thrawn3054 said:

The roulette wheel definitely sucks. Hell I wouldn't mind so much if you could pick the perk you want to roll for and let fate decide what percent you get. Alot of the perks would be good if you combined them. Combine some of the sense avoidance perks to clear up space and give them a higher percentage. If you combined Home Body, Heavy Sleeper, and Controlled Breathing into one perk with a high percentage chance of working they'd actually be useful.  If low profile had 40 or even 50 percent chance of working alot more people would run it. Hell Lightfoot might see play if it had any use beyond A.J. That's just a few examples of ones I think you could improve and add a proper stealth play style to the game.

Combine them, in a pyramid maybe... ? ? 

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6 minutes ago, Slasher_Clone said:

I also think it would mean a Jason buff would need to be incorporated if the counselors were upgraded in this way. Casual games would still be much the same but with organization of any kind this could give a team a real advantage.

I honestly think most of Jason's problems lie in his own traits/abilities being in the same boat as counselor perks. You've got a few good ones and a bunch that are irrelevant. Jason could certainly use some love too in making his own abilities have more intrinsic value beyond the meta +Destruction/+Shift.

I'd love to see many of the Jason stats re-designed/balanced to make them all important as both Strengths and Weaknesses. Basically, encourage more diversified gameplay. Then they could go back and re-do the Jason's themselves to shake up the meta-game a bit. As an example, why doesn't Part 8 have +Morph? Why doesn't Part 7 have +Stalk? Why doesn't Part 4 have + Water Speed? It would be nice to see more thematic carry-overs from their movies come into play in terms of what design they carry.

Anyway, that was a bit of an off topic ramble. Your idea is certainly one to consider.

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@Slasher_Clone While a neat idea I feel like it would be somewhat limiting to players options. In my example I picked the sense avoidance perks as they're almost entirely useless. With combining and raising the percentage of them I think stealth builds would be possible. I think the same principle could apply to alot of the perks. Tinker for example is mostly useless. If it expanded the size of the skill checks instead of the speed of the qte it'd be a powerful perk. Arguably too much so and would need careful fine tuning. But you see my point.

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@thrawn3054, I think I see your point. Not trying to be a dick, every way I write this it sounds rude but I think you might have misinterpreted my first post. A hiding pyramid would have almost all or all of the sense avoidance perks and maybe even some that are kinda related like window hopping speed or sucker punch for those quick getaways. The only way I really see it being limiting is the old meta would be dead and you could only have one of the perks that people call for nerfs on.

Tinker is a useless perk, if that was the point I was supposed to agree with, I do and your suggestion would be a better fit. I would rather they expand the game than refine it though subtracting things. 

P.S. @Alkavian, going to think about that and get back to you, probably in a different thread.

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@Slasher_Clone No you're right I think I did misread your initial suggestion. I think we have the same basic idea. Mine just removed extra perks to combine into a more potent one. Yours, if I understood right just built on the lesser perks to unlock the better ones.

My point though wasn't specifically about Tinker. Rather that alot of the perks could be useful with a few changes.

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1 hour ago, thrawn3054 said:

@Slasher_Clone While a neat idea I feel like it would be somewhat limiting to players options. In my example I picked the sense avoidance perks as they're almost entirely useless. With combining and raising the percentage of them I think stealth builds would be possible. I think the same principle could apply to alot of the perks. Tinker for example is mostly useless. If it expanded the size of the skill checks instead of the speed of the qte it'd be a powerful perk. Arguably too much so and would need careful fine tuning. But you see my point.

I agree on Tinkerer. It should affect the QTE check sizes. The flawed design of how QTEs are variable makes for problems improving the perk in this fashion. If QTE check values were fixed, based on the Repair stat, it would make the perk functioning in this fashion viable and useful to any counselors. 

Currently, Luck affects your chances of getting fewer QTE checks. So players just spam activation until they get the most favorable quantity. This would need to change, but could make Luck less valuable if not compensated in some way. 

Perhaps Luck could offer a chance that a failed QTE doesn't notify Jason? 

Anyways, the rabbit hole goes deep in some cases. Tinkering with perks will have a cascade effect in terms of gameplay considerations. There is no way around it. The game needs this kind of growth and evolution in my opinion. 

 

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To me, what's important is being able to spread power through the perks so that the meta doesn't revolve around Thick Skinned/Medic with a third perk of your choosing (usually another good one like Marathon or Hypochondriac). First off, perks weren't supposed to be powerful, and now we have a limited pool of useful ones that no one deviates from if you don't want to gimp your gameplay.

A new perk system would need to accompanied with changes to the counselor's stats as well. Repair/Stealth/Strength are in need of buffs as well as feeling like essential to gameplay, and how the stats are changed would ultimately determine how the perks should accommodate them.

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7 hours ago, Trident77 said:

A new perk system would need to accompanied with changes to the counselor's stats as well.

Pretty much. There is little way to avoid it. Not that certain stats couldn't use some polish.

I get why the system is as it is. Limited development time, indie game, that (the Devs) pretty much had to cobble together what ideas they thought they could make work in the time and budget they had. We're way past that point now. The game needs depth and customization to keep it from getting stale. I think Ben's statement that perks were never meant to influential is a carry-over from the tight budget and knowing certain ideas needed to be thrown aside to get the game out. I get his logic from that perspective, but in terms of long-term interest, the game needs diversity and customization. It needs worthwhile stats.

DbD isn't great because it has fantastic graphics and stirring thought-provoking gameplay. It puts the control in the hands of the players to build up their characters and try different builds that might actually have an impact. I don't think we need a blood web per se, but I think need counselor stats to all be relevant and the perks we equip to them to be more than token complimentary coffees. Jason's stats also need some TLC.

Fixing perks is a good way to get the ball rolling towards better gameplay and reduction of stagnation.

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@Alkavian that second question was tough... CP still has to have a use. If you could just buy the perk you want and upgrade it, CP would be useless pretty fast. Obviously that would depend on how it gets upgraded.

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13 hours ago, Truth said:

@Alkavian that second question was tough... CP still has to have a use. If you could just buy the perk you want and upgrade it, CP would be useless pretty fast. Obviously that would depend on how it gets upgraded.

Honestly, I'd say that you buy the perk with CP. And have to perform actions to "unlock" the potential to upgrade it to the next rarity. Each time you paid the unlock the value for the next rarity it would exponentially increase. The required actions would also increase between each upgrade.

Example:

Buy basic perk for 500 CP > perform minimum qualifying actions to be able to upgrade it> Pay 875 CP (x1.75 of previous cost).  Repeat for each new rarity.

Cost as follows:  500 (Buy-in), 875, 1531, 2680, 4690, and legendary at 8207.

If you had the perk Hypochondriac for instance, you might have to use a med spray 10 times from buy-in to be offered the upgrade cost of 875CP. To get offered the next rarity to buy up the perk you might have to use a med spray 30 more times. Then use a med spray 60 times more after....then 120 times to unlock legendary....I hope this makes sense. Actions would have to be completed (investing time in gameplay related to the perk), and then CP could be spent to buy the next tier. Maybe also add the option to spend extra CP on a perk to offset (buy-down) negatives?

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58 minutes ago, Alkavian said:

If you had the perk Hypochondriac for instance, you might have to use a med spray 10 times from buy-in to be offered the upgrade cost of 875CP. To get offered the next rarity to buy up the perk you might have to use a med spray 30 more times. Then use a med spray 60 times more after....then 120 times to unlock legendary....I hope this makes sense. Actions would have to be completed (investing time in gameplay related to the perk), and then CP could be spent to buy the next tier. Maybe also add the option to spend extra CP on a perk to offset (buy-down) negatives?

If they did this with pyramids (sorry I'm shameless), I think we would have a better system than another game or even a couple of future games. You'd have a real progression system, that encourages play, and makes counselors feel more unique. I actually feel pretty confident saying that this would #Savecrystallake. I know the first complaint will be it crushes Jason but we have talked in the other thread so, there're possible ways to stop that and make it feel how they wanted this patch to feel, like a fresh start. You would need to choose your path carefully maybe unlocking all the pyramids at the lowest level or going full legendary on your favourite. There's a lot of potential buried in this game.

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12 minutes ago, Slasher_Clone said:

 There's a lot of potential buried in this game.

There certainly is. I hope the Devs listen and consider options beyond what we have. If the game had been at a better state of polish 6 months ago, perhaps some of the ideas floating around in the suggestions box might have already become a reality. I can only hope they finally nail down the flailing pieces in the game so we can try to improve on the basics that came with launch a year ago.

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2 minutes ago, Alkavian said:

There certainly is. I hope the Devs listen and consider options beyond what we have. If the game had been at a better state of polish 6 months ago, perhaps some of the ideas floating around in the suggestions box might have already become a reality. I can only hope they finally nail down the flailing pieces in the game so we can try to improve on the basics that came with launch a year ago.

I really couldn't agree more.

People seem to think I don't respect all the other people making excellent and interesting suggestions, but I spend far to much time on here because I like hearing other people's ideas. They start little cascades in my head, letting me work out semi related things. I would be happy if they took anyone's good ideas, there are plenty I haven't even read yet.

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2 hours ago, Alkavian said:

I hope this makes sense

It does, and I would've voted for that...

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13 hours ago, Truth said:

It does, and I would've voted for that...

Thanks. It is @AldermachXI who deserves the credit though. He has been an advocate for some form of experience/CP progression on perks even before me.

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