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Maggot Head

Does Jason need his Stun Cooldown back?

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@Maggot Head Thank you, i've  been saying this countless times.
And i always try to give strenght to people who can realize the current reality of the gameplay for Jasons nowadays.

Jason needs something NOW,, be immunity for some period, or increase difficulty to cause stuns, or increase chance of breaking the weapon. We really need something that gives an end to the Pinata-Jason.

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On 6/6/2018 at 1:44 AM, BeepBeepRichie said:

 When was it removed? Jason still has that invulnerability. Also, you don't seem like a very good Jason if you don't know that the easy way to avoid this is to block. Really isn't that hard. Only casual players complain about "chain-stunning". People who play in high-levels don't because they know how to block attacks...

Lol. Again with the "just block bro" comments. I've said it time and time again. Blocking is flat out unresponsive for any group of counselors with precise timing. I know this as someone who's able to exploit it from the counselors end.

Go into a private match with someone who's willing. Have them try to play footsies with you and you try to block and punish. Chances are, you'll block and they'll simply refuse to swing because they see you blocking. That's if they're smart. If you DO get lucky enough to bait the swing from them (which they would only do if they're not smart), and you manage to activate combat stance into block fast enough to block it, you may be able to deactivate the block fast enough in order to punish with a raw slash (combat stance slash is um...not advised.). This is how I've taken out multitude's of counselors, and even then I still consider it unreliable at best. But that's against ONE counselor. Now imagine this scenario with 3-5 people all around you, and then take into account that a block can still be ignored and a stun can go through anyway. It's amazingly lopsided towards the counselors either way you slice it. While you're trying to block one person and punish their advances/attacks, someone else beside or behind you is going to stun you when you're attempting to go into a block, come out of a block, slash, or, grab. This wouldn't be an issue if slashing was safe on hit, or if there were actual ways to aim at who you're looking at in CS (not because block doesn't work 360 degrees, but rather so you can actually punish the correct person you want to and strafe/move strategically around a group), but again, I don't expect this kind of finesse from Gun/Illfonic so I went the easy route and suggested the stun cooldown be added back. Hell even if it was just a bug at first, it did wonders.

Don't mean to shoot down your "git gud" mentality but the truth of it is, combat is just trash on Jason's end. If you don't think it is, then you haven't fought a group of counselors that knows what it's doing yet. The ONLY concrete strat is evasion. And while evasion will keep you from getting killed...that's just not Jason.

 

Bit of a thread necromance here, but I figured why not, since the devs can ONLY work on balance again now. Maybe combat will be the first thing they prioritize.

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All the devs do is nerf jason every patch...part of the big reason most of the players left(other than all the damn bugs) was jason constantly getting nerfed. Makes you wonder if the devs even play their own game. Most of the guys on here who think because they haven't been killed as jason or say "just block bro" have never played a group of skilled counselors who absolutely just wreck jason.  I was in some games with a group of korean players who literally killed jason 8 times in a row. It was embarassing how easy it was to do....jason had no chance due to all his movement nerfs. 1st and 2nd generation jason was the strongest...now he's nothing more than a punching bag for skilled vanessa/chad players(or any counselor who times his predictable grab now). I have over 1300 hours on the game and have only been killed once as Jason and that was by this korean team, it was impossible to kill them no matter how skilled the Jason was. I have been jason over 1,000 times and love this game but after this last patch on jason's grab I just shook my head at another bad decision the devs have made to which nobody was complaining about. ?

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On 6/3/2018 at 4:03 AM, CountYorgaVampir said:

Actually, the thing you can do with being surrounded by a group of people chain stunning you is to combat stance: block. But in spirit I agree with the rest of what you said. 

I have a rebuttal to that. Check my video: When an attack lands on Jason's block, he drops his block(it's not me letting go of block button), and then you have to let go of block and then press it again to re-engage it. Add to that there is a time limit in-between letting go of block and attacking, which is a good 1 or 2 round seconds, which is a lot longer than you think it is in the middle of combat with many people.

Blocking while surrounded does nothing because you'll drop your block and get whacked into next week repeatedly.

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Even the slightest bit of block immunity would help the ridiculousness of Counselors gang beating Jason.

Jason wacks counselors with a melee attack..  Counselor barely flinches.   And then can heal in 1 second.

Counselors wacks Jason with melee weapon.  Jason stands there or falls on his ass for 5-10 seconds.   Which can be repeated over and over.

 

Im no mathematician.  But even Stevie Wonder can see that this shit doesn't add up.

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Jason totally needs his stun cooldown back.

Also, since the new engine update/new grab animation, you can no longer use counselors as a human shield when you're holding them, which is total and complete BS. It makes Jason even more helpless against groups now.

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@Maggot Head You describe the issues rather well... and a stun immunity may well help. But counselors exploiting the double tap to remove the mask is what makes it so easy to get it off of him... I have said it before, and I will say it again, Jason needs the ability to block when coming out of a stun or any other canned animation for that matter... to make it harder to get the mask off. Pinata Jason... or chain stunning... or whatever anyone wants to call it... is only part of the problem here. Combat is just wonky... which you made several good points about too... that auto lock is annoying without the ability to change targets. It has its uses, but personally, I tend not to rely on aim assistance... others do find it useful in some circumstances, but against groups it is a hinderance.
   I do not agree that counselor's should get any indicator that Jason has a stun immunity though.... They would just stay out of range until the stun immunity is over as they can after all, move faster than him.

@Truth  Jason running away from counselors as a strategy should never need to even be considered... The reason given for the speed boost buff on Jason was that they were seeing Jasons running away from groups of counselors. I do not think they intended that he should be able to run away quicker as most can run faster than him... it was meant to make him seem more fearsome. Besides, morphing away is only postponing the same thing happening again... these groups stick together and nothing you can do is going to make them separate. Although some groups will have one break off as bait to draw Jason back in for more piñata action.

@CountYorgaVampir  @BeepBeepRichie Learning how to block is not the problem and never was... Generally, the people talking about this as a problem have been around long enough to learn to block rather well. Blocking is useless against any counselor with a brain in their head who knows not to waste a hit from their weapon durability on a block, and waits until you come out of block to punish... This is extremely easy for groups to do even when Jason's block was not slowed before the update. You do, of course remember that they move faster than Jason, particularly when he is in combat stance.... of course you do.
   Another argument I have seen... morph away and force them to split up. Exactly how would you force them to split up... you cannot force anyone to do anything. If they want to stick together, they will stick together... and people that like to play this way WILL stick together as it is the most effective way to use Jason as a piñata.
   In the end, whether you can or can't get Jason's mask off... the piñata Jason tactic puts him in rage mode way too early in a match and totally screws the other members of your team that were trying to get things done with stealth.

@VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow Excellent rebuttal with that video... and yes, blocking while surrounded is completely useless against smart players. Having to reengage the block after an attack is bullshit, particularly with the block being slowed as it is now.
   Your long distance throw at 17:42 looks good to me... but you have to make sure there is no hill in the way (it was hard to see that there was a hill in the way at first)... Who would put a hill there anyway?... The landscape planners in Crystal Lake leave much to be desired.

@Dolemite I agree, there is absolutely no reason Jason should not be able to "body block" with someone in his grip to use as a human shield... this is a huge nerf to Jason. An unarmed counselor can still "body block" an execution from starting by being in Jason's face (standing in the area required for the kill animation)… although for head punch and the dreaded choke, he just has to turn and all is good.

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Devs don't care guys...they continue to relentlessly nerf jason every damn patch no matter what our complaints are. I totally forgot to mention the nerf on body blocking, thanks @Dolemite, that is absolutely ridiculous...it was one of the few defenses jason had against groups. Of course...devs once again favor the counselors and take it away from Jason. ? The game shouldn't be called "Friday 13th" anymore but more like "Happy Days at Camp Crystal" because nobody fears jason like they used too. All you get now is people dancing on your body, big groups chasing you down as Jason runs in fear of not getting killed, counselors taunting you with no regard of ever dying....the devs have really screwed this game up bad and its no wonder less than 1,000 people play it now. They had such a goldmine with this game despite all of the legal B.S. that recently happened. Let us never forget guys...it wasn't Jason who failed us but the developers who refused to listen to our complaints.latest?cb=20120603030521

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1 hour ago, Max Walker said:

Devs don't care guys...they continue to relentlessly nerf jason every damn patch no matter what our complaints are. I totally forgot to mention the nerf on body blocking, thanks @Dolemite, that is absolutely ridiculous...it was one of the few defenses jason had against groups. Of course...devs once again favor the counselors and take it away from Jason. ? The game shouldn't be called "Friday 13th" anymore but more like "Happy Days at Camp Crystal" because nobody fears jason like they used too. All you get now is people dancing on your body, big groups chasing you down as Jason runs in fear of not getting killed, counselors taunting you with no regard of ever dying....the devs have really screwed this game up bad and its no wonder less than 1,000 people play it now. They had such a goldmine with this game despite all of the legal B.S. that recently happened. Let us never forget guys...it wasn't Jason who failed us but the developers who refused to listen to our complaints.latest?cb=20120603030521

Testify!

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Jason is currently unable to adequately handle groups of players in combat.  His entire grab animation has more frames leading it to be now easily punished,  not to mention the removal of body-shielding completely make grab useless with more than 1 armed counselor involved.  Quick block is not viable anymore and Jason can get randomly stunned while blocking a barrage of counselors swinging at him as @Maggot Head stated.  Jason's best option is to avoid direct combat and try to pick off kills some other way, though shift and stalk. 

Unfortunately, there is times when Jason is forced to fight head-on, mostly during controlling objectives.   While I've been a counselor main, the past week and a half I've been putting majority of my efforts playing Jason, using my proficiency with combat-oriented counsoler with Jason.  Despite Jason lacking in combat ablities, I've manage to be pretty successful with him with a bad game here and there. 

 

To anyone having problems/frustrations playing Jason, I offer some advice: 

-Play Part 3 Jason w/machete, he is the least bad one .   It sucks that he doesn't have destruction for doors, but he does have a regular shift and the valuable Weapon Strength, 5 traps, and normal HP.  While people claim +Can Run isn't good, it does allow you to set spacing easier when dealing for groups, and as well as avoid the counter attack easier after a well spaced slash.  Also, learn how to do a "2-hit" combo with quick draw knives into slash, as Weapon Strength Jasons will instantly cripple a full health non-thickskin counselor, placing them in a tight situation especially if they are alone.  I like Part 8 as well, while destruction is good, the lack of Weapon Strength hurts him with how the gimped the grab is now.  Oh, if you have Savini, then use him.

-Practice with offline bot.  Don't really use it for killing bot, but use it to practice Jason's game mechanics, improving your map knowledge, and planning out good objective routes.

- Be a slasher.  There is a stigma about Jason's slashing.  You shouldn't care.  Learn the max range for Jason's swing, so you can bail to avoid the counter attack.  If they start to block, then go for a grab, take their PK at the very least.

-Use only one trap per objective.  Placing two or more just encourages them to tank them all with the medic perk.  Traps are not a deterrent, they are a early warning.  Its better to keep a few extra traps to re-trap than have counselors just tank them before you even have shift.

- If they mob up, do a head count.  If the mob are nowhere near an objective, deal with them later, go after the lone person perhaps near the objective.  If everyone is in the mob, then no one is working on objectives.  Lure them into chasing you into a area with low cabin density, as they will eventually waste their weapons.  Block (or take the stuns) until that happens, then go after them as they scatters.  Chase after the most vulnerable one who "thinks" they are getting away.  Watch out for machetes.

-Never give a counselor a 2nd chance.  If you manage to ether cripple or exhaust a counselor and they ether have a prop or unarmed, slash them to death.  Don't take the risk for a grab, as if they have a PK, they'll heal/gain stamina and now have to chase/spead time on them all over again.  Sure some else can pick up the PK now, but counselor's greatest strength is their numbers.  A Vanessa with 2 PK is less of a threat than a Vanessa and a LaChappa left alive.  More left alive, more that can potentially group up on you or force 2 or more objectives on you.

-If you have shift, you can use it to "block".  Due to the issues with the current quick-block, using shift to "block" is more reliable.  You can do this on reaction and punish with ether a grab or slash, but keep in mind, slash is punished on hit at close range.  While chain-stunning itself has been removed, counselors can still stun Jason just as he exits out of PK stun, post-kill, and double stun with firecracker.  Use shift here to get ether get out or block and punish, useful against aggressive groups.  Also, you can "Swing Cancel" out of a slash into a shift to "block" a counter attack.

-Learn to use stalk.  Stalk makes the VHS effect just like Morph and Shift.  Best used when you're out of your victim's sight (off their mini-map), as they can not predict where you're going to be.  It can also cover up shift so they won't see it coming.  A clever trick I do is use it inside a cabin while a counselor is running out of it.   I'll just wait with stalk, and they will generally run around trying to avoid the shift they think is coming.  Once they stop trying to juke (they are not wanting to waste all their stamina) is when I then shift.

-Do whatever you can to prevent Sweater Girl + Tommy.  They are Jason's kryptonite, and once they come together, counselors control the game.  As long as the possibility of a Jason-Kill exists, always watch out for machetes.

-Have fun.  We all have bad games, sometime a car gets out, boat, cops call, even killed, it happens.  Playing on tilt because a Chad keeps stunning you while tea-bagging and dancing isn't going to help you.  Think about what kinda Players you're up against (Do they want to fight, are they a kiter, are they a noob, etc...) and decide how best to dispatch them.  Think about mistakes and how you can handle it differently next time.  Jason is the DM, embrace that role.  He provides the challenge of everyone else surviving you.  If they get away, oh well, good shit on them :P.

 

To @ShiftySamurai , if you guys are making good with your balance adjustment promises, please consider these suggestions with your developers to improve Jason's combat capabilities.

- Give Jason invulnerable after any stun or post-kill animation, damage and stun.  2 seconds of invincablity is all that is needed for Jason to reposition himself, block, or morph out of harms way.

- Reduce Jason's total grab frames.  At least equal to the slash.  Right now the grab stays out way too long and is the easiest thing to punish on wiff.  By reducing the recovery just a little, it will still be punishable, but require more anticipation from the counselor.

- Bring back Body-shielding.  Before, making grab-saves consistently required proper timing, spacing, and positioning.  With it removed, in addition to the lack of friendly-fire, it's so braindead to make saves that even the least skilled of players now no longer fear Jason with multiple counselor are around.  The grab is useless when dealing with groups as is.

- Fix blocking.  According to @Tommy86, it's not a issue only when Jason is the host, but for most, quickly going from Combat-stance to block on reaction from a counselor swing is no longer feasible.  Please fix this, as well as being stunned randomly while Jason already been holding block up.

-Increase the "hit-stun" counselor take from Jason's swing. In fighting games, a move that is punishable on hit is a bad move to use.  When Jason hits a counselor with a swing, he can be counter-hit back without being able to block or stuff the counter-attack.  By slightly increasing the "hit stun" on counselors, counselor should be able to attempt to move or block before Jason's next swing, but if counselor tries to counter-attack, Jason can stuff it with his slash during the counselor's swing start-up.  Counselor's counter-attack off of a blocked attack is fine how it is.

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6 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

Use only one trap per objective.  Placing two or more just encourages them to tank them all with the medic perk.  Traps are not a deterrent, they are a early warning.  Its better to keep a few extra traps to re-trap than have counselors just tank them before you even have shift.

I've been saying this for months, and this is the first time I have seen anyone else say it. Everyone wants to use traps to kill counselors and that's not what they're for.

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I would like for traps to lose their lethality. Instead of dying in a trap they should become... trapped? Requiring a pk to escape.

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Just now, F134Ever86 said:

I would like for traps to lose their lethality. Instead of dying in a trap they should become... trapped? Requiring a pk to escape.

That would be too harsh.  No need to punish a player that extreme.

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5 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

That would be too harsh.  No need to punish a player that extreme.

I think death is more harsh. it could also cut down the number of pk's used on Jason. Keep in mind a trap would only really trap a player if stepping in it would cause death. The first trap you step on you could still open regularly. Also if youre trapped without a pk another player with one could free you.

Edited by F134Ever86

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3 minutes ago, F134Ever86 said:

I think death is more harsh. it could also cut down the number of pk's used on Jason. Keep in mind a trap would only really trap a player if stepping in it would cause death. The first trap you step on you could still open regularly. 

Well 3-4 pk on the map, forcing a player to just sit there because he doesn't have one isn't fun.  No one actually dies from a trap unless they are a noob or it's a Part 2 being a dick ?.  The trap mechanic is fine how it is, perhaps giving each Jason just 1 more trap for the sake of balancing.

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3 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

perhaps giving each Jason just 1 more trap for the sake of balancing.

Oh the hijinks I can imagine, if I had 8 traps to fuck around with.

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2 minutes ago, F134Ever86 said:

At least there would be a chance to still live versus joining the spectators.

What do you mean?  If you are stuck there, ether Jason will just kill you on the spot.... or.... just leave you there, kill others and come back for you later.  Private match, maybe someone will help you, only Jesus can help you in QP.

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14 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

What do you mean?  If you are stuck there, ether Jason will just kill you on the spot.... or.... just leave you there, kill others and come back for you later.  Private match, maybe someone will help you, only Jesus can help you in QP.

A friend with a pocket knife could free you. Jason wont morph to you 100% of the time. Its not 100% guaranteed youll live either. The way traps are now you will 100% die everytime if you step on one with low hp. If you have a fuse or keys ppl in qp would be more inclined to help. You could always lie too. You could also be used as bait for counselors to escape or by Jason to lure more victims. I think this feature would open up the gameplay significantly for the better. I prefer quality over quantity.

Edited by F134Ever86

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9 minutes ago, F134Ever86 said:

A friend with a pocket knife could free you.

Such people don't exist in QP.

9 minutes ago, F134Ever86 said:

The way traps are now you will 100% die everytime if you step on one with low hp.

Why would anyone be dumb enough to willingly walking into something you know will kill you?  I'm not even going to walk over it if it cripples me without a health spray.

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1 hour ago, GeneiJin said:

Quick block is not viable anymore and Jason can get randomly stunned while blocking a barrage of counselors swinging at him as @Maggot Head stated. 

Not true. Blocking is still viable, the problem is simply that there is longer entry time going into block if you are not host. I've already talked to a dev about this and it is a high priority fix. Jason cannot be stunned while holding block either, I've been reading this on here lately and it is misinformation that should not be spread. I might update this post later with a video of me breaking all weapons in the match on Jason while he is holding block. It simply cannot happen, the only stun Jason will receive when blocking is the one on demask, and that is only practical with a max Str character using a machete. It depends entirely on chance for Jason to receive full damage while he is blocking (but not a stun), otherwise the damage on block is too minimal to demask. We are talking 4/5 dmg with machete from 10 Str counselor on a heavy hit, compared to 80 on a hit that wasn't blocked.

1 hour ago, GeneiJin said:

-Increase the "hit-stun" counselor take from Jason's swing. In fighting games, a move that is punishable on hit is a bad move to use.  When Jason hits a counselor with a swing, he can be counter-hit back without being able to block or stuff the counter-attack.  By slightly increasing the "hit stun" on counselors, counselor should be able to attempt to move or block before Jason's next swing, but if counselor tries to counter-attack, Jason can stuff it with his slash during the counselor's swing start-up.  Counselor's counter-attack off of a blocked attack is fine how it is.

Technically a slash block can be performed, the way to describe it is as a 1 frame block directly after the slash animation finishes. If you block too early, the block will simply not come out as no other inputs are registered during the slash animation, so you must do it exactly after it finishes. Luckily you have the throwing knife indicator to help with timing, it is dimmed during slash but lights up again after the animation - that's when you block. You must also do the slash in combat stance so that there is no additional delay going into block. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether the slash block works against a counselor with max Swift perk, but for one without it does work and will prevent the counter hit simply due to the animation time on counselor swing. This is probably another thing I should make a guide for.

I will give an example to show the way combat between counselor and Jason works. Let's say you have a counselor block your slash, they do have recovery frames on block however as soon as they take a hit, all recovery frames are cancelled because they enter a new "damaged" animation. Let's also say you hit them during their swing, same deal - their recovery on swing is cancelled and they can just restart their swing immediately. It is this damaged animation which basically allows them to hit immediately back, without giving Jason reasonable time to block unless you use the technique I described above (which takes practice). I absolutely understand the FNG example, and what you say is logical in this regard. Increase hit stun to the point that Jason is given reasonable opportunity to block the counterhit, but with enough cooldown on his swing that he is unable to just keep slashing without punish, or without counselor even being able to block / move away. Otherwise you are of course punishing for even a correct read, which is the way it's always been unfortunately.
 

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15 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

Not true. Blocking is still viable, the problem is simply that there is longer entry time going into block if you are not host. I've already talked to a dev about this and it is a high priority fix.

Yea, I was referring to CS -> Block.   As you stated, because of the addition "start-up" time when not hosting, Quick blocking isn't doable on reaction and requires a hard read before the couselor's swing starts.  Glad to know the dev are on top of it.

15 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

Jason cannot be stunned while holding block either, I've been reading this on here lately and it is misinformation that should not be spread.

I didn't have this issue until after the engine update.  For example, I'll already be in CS Block, holding it.  I'll block the first 2 swings, then suddenly the 3rd swing suddenly stun me, I never released block.  Of course when I tested this against the bot I never had this issue, which leads me to believe its a bug, probably network related.  You know I'm on PC, so there is no "host" so I can't test that while hosting.

15 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

Technically a slash block can be performed, the way to describe it is as a 1 frame block directly after the slash animation finishes. If you block too early, the block will simply not come out as no other inputs are registered during the slash animation, so you must do it exactly after it finishes. Luckily you have the throwing knife indicator to help with timing, it is dimmed during slash but lights up again after the animation. You must also do the slash in combat stance so that there is no additional delay going into block. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether the slash block works against a counselor with max Swift perk, but for one without it does work and will prevent the counter hit simply due to the animation time on counselor swing. This is probably another thing I should make a guide for.

Good to know, thank you.  I'll add that to my testing to see how viable it is.  I suspect though a Max Swift will still hit while in recovery from the slash.  Slash-canceling Shift straight up work though.

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