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Maggot Head

Does Jason need his Stun Cooldown back?

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30 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

Yea, I was referring to CS -> Block.   As you stated, because of the addition "start-up" time when not hosting, Quick blocking isn't doable on reaction and requires a hard read before the couselor's swing starts.  Glad to know the dev are on top of it.

Right, I get you. Whereas before you could react with block during counselor swing start up, as both host and client, you now have to basically guess when the hit is going to come. So it all comes down to a read which makes it less reliable.

30 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

I didn't have this issue until after the engine update.  For example, I'll already be in CS Block, holding it.  I'll block the first 2 swings, then suddenly the 3rd swing suddenly stun me, I never released block.  Of course when I tested this against the bot I never had this issue, which leads me to believe its a bug, probably network related.  You know I'm on PC, so there is no "host" so I can't test that while hosting.

Yeah it would be a network related bug I think. I can post a video later like I said, proving it shouldn't be possible.

30 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

Good to know, thank you.  I'll add that to my testing to see how viable it is.  I suspect though a Max Swift will still hit while in recovery from the slash.  Slash-canceling Shift straight up work though.

No problem, hope it works out. I also suspect that it won't work against max Swift but it is something to try at least. I haven't even had the opportunity to hit a slash-blocking Jason with max Swift, because I have never seen anyone do it other than me. ?

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24 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

Yeah it would be a network related bug I think. I can post a video later like I said, proving it shouldn't be possible.?

I was certain it wasn't a problem from the previous patch.  Since the engine update, anything to do with combat stance seems to be wonky.

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13 hours ago, Ahab said:


@CountYorgaVampir  @BeepBeepRichie Learning how to block is not the problem and never was... Generally, the people talking about this as a problem have been around long enough to learn to block rather well. Blocking is useless against any counselor with a brain in their head who knows not to waste a hit from their weapon durability on a block, and waits until you come out of block to punish... This is extremely easy for groups to do even when Jason's block was not slowed before the update. You do, of course remember that they move faster than Jason, particularly when he is in combat stance.... of course you do.
   Another argument I have seen... morph away and force them to split up. Exactly how would you force them to split up... you cannot force anyone to do anything. If they want to stick together, they will stick together... and people that like to play this way WILL stick together as it is the most effective way to use Jason as a piñata.
   In the end, whether you can or can't get Jason's mask off... the piñata Jason tactic puts him in rage mode way too early in a match and totally screws the other members of your team that were trying to get things done with stealth.
 

4

 The easy thing to do as Jason is get the ones who aren't with the group. After you've gotten them, it's really not hard to make those in a group scatter. You don't have to stay blocking at all times, obviously, that will make them stop attacking, but be smart and predict when they'll start attacking and block as many of those as you can. You may get stunned, sure, but they'll run out of weapons very soon(especially with the new nerf to durability) and you'll be able to kill one off quickly. Of course, once their weapons break, they'll scatter into houses attempting to find new ones, leaving some who do have weapons out in the open. This is the perfect opportunity to kill off those who have split up from the group or outmaneuver the ones there with weapons and kill them.

 Another strategy is to use knives and slash as many of them as you can. I've seen it done before, especially if they're trying to get your mask off. They'll keep attacking even if you're blocking.

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22 hours ago, Maggot Head said:

Lol. Again with the "just block bro" comments. I've said it time and time again. Blocking is flat out unresponsive for any group of counselors with precise timing. I know this as someone who's able to exploit it from the counselors end.

Go into a private match with someone who's willing. Have them try to play footsies with you and you try to block and punish. Chances are, you'll block and they'll simply refuse to swing because they see you blocking. That's if they're smart. If you DO get lucky enough to bait the swing from them (which they would only do if they're not smart), and you manage to activate combat stance into block fast enough to block it, you may be able to deactivate the block fast enough in order to punish with a raw slash (combat stance slash is um...not advised.). This is how I've taken out multitude's of counselors, and even then I still consider it unreliable at best. But that's against ONE counselor. Now imagine this scenario with 3-5 people all around you, and then take into account that a block can still be ignored and a stun can go through anyway. It's amazingly lopsided towards the counselors either way you slice it. While you're trying to block one person and punish their advances/attacks, someone else beside or behind you is going to stun you when you're attempting to go into a block, come out of a block, slash, or, grab. This wouldn't be an issue if slashing was safe on hit, or if there were actual ways to aim at who you're looking at in CS (not because block doesn't work 360 degrees, but rather so you can actually punish the correct person you want to and strafe/move strategically around a group), but again, I don't expect this kind of finesse from Gun/Illfonic so I went the easy route and suggested the stun cooldown be added back. Hell even if it was just a bug at first, it did wonders.

Don't mean to shoot down your "git gud" mentality but the truth of it is, combat is just trash on Jason's end. If you don't think it is, then you haven't fought a group of counselors that knows what it's doing yet. The ONLY concrete strat is evasion. And while evasion will keep you from getting killed...that's just not Jason.

 

Bit of a thread necromance here, but I figured why not, since the devs can ONLY work on balance again now. Maybe combat will be the first thing they prioritize.

4

 As someone who actually plays with good Jasons, I can assure you this is not the case at all.

 Not only is block safe, but it has easy ways to punish. First of all, all of your arguments rely on the fact that counselors will literally be pushing up against your ass attacking at separate times in order to hit that one second that you're not blocking which isn't as common as you guys make it out to be. Secondly, there are safe attacks you can do out of combat stance. One being throwing a knife and quickly go back in. It's also very easy to come out of CS quickly by pressing the sprint button on the joystick or on the keyboard(whichever console you're using).

 Also, you're saying that you, as a Jason, will need to be blocking 24/7 when against one counselor.... what? Slash at them, they'll be forced to retreat or attack, Jason's swings ALWAYS have priority unless a counselor's comes out way before his. You don't have to bait a swing to attack first, that's not even close to a good strategy.

Again, each one of your arguments assumes that every single counselor group is extremely coordinated and stays within inches of Jason. If you block at random times and back out of the group, they will attack a few times. Run up to them, slash, and block. Their weapons will run out soon enough, and you'll be able to kill them off. Or throw knives out of block and make them waste their sprays. Your strategy as Jason is literally just to stand still and block and wait for them to attack. No, they will chase after you if you try to block and move away at the same time, giving you ample time to swing at a counselor who is in front of the others and go back into block. Seriously, counselors don't stay in a circle formation at all times, they're human players.

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7 hours ago, GeneiJin said:

Also, learn how to do a "2-hit" combo with quick draw knives into slash, as Weapon Strength Jasons will instantly cripple a full health non-thickskin counselor, placing them in a tight situation especially if they are alone

You will also cripple them without +Weapon strength. I Always use it if a counselor jumps through a window where I am already Standing (just in case if they have a pocket knife).

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24 minutes ago, The Wolf with that Toast said:

You will also cripple them without +Weapon strength. I Always use it if a counselor jumps through a window where I am already Standing (just in case if they have a pocket knife).

Im not referring to the Double window damage, I quick draw knive into slash to punish wiffed swings.

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12 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

Im not referring to the Double window damage, I quick draw knive into slash to punish wiffed swings.

I also don´t talk About the window Damage. 

Window Damage +  +Weapon strength = cripple

Knife + Slash (neutral strength) = cripple

If we go by the assumed numbers ( I hope they are Right) :

20 (from the Window Damage) + 30 (+WS) = 50 =cripple : So if  you Slash them after they hop through a broken window with weapon Strength + , then they are also crippled.

30 (from the knife) + 20 (Neutral Slash) = 50 = cripple : If I use Part II , V , VI , VIII or IX , I can throw a knife and Slash them , they will also be crippled. 

 30 (from the knife) + 30 (from weapon strength+) = 60 (this would be Overkill Damage , I think [or overcripple Damage])

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Take a look at this vid, it shows that Jason did indeed have immunity frames while recovering from stuns, counselor breaking free from his grasp etc. Also apparently a Machete could mess up the kill, as well: 

 

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4 hours ago, BeepBeepRichie said:

 As someone who actually plays with good Jasons, I can assure you this is not the case at all.

 Not only is block safe, but it has easy ways to punish. 

Block doesn't work correctly at the moment.  It has a delay before working now. Which means, that you have to block much earlier..  

 

Despite that.. It makes ZERO sense to be able to stun Jason so easily/consistently.

MELEE Stun immunity for at least 5-10 seconds after being MELEE stunned 5-10 to me..  is fair and balanced.

 

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Engaging Jason in combat should NEVER be a viable option, IMHO.  It should be a last-ditch desperation move used to buy time and get away.  Any game where counselors feel that running TOWARD Jason is a good idea is, frankly, doing a disservice to the characters and the films.

If stun cooldown can correct that, then I'm all for it.

 

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10 second cool down would be ridiculous. 3 would be fair as it gives you enough time to move or block.

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11 hours ago, The Wolf with that Toast said:

I also don´t talk About the window Damage. 

Window Damage +  +Weapon strength = cripple

Knife + Slash (neutral strength) = cripple

If we go by the assumed numbers ( I hope they are Right) :

20 (from the Window Damage) + 30 (+WS) = 50 =cripple : So if  you Slash them after they hop through a broken window with weapon Strength + , then they are also crippled.

30 (from the knife) + 20 (Neutral Slash) = 50 = cripple : If I use Part II , V , VI , VIII or IX , I can throw a knife and Slash them , they will also be crippled. 

 30 (from the knife) + 30 (from weapon strength+) = 60 (this would be Overkill Damage , I think [or overcripple Damage])

Thanks for the clarification.  I didn't have the exact damage values before.

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I think the values he has are right except for the window. I think if you climb through it's only 10%. If you dive through you take 20%. Otherwise he's spot on I believe. 

3 hours ago, GeneiJin said:

Thanks for the clarification.  I didn't have the exact damage values before.

 

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On ‎6‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 4:26 AM, BeepBeepRichie said:

 The easy thing to do as Jason is get the ones who aren't with the group. After you've gotten them, it's really not hard to make those in a group scatter. You don't have to stay blocking at all times, obviously, that will make them stop attacking, but be smart and predict when they'll start attacking and block as many of those as you can. You may get stunned, sure, but they'll run out of weapons very soon(especially with the new nerf to durability) and you'll be able to kill one off quickly. Of course, once their weapons break, they'll scatter into houses attempting to find new ones, leaving some who do have weapons out in the open. This is the perfect opportunity to kill off those who have split up from the group or outmaneuver the ones there with weapons and kill them.

 Another strategy is to use knives and slash as many of them as you can. I've seen it done before, especially if they're trying to get your mask off. They'll keep attacking even if you're blocking.

  You are telling me strategies that I figured out in my first game.... well, maybe my second game. As I have stated many times.... I do not have a problem dealing with groups, but that in no way means or implies that piñata Jason is not a joke... because it IS a joke. 
  Be smart and block? Great advice for before the entry into block was slowed... it does not work so well since it was slowed. Someone stated above it is only slowed when you are the host... on PC, the only time you could be called a host is when you have map selection. The block is still slowed even when you are not the one selecting the map... so at least on PC, their statement is false... I cannot speak to consoles as I do not play on them.... and even before the block was slowed, piñata Jason was still a joke. Either way, the slow entry into block is only relevant against an incoming attack... it is not relevant against players that know better than to waste their weapon durability. 
  A group of smart players, and yes there actually are smart players... do not waste weapon durability when you are blocking. Jason has no chance of catching up to ANY counselor when he is blocking, and after you come out of block to try and do something... back to the issue with getting into block being slowed. It can be a very long time before a group of high luck counselors need to find even one weapon... and smart players do not let the one stray from the group as this is the easiest way to lose one of their numbers. When one needs a weapon, the group can protect the one... Jason has to follow if he wants to kill them. Really not hard to make the group scatter... only if you are playing against noobs. People do tend to learn from their mistakes.
  If they want to continue to beat on Jason... he is not hard to find, unless he is hiding in the water... you cannot force a group to follow you, although some will... that does not mean all will.  As soon as all of them are armed again... they will be right back to looking for you if you did not follow them. The time limit is on the counselor's side, not Jason's. Although getting counselors to follow you is a "tactic", it does not work as well as you suggest, unless playing against noobs or extremely impatient players... and it also suggests that Jason should run from groups of counselors. As I pointed out before, Jason running from counselors is the reason given as to why he got buffed with his speed.... anyone suggesting Jason should run from counselors at all should expect to have more buffs to Jason that they will inevitably be complaining about.
   Most of us do not want to see Jason continually buffed, we simply want the combat fixed and / or balanced better. It still needs some tweaks. Remember, Jason is supposed to be over powered... and it is supposed to actually be difficult to kill him.
   Either way, everything in every game is situational. It depends on who you are playing with or against and the strategies used by both Jason and counselors.... its when you run into a group that cannot work well together that Jason has an easy time of it... even if the Jason player is relatively new.

@GeneiJin That was a long and very descriptive list of good advice... I actually never thought to use shift in place of block as using shift seems like running away, and I am against running away when playing Jason... Also, the recharge time on shift makes it limited for the amount of times you can use it... but I will give it a try.
   Against a lone counselor, even with swift attacker... if your quick throw hits, then an immediate grab cannot miss as they were already lined up in your crosshairs and moving towards you.... they only have so many pocket knives. I will generally slash against any who want to fight, but I really want to get as many grab kills in as I can. Grab kills can be my Kryptonite with the accursed double tap... but I will not use grab against groups at all unless forced, like when you stop a carload of counselors... you still have to "grab" the one in the driver's seat.
   It still amazes me how many battle Chads still cry when you slash them. I always get a laugh out of that.

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1 hour ago, Bropollocreed79 said:

After he regains his stance and is out of animation lock, correct?

Yes. Once he's completely out of stun animation. 

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3 hours ago, Ahab said:


@GeneiJin That was a long and very descriptive list of good advice... I actually never thought to use shift in place of block as using shift seems like running away, and I am against running away when playing Jason... Also, the recharge time on shift makes it limited for the amount of times you can use it... but I will give it a try.
   Against a lone counselor, even with swift attacker... if your quick throw hits, then an immediate grab cannot miss as they were already lined up in your crosshairs and moving towards you.... they only have so many pocket knives. I will generally slash against any who want to fight, but I really want to get as many grab kills in as I can. Grab kills can be my Kryptonite with the accursed double tap... but I will not use grab against groups at all unless forced, like when you stop a carload of counselors... you still have to "grab" the one in the driver's seat.
   It still amazes me how many battle Chads still cry when you slash them. I always get a laugh out of that.

Yes, unfortunately you have to make that choice to burn shift, but you can get many players by surprise.  Generally if a Jason tries to evade or block a possiable swing, a smart counselor will respect Jason enough not to make a unwise swing.   By just walking straight with no intentions of evading, you may fool a counselor into thinking you're a bad Jason, ready to shift-block that swing.  Some other things I noticed is whenever Jason goes into a recoil animation, such as when his swing makes contact with a wall, that recoil can be grab-canceled.  If you're in a tight spot trying to get a counselor, you can swing, and if it hits a table or whatever, you can try to grab.  Same thing against a wall near a window a counselor trying to crawl though it.  I haven't got a chance to test this yet (because bots don't every use CS-block), but if a counselor blocks a swing, I think you can cancel the recoil into a grab before they can counter-attack.  A Jason actually did this to me last night, so that's why I think this is possible. 

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

  You are telling me strategies that I figured out in my first game.... well, maybe my second game. As I have stated many times.... I do not have a problem dealing with groups, but that in no way means or implies that piñata Jason is not a joke... because it IS a joke.

I think Jason can still be effective, but he requires knowledge and understanding of how he is flawed and mitigating it.   Most players, however, don't every think about it and will be bully/killed once they join the wrong lobby.  They tend to only use Shift as an offensive tool, but it can also to used for mobility,positioning, and pressuring using Shift-grab only when counselors can't see it coming.  Stalk is actually Jason's most powerful tool, as it allow you to "trick" the other players or keep them guessing.  If you showed them once you can effectively use stalk, then it allows you to morph away more often, the counselors you left behind will have to guess whether you're still there or not.  I also remember every door I knocked down, so If I see them with Sense from a far distance, I'll morph to the general area, but out of their view, then shift into a cabin they may enter for a suprise >:D

Jason is best played as a predictor.  Don't let them see you coming, and make your strikes quick.  Don't fight them if you don't have to, unless they are foolishly over aggressive and you can easily take advantage of it.

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@GeneiJin Never thought of grab cancelling when a weapon gets stuck in a wall. I will try that out too.
   Stalk is awesome and I use it to good effect (most of the time)... along with playing Jason as a "predictor"... I have been trying to play without using shift to grab recently and have cleared a few lobbies without a single shift grab... although it is definitely harder to get 8/8 without using a shift grab and it has cost me a few kills here and there... the sacrifices we make to practice new strategies. Shift does have its uses for mobility and in conjunction with stalk, you can still get some jump scares... they are most obvious when done on people with an open mic. Its always satisfying to hear them scream for real... Jason can still be scary sometimes.

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16 hours ago, GeneiJin said:

Yes, unfortunately you have to make that choice to burn shift, but you can get many players by surprise.  Generally if a Jason tries to evade or block a possiable swing, a smart counselor will respect Jason enough not to make a unwise swing.   By just walking straight with no intentions of evading, you may fool a counselor into thinking you're a bad Jason, ready to shift-block that swing.  Some other things I noticed is whenever Jason goes into a recoil animation, such as when his swing makes contact with a wall, that recoil can be grab-canceled.  If you're in a tight spot trying to get a counselor, you can swing, and if it hits a table or whatever, you can try to grab.  Same thing against a wall near a window a counselor trying to crawl though it.  I haven't got a chance to test this yet (because bots don't every use CS-block), but if a counselor blocks a swing, I think you can cancel the recoil into a grab before they can counter-attack.  A Jason actually did this to me last night, so that's why I think this is possible. 

 

You can also immediately block after you hit a wall. Maybe that Jason was in Combat stance and cancelled it with a run?

13 hours ago, Ahab said:

@GeneiJin Never thought of grab cancelling when a weapon gets stuck in a wall. I will try that out too.
   Stalk is awesome and I use it to good effect (most of the time)... along with playing Jason as a "predictor"... I have been trying to play without using shift to grab recently and have cleared a few lobbies without a single shift grab... although it is definitely harder to get 8/8 without using a shift grab and it has cost me a few kills here and there... the sacrifices we make to practice new strategies. Shift does have its uses for mobility and in conjunction with stalk, you can still get some jump scares... they are most obvious when done on people with an open mic. Its always satisfying to hear them scream for real... Jason can still be scary sometimes.

I actually never shift-grab them while they´re Walking. I only Maybe shift-grab one Person sometimes in a match but that´s it.

I only shift-grab them , when I am sure that I will get them , like if they hop out a window , since I am very bad at shift-grabbing (that was atleast the case with the old grab , I haven´t tried the new one online yet). I only use shift in a chase to burn their Stamina...... Maybe I should try to use shift-grabs more often…..

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2 hours ago, The Wolf with that Toast said:

You can also immediately block after you hit a wall. Maybe that Jason was in Combat stance and cancelled it with a run?

I actually never shift-grab them while they´re Walking. I only Maybe shift-grab one Person sometimes in a match but that´s it.

I only shift-grab them , when I am sure that I will get them , like if they hop out a window , since I am very bad at shift-grabbing (that was atleast the case with the old grab , I haven´t tried the new one online yet). I only use shift in a chase to burn their Stamina...... Maybe I should try to use shift-grabs more often…..

   I do have an easier time shift grabbing with the new grab over the old grab. Stalk, morph and shift grab is the easiest way to deal with some of those incredibly skilled jukers… but it is, of course... not the only way to deal with them.
   Like many other players, I was heavily reliant on shift grabs, or shift slash... just trying to move away from that as much as I can to keep things interesting.
   To get through a game without shift grabbing anyone while you are playing against good players can be hard. Knowing where the morph pins are helps... and using stalk, a lot. I am using shift mostly just to get into easy knife range for quick throws... or to come up behind someone in a repair animation. You can also catch people off guard if they do not pan the camera around much and shift close up to them in stalk and approach from behind. It is harder to get those players that actually pay attention to their surroundings, of course... but I have got pretty damned good with the throwing knives... and, I have a pretty good idea where the knife spawns are.

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1 minute ago, Ahab said:

   I do have an easier time shift grabbing with the new grab over the old grab. Stalk, morph and shift grab is the easiest way to deal with some of those incredibly skilled jukers… but it is, of course... not the only way to deal with them.
   Like many other players, I was heavily reliant on shift grabs, or shift slash... just trying to move away from that as much as I can to keep things interesting.
   To get through a game without shift grabbing anyone while you are playing against good players can be hard. Knowing where the morph pins are helps... and using stalk, a lot. I am using shift mostly just to get into easy knife range for quick throws... or to come up behind someone in a repair animation. You can also catch people off guard if they do not pan the camera around much and shift close up to them in stalk and approach from behind. It is harder to get those players that actually pay attention to their surroundings, of course... but I have got pretty damned good with the throwing knives... and, I have a pretty good idea where the knife spawns are.

Throwing a knife out of stalk out of nowhere has deemed itself as Pretty useful too. The screams indicated that. Aswell as them limping. You just have to be a bit good at aiming them.

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14 minutes ago, The Wolf with that Toast said:

Throwing a knife out of stalk out of nowhere has deemed itself as Pretty useful too. The screams indicated that. Aswell as them limping. You just have to be a bit good at aiming them.

   Its amazing how far away you can hit someone with a throwing knife when you have enough practice... and yes... the screams are most satisfying.  

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