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Like my previous threads of this nature, I've decided to tackle a problem which has plagued Jason for some time now: killing him is too easy. Seriously, we've reached a point where one-hitting the mask off is possible, not to mention speed runs of this happening appearing all over the internet. It's something that needs to be addressed at some point if not in the near future, and I thought it would be a great time to bring up the issue by collecting some ideas I've come up with as well as ideas others have presented in the past.

As before, the posts will be broken up to catalogue a new idea in order to keep things tidy, and I'll re-edit this post to include an index of the ideas mentioned thus far. So, without further ado...

Index:

1. Increased Jason HP; Jason's mask isn't a guarantee to fall off at zero HP.

2. Removal of bonfire locations on the map, both small as well as large.

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I have so many issues with killing Jason, he moves when he kneels, hit registration, Tommy unable to press X, because the ability doesn’t appear. I’d fix it before adding a way with more bugs.

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Posted (edited)

1. Mask HP, and increasing the difficulty to knock Jason's mask off.

First, credit goes to @Alkavian for introducing me to this idea, albeit I made a few changes. Assuming that Jason has an HP of 100, and weapons do damage and so on, eventually Jason's HP would reach zero. However, the mask doesn't get knocked off at that point immediately. Instead, whenever Jason takes a hit at zero HP, there's a chance based on strength/luck that the mask will be knocked off. To give a rough idea, you get 1% per strength point as well as 1% per luck point to knock the mask off, and only bladed weapons (axe, machete) would be able to knock the mask off as well, further increasing the danger.

On top of this, Jason's natural HP would be much higher than it is currently, so just being able to reach zero HP would be difficult on its own (not to mention it further increases Jason's Rage with all the damage done). A rough estimate for an increase would perhaps be 3-4 times the amount of health he has right now so that it's still at least possible to do when you have a few high strength counselors on the team, but only then is it possible. With the added trouble of the mask not having a guarantee to fall off at zero HP, it means the mask falling off wouldn't be something that could easily be planned. It would instead be a "spur of the moment" deal where you were lucky enough to knock Jason's mask off.

Pros:

  • Strength counselors become far more important since they are the best equipped to fight Jason. Some high strength counselors like Adam have good composure, something that would be important since fighting Jason would be a prolonged encounter. Meanwhile, the only high luck counselor with any decent composure to fight Jason is Jenny, meaning those who panic quickly like Chad would suffer from a prolonged fight, therefore keeping strength counselors as the de facto best choice for trying to demask Jason.
  • Jason feels far more intimidating.
  • Kill Jason quests become far more difficult to plan in advance since you essentially have to get very lucky in order to knock the mask off. Even Tommy Jarvis would have, at best, a 20% chance, and he would still need a machete/axe to do this.

Cons:

  • Jason can still be harmed during his stun animation as of current times. A Buggzy with a machete could still down Jason's HP fast, so it's possible that Jason might need invulnerability while being stunned (or at least halved damage during a stun) in order to solve this problem.
Edited by Trident77

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Idea 2: Bonfires on the Map

One thing that inexperienced players won't know right off the bat is that Jason's shack typically replaces a bonfire when the map loads (I don't know Pinehurst yet, but I'm assuming it's the same for most if not all maps). As a result, coordinated groups with access to walkies/maps early are able to figure out relatively quickly where Jason's shack is, and while I would love more random locations that defy bonfire locations, it's simply easier to remove pinned bonfire locations on the map (both large as well as small).

Bonfires are useful for counselors because they reduce fear quickly, not to mention you occasionally find useful items there while sometimes staying far away from heavy traffic areas, so skilled counselors who learn where bonfires are on each map will take note. However, if their locations aren't known on the map, this increases the difficulty of finding safe places while searching for Jason's shack, not to mention counselors will no longer automatically know where the shack is just by looking at bonfire locations.

As a bonus for hero characters (since I'm assuming Jarvis will not be on the Grendel Map, hopefully), they will have the bonfires marked on their maps when starting off. They can they relay this information to teammates who are having difficulties finding Jason's shack on the map if it hasn't already been found yet.

Pros:

  • Jason's Shack becomes more difficult to find since players will not be able to determine where it is by using bonfire icons on the map to find them.
  • Encourages more cooperation between Tommy Jarvis/other counselors since only Tommy will know where bonfires are located.

Cons:

  • I'm guessing someone will eventually post all the possible locations of bonfires online for future maps, and if the devs don't change up the bonfire locations on pre-existing maps when this change happens you could just go by the old maps online to figure out bonfire locations. So this would really just affect the people who play this game casually who don't look up strategies online due to not caring about getting gud.
  • Change is kinda minor when considering the above con point, so it might not really do much to affect how easy it would be to kill Jason. This could be considered a pro in some ways since it wouldn't be gamebreaking.

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4 hours ago, Trident77 said:

 increasing the difficulty to knock Jason's mask off.

only bladed weapons (axe, machete) would be able to knock the mask off as well, further increasing the danger.

Please don't take away the ability of the Sacred Branch to demask from me. It's already a pretty rare occurrence for me. 

I like the bonfire idea. More Jason shack locations if possible would also be intriguing. 

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Sorry this sounds kinda dumb....

Its not the weapon that knocks the mask off, you can knock it off with any weapon if jason takes the required amount of damage. Not to mention if you limit that only bladed weps jason will literally become unkillable since all of them would break and be gone from the map.

The way it is now is fine, i wouldnt mind increasing jasons HP a bit more but that it, why change anything else if it is good the way it is? This is supposed to be a survival horror as close to the movie as possible, why people try to turn this into some fantasy game is beyond me.

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I say randomize 5 new locations to make it a big guessing game for councelors and once a player has the sweater jason gets instant sense lit up on all counselors until she uses it he can see! 

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3 hours ago, PowellCampsNAKED said:

I say randomize 5 new locations to make it a big guessing game for councelors and once a player has the sweater jason gets instant sense lit up on all counselors until she uses it he can see! 

Nope, Nope, Not Happening

Jason Will Most likely already have Rage Activated if they are going for a Kill, Demask First, Two People die, Get Sweater, Tommy is on the scene.

No point in adding this, Since Not everyone wants to partake in Killing Jason, Some Just want a Peaceful Escape, Which May Fuck up their plans.

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1 minute ago, SmugDoka said:

Nope, Nope, Not Happening

Jason Will Most likely already have Rage Activated if they are going for a Kill, Demask First, Two People die, Get Sweater, Tommy is on the scene.

No point in adding this, Since Not everyone wants to partake in Killing Jason, Some Just want a Peaceful Escape, Which May Fuck up their plans.

Yeah I could see people getting in verbal fights over someone getting the sweater lol! But my first part would be good!

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1 minute ago, PowellCampsNAKED said:

Yeah I could see people getting in verbal fights over someone getting the sweater lol! But my first part would be good!

I don't mind the Location Randomizing, But only for the Shack.

I'm not a fan of Killing Jason and Never do it My self, I'm usually fixing the cars,Boat or Phone box.

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6 hours ago, HateMe said:

Its not the weapon that knocks the mask off, you can knock it off with any weapon if jason takes the required amount of damage. Not to mention if you limit that only bladed weps jason will literally become unkillable since all of them would break and be gone from the map.

Machetes are one of the most durable weapons in the game, and @ThePunkPirate managed to calculate that axes deal roughly the same amount of damage as machetes do. It's more likely that a team won't find all the machetes/axes in a map rather than all of them breaking. Also, my idea would negate your first sentence when I said that "only bladed weapons can knock the mask off now."

6 hours ago, HateMe said:

The way it is now is fine, i wouldnt mind increasing jasons HP a bit more but that it, why change anything else if it is good the way it is? This is supposed to be a survival horror as close to the movie as possible, why people try to turn this into some fantasy game is beyond me.

An HP increase by itself wouldn't do much, especially since you can still hurt Jason while he's stunned. Anyone with 10 strength armed with a machete/axe is capable of taking out 80% of Jason's health using one heavy vertical strike, and if Jason took damage beforehand (say, a shotgun blast for instance) then you can easily knock the mask off. So even if you did a simple HP increase, like say 4x the current health, it still leads to high strength counselors beating up on Jason while he's stunned, so it's not really that difficult to knock the mask off even then with a coordinated group. Weapons like fire pokers as well as shotguns can help contribute to the killing as well.

Even worse, a Jason with -HP can have his mask one-shotted by Tommy Jarvis if he's equipped with any slugger perk that grants at least 11% or higher (so in other words, at least rare quality other than a 10% rare slugger).

I'm not trying to turn this game into fantasy, what I'm trying to do is return the game to what it should've been. Killing Jason was supposed to be difficult, yet there are guides out there making this brutally simple to do if you use machetes/axes with vertical attacks in combat stance (preferrably a machete because there's less chance to stun using one compared to an axe). You can even do this while Jason is distracted by the sweater, so after dealing a bit of damage you can safely demask Jason while he can only stare at his demise

When a horror survival game features a murderer who can easily be defeated, the game starts to become less frightening as well as less fun. The devs found that out the hard way when they acccidentally increased the number of pocket knives/med sprays/shotguns a few patches ago.

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13 hours ago, Trident77 said:

Like my previous threads of this nature, I've decided to tackle a problem which has plagued Jason for some time now: killing him is too easy. Seriously, we've reached a point where one-hitting the mask off is possible, not to mention speed runs of this happening appearing all over the internet. It's something that needs to be addressed at some point if not in the near future, and I thought it would be a great time to bring up the issue by collecting some ideas I've come up with as well as ideas others have presented in the past.

As before, the posts will be broken up to catalogue a new idea in order to keep things tidy, and I'll re-edit this post to include an index of the ideas mentioned thus far. So, without further ado...

Index:

1. Increased Jason HP; Jason's mask isn't a guarantee to fall off at zero HP.

2. Removal of bonfire locations on the map, both small as well as large.

Well, first they could give Jason, invulnerability frames, when recovering from a stun or a pocket knife. That would help a lot with gang bangers. 

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I like the single method of killing Jason until we get the Grendal map that gives us the chance to have him star crash into the earth lol.

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15 hours ago, Trident77 said:

Jason can still be harmed during his stun animation as of current times. A Buggzy with a machete could still down Jason's HP fast, so it's possible that Jason might need invulnerability while being stunned (or at least halved damage during a stun) in order to solve this problem.

They patched this already

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7 hours ago, Qcici said:

They patched this already

When? I mean, don't get me wrong, I like the idea that Jason cannot be harmed while stunned, but if what you're saying it true, when did it actually get patched? Because the last couple of games I've played so far have said otherwise, and although that sounds anecdotal, I haven't seen any recent patch notes mentioning Jason once again had invulnerability to damage while stunned.

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Just now, Trident77 said:

When? I mean, don't get me wrong, I like the idea that Jason cannot be harmed while stunned, but if what you're saying it true, when did it actually get patched? Because the last couple of games I've played so far have said otherwise, and although that sounds anecdotal, I haven't seen any recent patch notes where Jason had invulnerability to damage while stunned.

I forgot when the patch dropped (I think it was around November/December idk lol) But there was this update where Counselors could remove Jason's mask while he was stunned. I actually did it before and we ended up killing Jason while he was stunned. Then after the new patch, it fixed it.

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28 minutes ago, Qcici said:

I forgot when the patch dropped (I think it was around November/December idk lol) But there was this update where Counselors could remove Jason's mask while he was stunned. I actually did it before and we ended up killing Jason while he was stunned. Then after the new patch, it fixed it.

I'm gonna be pretty honest here, I didn't find anywhere in the patch notes that it was fixed. And considering it would be a major problem, the devs would've said something about it. For now, I'll just assume it's a recurring bug, and hope the game engine update smooths it out for good.

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12 hours ago, Trident77 said:

Machetes are one of the most durable weapons in the game, and @ThePunkPirate managed to calculate that axes deal roughly the same amount of damage as machetes do. It's more likely that a team won't find all the machetes/axes in a map rather than all of them breaking. Also, my idea would negate your first sentence when I said that "only bladed weapons can knock the mask off now."

An HP increase by itself wouldn't do much, especially since you can still hurt Jason while he's stunned. Anyone with 10 strength armed with a machete/axe is capable of taking out 80% of Jason's health using one heavy vertical strike, and if Jason took damage beforehand (say, a shotgun blast for instance) then you can easily knock the mask off. So even if you did a simple HP increase, like say 4x the current health, it still leads to high strength counselors beating up on Jason while he's stunned, so it's not really that difficult to knock the mask off even then with a coordinated group. Weapons like fire pokers as well as shotguns can help contribute to the killing as well.

Even worse, a Jason with -HP can have his mask one-shotted by Tommy Jarvis if he's equipped with any slugger perk that grants at least 11% or higher (so in other words, at least rare quality other than a 10% rare slugger).

I'm not trying to turn this game into fantasy, what I'm trying to do is return the game to what it should've been. Killing Jason was supposed to be difficult, yet there are guides out there making this brutally simple to do if you use machetes/axes with vertical attacks in combat stance (preferrably a machete because there's less chance to stun using one compared to an axe). You can even do this while Jason is distracted by the sweater, so after dealing a bit of damage you can safely demask Jason while he can only stare at his demise

When a horror survival game features a murderer who can easily be defeated, the game starts to become less frightening as well as less fun. The devs found that out the hard way when they acccidentally increased the number of pocket knives/med sprays/shotguns a few patches ago.

Killing jason was NEVER difficult. It was always the most easiest thing to do. The only difference was people werent so acustomed to it and most didnt know what to do. Now that everyone is more into the game and knows what and where it goes smoother.

From what you are saying its not really jason that the problem but the perks and strength on counselors.

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3 minutes ago, HateMe said:

Killing jason was NEVER difficult. It was always the most easiest thing to do. The only difference was people werent so acustomed to it and most didnt know what to do. Now that everyone is more into the game and knows what and where it goes smoother.

From what you are saying its not really jason that the problem but the perks and strength on counselors.

Then you agree there's a problem currently, and that's why I'm suggesting Jason should get some nice buffs to help deal with the counselors better. As they are, counselors hold a major advantage against Jason if they group up on him, and while these ideas are only a small fraction of the changes that are needed (since I'm not certain if the devs will keep combat stance or not, waiting on this idea until after the game engine update), they would certainly help keep Jason at a better level then he is currently.

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6 hours ago, Trident77 said:

Then you agree there's a problem currently, and that's why I'm suggesting Jason should get some nice buffs to help deal with the counselors better. As they are, counselors hold a major advantage against Jason if they group up on him, and while these ideas are only a small fraction of the changes that are needed (since I'm not certain if the devs will keep combat stance or not, waiting on this idea until after the game engine update), they would certainly help keep Jason at a better level then he is currently.

I dont agree its a problem, if anything if you play jason its your own fault for allowing them to group up on you.  If you kill off the important counselors first it wont be easy for them to kill you. You have also traps, knives, stalk. Play jason a it better and you can easily kill them prventing them from killing you.

You can set traps at your house to notify you when someone gets in.

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2 hours ago, HateMe said:

I dont agree its a problem, if anything if you play jason its your own fault for allowing them to group up on you.  If you kill off the important counselors first it wont be easy for them to kill you. You have also traps, knives, stalk. Play jason a it better and you can easily kill them prventing them from killing you.

You can set traps at your house to notify you when someone gets in.

The problem is, no matter how much better you play Jason, you're ignoring the possibility the counselors can also be skilled as well. You know, splitpushing, grouping up to take advantage of stun chaining, that sort of deal.

Honestly, it seems like I'm getting nowhere with this discussion. You can think all you want, but Jason has always had problems dealing with mobs regardless of skill level, and the fact that Jason can have his mask effortlessly ripped off showcases this issue bluntly.

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A couple things here and I know the Advanced player people are going to receive it badly (sorry)...

1. There's an assumption that everyone on the forum is a lifetime gamer and know the lingo, acronyms, etc. Either, people should define them or some of the Epic Advanced member should start a thread of "acronyms & terms". Believe it or not, people are here to learn how to play Ft13 at all different levels not just here to hear the members B&M (#itch & Moan) about how easy it is to stun, pocketknife, or kill Jason. If we want to better the game overall for all level players - teach them [to fish]!

2. In Quick Play (QP), with the many levels of counselors that might populate a lobby - it is difficult to kill Jason.  People get in the way, don't know the mask has to be off, Tommy has to be back, go get the sweater without knowing how to use it effectively, and don't understand the stun/kill sequence, and on and on...  There's the challenging games - QP - because you have to overcome the odds of the general players playing together.  If you're lobbying with all players who are advanced and know what's going - Jason is the only player with a true challenge and it is a fun day at camp for the rest of the players. Just saying... 

p.s... please don't burn me too badly... (LOL!)

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@FastVanessa Regarding your questions:

1. To be frank, this thread was designed for people who have a good understanding of the game's mechanics. If newbies want a thread to learn game terminology, I'd recommend Alkavian's guide on the GD forums, because I have zero interest in discussing things with people who won't understand the game's current problems.

2. The game is balanced around high levels of play, just like every other game in existence. If you cater too much to people who don't understand, nor are good at playing, you have a dumbed down game like what happened a few patches ago when pocketknives/med sprays/shotguns were plentiful. Jason should not be left weakened just because the majority of QP players are bad and/or won't communicate with others. It's not a secret he has problems dealing with mobs; even the QP crowd can gather around while beating him senseless once they manage to get a stun in (using a shotgun, flare gun, firecrackers which you can get from a perk, striking him from the back while he's blocking, abusing a Jason that has -Defense as a weakness, etc.), and the fact he can be killed easily defeats the idea of horror survival. The game's featured murderer should be dangerous, not a pinata, and those who think otherwise are holding this game back from being great.

That being said, the ideas I've collected on this thread won't solve all of Jason's woes alone. He needs a robust mechanic to deal with mobs, like a multi-attack, and the game engine update will hopefully solve issues with hit box detection as well as him taking damage while stunned sometimes. However, I'm not keen on discussing combat stance related stuff because I'm not sure what kinds of changes might happen to combat in the future, so I've collected other ideas to cover other areas of the discussion.

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@Trident77 I agree... Jason is way too easy to kill. The biggest problem here is the double tap tactic. It is too easy to figure out the timing to strike Jason as he comes out of a pocket knife stun, or any other stun animation for that matter... including striking him as he comes out of a kill animation. As you stated, it does not take many hits to get his mask off.
    I will be honest...I have taken advantage of this tactic myself before... but I find it takes actual skill and a bit of luck to get the mask off without using this tactic. I do not often go for a Jason kill myself, but I have gotten his mask off many times without having to resort to this tactic.... I have also died many times in the attempt.
   A simple fix... allow Jason to block before coming out of a stun, either by allowing the player to enter combat stance during a stun and hold block so he is already blocking when the stun finishes.... or just allowing Jason to block without being in combat stance and allowing a block to be active coming out of a stun as previously stated.
   Just getting rid of combat stance all together and giving an option for light and heavy attacks and a block (and dodge options) at any time would be good... the lock on feature is annoying anyway. Combat stance is broken as it is now anyway and getting rid of it while retaining the attack and block (and dodge) options would fix the problems in my opinion.... it just requires a re-mapping of the controls for these aspects. I am no programmer, the coding to do this would probably require much more work than this sounds like.
   The double tap and chain stuns are the main reason why it is so easy to kill Jason... it requires very little practice or skill to pull this off. Just allowing him to hold block while in a stun until he comes out of it so he can actively block an attack timed to hit him before he could possibly get into combat stance and block completely gets rid of this problem without any other kind of fix necessary. It is also realistic... anyone being attacked will instinctively raise their arms to protect themselves.
   Also, the ability to dodge or block at any time would be quite the buff to counselor players any time Jason takes a swing at them or throws a knife.

    This is where people come into the conversation and claim they cannot win without being able to stun Jason over and over and over and over again.... I call bullshit. I have seen a great many escapes without ANYONE attacking Jason at all. Against a Jason player skilled at fighting groups, they all die pretty much every time they try it... so my question is: Do they enjoy beating on the noob Jasons? Great skill there (do I need to point out that this is sarcasm?) and the reason several of my friends became so frustrated that they put the game down and still refuse to pick it back up... and they probably are far from the only ones that feel this way. If I was not as patient and tenacious as I am, I would have put this game down early on due to this as well... but I stuck it out and learned to fight the battle Chads during the great Jason nerf patch in which it almost seemed like I was the only player with a preference still on Jason.

@FastVanessa  I do not speak that mystical language we call "Acronym" either... but google is my friend and can be your friend too... and can be the friend of anyone that chooses to use it or any other search engine for that matter.
  I have seen many Jason hunters fail in quick play... of course it is hard for someone that has never done it before... the same is true for ANYTHING that ANYONE has not done before. If they are willing to listen and are actually trying to do it as they had it explained to them, the new players can still manage it VERY easily with even one veteran player to explain it... against the best Jason players. The problem is, everyone likes to think they know better, even people that have never done it before... but they learn eventually. I try to explain the game mechanics to any noob that wants to know about it in game.
   As you pointed out in #2, there are many things that can screw up the kill and many things to explain to get it right. Some people have no attention span and just spew out 'yeah, yeah, yeah', and do what they think should happen anyway. This screws up many attempts on Jason's unlife.... but once again, with a bit of practice... it is too easy.
   Nothing in life is easy the first time you do it, and everything gets easier with practice until it becomes an unconscious reaction, or what some people call 'muscle memory'. A lobby completely composed of skilled players close to each others skill level knows how to do things, from both sides of play. Everyone has good games and bad games, good days and bad days. No one is perfect. And yes... a skilled Jason player will have no problem with noob players... that should go with out saying... but if they stick with it, they will learn to get better and give Jason a hard time. A skilled Jason can still pull off an 8 of 8 game against very skilled players, it just will not happen every time and he or she will have to actually work for it. A game mechanic such as 'killing Jason' should be close to impossible for new players... as it stands now, as long as they can listen to advice and try to do it how they are told, it is way too easy.
   Many people say quick play is the challenge... that is only true sometimes. Quick play puts you up against random players. Many times I have seen entire lobbies of level 150 players that are very skilled at all aspects of the game. Many times I have seen lobbies completely composed of new players (other than me)... and many times I have seen varying mixes of the extremes and players in between.... Any kind of mixture of skill levels you can think of, I have seen it in quick play..... I play this game a lot... can you tell?
   The real challenge I see is playing with people who are able to learn your tactics and come up with counter tactics that work. Playing against people (even very skilled players) that use the same tactics every game is easier than playing against a lobby of level one players in their first game, they at least are still unpredictable. But of course, this is not always true, as I am fond of saying, we all have good games and bad games.

   Pointing out that something is too easy to do is incorrectly referred to as 'bitching and moaning' by people that like it to be easy to do. Correctly stating that some one is 'bitching and moaning' is when someone is saying it is too hard to do something and they simply refuse to learn how to do it properly. Certain thing should be a challenge, even for VERY skilled players... other things do not need to be such a challenge. Those that do not like a challenge will invariably call those people that do like a challenge whiners and think that they should be able to accomplish something as easily as those who had to take the time to practice and actually get good at something.
   In the past several months, I have done a massive amount of reading on these forums. I do not believe everyone is on these forums to learn... some are here to bitch and moan that some things are too hard and should be made so easy that a first time player can pull it off. Many are here to fight for a balance to the game, whether it is their own vision of balance or closer resembles the devs vision of balance or anywhere in between... some are here just for a laugh... some are here to antagonize others... some are here because they are huge fans of the movies and (or) the game and just like to participate in the discussions... and many are here for several different reasons. Like any other group of people, there are good and bad, polite and rude, hairy and bald, funny and serious, Intelligent and not so intelligent.... and so on. And yes SOME are here to learn... these people ask questions and read relevant topics and ask more questions... there are quite a few people here that want to learn, just not all of them.
   Fortunately, there are also many forum members that are willing to answer questions and are generally very helpful... just reading through some of their posts answers my questions without the need to even ask... but sometimes these answers lead to more questions.... learning new 'stuff' is a process.

   Sorry for the length of the post.... again.

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1 hour ago, Ahab said:

A simple fix... allow Jason to block before coming out of a stun, either by allowing the player to enter combat stance during a stun and hold block so he is already blocking when the stun finishes.... or just allowing Jason to block without being in combat stance and allowing a block to be active coming out of a stun as previously stated.

Actually, this might be the single best idea in the thread. Seems almost too obvious now that I read it. 

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