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Alien_Number_Six

Friday is almost two different games when it comes to balance.

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           Quick Play is a mixed bag most of the time. As a counselor the odds are stacked against you. You can still win but the experience leaves you feeling like the counselors need a buff. Then you jump on a Private Match with a bunch of 150's with microphones. If your Jason your lucky if you get three people and as a counselor it's incredible how fast and easy you can complete objectives with proper tactics and communication. This experience will leave you with the feeling that Jason needs a buff. 

                 So what is the answer? Adding more items seemed to make Quick Play a more balanced experience but made Jason useless in a Private Match. Buffing Jason and taking away the item increase only made Quick Play a flustrating experience and only helped Private Match's Jason issues a little. 

                 I think that the melee system needs an overhaul. Remove Combat Stance and improve hit detection. Give Jason needs an attack that can hit more then one counselor to make ganging up on him less inviting. Ultimately a Normal/Hardcore setting like Call of Duty could go a long way to balance Quick Play. 

               

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The way to do it is to leave QP on the low end. People can speak if they wish to. If they all want to be silent and die, that is a choice. I think splitting the player base is the wrong answer. All you'll do is have trolls go play easy mode and ruin being Jason for anybody who isn't top tier. 

As it stands, I don't quite agree with your take on private. I know a lot of guys who can go 6-8/8. A lot of how successful Jason is depends on objective placement and how fast objectives can be fixed.

I do agree with hit detection needing to be refined. 

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2 hours ago, Alien_Number_Six said:

 I think that the melee system needs an overhaul. Remove Combat Stance and improve hit detection. Give Jason needs an attack that can hit more then one counselor to make ganging up on him less inviting. Ultimately a Normal/Hardcore setting like Call of Duty could go a long way to balance Quick Play. 

 

Yes, remove Combat Stance so all counselors and Jason are wildly swinging in the opposite direction that they need to...:lol:

Combat stance needs to stay, if purely for the aim assist as it is invaluable (and also for circumventing canned animations). Jason’s swings can also already hit more than 1 counselor / target. Unless you mean a 360 sweep than can hit everyone around him or something.

Hit detection is an issue, it is actually more of a problem for counselors as their attacks can actually phase / grab saves don’t work. Other than that you have invisible hit boxes on the maps which interfere with both sides. Design issues with the environment / cabins are the main problems for Jason’s weapons and consequently his attacks (plus the retarded RNG that gets his weapon stuck).

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2 hours ago, Alien_Number_Six said:

           Quick Play is a mixed bag most of the time. As a counselor the odds are stacked against you. You can still win but the experience leaves you feeling like the counselors need a buff. Then you jump on a Private Match with a bunch of 150's with microphones. If your Jason your lucky if you get three people and as a counselor it's incredible how fast and easy you can complete objectives with proper tactics and communication. This experience will leave you with the feeling that Jason needs a buff. 

I think the game is fine.   QP is a mixed bag.   It can be filled with trolls, goof offs, tryhard. casuals and... friends.

Half the time i play QP is with friends..    Odds maybe stacked against players in QP but.. thats the fun of it.  

If a lobby sucks, leave after the match is over.  No point breaking the game.

 

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I agree QP is a mixed bag, but honestly that is just going to the reality no matter what happens in game updates. Too many players join QP games not caring about team play or winning to make it fair and balanced.

The game should be balanced about when Jason fights off against group of organized players.  This is where the game is the most fun if it was balanced. I agree with OP about a full group of players, its not about if Jason will play, It is about, can he kill more then 3 or so players before he dies or game is over.

 

If I play QP with 2 or 3 friends, even then it often enough to get a decent amount of players to escape.  We don't even focus on making Kill squads as enough other players are already focusing on that.

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Great observation, OP.  Private & public matches are indeed different for which side of the blade you are on.  Can't say that I agree with your suggestion to remove combat stance, though.  

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Jason needs a buff in BOTH.  Players don't team up on Jason as much in QP because they're usually randoms that don't know each other, but whenever they do they can just chain-stun, and easily pop the mask off. 

It's not even a matter of skill or experience, under the current balancing, if you figure out chain-stunning, you can gang up on Jason and pretty easily beat him.  It's a major problem that needs to be addressed.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, AJLeatherman said:

Jason needs a buff in BOTH.  Players don't team up on Jason as much in QP because they're usually randoms that don't know each other, but whenever they do they can just chain-stun, and easily pop the mask off. 

It's not even a matter of skill or experience, under the current balancing, if you figure out chain-stunning, you can gang up on Jason and pretty easily beat him.  It's a major problem that needs to be addressed.

 

 

I am sure am lucky to have never been killed in QP then... Nope. But I am lucky to have never been killed in a private game.

 Jason does not need a buff in QP. I can't even remember the last time I faiked to fo 8/8 in QP and I am on a rusty streak right now.

Chain stunning barely exists. After a pockrt knife, Jason can be stunned again for a double stun. Knives can chain stun very temporarily. Bear traps are the only thing that can truly chain stun, which is essentially an exploit. 

Otherwise, Jason has a few seconds of stun immunity and can come at situations from multiple angles. If someone is really struggling as Jason in QP, then they need to adjust their strategies. Yes, his mask comes off easily but that isn't a death sentance.

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28 minutes ago, CPLhicks31 said:

 

Chain stunning barely exists. After a pockrt knife, Jason can be stunned again for a double stun. Knives can chain stun very temporarily. Bear traps are the only thing that can truly chain stun, which is essentially an exploit. 

Otherwise, Jason has a few seconds of stun immunity and can come at situations from multiple angles. If someone is really struggling as Jason in QP, then they need to adjust their strategies. Yes, his mask comes off easily but that isn't a death sentance.

This isn't true at all.  I've witnessed multiple "pinata style" gang-attacks on Jason where multiple counselors just circle him, and quickly chain-stun until the mask comes off.  Once the pinata circle happens, there's either a kill (unless they mis-time the sweater), Jason quits, or he goes and hides in the water.  I'm all for a great strategic Jason kill, but this method doesn't require any skill or strategy - you just get enough people around him and beat him like a pinata, and the chain-stunning and weak mask HP makes for an easy kill.

I've observed it probably 5-10 times in the last week alone - both with good Jasons and inexperienced ones.  When I'm the only one trying to achieve objectives, and I look on the map and see literally every other counselor in the same spot with the Jason, I sigh and say "Yeah, another one of these rooms".

I find it kind of hard to believe you haven't even seen chain-stunning like this, but just because you haven't personally ran across these groups in QP doesn't mean they don't exist.

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They should do a setting for private matches where the host can set the level of items.  Like:

Easy: lots of items everywhere. 

Medium: items are more scarce but a good amount

Hard: items are few and far between

Hardcore: only one type of item per match

 

Obviously, this doesn't include key items. But also the difficulty could make the key items be closer or further away from the objective (car, boat, fuse house etc).

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4 hours ago, Tommy86 said:

Jason’s swings can also already hit more than 1 counselor / target. Unless you mean a 360 sweep than can hit everyone around him or something.

I think he meant for Jason's weapon reach to be buffed, so we can hit counselors at a normal distance. Right now, the current weapon reach for Jason is too short. We cannot hit multiple counselors with a short range like what it is now.

The T-Rex arms now affects his weapon instead of his grab.

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1 hour ago, AJLeatherman said:

Chain stunning barely exists. After a pockrt knife, Jason can be stunned again for a double stun. Knives can chain stun very temporarily. Bear traps are the only thing that can truly chain stun, which is essentially an exploit. 

How to chain stun: requires 2 fire crackers, 1 pocket knife, flare gun or shotgun and a baseball bat or any weapon if you have epic sucker punch.

Step 1: Stick a pocketknife in Jason's neck.

Step 2: Go into combat stance, wait until Jason puts his arm to his side and whack him.

Step 3: Throw a firecracker directly at Jason, standing about 4 feet in front of him.

Step 4: Shoot Jason when he regains his composure.

Step 5: Throw another firecracker.

Essentially this can go on and on as long as you're 

triggering a different stun animation every new stun. 

 

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QP is filled with a bunch of 10 year old little brats who quit before or after they are killed... if they are host... your game is over, if I hear a little kid hosting I leave before the game starts.

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34 minutes ago, Whammigobambam said:

How to chain stun: requires 2 fire crackers, 1 pocket knife, flare gun or shotgun and a baseball bat or any weapon if you have epic sucker punch.

Step 1: Stick a pocketknife in Jason's neck.

Step 2: Go into combat stance, wait until Jason puts his arm to his side and whack him.

Step 3: Throw a firecracker directly at Jason, standing about 4 feet in front of him.

Step 4: Shoot Jason when he regains his composure.

Step 5: Throw another firecracker.

Essentially this can go on and on as long as you're 

triggering a different stun animation every new stun. 

 

   Your quote tags @AJLeatherman but what is quoted came from @CPLhicks31 
   AJLeatherman made a great point about how easy it is to get Jason's mask off.
  Whammigobambam.... you are completely correct about how to achieve 'chain stunning'... this can also be used to get the mask off rather easily if you have more than one counselor and the proper weapons to do it. I have seen it quite a few times.
  CPLhicks..... chain stunning.... piñata Jason....Jason bullying..... whatever you want to call it (and you know when someone says chain stunning, they do not necessarily mean instant stun to stun to stun with no resistance)... it exists.... it is a problem and it IS undeniable. You are probably not lucky to have never been killed in quick play.... you are just lucky enough to never have played against the Jason Killer... as I call him (I am not sure if he would want me to name him with this or not) who WILL kill you with a totally disorganized group in quick play (if he decides to make the attempt)... maybe not the first game or second, third or fourth time.... but he will get you..... he makes it look too easy and he is far from the only player that can do it. I can do it pretty easily too, though I rarely bother trying (too much salt is bad for my blood pressure). I have seen quite a few high level (and lower level) Jason players bite the machete in the last few weeks at the hands of quite a few different players.... in quick play.... many of whom were random lobby members I cannot remember if I had played with before and very few seemed to know the people they were working with.
    When your mask is off... unless the sweater glitches (which does happen) or one of the players makes a mistake (which does happen) or the Jason player is using a macro which is completely obvious at the time (which does happen... a lot more than the other reasons for the attempt to fail).... Jason will die (I discovered a week or two ago that you can still kill a Jason that is spinning on his knees.... that guy was very surprised and oh so full of salt). There are tactics to fight sweater girl and Tommy without the mask... but one mistake and you are done, unless one of the above circumstances apply. 

    That being said.... there are already two game modes. A regular game in which counselors attempt to escape through one of several objectives being completed..... and the hunt for Jason mode, which is really a totally different style of play for both sides. At least it is for those involved in the attempt and it is a very different game for the Jason player, at least until the attempt succeeds or fails.
    Fixing combat stance would be a big help.... but first, everyone needs to agree on what is broken about it. Perhaps giving Jason the ability to come out of a stun already using block to avoid easy demaskings through double taps. Fixing hitboxes? maybe.... but should we hit every single time we take a swing? That itself seems rather unrealistic. There should be a higher chance to miss a swing when at maximum fear (hysterical accuracy is not now, nor will it ever be in any way realistic). To put it simply.... most people do not work well under stress, particularly those that claim they do. This is why fear levels are hidden. People that could work well under stress of this nature would be battle hardened veterans, not teenage camp counselors (or Mitch for that matter). This could give some actual meaning to fear and make people think twice about fear management. Giving Jason any real chance to miss a swing within his hitbox is counter productive here and would take away his ability to fight mobs of counselors effectively.... Jason does not seem stressed out about the situation at all...ever.
   I like the idea of normal and hardcore modes (with a toggle) for both quick play and private matches. It is already difficult enough to find a good balance in this game and could be a far greater challenge to find a way to make a workable hardcore mode.... I would still play it. But remember, hardcore mode for Jason is an easy mode for counselors.... and hardcore mode for counselors is easy mode for Jason. You must keep these points in mind when thinking of how to balance it.

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Different difficulty levels will only split/alienate the playerbase.

To me, the game is NOT meant to be played with friends, UNLESS its private match.

Quick play is meant to be everybody for themselves who might or might not work together and unfortunately its just groups of trolls, glitchers, teamers, etc.

I'd love to be able to prevent friends from playing with one another except for private matches, but given the LOW playerbase count on PC, I think it has potential for counter effect, so such a stipulation would hurt things even more.

Its part of the reason why I fear a different game mode will also be abandoned by the playerbase in favor of the 'stock' game mode or the game as it was 'meant to be played' by the purist element types.

If Pamela had her own mode, I could see it being a limited success, but then the playerbase will whine one way or another about Jason should receive the same treatment as Pamela or Pamela should be in the standard mode, etc.

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Jason just needs more tools for dealing with group combat, and adjustments to make fast characters less overpowered and less universally desirable over slow ones. Instead the devs increase Jason's movement speed, making it easier to catch slow characters but no easier to catch the meta characters, and give him more starting knives so he can spawn kill slow characters more often. I'd rather they just leave things the way they are, they'll probably just make Vanessa mandatory the next time they adjust the balance.

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3 hours ago, Ahab said:

   Your quote tags @AJLeatherman but what is quoted came from @CPLhicks31 
   AJLeatherman made a great point about how easy it is to get Jason's mask off.
  Whammigobambam.... you are completely correct about how to achieve 'chain stunning'... this can also be used to get the mask off rather easily if you have more than one counselor and the proper weapons to do it. I have seen it quite a few times.
  CPLhicks..... chain stunning.... piñata Jason....Jason bullying..... whatever you want to call it (and you know when someone says chain stunning, they do not necessarily mean instant stun to stun to stun with no resistance)... it exists.... it is a problem and it IS undeniable. You are probably not lucky to have never been killed in quick play.... you are just lucky enough to never have played against the Jason Killer... as I call him (I am not sure if he would want me to name him with this or not) who WILL kill you with a totally disorganized group in quick play (if he decides to make the attempt)... maybe not the first game or second, third or fourth time.... but he will get you..... he makes it look too easy and he is far from the only player that can do it. I can do it pretty easily too, though I rarely bother trying (too much salt is bad for my blood pressure). I have seen quite a few high level (and lower level) Jason players bite the machete in the last few weeks at the hands of quite a few different players.... in quick play.... many of whom were random lobby members I cannot remember if I had played with before and very few seemed to know the people they were working with.
    When your mask is off... unless the sweater glitches (which does happen) or one of the players makes a mistake (which does happen) or the Jason player is using a macro which is completely obvious at the time (which does happen... a lot more than the other reasons for the attempt to fail).... Jason will die (I discovered a week or two ago that you can still kill a Jason that is spinning on his knees.... that guy was very surprised and oh so full of salt). There are tactics to fight sweater girl and Tommy without the mask... but one mistake and you are done, unless one of the above circumstances apply. 

    That being said.... there are already two game modes. A regular game in which counselors attempt to escape through one of several objectives being completed..... and the hunt for Jason mode, which is really a totally different style of play for both sides. At least it is for those involved in the attempt and it is a very different game for the Jason player, at least until the attempt succeeds or fails.
    Fixing combat stance would be a big help.... but first, everyone needs to agree on what is broken about it. Perhaps giving Jason the ability to come out of a stun already using block to avoid easy demaskings through double taps. Fixing hitboxes? maybe.... but should we hit every single time we take a swing? That itself seems rather unrealistic. There should be a higher chance to miss a swing when at maximum fear (hysterical accuracy is not now, nor will it ever be in any way realistic). To put it simply.... most people do not work well under stress, particularly those that claim they do. This is why fear levels are hidden. People that could work well under stress of this nature would be battle hardened veterans, not teenage camp counselors (or Mitch for that matter). This could give some actual meaning to fear and make people think twice about fear management. Giving Jason any real chance to miss a swing within his hitbox is counter productive here and would take away his ability to fight mobs of counselors effectively.... Jason does not seem stressed out about the situation at all...ever.
   I like the idea of normal and hardcore modes (with a toggle) for both quick play and private matches. It is already difficult enough to find a good balance in this game and could be a far greater challenge to find a way to make a workable hardcore mode.... I would still play it. But remember, hardcore mode for Jason is an easy mode for counselors.... and hardcore mode for counselors is easy mode for Jason. You must keep these points in mind when thinking of how to balance it.

I still disagree. Pinata Jasons are either bad Jasons or Jasons up against a large group of great counsellors (unlikely in qp). And a demasked Jason is certainly not an autokill, it just depends how smart and patient he is (or lucky/unlucky). I have numerous players attempt to kill me and I am not even some amazing Jason. In fact, I have been targeted for a kill oh probably 50 odd times without a death yet. We are going to have to agree to disagree.

That said, I do agree that Jasons mask comes off a little too easily. I am not arguing that fact, but I do not think Jason is overall still too weak in QP, which is what I initially responded to. QP is a breeze 9/10 games dor good Jasons.

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8 hours ago, CPLhicks31 said:

a demasked Jason is certainly not an autokill, it just depends how smart and patient he is (or lucky/unlucky).

Actually, a masked Jason is an autokill, since you can stun him with the sweater, remove his mask, knock him to his knees and kill him all in the span of a couple seconds. If it's part 2, 5, 6 or 9 and Tommy has the Slugger perk he can actually oneshot Jason from full health, so there isn't even any need for combat in the first place half the time. You only need two people to absolutely destroy Jason, three if you want to guarantee that one of them gets Tommy, and then that third player is just sitting the match out.

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9 hours ago, GeneiJin said:

@CPLhicks31 You don't play on PC, do you? :D

PS4. And btw, even if you played me and managed to kill me, I still wouldn't say "Jason needs to be buffed" for being killed 1/60 or so attempts. And again, I'm not sayingsome Jasons dont get their asses kicked or that it is not too easy to kill Jason. I just don't think we need to whine about how Jason is too weak in QP. That is the only point I am making.

7 hours ago, MichaelMemers said:

Actually, a masked Jason is an autokill, since you can stun him with the sweater, remove his mask, knock him to his knees and kill him all in the span of a couple seconds. If it's part 2, 5, 6 or 9 and Tommy has the Slugger perk he can actually oneshot Jason from full health, so there isn't even any need for combat in the first place half the time. You only need two people to absolutely destroy Jason, three if you want to guarantee that one of them gets Tommy, and then that third player is just sitting the match out.

Nope, still not an "autokill." You are leaping here. The players still need to be close enough to Jason, hit the right buttons and do so before the stun cools. Jason is still able to shift, stalk, place traps etc. It's easier but it is not an "autokill". I like the dramatic flare though!

 However, I fully agree that he should NOT be able to be killed with his mask on, and I bet they will fix this soon. I am pretty sure it is not intended to be doable.

Btw, I am not arguing that it is or is not too easy to kill Jason. I was only responding to a poster who was demanding Jason buffs in QP. I do understand that Jason can be bullied by vets. 

 

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2 hours ago, CPLhicks31 said:

PS4. And btw, even if you played me and managed to kill me, I still wouldn't say "Jason needs to be buffed" for being killed 1/60 or so attempts. And again, I'm not sayingsome Jasons dont get their asses kicked or that it is not too easy to kill Jason. I just don't think we need to whine about how Jason is too weak in QP. That is the only point I am making.

I would say it would be more like 1 out of 3 attempts, and this is without the "sweater demask" tech which would make it 1 out of 1 bar of any bugs or blotches.  If the game remain how it is, more and more players will begin to realize this.  Jason himself when it come to the rest of the game is fine, but when it comes to the J-Kill methods, Jason is put at a overwhelming disadvantage once he is primed to be killed, which isn't that hard with a player that know what they are doing.

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21 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

I would say it would be more like 1 out of 3 attempts, and this is without the "sweater demask" tech which would make it 1 out of 1 bar of any bugs or blotches.  If the game remain how it is, more and more players will begin to realize this.  Jason himself when it come to the rest of the game is fine, but when it comes to the J-Kill methods, Jason is put at a overwhelming disadvantage once he is primed to be killed, which isn't that hard with a player that know what they are doing.

No arguments here. That said, are you talking just you and one or two other persons or an organized group? Organized groups led by players such as yourself are rare in QP, which was my point. Whether you would succeed 1/3 times or not is not very relevant because you are not your average QP player.

In private, or an arranged match, the counsellors certainly have it easier trying to kill Jason. But a good Jason walking into your average QP match likely won't be killed even if players are going for the kill. In fact just a few days ago I entered a J kill lobby. They got the first two Jasons and went for me, and had no idea how screwed they were. My 1/60 comment was not saying all matches would be against you, but rather if you did kill me my total kills would be 1/60 attempts which hardly demands a Jason buff. I absolutely believe if I played you for a handful of matches you'd get a kill if you have a solid supporting team. This isn't really a you versus me argument in my mind. My first post was to the player who was saying Jason is too weak in QP,  that is the only point I am debating.

Again, I am basing this on QP versus organized matches. Me versus you would be a private or organized match, which leads to my point. Jason does not need much of a QP buff, but some kind of toggle setting for bis HP would be interesting in private matches.

This is an awesome and fun conversation btw.

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40 minutes ago, CPLhicks31 said:

No arguments here. That said, are you talking just you and one or two other persons or an organized group? Organized groups led by players such as yourself are rare in QP, which was my point. Whether you would succeed 1/3 times or not is not very relevant because you are not your average QP player.

......

This is an awesome and fun conversation btw.

Thank for the compliment, hahah :D.  It is fun, and while I'm not saying you're are wrong when talking about the average QP, how it is now it is certainly easy to "scam" even the best of Jasons.

The point I wanted to make though isn't whether or not the "current" QP players can consistently get the J-Kill at a fair rate to Jason thwarting it, but in the future as casuals leave and the dedicated player remain and improve.  If Jason killing remain the same, then Jason will indeed have a hard time stopping such attempts.  Honestly, 2-3 players is all required to consistently get J-kill, anymore really would be like too many cooks in the kitchen.  Its better for Jason to be chasing the "average" players doing objectives while the "hunters" work on the set-up. 

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25 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

Thank for the compliment, hahah :D.  It is fun, and while I'm not saying you're are wrong when talking about the average QP, how it is now it is certainly easy to "scam" even the best of Jasons.

The point I wanted to make though isn't whether or not the "current" QP players can consistently get the J-Kill at a fair rate to Jason thwarting it, but in the future as casuals leave and the dedicated player remain and improve.  If Jason killing remain the same, then Jason will indeed have a hard time stopping such attempts.  Honestly, 2-3 players is all required to consistently get J-kill, anymore really would be like too many cooks in the kitchen.  Its better for Jason to be chasing the "average" players doing objectives while the "hunters" work on the set-up. 

Yup. I think we are more or less in agreement here. And yeah, the scam aspect certainly. I am not usually taking it into consideration due to the fact I'd never use it, but that is just me. 

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