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RichWalk9891

Stealth readjustments and Sense rebalance

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Stealth Rankings

Each value of the Stealth statistic are readjusted so that the player no longer need to have a 9/10 or above to be able to jog silently, and can even sprint silently with a very high Stealth rank. The catch is that each values are highly dependent on the Counselor's current Fear Level, where their ability to avoid generating sounds based on their Stealth value stops working once the Counselor starts to panic:

1/10: Any kind of movement will always generate noise, though crawling would still be quieter than sprinting.

2-3/10: Crawling is silent only if Fear Level is low.

4-5/10: Walking is silent only if Fear Level is low. Crawling will always be silent.

6-7/10: Jogging is silent only if Fear Level is low. Crawling and Walking will always be silent.

8-9/10: Sprinting is silent only if Fear Level is low. Crawling, Walking, and Jogging will always be silent.

10/10: All movements, even Sprinting, will not generate noise. However, moving on water or swimming will still generate noise.

Note: Once Jason hits 'RAGE', it is no longer possible to jog or sprint silently.

 

Stealth and 'Sense'

Originally you needed perks to be able to avoid Jason's 'Sense', and even then they would be rendered useless considering that a wise Jason player would re-roll his 'Sense' ability until your Counselor shows up regardless. Stealth is now improved so that a Counselor with a 6/10 and above in Stealth will not light up red inside Jason's 'Sense' map.

Again, the catch is that this feature is highly dependent on the Counselor's current Fear Level, and once the Counselor starts to panic they will always be visible in 'Sense' until they've calmed down. Also, once Jason hits 'RAGE', this feature stops working without perks to avoid 'Sense'.

 

Sound files and Stealth

Counselors with a 6/10 or higher in Stealth will now be able to open drawers, and open/close doors and window quieter than usual, which basically means that the sound files of drawers, doors, and windows opening/closing have their volumes slightly reduced from Jason's perspective. Their footsteps will also not be as loud as the likes of louder Counselors in turn.

 

Thoughts?

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@RichWalk9891 I have had to point this out to way too many people already. What you are asking for here are ninjas with superpowers. Nothing in this game is 100%. It is like that for a great many reasons. Balance being the number one consideration.
   No one.... not even a ninja can run without ANY noise. In a forest setting.... not even a super powered ninja could pull this off. Have you ever tried walking in a forest? At any time of year? This is FAR more unbelievable than a psychotic zombie slasher.
   A stealth above 6 will not show up on Jason's sense? That is so ridiculously overpowered I feel my head trying to explode. Did you steal a ring from a scrawny little guy named Gollum? Stealth has nothing to do with sense, only sound pings anyway. Stealth is about being quiet, not totally silent for the entire game. With sense avoidance perks this pretty much makes you invisible unless you are standing in front of Jason. And yes... sense avoidance perks do work, within their stated percentages. I think the biggest reason why people do not think they work is that they assume Jason cannot see them.... Jason is not blind, he can see counselors without sense too, they just do not light up with sense. They still give off sound pings as they would normally as well. Any Jason player that has ever encountered this knows this player will be hard to find later and if they do see someone who is not lighting up with sense, they will tunnel them until they kill them. This can easily make it seem like sense avoidance perks do not work to the counselor player. I once chased a Fox counselor invisible to sense for ten full minutes, but I do not care to go into that story right now... again. And yes, I was spamming sense a lot during that time, even 45% can work a great many times in a row, just not every time.
   Sense working with fear is one thing, not a bad idea and has been discussed before.... with far more balance than you suggest.
   Even a super powered ninja cannot open a door with squeaky hinges in silence. Or a window, or a drawer. These things make noise of their own, independently of the person opening or closing them. Even attempting to do it quietly takes much more time and still makes noise. Please do not make me explain the physics to you..... it would be a very, very long post.
   Stealth also works fine. Jason has to be looking in the direction of the sound ping to see it, so it is a 50 / 50 chance whether or not he will see it any time that any one makes a sound ping. The more often you make a ping, the more chance Jason will see it. No one stands there looking around for sound pings, turning the camera around constantly... just in case the missing stealth counselor makes a ping. If the counselor was standing still, Jason would never find them this way and they would run the clock out.
   Leaving things as you suggest until rage mode, ten minutes or more into a match, unless the counselors have been beating on poor Jason (then rage can come quicker), is simply way too overpowered. Have you never seen a car or boat moving in the first two minutes? I have... many times. How about the police being called in the first minute, this also happens a lot. I know because I do it at least once almost on a daily basis, sometimes several times in a day. You are simply asking for a "Get Out of Crystal Lake Free Card" here.
   Many players know fully well how to manage their fear already. If what you suggest was implemented, sense avoidance perks and stealth counselors would be the norm for everyone. Making Jason work for his kills is one thing but that is beyond ridiculous..... more like redonculus.
   Stealth and sense avoidance perks do work, adjust your tactics.... they do help. But they are not there to make the game a cake walk for you. We all die in this game, a lot. In game death is just something we all have to deal with. I try to come up with original last words every time to see if I can make the Jason player laugh as he or she kills me..... its just my way of dealing with in game death.

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This is all I’ve been asking for...although when Jason is in rage mode your stealth actually goes up and he can sense a very far distance so stealth doesn’t matter. Sense detects FEAR not a counselor with zero fear, if you have no fear then you SHOULD NOT light up red. Once you reach fear levels 3-4 then you light up red. Counselors aren’t supposed to be ninjas but the stealthy counselors should not light up red as fast as Vanessa and Buggzy. It should take more to sense stealthy/composed counselors like destroying generators and being in their general area. I don’t want the game handing to me but when stealth can be reworked to be a lot better then it should. It’s Jason JOB to put fear into counselors not sense-shift grab-kill. They aren’t ninjas but look at the movies, Jason found Fox and Shelly a lot faster than he did Chris Higgins...it should be the same in the game.

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1 hour ago, Ahab said:

@RichWalk9891 I have had to point this out to way too many people already. What you are asking for here are ninjas with superpowers. Nothing in this game is 100%. It is like that for a great many reasons. Balance being the number one consideration.
   No one.... not even a ninja can run without ANY noise. In a forest setting.... not even a super powered ninja could pull this off. Have you ever tried walking in a forest? At any time of year? This is FAR more unbelievable than a psychotic zombie slasher.
   A stealth above 6 will not show up on Jason's sense? That is so ridiculously overpowered I feel my head trying to explode. Did you steal a ring from a scrawny little guy named Gollum? Stealth has nothing to do with sense, only sound pings anyway. Stealth is about being quiet, not totally silent for the entire game. With sense avoidance perks this pretty much makes you invisible unless you are standing in front of Jason. And yes... sense avoidance perks do work, within their stated percentages. I think the biggest reason why people do not think they work is that they assume Jason cannot see them.... Jason is not blind, he can see counselors without sense too, they just do not light up with sense. They still give off sound pings as they would normally as well. Any Jason player that has ever encountered this knows this player will be hard to find later and if they do see someone who is not lighting up with sense, they will tunnel them until they kill them. This can easily make it seem like sense avoidance perks do not work to the counselor player. I once chased a Fox counselor invisible to sense for ten full minutes, but I do not care to go into that story right now... again. And yes, I was spamming sense a lot during that time, even 45% can work a great many times in a row, just not every time.
   Sense working with fear is one thing, not a bad idea and has been discussed before.... with far more balance than you suggest.
   Even a super powered ninja cannot open a door with squeaky hinges in silence. Or a window, or a drawer. These things make noise of their own, independently of the person opening or closing them. Even attempting to do it quietly takes much more time and still makes noise. Please do not make me explain the physics to you..... it would be a very, very long post.
   Stealth also works fine. Jason has to be looking in the direction of the sound ping to see it, so it is a 50 / 50 chance whether or not he will see it any time that any one makes a sound ping. The more often you make a ping, the more chance Jason will see it. No one stands there looking around for sound pings, turning the camera around constantly... just in case the missing stealth counselor makes a ping. If the counselor was standing still, Jason would never find them this way and they would run the clock out.
   Leaving things as you suggest until rage mode, ten minutes or more into a match, unless the counselors have been beating on poor Jason (then rage can come quicker), is simply way too overpowered. Have you never seen a car or boat moving in the first two minutes? I have... many times. How about the police being called in the first minute, this also happens a lot. I know because I do it at least once almost on a daily basis, sometimes several times in a day. You are simply asking for a "Get Out of Crystal Lake Free Card" here.
   Many players know fully well how to manage their fear already. If what you suggest was implemented, sense avoidance perks and stealth counselors would be the norm for everyone. Making Jason work for his kills is one thing but that is beyond ridiculous..... more like redonculus.
   Stealth and sense avoidance perks do work, adjust your tactics.... they do help. But they are not there to make the game a cake walk for you. We all die in this game, a lot. In game death is just something we all have to deal with. I try to come up with original last words every time to see if I can make the Jason player laugh as he or she kills me..... its just my way of dealing with in game death.

We can agree to disagree but I do believe stealth and composure can be rework to be a lot better then they currently are...it’s not a useless stat but you gotta admit it can be reworked to be better then it currently is. I’m not asking for ninjas, I just want a 10/10 composure and a 10/10 stealth to not be as easily found. Tiffany and AJ’s stealth should be like Tommy where they give off little to no pings. Tommy gives off NO pings and very little while swimming. By the way this is off topic but did you ever play with Caliber? I think I saw you in one of his videos.

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Before implementing a big overhaul, let's do baby steps. Right now when Jason toggles Sense off, it immediately recharges. How about it fully depletes and must recharge from zero, like how Stalk works? That would give people more chances to sneak away.

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3 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

Before implementing a big overhaul, let's do baby steps. Right now when Jason toggles Sense off, it immediately recharges. How about it fully depletes and must recharge from zero, like how Stalk works? That would give people more chances to sneak away.

Hopefully it can get Stalk's recharge rate too. Toggling is one issue for sure, but the rate of speed it recharges at, even for -Sense Jasons is pretty dumb.

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1 minute ago, Nougat said:

Hopefully it can get Stalk's recharge rate too. Toggling is one issue for sure, but the rate of speed it recharges at, even for -Sense Jasons is pretty dumb.

Maybe, but I could see a certain subset of people getting upset that they can't find people in this gory-fied hide-and-seek game.

giphy.gif

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10 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

Maybe, but I could see a certain subset of people getting upset that they can't find people in this gory-fied hide-and-seek game.

giphy.gif

Yeah, a lot of people seem to want Jason to be pretty broken. I don't mind buffs to things like dealing wuth groups of counselors or his terrible hit detection, but I have seen some pretty ridiculous requests on here.

Perhaps having Stalk's recharge rate is a bit much, but at least the -Sense Jasons should have something that slow for it to feel like an actual weakness.

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34 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

Before implementing a big overhaul, let's do baby steps. Right now when Jason toggles Sense off, it immediately recharges. How about it fully depletes and must recharge from zero, like how Stalk works? That would give people more chances to sneak away.

I don't mind being called a baby for liking being able to toggle sense. :)

Play some matches without toggling. It's how it is for a reason. If the game were better balanced I'd be open to it or some variation of it but in it's current state removing the toggling would eliminate a useful tool Jasons have been able to ultilize for about 10 months. If we see buffs, like being able to handle multiple counselors at once, some minor debuffs may be needed for balance but until then I don't see a need.

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7 minutes ago, bewareofbears said:

I don't mind being called a baby for liking being able to toggle sense. :)

Play some matches without toggling. It's how it is for a reason. If the game were better balanced I'd be open to it or some variation of it but in it's current state removing the toggling would eliminate a useful tool Jasons have been able to ultilize for about 10 months. If we see buffs, like being able to handle multiple counselors at once, some minor debuffs may be needed for balance but until then I don't see a need.

Recharging from zero means that you have to wait this long:

  • 0:10: +Sense strength cooldown (Jason Part 6, Jason Part 7). Drops to 0:06 during Rage.
  • 0:15: Normal cooldown (Jason Part 2, Jason Part 9, Savini Jason). Drops to 0:10 during Rage.
  • 0:20: -Sense weakness cooldown (Jason Part 3, Jason Part 8). Drops to 0:13 during Rage.

Is it really such a big deal that you must be able to spam sense every 5 seconds? Come on, it's not THAT valuable. You can stand to wait 5-15 more seconds. It makes sense avoidance perks useless.

And I mean sense would deplete to zero when toggled off like Stalk, not that it would take longer to recharge.

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2 minutes ago, bewareofbears said:

@VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow

10-20 seconds can make a significant difference in the outcome of a match.

If difference is negligible, why change it?

And Sense Spamming also makes a certain number of Counselors with High Stealth Useless

Let's not push the game to be Fully Jason Sided, Even if Jason is supposed to be "OP" Counselors also need to be balanced enough to play, Right now Some counselors are less valuable then Others and it's not only related to Stealth or Sense Spamming, If the whole Stat system gets reworked for better, I can see every counselor being used in a way (Deborah becomes useless when anyone can Do the QTE, Just like in DBD), AJ Becomes Useless with her 10/10 stealth when she still makes sound pings which are pretty damn large to be honest, Same with Tiffany, LaChappa is a sad case of being useless all over the board.

I'd rather have the whole system reworked rather than Just have Stealth or Composure Buffed or Reworked.

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7 minutes ago, bewareofbears said:

@VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow

10-20 seconds can make a significant difference in the outcome of a match.

If difference is negligible, why change it?

Because being sneaky is not rewarding if the game punishes sneaky character types. Jason's sense spamming entirely negates any and all sneaking aside from hiding in a hiding spot where they don't light up. The most efficient team would be one comprised either entirely or almost entirely of Vanessas, because Jason is going to sense you anyway so you might as well just be a fast character and rush all objectives at once so Jason can't defend them all.

I wouldn't merely nerf Sense in this way by itself, I would pair it with some combat buffs at the same time to keep it balanced.

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Just now, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

Because being sneaky is not rewarding if the game indirectly punishes sneaky character types. Jason's sense spamming entirely negates any and all sneaking aside from hiding in a hiding spot where they don't light up. The most efficient team would be one comprised either entirely or almost entirely of Vanessas, because Jason is going to sense you anyway so you might as well just be a fast character and rush all objectives at once so Jason can't defend them all.

I wouldn't merely nerf Sense in this way by itself, I would pair it with some combat buffs at the same time to keep it balanced.

Also Hiding Spots aren't really all that useful either, I mean you can hide from Jason and not light up in the cabin, But when Jason comes in and your Counselor still freaking screams, It gets annoying pretty quickly, Same with the Counselor Screaming while Jason is like 70 Feet away from the cabin they are in, Most of these Things need to be changed, Since it removes any and all ability of staying sneaky.

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@VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow

I agree that there are issues with stealth counselors but I don't think a nerf to Jason is the answer.

I play mostly as AJ and I do fairly well stealth-wise but I encounter stuff that I'd like to see changed. Examples being entering a hiding spot, it should be silent for stealth characters. A stealth character should be able to crouch-walk without making noise. Stuff like that. I don't think Jason's abilities are the issue. I think an overall poor handling of how stealth were implimented is the issue- stuff like the useless 'Hold Your Breath' mechanic too.

@SmugDoka

See above.

Also, AJ is far from useless. I'll disagree with that all day long.

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Just now, bewareofbears said:

@VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow

I agree that there are issues with stealth counselors but I don't think a nerf to Jason is the answer.

I play mostly as AJ and I do fairly well stealth-wise but I encounter stuff that I'd like to see changed. Examples being entering a hiding spot, it should be silent for stealth characters. A stealth character should be able to crouch-walk without making noise. Stuff like that. I don't think Jason's abilities are the issue. I think an overall poor handling of how stealth were implimented is the issue- stuff like the useless 'Hold Your Breath' mechanic too.

@SmugDoka

See above.

Also, AJ is far from useless. I'll disagree with that all day long.

Also see my comment again, I agreed that Stealth and Composure aren't the only issue and the stats need to be Changed

Also Most AJs I see (When My friend plays, Don't have the game my self but I play with him sometimes) Die quite a lot, It might be because the Players are Pretty Bad or something, But I kind of agree That AJ isn't really all that useless (Contradicting my self again) Since I used to play a lot as AJ, I almost always escaped with her,  But I worked as a Team Based AJ Rather than a Lone wolf.

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@SmugDoka

I do the lone wolf thing. I do fine. I really need to work on working as a team but I'm so used to a mixed bag in Quick Play that I generally keep to myself.

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Just now, bewareofbears said:

@SmugDoka

I do the lone wolf thing. I do fine. I really need to work on working as a team but I'm so used to a mixed bag in Quick Play that I generally keep to myself.

QP And working as a Team is something that will never go Together, Unless you get a Team who is actually competent enough to understand that you are trying to get Deborah to fix the freaking car because you gathered the parts as Tiffany, BUT NO SHE HAS TO GO AND FIGHT JASON.

^ That described most of my teams in QP.

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Just now, SmugDoka said:

QP And working as a Team is something that will never go Together, Unless you get a Team who is actually competent enough to understand that you are trying to get Deborah to fix the freaking car because you gathered the parts as Tiffany, BUT NO SHE HAS TO GO AND FIGHT JASON.

^ That described most of my teams in QP.

I find Quick Play to be the better experience personally. I like that I'm not going against a competitive assault team. Feels more genuine and true to how the situation would play out in a film or life.

I find random alliances happening and then being disregarded just as quickly. Teamwork exists in Quick Play but it's fleeting.

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12 minutes ago, bewareofbears said:

I find Quick Play to be the better experience personally. I like that I'm not going against a competitive assault team. Feels more genuine and true to how the situation would play out in a film or life.

I find random alliances happening and then being disregarded just as quickly. Teamwork exists in Quick Play but it's fleeting.

Well I still have fun in Quick Play, And to be honest, I don't really care if That One Deb won't fix things, Tiffany is ready to get her hands dirty, But lately I have been playing Different kinds of PM(Enjoying some in game rp with friends) So I haven't played QP in a bit.

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27 minutes ago, bewareofbears said:

@VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow

I agree that there are issues with stealth counselors but I don't think a nerf to Jason is the answer.

I play mostly as AJ and I do fairly well stealth-wise but I encounter stuff that I'd like to see changed. Examples being entering a hiding spot, it should be silent for stealth characters. A stealth character should be able to crouch-walk without making noise. Stuff like that. I don't think Jason's abilities are the issue. I think an overall poor handling of how stealth were implimented is the issue- stuff like the useless 'Hold Your Breath' mechanic too.

@SmugDoka

See above.

Also, AJ is far from useless. I'll disagree with that all day long.

I would combine your examples with having Sense reset when turned off early, in addition to the many buffs I'd give to Jason as outlined in my other threads. I would make Jason more deadly in other respects but just slightly nerf Sense so that stealth would be a bit more meaningful.

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@Ahab: I understand your concerns and I do appreciate your criticisms, and I assure you that I'm not wanting to see stealth Counselors turn into ninjas, but to see Counselors get more out of Stealth just as Chad, Jenny, and Vanessa do with their high Luck statistic.

As it stands, you need to invest 9 points out of 10 in Stealth for that statistic to be considered to have a worthwhile use, which is being able to jog silently with no drawbacks. Any value below 9 is a waste of points, and that's far too many points needed to even get any mileage out of Stealth.

Hence why I proposed the idea of offering more benefits for a high Stealth ranking, in exchange for the player being mindful of their Counselor's Fear Level, which forces player to manage their Fear Level to continue receiving their benefits while keeping a look out for Jason's current position in case his presence will make you gain more Fear.

An innate 'Sense' avoidance for Counselors with a Stealth at 6/10 and above would sound overpowered on paper, I agree, but from my proposed idea is that if a Jason player actively work to make Counselors gain Fear throughout the match, this benefit should be hard to consistently control unless the Counselor either use perks to reduce Fear gain or play smart.

You're not expected to permanently avoid Jason's 'Sense' radar for a good ten-fifteen minutes until Jason enters 'Rage', you're expected to be aware of when you could lose this benefit more often than not if you don't manage your Fear Level, and even then you could still be found by Jason if he happens to know or guess that you're trying to tackle an objective.

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12 hours ago, JennyMyers1984 said:

We can agree to disagree but I do believe stealth and composure can be rework to be a lot better then they currently are...it’s not a useless stat but you gotta admit it can be reworked to be better then it currently is. I’m not asking for ninjas, I just want a 10/10 composure and a 10/10 stealth to not be as easily found. Tiffany and AJ’s stealth should be like Tommy where they give off little to no pings. Tommy gives off NO pings and very little while swimming. By the way this is off topic but did you ever play with Caliber? I think I saw you in one of his videos.

  As long as stealth and composure are reworked with balance kept in mind, then I wouldn't.... mind. There is a lot to look at from both sides of the discussion.

   I have not played Caliber or even checked out a trailer for it. I will have to look into that one.

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@RichWalk9891 You only need 9 or 10 points to make it as useful as it can possibly be. That is not the only way it can be useful. Just don't base your tactics on one ability alone... that never works out well. Also... even the best, tried and true tactics do not work all the time. Particularly when used consistently against the same players.
   I understand you are not expecting to permanently avoid his sense, but you are suggesting that they have 100% chance to avoid his sense with stealth alone until certain conditions are met. With sense avoidance perks, this could be stretched out... a lot. This IS suggesting that we have super powered ninjas in the game, even if it is just for a few minutes. This can stretch out longer than many matches last already.... without needing any skill at playing the game what so ever to accomplish it. No... nothing is 100% in the game and neither should it be. Even 50% is a flip of a coin... and you can get the same result from a coin flip a great many times in a row, just not all of the time.
   Jason already has several objectives to keep track of. Sometimes, there is just no time to morph to a power box to smash it as a good team is already getting things done. Sure a group that does not play well as a team is going to be easy work for Jason. But groups that work well as a team can consistently escape in large groups many times in a row. I have done it playing counselor and seen it happen from Jason's perspective as well (with high and low level players on either side) many times. People that claim they get 8 / 8 as Jason every time, simply are not playing against people that know what they are doing. Plus, I call bullshit.... nobody is perfect. 
   I do go for the power boxes when I play Jason, just not early on unless they are close to an objective. I have had too many objectives finish too early because I just used morph before hearing someone screw up a repair. There are many things to consider when playing, from both sides.
   Fear management is a thing and many people work hard to keep their fear down already.
   My only real concern here is balance. It should be hard for counselors to escape Jason, under any circumstances, or it is not a challenge at all. Jason needs to be overpowered against his seven opponents. But I am not asking for a cakewalk as Jason either. Remember, as it is now... if the counselors stick to objectives, the cops can be called in the first minute. This leads to many counselors escaping a lot. It is not that hard to evade Jason for a short period of time and with practice, you can evade him even with the slowest counselors for very long periods of time. Jason going after someone at the police barricade usually leads to him eating a pocket knife and them escaping... or Jason grabbing someone and getting hit with a bat and then both escaping..... you get my meaning here. The situations vary. Also do not forget the car. If Jason misses the car once.... up to four counselors are gone. He almost never gets a second chance unless the driver cannot drive well or takes the long way around. For these reasons alone, it is already a challenge for Jason.... if players work towards their objectives.... and good players work towards objectives.
   Balancing the game so Jason has a hard time against players that cannot work together is entirely the wrong direction to go here. If this was done, it would be impossible for Jason to get even one kill against even a semi-coordinated team. Many people just need to rethink their tactics within the existing mechanics. There is an achievement you get for being killed by Jason 100 times for a reason... escaping is not supposed to be a cake walk. The achievement for killing Jason only requires it to be done once for a reason too... it is supposed to be very hard to do.

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