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Nougat

Balancing The Game For QP and PM

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The issue of balancing seems to fly around without any reasonable resolution and usually leads to a lot of arguing moreso than debates. With that said, having hit 150 for the third time after this double XP weekend, I can say I have a decent amount of hours/experience in the game and I would like to put in my two cents without really favoring either side or being biased.

On one end, a lot of players here on the forums and many more who are not here on the forums play QP, and more often than not, Jason will be seen as stronger in an environement where the playerbase is typically less coordinated, though this isn't always the case as sometimes you can run into a good group of players on there. The recent Jason buff and counselor nerf have mostly put the ball back into Jason's court, and while Jason can still be kited by faster counselors, his recent speed boost has made the game a lot more overwhelming for repair counselors. Adding to that, someone good at kiting going up against someone equally has skilled in the Jason department will end in the kiter not lasting very long. By no means do I consider myself the best Jason, but I steamroll QP lobbies sometimes even before I get Stalk because of the amount of time and practice I put into refining my skill with Jason. So a Jason of my calibur or even better will annihilate QP lobbies and mke the game seem unplayable at times.

On the other end, there are Private Matches, where regardless of your skill as Jason, a group of 7 veteran counselors all with mics and good perks are going to attack objectives early and eat your traps like a bowl of cinnamon toast crunch. Jason simply can't be at two places at once, and while you may nab a few kills, you typically won't be cleaning a lobby against some of the best counselor players, period. This is especially true on small maps, where you will have to worry about two cars every single time, since a boat doesn't spawn in small maps. The thing is, counselors attack objectives so fast because the items for objectives may as well spawn right on the objective with how close to the objective they end up spawning anyways. Similar to a high level Jason ending QP lobbies like it's no one's business, high level counselor play in Private Matches are pretty skewed for counselors.

A middle ground I have been thinking about a lot lately is revamping the location of objective spawns and making them completely random so objectives aren't finished pretty much instantly against a group of high level counselors. On Jason's end, his speed being brought back to what it was or somewhere inbetween where it is now and where it was would make repair characters valued a bit more again, since the objective item spawn location revamp would be a nerf to QP counselors as well, Jason's speed being reduced should be pretty balanced.

Sure, there is the argument of Vanessas and Chads being buffed by a reduced speed Jason, but even the game tells you a direct approach is not always the best option. With the current pocket knife ratio, it's as simple as making sure doors are broken so if they window camp you, you mix up what side you shift on since they won't have the time to react to a fastly cancelled shift grab. Having good aim and being able to instant throw the throwing knives accurately on a consistent basis will also go a long way in killing kiters as if they were repair characters. Adding to that, quick reactions and quick input times on your block as Jason will render even Epic Swift Attacker to be useless unless the ping is bad. After you block, cancel your block with sprint+grab and you should be able to grab them before they can sprint away if you are fast enough. If they have a knife, that is one less knife.

Overall I think Jason players who aren't using all of his tools and who aren't mixing up their approaches and refining their skill with knives, shift grabs and learning to break all doors in cabins to be able to deal with window camping are just hurting themselves. 

This topic isn't about chain stunning and other group counselor shenanigans, as I have faith that will be dealt with in one of the upcoming patched since it is an issue that has been touched upon a lot now.

I went off on a bit of a tangent on how to use Jason because most people thinking he need buffs or doesn't need nerfs tend to play him in a pretty basic manner. 

Jason could also use a significant HP buff. Tommy knocks the mask off in 1 hit with a heavy attack. If you slash him, his counter attack will hit you before you can block. If you grab him, you get pocket knifed and then he will knock the mask off with the exploit that lets you hit Jason during the recovery frames of him dropping the knife and the player regaining control.

TL;DR: Reduce Jason's speed. Jason players who can't deal with that, git gud. Give Jason enough HP to not get one shotted by Tommy. Randomize objective item spawns so they aren't 5 inches away from objectives. Repair characters will be able to breathe and Jason won't have to worry about both car starting in 5 minutes. Pocket Knife, Med Spray and Weapon ratio are fine. The point is to escape, not fight for 20 minutes.

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32 minutes ago, Nougat said:

The point is to escape, not fight for 20 minutes.

This right here was the perfect ending for your thread.

I believe @Alkavian noted that the speed boost to Jason was minimal, but it sure seems that counselors have somehow, gotten slower.

My only explanation for that is since counselors have less defense, they have a smaller chance of gaining enough distance from Jason to calm their composure, therefore since composure effects stamina regen, you appear slower but you really aren't. I tested this in Private Match with Tiffany, composure of 1 and Jenny, composure of 10. I had no issues at all keeping good stamina and speed with Jenny, but had an awful time with Tiffany. I guess Jenny really isn't useless anymore.

I agree, Jason should have more HP. I believe it should be very rewarding to kill Jason, like an easter egg.

Causing repair parts to spawn farther away from objectives is a good idea for PM, but not so much for QP. I'm sure you can already see why, having leveled up to 150 three times now.

And you're right - a lot of people casually play Jason. But when someone who knows what they're doing has him in their possession, he's an unstoppable threat - when not up against a full lobby of pros with mics who will more than likely stun lock Jason to Hell; which I honestly consider cheating, even though I myself have resulted to that kind of gameplay because I feel I don't really have any other choice if I'm playing to win.

Blocking goes an incredible way with Jason Voorhees, it takes an incredible amount of hits to demask Jason while wailing on him and him not fighting back. The only time he stuns is when he is demasked, which also, takes a crap ton of hits to do - you can't achieve it with a Jason who is trying to kill you, just a Jason who is allowing you to beat him up for testing purposes. It's super fast to trigger the block as well. Just ask @Bropollocreed79, he tested its effectiveness with me.

Hardly anyone utilizes it, but that's not the game's fault as some might say, right?

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Here's a few ideas, maybe they'll work:

Jason's movement speed starts out at the original speed, but then slowly ramps up to the current speed as the match goes on. By the time he gets Rage, he has the current movement speed. Maybe even tie it in to the rage meter. Say for every 10% the rage meter increases, his movement speed goes up incrementally. It would give repair characters a chance at first but it wouldn't last.

There should be stun resistance frames for the pocket knife stab animation, definitely. Jason should be resistant to stuns until the player regains control. Chained stuns should be much shorter. If he gets stunned again within maybe a 7-10 second period of a previous one, that stun is much shorter.

For objectives it can partially be solved by relocating certain ones, like say on Jarvis have the phone occasionally spawn on the east and west peninsula/island to make it harder to get to. Even the closest cabin to those areas is a good distance away. I'd also like to see the phone spawn in the kitchen of the Jarvis house, like in the movie. I don't want repair parts spawning entirely opposite of the objective, say within 2/3 of the map area from that objective.

On Camp Crystal Lake large if the phone spawned at the boat house, that would make water Jasons more powerful by being able to patrol the coast more effectively. On Pinehurst they could add a phone spawn to Ethel's house south of the barn since it is so out of the way, and I've never seen an important item spawn there. The barn is big enough to fit a car inside so maybe a car could actually spawn inside of it, with appropriate barriers to prevent blocking off certain areas.

The small maps need to give Jason shorter cooldowns on his abilities since the maps are geared towards counselors heavily. And reduce weapons on small maps by maybe 10%.

Maybe repair characters could be made more valuable by adding a crafting system. They could take the basic 2x4 and tree branch and attach knives or nails or whatnot to them. They'd have to rebalance how many weapons spawn on the map, but it could be cool. They would become more valuable by being able to provide the team with weapons.

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@Nougat, I agree with many points, but I think you are underestimating repair counselors.  I'm under the assumption that many players that choose repair counselor (not all mind you) have poor combat abilities (because otherwise they would pick Chad, lol), so the increase to Jason's grab and speed is too much for them.  All counselors can fight, even slow ones, but repair character should get out since they will lose weapons fast.

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2 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

Here's a few ideas, maybe they'll work:

Jason's movement speed starts out at the original speed, but then slowly ramps up to the current speed as the match goes on. By the time he gets Rage, he has the current movement speed. Maybe even tie it in to the rage meter. Say for every 10% the rage meter increases, his movement speed goes up incrementally. It would give repair characters a chance at first but it wouldn't last.

There should be stun resistance frames for the pocket knife stab animation, definitely. Jason should be resistant to stuns until the player regains control. Chained stuns should be much shorter. If he gets stunned again within maybe a 7-10 second period of a previous one, that stun is much shorter.

For objectives it can partially be solved by relocating certain ones, like say on Jarvis have the phone occasionally spawn on the east and west peninsula/island to make it harder to get to. Even the closest cabin to those areas is a good distance away. I'd also like to see the phone spawn in the kitchen of the Jarvis house, like in the movie. I don't want repair parts spawning entirely opposite of the objective, say within 2/3 of the map area from that objective.

Maybe repair characters could be made more valuable by adding a crafting system. They could take the basic 2x4 and tree branch and attach knives or nails or whatnot to them. They'd have to rebalance how many weapons spawn on the map, but it could be cool. They would become more valuable by being able to provide the team with weapons.

His speed going up as the match goes on seems fine since the objective of the game is to escape as quickly as possible. A distance ratio for random objective items spawning would be fine, I was speaking moreso on the subject that them spawning pretty much right on objectives is pretty absurd.

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I really don't understand the perception that repair characters are handicapped now with the recent Jason speed "increase". The trade-off for having a high repair stat is you aren't going to be running away too fast.

If that's what you are expecting then you probably want to change counselors.

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Sensible post.

I still think the battle meta and wasting time for 20 minutes are some of the biggest reasons why both nobody escapes or bothers trying to escape. I don't think this is gonna change much if you slow Jason down. It'll just make repair counselors more likely to engage in combat too.

Why escape when you can battle/try to kill Jason and if not kite for 20 minutes?

This effectively makes Repair and Stealth characters completely useless in the current game.

Most people aren't in favor of putting the timer on Jason's side. Thought I definitely think it would make sense on a map like Lazurus. The ship is sinking for fucks sake. Jason isn't going to lose because the Lazurus sinks...the counselors are going to drown because they can't swim forever.

I feel like there need to be more to raise the stakes on counselor side as the timer moves on. Maybe its as simple as buffing rage, maybe you allow Jason to know where the Tommy radio is and the generator tied to it to start the match. This might free up more objectives for repair counselors because Jason might actually defend the Tommy radio to prevent the kill mechanic. There need to be more stakes involved I feel.

Making Jason more difficult to kill would be a decent trade off if they slowed him down slightly. The problem is your still going to have those who value speed over anything else and in that case,  its either strengthening up Jason even more as the match goes on or slowing down the fastest counselors while buffing Repair/Stealth/Composure based counselors to some degree to the point where escaping is going to be priority over all the other side things.

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Just now, MRWood204 said:

I really don't understand the perception that repair characters are handicapped now with the recent Jason speed "increase". The trade-off for having a high repair stat is you aren't going to be running away too fast.

If that's what you are expecting then you probably want to change counselors.

If everyone changes to a fast counselor because those who can't run often die early on, then there would be no repair people.

See the problem?

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@GeneiJin As someone who mostly uses Jason, I never underestimate any counselor's capability, but good combat skills or not, their luck is not the best and they tend to have repair items on them, especially in QP where virtually no one ferries parts. Any half decent Jason can still shift grab them with ease since they won't have the running speed nor the stamina to juke consistently.

@MRWood204 I play Chad. Also the trade off is repair items not spawning right on top of the car, boat etc. Also, any compotent Jason can still deal with repair characters with ease. Bad Jasons getting rewarded by Jason being able to easily overwhelm repair counselors due to this patch isn't really a good look.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, stoney said:

If everyone changes to a fast counselor because those who can't run often die early on, then there would be no repair people.

See the problem?

Stop running and start hiding. It's surprising how often this works.

If you are going to play as Deb, or Lachappa, you shouldn't expect to out-run Jason. You need a better plan, and that involves knowing your escape route or where a bed in a cabin is if you spawn close to an objective.

Instead of playing to the counselor's strengths, people just seem to want to rework the counselors to fit their own strengths instead of just picking someone else.

And I've played in multiple lobbies full of Vanessas and Chads, with me being the only Deb. I can't remember the last time I was the first to die, or even dies within the first 10 minutes (it's happened, its just not as often as people seem to post about here for me)

I am HORRIBLE when I play as Vanessa, you don't see me asking to increase her Stamina because I suck at managing it.

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10 minutes ago, Nougat said:

@GeneiJin As someone who mostly uses Jason, I never underestimate any counselor's capability, but good combat skills or not, their luck is not the best and they tend to have repair items on them, especially in QP where virtually no one ferries parts. Any half decent Jason can still shift grab them with ease since they won't have the running speed nor the stamina to juke consistently

I play Jenny and Vanessa, I can tell you speed is actually not the most important factor avoid shift-grabs, its knowing when, where, and how Jason is doing it, cabin hop even when you think Jason isn't around to regan stamina.  Luck is a issue, that is why suckerpunch + wrenches is a good combo with every counselor.  But thats the trade off.  Less combat advantages, but easier time with repairs while pressured by Jason.

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11 minutes ago, stoney said:

If everyone changes to a fast counselor because those who can't run often die early on, then there would be no repair people.

See the problem?

Fast Counselors die fast too... 

I love being in Lobbies as Jason with all Fast Counselors.    Knowing full well that most objectives will get messed up and give me a sound que.  :D

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11 minutes ago, tyrant666 said:

Sensible post.

I still think the battle meta and wasting time for 20 minutes are some of the biggest reasons why both nobody escapes or bothers trying to escape. I don't think this is gonna change much if you slow Jason down. It'll just make repair counselors more likely to engage in combat too.

Why escape when you can battle/try to kill Jason and if not kite for 20 minutes?

This effectively makes Repair and Stealth characters completely useless in the current game.

Most people aren't in favor of putting the timer on Jason's side. Thought I definitely think it would make sense on a map like Lazurus. The ship is sinking for fucks sake. Jason isn't going to lose because the Lazurus sinks...the counselors are going to drown because they can't swim forever.

I feel like there need to be more to raise the stakes on counselor side as the timer moves on. Maybe its as simple as buffing rage, maybe you allow Jason to know where the Tommy radio is and the generator tied to it to start the match. This might free up more objectives for repair counselors because Jason might actually defend the Tommy radio to prevent the kill mechanic. There need to be more stakes involved I feel.

Making Jason more difficult to kill would be a decent trade off if they slowed him down slightly. The problem is your still going to have those who value speed over anything else and in that case,  its either strengthening up Jason even more as the match goes on or slowing down the fastest counselors while buffing Repair/Stealth/Composure based counselors to some degree to the point where escaping is going to be priority over all the other side things.

I can see how slowing Jason down could work against its own purpose, but the speed nerf won't effect how easy it is to shift grab any repair counselor because their top end speed simply isn't enough to even attempt a juke. If they have a knife, rinse and repeat, they will still get eaten alive by shift. The point is to give them a little bit of room to breathe, not to make life easy street for repair characters.

1 minute ago, MRWood204 said:

Stop running and start hiding. It's surprising how often this works.

If you are going to play as Deb, or Lachappa, you shouldn't expect to out-run Jason. You need a better plan, and that involves knowing your escape route or where a bed in a cabin is if you spawn close to an objective.

Instead of playing to the counselor's strengths, people just seem to want to rework the counselors to fit their own strengths instead of just picking someone else.

And I've played in multiple lobbies full of Vanessas and Chads, with me being the only Deb. I can't remember the last time I was the first to die, or even dies within the first 10 minutes (it's happened, its just not as often as people seem to post about here for me)

I am HORRIBLE when I play as Vanessa, you don't see me asking to increase her Stamina because I suck at managing it.

Again, I don't play repair characters and Jason can still kill them via shift. It's like Jasons can never make any adaptations and expect counselors to make all of them. It's a minor nerf in return for a buff that makes Jason not have to worry about objectives being fixed in 2 minutes. Stamina management when Jason outruns your jog is pretty improbable without risking your life by going for a weapon swing to get more stamina.

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7 minutes ago, Nougat said:

Bad Jasons getting rewarded by Jason being able to easily overwhelm repair counselors due to this patch isn't really a good look.

See, I have to disagree. Jason was always going to beat a repair character in a foot race. If you are going to label someone as a "bad" player, it's the one who picked Deb or Lachappa and thought they could out run Jason.

I get what you are saying about the repair items spawning close to objectives in a small map, but it's supposed to be a fast-paced map. If you know you are playing a small map, switch up your approach.

It just seems like players want to change the game to adapt to their playstyles, instead of adapting their playstyles to the different scenarios within the game.

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15 minutes ago, MRWood204 said:

Stop running and start hiding. It's surprising how often this works.

If you are going to play as Deb, or Lachappa, you shouldn't expect to out-run Jason. You need a better plan, and that involves knowing your escape route or where a bed in a cabin is if you spawn close to an objective.

Instead of playing to the counselor's strengths, people just seem to want to rework the counselors to fit their own strengths instead of just picking someone else.

And I've played in multiple lobbies full of Vanessas and Chads, with me being the only Deb. I can't remember the last time I was the first to die, or even dies within the first 10 minutes (it's happened, its just not as often as people seem to post about here for me)

I am HORRIBLE when I play as Vanessa, you don't see me asking to increase her Stamina because I suck at managing it.

Okay. Because running into a cabin then hiding in it causes Jason to become completely unaware that he just pursued you into this cabin and you magically no longer appear on sense...

If you suck at managing Vanessa's stamina, then you must by default, suck at managing all counselor stamina. Not trying to seem rude, but I guess that's why you result to hiding in closets for purposes other than diminishing fear.

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4 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

I play Jenny and Vanessa, I can tell you speed is actually not the most important factor avoid shift-grabs, its knowing when, where, and how Jason is doing it, cabin hop even when you think Jason isn't around to regan stamina.  Luck is a issue, that is why suckerpunch + wrenches is a good combo with every counselor.  But thats the trade off.  Less combat advantages, but easier time with repairs while pressured by Jason.

Speed is an issue in the similar sense of the whole car rubberbanding thing. If you go for a sprint juke as at the right moment as Vanessa, you will cover more ground than Jenny did no matter how miniscule the difference, especially if the ping spikes or is acting wonky, Jenny is more likely to be shift grabbed in that scenario if Jason has faster ping because where you think you ran hasn't processed as an input on the Jason's end yet. I play Chad and I'm pretty well versed in kiting Jason. Juking shift can come down to speed if you are not right by a window. I didn't mean it in the way of senselessly running and burning stamina, I meant short bursts and wuick jukes. Every pixel counts and faster counselors cover more ground in their jukes.

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2 minutes ago, stoney said:

Okay. Because running into a cabin then hiding in it causes Jason to become completely unaware that he just pursued you into this cabin and you magically no loner appear on sense...

Hiding works.. Plain and simple.  

Example..  Jump into a cabin with 6-8 beds.    Jason is going to have to waste alot of time stabbing beds.  May just give up.  Or not..

Or sometimes just good hiding spot can throw Jason into a long search, wasting his time.   

Being sneaky and staying off Jason radar, is just as much a skill as juking Jason in chases.

 

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Just now, stoney said:

Okay. Because running into a cabin then hiding in it causes Jason to become completely unaware that he just pursued you into this cabin and you magically no loner appear on sense...

Early on in the match.....it does. Unless he sees you going into the cabin, like I believe you are saying, in that case you can pray that you get away. Unless I'm in a cabin far from others, it isn't that difficult early on, even as Deb, to get away and move from cabin to cabin.

5 minutes ago, stoney said:

If you suck at managing Vanessa's stamina, then you must by default, suck at managing all counselor stamina. Not trying to seem rude, but I guess that's why you result to hiding in closets for purposes other than diminishing fear.

No, I am good with Deb's because I am used to it. With Vanessa it's like I won the lottery and I just spend it without knowing where it is going or what I did with it.

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I feel like there's a lot of decent ideas on this page, but I don't have the mental capacity to take on the wall of text right now... Maybe after my coffee...

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1 minute ago, Nougat said:

Speed is an issue in the similar sense of the whole car rubberbanding thing. If you go for a sprint juke as at the right moment as Vanessa, you will cover more ground than Jenny did no matter how miniscule the difference, especially if the ping spikes or is acting wonky, Jenny is more likely to be shift grabbed in that scenario if Jason has faster ping because where you think you ran hasn't processed as an input on the Jason's end yet. I play Chad and I'm pretty well versed in kiting Jason. Juking shift can come down to speed if you are not right by a window. I didn't mean it in the way of senselessly running and burning stamina, I meant short bursts and wuick jukes. Every pixel counts and faster counselors cover more ground in their jukes.

You don't need to explain to me about the advantages of speed, I know full well of them.  But to claim that slow counselor are at the complete mercy of the shift-grab is untrue.  Pretty much every game I go for the Sweater, and the past month I've been doing it with Jenny.  Most times I can still even retain my Pocket Knife (if I have one :P) while he tunnels me before he leave because of priorities or Tommy.

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8 minutes ago, MRWood204 said:

See, I have to disagree. Jason was always going to beat a repair character in a foot race. If you are going to label someone as a "bad" player, it's the one who picked Deb or Lachappa and thought they could out run Jason.

I get what you are saying about the repair items spawning close to objectives in a small map, but it's supposed to be a fast-paced map. If you know you are playing a small map, switch up your approach.

It just seems like players want to change the game to adapt to their playstyles, instead of adapting their playstyles to the different scenarios within the game.

I was referring to all maps besides Jarvis House. Even on Pinehurst the objective items spawn relatively close and that is supposed to be the largest map. Granted that map has a lot of choke points for both the car and the boat. No one playing Deb or LaChappa should expect to outrun Jason, it's the mattee of how fast they get overwhelmed this patch, not the fact that they get overwhelmed to begin with.

I almost never die as a counselor in QP and I haven't went any less than 7/7 or 8/8 since December unless someone suicided or disconnected, so I am not trying to change the game to my liking at all. 

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2 minutes ago, MRWood204 said:

Early on in the match.....it does. Unless he sees you going into the cabin, like I believe you are saying, in that case you can pray that you get away. Unless I'm in a cabin far from others, it isn't that difficult early on, even as Deb, to get away and move from cabin to cabin.

No, I am good with Deb's because I am used to it. With Vanessa it's like I won the lottery and I just spend it without knowing where it is going or what I did with it.

For some reason this website is being funny for me, so if I have delayed responses it's because whenever I go to reply or edit, the whole damn website breaks, this just began occurring.

But that's the issue people are complaining about - when Jason is pursuing you as a slow counselor. Not when Jason doesn't notice you and you hear his music then decide to hide under a bed to avoid sense detection. As you noted, that method is only good early on.

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2 minutes ago, GeneiJin said:

You don't need to explain to me about the advantages of speed, I know full well of them.  But to claim that slow counselor are at the complete mercy of the shift-grab is untrue.  Pretty much every game I go for the Sweater, and the past month I've been doing it with Jenny.  Most times I can still even retain my Pocket Knife (if I have one :P) while he tunnels me before he leave because of priorities or Tommy.

They aren't at the complete mercy of it, but against high level Jasons? They are more likely to get scooped up when attempting a juke because they don't cover as much ground as a fast counselor does when jason cancels his shift. On console if you cancel shift with right trigger and almost simultaneously press left trigger, there is no delay between the shift ending and the grab coming out. That is were having the extra speed to escape grab range helps so much when you go for a juke. Not that you need it explained, but slow counselors are simply not fast enough to escape that range if shift is cancelled into grab instantaneously.

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@stoney You are correct about later on in matches, being pursued as a slow counselor is almost always a death sentence for me. But those counselors aren't built to last the whole match. If we are 10 or 15 minutes into a match, and nothing is repaired or I didn't happen to get out in a vehicle that was, it just is what it is. My best chances of survival are attacking the objectives fast and early, that's what my counselor is good at. If nothing is done, there are only a handful of us left, I KNOW I'm the low hanging fruit.

@Nougat I don't really understand your issues with repair item spawns, if you have gotten 7/7 and 8/8 since December.

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10 minutes ago, Nougat said:

They aren't at the complete mercy of it, but against high level Jasons? They are more likely to get scooped up when attempting a juke because they don't cover as much ground as a fast counselor does when jason cancels his shift. On console if you cancel shift with right trigger and almost simultaneously press left trigger, there is no delay between the shift ending and the grab coming out. That is were having the extra speed to escape grab range helps so much when you go for a juke. Not that you need it explained, but slow counselors are simply not fast enough to escape that range if shift is cancelled into grab instantaneously.

I thought your way until I started to main Jenny.  Knowing how Jason is going to exit shift and what direction his grab is coming out is the most important factor.  I use Nerves of Steel on just about all my counselors, I always see the shift coming if he was already on my map.  I'll juke at the last moment at a angle that is unfavorable to his shift range.  Mix up how you juke once Jason sees this.  I've kited good Jasons as much as 10 mins w/ Jenny to survive the night understanding this.  Yes, Speed counselor do have a edge (until you stumble, lol), but its not a overwhelming so. 

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