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Nougat

Balancing The Game For QP and PM

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@MRWood204 The repair item spawn is an issue in PM, as I have stated. Jason's speed is an issue in QP where less coordinated get tore apart pretty easily. The item spawn change would indirectly buff Jason in QP, making the issue of less speed not as big.

@GeneiJin Nerves of Steel is great and very underused IMO, and I agree with your statement. However, it isn't me having this issue, I can kite good Jasons just fine. I am saying on average in QP, repair characters using Nerves of Steel and knowing perfect juke routes is unlikely and even good routes are more like to get grabbed if Jason guesses right because of the issue of slow speed. I understand your point in juking shift, but in the brief moment where shift ends, if Jason guessed right, a fast counselor has just enough speed to pivot out of range where a slower one would be in ramge because of the lack of ground covered from their speed. If Jason still had force grab, then I wouldn't even try to argue that speed is irrelevant, but his T-Rex range makes speed valuable in quick burst instances.

Edited by Nougat

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18 minutes ago, Nougat said:

 

@GeneiJin repair characters using Nerves of Steel and knowing perfect juke routes is unlikely

If you mean for the "average player" then I agree.  As I mentioned on my first post, the buffs Jason received effects the less skilled players most, but they also can't repair with non-repair counselors. Ether way they're boned :rolleyes:.

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10 minutes ago, Nougat said:

Jason's speed is an issue in QP where less coordinated get tore apart pretty easily

Jason's speed aside, this has always been the case in QP, except for that time when everyone got 3 pockentknives. Being uncoordinated isn't something the game can fix.

For PM, everyone usually IS coordinated. And yes, this can make it more difficult as Jason, but then, if you didn't want the challenge, don't play it.

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1 minute ago, GeneiJin said:

If you mean for the "average player" then I agree.  As I mentioned on my first post, the buffs Jason received effects the less skilled players most, but they also can't repair with non-repair counselors. Ether way they're boned :rolleyes:.

Yes, but them being boned say a minute or even 30 seconds could make a difference in someone coming to help them during that time frame. By no means do I want Jason nerfed to the ground. Just changes that benefit both sides.

Just now, MRWood204 said:

Jason's speed aside, this has always been the case in QP, except for that time when everyone got 3 pockentknives. Being uncoordinated isn't something the game can fix.

For PM, everyone usually IS coordinated. And yes, this can make it more difficult as Jason, but then, if you didn't want the challenge, don't play it.

I enjoy the challenge, don't get me wrong, but objective item spawns not spawning right on objectives on 6/7 maps would be nice. They technically spawn close on Pinehurst in terms of the nearest cabin to an objective, but the cabins are pretty widespread and even fixed objectives are difficult to escape with on that map. As for QP, yes uncoordinated counselors will always be in trouble, but a less experienced player using a repair character and not getting overwhelmed by Jasons current run speed so quickly gives kiters time to locate them and attempt to get Jason on them instead. I don't expect perfect play to magically come out of the changes I listed.

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2 minutes ago, MRWood204 said:

Jason's speed aside, this has always been the case in QP, except for that time when everyone got 3 pockentknives. Being uncoordinated isn't something the game can fix.

For PM, everyone usually IS coordinated. And yes, this can make it more difficult as Jason, but then, if you didn't want the challenge, don't play it.

LOL this was a issue even in last patch in QP when players will just "hand over" thier PKs as soon as Jason shows up :P.  I love the challenges and battling a being the can end me with a mistake is trilling, but many "causal" players expect to feel good about themselves just by playing, FUCK EARNING IT!!! :pocketknife::pocketknife::pocketknife:

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Simple.

 

TWO SEPARATE PATCHES FOR QP AND PM. 

 

 

 OP Jason more for PM matches between counselors who used mics with a separate PM patch, and give QP  counselors similar benefits to the pre-current patch for ONLY QP.    Jason won't be as big of a pinata has he was before because of the improved grab but the difficulty level will be spread more even with less Rage quitting like we got now

 

 

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I agree with a lot of your points, but disagree on reducing Jason’s speed, and this is coming from a person that always plays Jenny, Lachappa. Jason shouldn’t Git Gud anymore that counselors should git gud on stamina management and map awareness.

 

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14 minutes ago, DorianRo said:

TWO SEPARATE PATCHES FOR QP AND PM.

Just about all my games are in QP.   Trust me, this game doesn't need to make it easier for me (or anyone else skilled for that matter) against the poor soul that has his/her pref set to counselor that happened to get Jason that game.  I can't count how many Jason's just rage quit after unsuccessfully tunning me for however long, let alone the threat of the J-kill during THIS PATCH.  Jason's buff IS A GOOD THING!!!

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To be honest, surviving as a repair counselor is no more difficult now versus Jason's speed increase than it was before for me. The bump is too negligible to even be noticed. The drop in pocket knives has made things a bit tougher, but I was never reliant on them to survive to begin with. I keep playing as I did since launch using tried and true strategies I've found that work for me as a repair character main. I don't even run medic except for on Shelly. 

The enemy of any repair character is poor Stamina management and bad situational awareness. It's not being slow or less proficient in combat. Those don't help, of course, but the issue isn't the end of repair character effectiveness.

You are more vulnerable to tunneling, but that is why your indoor hiding and evasion have to be on point. You can't afford to evade for long outdoors.

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@Nougat

I disagree about reducing Jason's speed. I won't play walking Jasons because I have no urge to be looped around a table.

I only ever play A.J. and I'm escaping fairly often lately.

The goal isn't to beat Jason in a race, the goal is to outwit him. If all you are doing is trying to outrun Jason, you're going to die.

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11 hours ago, DorianRo said:

Simple.

 

TWO SEPARATE PATCHES FOR QP AND PM. 

 

 

 OP Jason more for PM matches between counselors who used mics with a separate PM patch, and give QP  counselors similar benefits to the pre-current patch for ONLY QP.    Jason won't be as big of a pinata has he was before because of the improved grab but the difficulty level will be spread more even with less Rage quitting like we got now

 

 

Jesus fuck Dorian. Quit fucking whining in every thread about how you still cant survive this patch. Get some fucking skill and get over it. Sorry for my lack of tact, but you are becoming monotonous.

As for this thread, simple answer to your problems: private match toggable options. Sliders to increase or descrease speed, weapon counts, item counts, etc. You can change it based off group you are playing with. 

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11 hours ago, GeneiJin said:

Just about all my games are in QP.   Trust me, this game doesn't need to make it easier for me (or anyone else skilled for that matter) against the poor soul that has his/her pref set to counselor that happened to get Jason that game.  I can't count how many Jason's just rage quit after unsuccessfully tunning me for however long, let alone the threat of the J-kill during THIS PATCH.  Jason's buff IS A GOOD THING!!!

... This game isn't just about YOU!!!!!!   Its about proper balance distribution  to prevent the rage quitting, and making a Smoother introductory period for new onboard counselors/Jasons etc. to where you continue to grow lobbies and not continue to lose so many people 

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10 hours ago, Nougat said:

They aren't at the complete mercy of it, but against high level Jasons? They are more likely to get scooped up when attempting a juke because they don't cover as much ground as a fast counselor does when jason cancels his shift. On console if you cancel shift with right trigger and almost simultaneously press left trigger, there is no delay between the shift ending and the grab coming out. That is were having the extra speed to escape grab range helps so much when you go for a juke. Not that you need it explained, but slow counselors are simply not fast enough to escape that range if shift is cancelled into grab instantaneously.

   I have been playing Mitch (speed 3 just like Lachoppa) for a few weeks in a row, just because I am too lazy to change it to another repair counselor. I have no problem evading Jason and do it in many matches (with slow repair counselors). Sure I do not escape his grasp every game, but no one does.... or should. I do escape even the running Jasons quite often. Kitted three different level 150 (running) Jasons last night (I am at level 150 too) to the point where they realized they should try to kill someone else before the clock runs down..... with Mitch. Not seeing the problem with Jason's speed..... at all.
   If I didn't read the patch notes, I would never have noticed the speed boost on Jason. It was barely noticeable already knowing about it.
   When I play Jason, I do tend to go after repair counselors first when I have to choose between targets. Not because they are slow, but because I see them. If Vanessa had a half decent repair skill, I would go for her first over slower repair counselors. Its not your speed saving you from shift or your evasion skills (though evasion skills help), its luck of the draw and Jason players assuming you are not going to get an objective repaired without them knowing it. Leaving a repair counselor to chase a non repair oriented counselor is counter productive to Jason's own objectives.
   I have no more of a problem grabbing Vanessa, Chad or Bugsy over Lachoppa, Mitch or Adam. The only time I have any problem with a shift grab on any player is due to three things.... Who is luckier on this attempt or makes the first mistake or I underestimated the other player's incredible evasion skills. Even the fastest counselor is not going to escape the range of Jason's shift by running, unless the Jason player starts his shift way too far away, this was a lesson I learned the first time I made that mistake. I learned from that mistake and now I use shift a bit more judiciously. I am nowhere near the best Jason or counselor player around either.... but I will say this.... if you are complaining about Jason's speed because you can't escape him, then right back at you..... "git good".

    I don't mind your idea for a few more HP on Jason, his mask should never come off with just one shot..... He does sometimes lose that mask a bit too easily sometimes or at least, so it seems. Are you sure Jason has not taken any damage before this particular hit? I cannot recall loosing my mask with under three hits, even from Tommy in combat stance, but I could be wrong.... I have been known to play when drinking beer. A few night ago I got three good hits with Tommy using combat stance on Jason with an axe, his mask did not come off and he was able to kill me.
    Randomizing the parts more so than they are.... I have no problem with that at all. Parts do need to spawn further away from objectives, particularly on small maps. Most of the time when I find the fuse, the fuse box is still the next cabin over (big map or small). I do see gas and batteries spawning very close to cars... sometimes. Also, last night... I found gas and the propeller in the two houses closest to the boat. My friend and I had the boat on the move a bit over a minute into the match and escaped. It was a long wait to the next match.
    Also.... not sure how you can get 8/8 so much when escapes like this are not only possible, but happen often enough for people to ask for parts to spawn further away from objectives.

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14 hours ago, Alkavian said:

The enemy of any repair character is poor Stamina management and bad situational awareness.

Very true.  Putting yourself into bad situations is the enemy of any counselor.  Learning how you avoid putting yourself into these is learned from failures.  People need to stop being salty when they lose and learn from their mistakes.  Don't blame the Jason for killing you when you spawn at the fuse or when they slash you to death, it's your fault for not being prepared for it.

3 hours ago, DorianRo said:

... This game isn't just about YOU!!!!!!   Its about proper balance distribution  to prevent the rage quitting, and making a Smoother introductory period for new onboard counselors/Jasons etc. to where you continue to grow lobbies and not continue to lose so many people 

The game isn't about me, I agree.  Everyone I regularly play with is on my level, and many Jasons are not prepared for it.  Rage quiting isn't going to magically be cured by any type of balance.  When people lose and get angry, many will blame anything they can rationalize other than themselves to protect their ego.  I come from a competitive fighting game background, and even the most balance of games people are quick to say "this character is OP" or "That move is sooo unfair and broken".  When the balance is adjusted, you're always going to get people that are satisfied and others feel they were shafted (as you are with this games recent patch).  If you don't like this patch and it ruins the game for you, FINE, you have a right to your own opinion.  Ether adapt and improve to a point where you can now enjoy the game or just quit.  Why torture yourself with a game you no longer enjoy and play something else?  Why continue to bother us about it?  You've already made your point, move on with your life. 

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19 hours ago, Nougat said:

TL;DR: Reduce Jason's speed. Jason players who can't deal with that, git gud. Give Jason enough HP to not get one shotted by Tommy. Randomize objective item spawns so they aren't 5 inches away from objectives. Repair characters will be able to breathe and Jason won't have to worry about both car starting in 5 minutes. Pocket Knife, Med Spray and Weapon ratio are fine. The point is to escape, not fight for 20 minutes.

Reduce? Are you serious? Jason speed isn't even a matter of balance, it's simply a matter of fun character control or not. I rarely post here these days, but when I do it is typically to help people specifically with Jason's character control which has always been his biggest issue. The counselor experience is far smoother, and other than stumbles and phase hits it is superior to the Jason experience which is plagued with many issues which must be circumvented for enjoyable gameplay. 

On the topic of speed, if Jason had the authority of distance at all times, you would find that many ridiculous things about the game would disappear. There would have to be a lot of changes made in tandem to accommodate for that, but I guarantee it would be a better experience for the Jason player in the end. He certainly doesn't need less speed than he does now.

The better solution for balancing between QP and PM would be solid in-game guidance for the newcomers / inexperienced players, and adequate information for them to be able to learn, progress and play to full potential. A few basic changes to encourage teamwork, and strong focus on combat and strategy. Otherwise no wonder there are clueless players running around in most matches with barely any understanding. For those who don't know or don't realise, withholding information from players was a deliberate decision by Gun. 

Hence you have the great divide of random lobbies getting wiped by Jason, but knowledgeable players killing Jason in approx 4 mins with the "Cosby sweater" strat for example. 

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7 hours ago, Ahab said:

   I have been playing Mitch (speed 3 just like Lachoppa) for a few weeks in a row, just because I am too lazy to change it to another repair counselor. I have no problem evading Jason and do it in many matches (with slow repair counselors). Sure I do not escape his grasp every game, but no one does.... or should. I do escape even the running Jasons quite often. Kitted three different level 150 (running) Jasons last night (I am at level 150 too) to the point where they realized they should try to kill someone else before the clock runs down..... with Mitch. Not seeing the problem with Jason's speed..... at all.
   If I didn't read the patch notes, I would never have noticed the speed boost on Jason. It was barely noticeable already knowing about it.
   When I play Jason, I do tend to go after repair counselors first when I have to choose between targets. Not because they are slow, but because I see them. If Vanessa had a half decent repair skill, I would go for her first over slower repair counselors. Its not your speed saving you from shift or your evasion skills (though evasion skills help), its luck of the draw and Jason players assuming you are not going to get an objective repaired without them knowing it. Leaving a repair counselor to chase a non repair oriented counselor is counter productive to Jason's own objectives.
   I have no more of a problem grabbing Vanessa, Chad or Bugsy over Lachoppa, Mitch or Adam. The only time I have any problem with a shift grab on any player is due to three things.... Who is luckier on this attempt or makes the first mistake or I underestimated the other player's incredible evasion skills. Even the fastest counselor is not going to escape the range of Jason's shift by running, unless the Jason player starts his shift way too far away, this was a lesson I learned the first time I made that mistake. I learned from that mistake and now I use shift a bit more judiciously. I am nowhere near the best Jason or counselor player around either.... but I will say this.... if you are complaining about Jason's speed because you can't escape him, then right back at you..... "git good".

    I don't mind your idea for a few more HP on Jason, his mask should never come off with just one shot..... He does sometimes lose that mask a bit too easily sometimes or at least, so it seems. Are you sure Jason has not taken any damage before this particular hit? I cannot recall loosing my mask with under three hits, even from Tommy in combat stance, but I could be wrong.... I have been known to play when drinking beer. A few night ago I got three good hits with Tommy using combat stance on Jason with an axe, his mask did not come off and he was able to kill me.
    Randomizing the parts more so than they are.... I have no problem with that at all. Parts do need to spawn further away from objectives, particularly on small maps. Most of the time when I find the fuse, the fuse box is still the next cabin over (big map or small). I do see gas and batteries spawning very close to cars... sometimes. Also, last night... I found gas and the propeller in the two houses closest to the boat. My friend and I had the boat on the move a bit over a minute into the match and escaped. It was a long wait to the next match.
    Also.... not sure how you can get 8/8 so much when escapes like this are not only possible, but happen often enough for people to ask for parts to spawn further away from objectives.

Tested it in a private match, it came off in one hit with a heavy attack. Even if it didn't it would for sure come off the hit after Tommy's initial shotgun shot if you're doing heavy attack with a machete. I never use the axe as Tommy, as it seems to take much longer to get the mask off with.

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4 hours ago, Gummybish said:

....

This is what I'm left with after reading some of these posts. 

tenor.gif

KzmvB8Y.gif

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On 3/12/2018 at 3:00 AM, Nougat said:

The issue of balancing seems to fly around without any reasonable resolution and usually leads to a lot of arguing moreso than debates. With that said, having hit 150 for the third time after this double XP weekend, I can say I have a decent amount of hours/experience in the game and I would like to put in my two cents without really favoring either side or being biased.

On one end, a lot of players here on the forums and many more who are not here on the forums play QP, and more often than not, Jason will be seen as stronger in an environement where the playerbase is typically less coordinated, though this isn't always the case as sometimes you can run into a good group of players on there. The recent Jason buff and counselor nerf have mostly put the ball back into Jason's court, and while Jason can still be kited by faster counselors, his recent speed boost has made the game a lot more overwhelming for repair counselors. Adding to that, someone good at kiting going up against someone equally has skilled in the Jason department will end in the kiter not lasting very long. By no means do I consider myself the best Jason, but I steamroll QP lobbies sometimes even before I get Stalk because of the amount of time and practice I put into refining my skill with Jason. So a Jason of my calibur or even better will annihilate QP lobbies and mke the game seem unplayable at times.

On the other end, there are Private Matches, where regardless of your skill as Jason, a group of 7 veteran counselors all with mics and good perks are going to attack objectives early and eat your traps like a bowl of cinnamon toast crunch. Jason simply can't be at two places at once, and while you may nab a few kills, you typically won't be cleaning a lobby against some of the best counselor players, period. This is especially true on small maps, where you will have to worry about two cars every single time, since a boat doesn't spawn in small maps. The thing is, counselors attack objectives so fast because the items for objectives may as well spawn right on the objective with how close to the objective they end up spawning anyways. Similar to a high level Jason ending QP lobbies like it's no one's business, high level counselor play in Private Matches are pretty skewed for counselors.

A middle ground I have been thinking about a lot lately is revamping the location of objective spawns and making them completely random so objectives aren't finished pretty much instantly against a group of high level counselors. On Jason's end, his speed being brought back to what it was or somewhere inbetween where it is now and where it was would make repair characters valued a bit more again, since the objective item spawn location revamp would be a nerf to QP counselors as well, Jason's speed being reduced should be pretty balanced.

Sure, there is the argument of Vanessas and Chads being buffed by a reduced speed Jason, but even the game tells you a direct approach is not always the best option. With the current pocket knife ratio, it's as simple as making sure doors are broken so if they window camp you, you mix up what side you shift on since they won't have the time to react to a fastly cancelled shift grab. Having good aim and being able to instant throw the throwing knives accurately on a consistent basis will also go a long way in killing kiters as if they were repair characters. Adding to that, quick reactions and quick input times on your block as Jason will render even Epic Swift Attacker to be useless unless the ping is bad. After you block, cancel your block with sprint+grab and you should be able to grab them before they can sprint away if you are fast enough. If they have a knife, that is one less knife.

Overall I think Jason players who aren't using all of his tools and who aren't mixing up their approaches and refining their skill with knives, shift grabs and learning to break all doors in cabins to be able to deal with window camping are just hurting themselves. 

This topic isn't about chain stunning and other group counselor shenanigans, as I have faith that will be dealt with in one of the upcoming patched since it is an issue that has been touched upon a lot now.

I went off on a bit of a tangent on how to use Jason because most people thinking he need buffs or doesn't need nerfs tend to play him in a pretty basic manner. 

Jason could also use a significant HP buff. Tommy knocks the mask off in 1 hit with a heavy attack. If you slash him, his counter attack will hit you before you can block. If you grab him, you get pocket knifed and then he will knock the mask off with the exploit that lets you hit Jason during the recovery frames of him dropping the knife and the player regaining control.

TL;DR: Reduce Jason's speed. Jason players who can't deal with that, git gud. Give Jason enough HP to not get one shotted by Tommy. Randomize objective item spawns so they aren't 5 inches away from objectives. Repair characters will be able to breathe and Jason won't have to worry about both car starting in 5 minutes. Pocket Knife, Med Spray and Weapon ratio are fine. The point is to escape, not fight for 20 minutes.

Taking out a coordinated group is quite easy, don’t chase fast characters, patrol objectives and use J2, might be your best option or J4 and slash be very aggressive. 

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10 hours ago, Nougat said:

Tested it in a private match, it came off in one hit with a heavy attack. Even if it didn't it would for sure come off the hit after Tommy's initial shotgun shot if you're doing heavy attack with a machete. I never use the axe as Tommy, as it seems to take much longer to get the mask off with.

   I agree the mask does come off too easy sometimes. I will try more often with a machete. Realistically though, an axe can do way more damage to pretty much anything than a machete can. I still chuckle watching Jason smash a door in with a machete (the hedge shears are funnier though). An axe would work so much better. I would not even attempt to smash down a solid door with a machete in real life. I would not recommend trying it at home either, they are pretty flimsy. A machete can and will snap under enough stress and the small pieces flying off it in random directions would be hard to avoid. Improper tool for any task can lead to.... complications. But, this is just a game.

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43 minutes ago, Reyezblood 03 said:

Taking out a coordinated group is quite easy, don’t chase fast characters, patrol objectives and use J2, might be your best option or J4 and slash be very aggressive. 

This is such a gross generalization.  Coordinated group are only easy to deal with if the players involved are ether not good or do not really understand how to take advantage of Jason.  Mobs comprised of skilled players are the absolute bane for Jason, especially if there is one Tommy and one Sweater Girl involved. :o

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I understand the challenge in Quickplay is not having good teammates. I feel people need to adapt or just keep losing. Jason should never be nerfed because people refuse to work together.   You can see many threads about private games, that Jason is still owned so easily by various issues like stunning, or characters that can kite him forever.  Heck, even a random quickplay with 3 or 4 very good players, Jason is screwed still.

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41 minutes ago, carnage4u said:

I understand the challenge in Quickplay is not having good teammates. I feel people need to adapt or just keep losing. Jason should never be nerfed because people refuse to work together.   You can see many threads about private games, that Jason is still owned so easily by various issues like stunning, or characters that can kite him forever.  Heck, even a random quickplay with 3 or 4 very good players, Jason is screwed still.

 

We all "feel that way". but wake me up when it actually happens.  How many months in?  Little to NO "adapting" going on at all in QP.  Just people with no mics running around and most not going for objectives.  

 

I hardly see any Random QP lobbies with as many as 3-4 good players communicating going for everything and surviving.  I generally see 1-2  trying to hit objectives, everyone else standing around.   If you can find 3-4 good players communicating on a random QP lobby more than once every blue moon and provide proof I'll send you. money order ROLFMAO 

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