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Chetork

Making stealth and hiding places a more viable strategy.

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When I play Deborah Kim (which I do a lot) I like to sneak around and avoid being detected. I also use hiding spots to help avoid Jason's sense, but a lot of players myself included leave hiding spots if Jason does choose to enter your cabin.

Currently hiding spots are very underused as you have a better chance escaping Jason by kiting, running, or juking him in the open then by hiding in the cabin.

 

The problems with hiding spots include the hold breath mechanic which immediately gives away your position to Jason with the intake of breath. The next is your counselor panicking while Jason is nearby pretty much shouting for Jason to come check the bed in front of him.

 

My suggestion to help both the stealth stat and hiding spots would be for every point in the stealth stat you have a 5% chance to dodge Jason seeking and destroying you.

 

If Jason checks the bed which you're in as A.J. And you got lucky enough with your 50% chance you'd roll out of the bed just in time to avoid the axe coming through the bed.

 

If Jason checks a closet when you're Deborah you might get lucky with a 45% chance and step to the side of the closet as Jason shoves a spear in before shoving the doors open and jumping out.

 

I think this might help incentivize players into trying the hiding mechanic as well as giving the fixers (who have a pretty high average stealth) a buff ever since their stamina was nerfed and have had problems facing running Jason's.

 

If this seems too overpowered. It could also be made into a one time only effect where if you dodge Jason's seek and destroy you won't be able to again.

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Hiding spaces work really well in the first half of the game before Jason gets rage. I suggest not immediately locking cabin doors if Jason might pop up nearby (such as the phone house) that way you can slip under a bed and he won’t suspect you being there. I avoid closets though because they’re so loud when you enter them. 

As for the changes you mentioned, I wouldn’t be against them but I don’t think they’re really necessary. Also it would require a lot more animations to be made for the bed, tents, closets, etc. A repair character should be trying to complete as much objectives before Jason gets rage/be out of the map by the 10 min mark. After that they’re easier targets. 

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I think Stealth should effect the volume of the sound effect for getting into a hiding spot. 10 stealth creates no sound fx when getting into a hiding spot, 1 stealth would be the current volume, and everything else is in-between.

The thing about rolling out of a hiding spot would require a bunch of new animations. I think an easier solution would be to make Sense not have pinpoint accuracy until Rage. Have it detect a red cloud in the general area of a counselor. This cloud would be static and reflect the area the counselor was in at the time that Sense detected them. Also, remove Sense spamming by making the meter reset to zero after any use, even if you end it early. Once you get Rage or a counselor is at maximum fear(no minimap), then you'll see their outline.

Another thing to add on top of that is they could put Sense last, swapping it with Stalk. Either they could apply that all Jasons or it could be made Jason-specific. Part 8 is pretty beast, he has a +Stalk and -Sense. Imagine how he would play if he got Stalk second and Sense last. His +Stalk would be accentuated even moreso, while he'd have an even worse Sense by making it come later. Part 3 would of course retain his current order of abilities because he's the "beginner" Jason.

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2 hours ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

I think Stealth should effect the volume of the sound effect for getting into a hiding spot. 10 stealth creates no sound fx when getting into a hiding spot, 1 stealth would be the current volume, and everything else is in-between.

The thing about rolling out of a hiding spot would require a bunch of new animations. I think an easier solution would be to make Sense not have pinpoint accuracy until Rage. Have it detect a red cloud in the general area of a counselor. This cloud would be static and reflect the area the counselor was in at the time that Sense detected them. Also, remove Sense spamming by making the meter reset to zero after any use, even if you end it early. Once you get Rage or a counselor is at maximum fear(no minimap), then you'll see their outline.

Another thing to add on top of that is they could put Sense last, swapping it with Stalk. Either they could apply that all Jasons or it could be made Jason-specific. Part 8 is pretty beast, he has a +Stalk and -Sense. Imagine how he would play if he got Stalk second and Sense last. His +Stalk would be accentuated even moreso, while he'd have an even worse Sense by making it come later. Part 3 would of course retain his current order of abilities because he's the "beginner" Jason.

This would make stealth a lot more of a viable stat. 

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Yeah its strange why they never made Sense non toggle like the other abilities.

Still... for such a change. I'd almost want to make Sense more dynamic like Grip Strength. To make it more viable as a strength and more crippling as a weakness.

A lot of the Jason players still rely on Sense to Shift/Grab, so making it last could cause some rage. If they allowed Jason the order of loadout, I almost wonder how many would switch Sense for Stalk. Sure some would, but some would want it to go along with Shift.

+ Sense = Can Toggle, plus its current features of being longer, etc

Neutral = Can't Toggle, plus the default features

- Sense = Can't Toggle, plus longer cooldown

I agree with the larger point though.

Stealth needs to be more viable as as stat. This game needs to STOP being all about speed, stamina, repair and luck. Same goes for composure, strength, etc.

Strength seems like an easy one to fix by tying into HP but that would NOT fly whatsoever.

 

 

 

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Currently hiding spots are only good for when there's more than one person in the building and Jason doesn't know that yet. He'll assume the Vanessa that climbed out the window was the only one. You can fix hiding spots by making counselors get out from under them much faster and not make so much noise when entering them. Even with beds you can generally pinpoint the exact bed they climbed under even when you are outside the cabin when they hop under. With cabinets you may as well be able to hear them from the other side of the map.

As for sense, they either need to remove sense spam or make it so that when you dodge sense you can't be sensed again for a time. This is my preferred solution. Add a base chance to dodge sense (bolstered by perks) and stealth suddenly becomes viable.

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7 hours ago, tyrant666 said:

Yeah its strange why they never made Sense non toggle like the other abilities.

Still... for such a change. I'd almost want to make Sense more dynamic like Grip Strength. To make it more viable as a strength and more crippling as a weakness.

A lot of the Jason players still rely on Sense to Shift/Grab, so making it last could cause some rage. If they allowed Jason the order of loadout, I almost wonder how many would switch Sense for Stalk. Sure some would, but some would want it to go along with Shift.

+ Sense = Can Toggle, plus its current features of being longer, etc

Neutral = Can't Toggle, plus the default features

- Sense = Can't Toggle, plus longer cooldown

I agree with the larger point though.

Stealth needs to be more viable as as stat. This game needs to STOP being all about speed, stamina, repair and luck. Same goes for composure, strength, etc.

Strength seems like an easy one to fix by tying into HP but that would NOT fly whatsoever.

 

 

 

Why would strength tie into HP? That would just make all of the female counselors besides Fox extremely weak? If they BUFFED luck and made Jenny and Chad take more damage then they already do it would make luck a lot better. Can they still eat a bear trap once without getting injured? Because luck has barely any barring on matches especially if you have thick skinned which makes everybody basically have a 10/10 luck. 4 traps to die, 5 knives/weapon strengthswings to die, and 8 non weapon strength swings to die. Luck should make you take more without dying, not strength. Jenny is luckier then AJ so she shouldn’t die by swinging as fast as AJ. Strength should tie into stamina consumption while carrying a car/boat part and how long Jason is stunned for.

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10 hours ago, MichaelMemers said:

Currently hiding spots are only good for when there's more than one person in the building and Jason doesn't know that yet. He'll assume the Vanessa that climbed out the window was the only one. You can fix hiding spots by making counselors get out from under them much faster and not make so much noise when entering them. Even with beds you can generally pinpoint the exact bed they climbed under even when you are outside the cabin when they hop under. With cabinets you may as well be able to hear them from the other side of the map.

As for sense, they either need to remove sense spam or make it so that when you dodge sense you can't be sensed again for a time. This is my preferred solution. Add a base chance to dodge sense (bolstered by perks) and stealth suddenly becomes viable.

But they cant do that, cause then all the Jason white knights would come rolling out saying Jason is underpowered and not "scary" [/s]

There already is a perk to get into hiding spots faster. I say leave it as is and if someone wants to utilize hiding spots, he can do it with said perks, thats what they are for, and not to make changes so they can use other perks and still get what they want, thats not the intention.

If you want to hide and be stealthy go ahead, use sense avoidance perks and the one to get into hiding spots faster but sacrifice other perks for that. thats my opinion.

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7 hours ago, JennyMyers1984 said:

Why would strength tie into HP? That would just make all of the female counselors besides Fox extremely weak? If they BUFFED luck and made Jenny and Chad take more damage then they already do it would make luck a lot better. Can they still eat a bear trap once without getting injured? Because luck has barely any barring on matches especially if you have thick skinned which makes everybody basically have a 10/10 luck. 4 traps to die, 5 knives/weapon strengthswings to die, and 8 non weapon strength swings to die. Luck should make you take more without dying, not strength. Jenny is luckier then AJ so she shouldn’t die by swinging as fast as AJ. Strength should tie into stamina consumption while carrying a car/boat part and how long Jason is stunned for.

Throwing around ideas really.

Kinda like with Grip Strength. I would go even further into making it more of a strength/weakness for Jasons.

Not only would it carry a damage modifier. It would be this...

+ Grip Strength = 4-6 grabs from Jason will cause a limp state for counselor regardless of pocket knives or not, damage increases if you don't escape quick, however the grab itself won't kill you

Neutral Grip Strength = 8 grabs from Jason will cause a limp state for counselor

- Grip Strength = Grabs don't damage the counselor, they are weaker by default and negative grip strength Jasons have to perform a quick QTE at the same time the counselor is trying to escape in order to execute a grab kill and if Jason fails the QTE or the counselor breaks free, the counselor escapes, so now the counselors have more chances against - Grip Strength Jasons.

Imagine how much more difficult it would be for Savini and Part 8 with Grip Strength as a weakness now? By the same token, Part 3 would probably become even more deadly with Weapon Strength, Grip Strength and no Shift Weakness. He would still have the new non toggle, longer cooldown Sense as a weakness though. Part 7 would feel a bit better being he still has toggable Sense and the new Grip Strength, but still overly slow.

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1 hour ago, tyrant666 said:

Throwing around ideas really.

Kinda like with Grip Strength. I would go even further into making it more of a strength/weakness for Jasons.

Not only would it carry a damage modifier. It would be this...

+ Grip Strength = 4-6 grabs from Jason will cause a limp state for counselor regardless of pocket knives or not, damage increases if you don't escape quick, however the grab itself won't kill you

Neutral Grip Strength = 8 grabs from Jason will cause a limp state for counselor

- Grip Strength = Grabs don't damage the counselor, they are weaker by default and negative grip strength Jasons have to perform a quick QTE at the same time the counselor is trying to escape in order to execute a grab kill and if Jason fails the QTE or the counselor breaks free, the counselor escapes, so now the counselors have more chances against - Grip Strength Jasons.

Imagine how much more difficult it would be for Savini and Part 8 with Grip Strength as a weakness now? By the same token, Part 3 would probably become even more deadly with Weapon Strength, Grip Strength and no Shift Weakness. He would still have the new non toggle, longer cooldown Sense as a weakness though. Part 7 would feel a bit better being he still has toggable Sense and the new Grip Strength, but still overly slow.

I do like the idea of Grip Strength...with a +Grip Strength you can walk around with Jarvis/Jenny they still break free super fast. I just wish that a grab from Jason doesn’t mean immediate death. Yeah Jason is supposed to be OP blah blah blah. I do believe that a QTE for a weak Grip Strength Jason would be great especially for a weak composure counselor like Chad/Tiffany. Not sure about a limping counselor simply because they hold their arm while injured and Jason is just choking them, kinda unrealistic. I wish a counselor would limp and hold their leg or possibly even their head rather then ONLY their arm. Damage modifer could possibly work and make Grip Strength a better stat.

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@tyrant666 I'm on board with grabs causing damage, but a grab should never kill a counselor. If they have 10% health left and the grab would inflict 10% or more damage, they'd be left with 1 HP if they managed to break free. Based on your idea, Normal Grip would do about 5-6 points of damage and +Grip would do 10-12 points of damage(considering counselors to have 100hp).

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4 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

@tyrant666 I'm on board with grabs causing damage, but a grab should never kill a counselor. If they have 10% health left and the grab would inflict 10% or more damage, they'd be left with 1 HP if they managed to break free. Based on your idea, Normal Grip would do about 5-6 points of damage and +Grip would do 10-12 points of damage(considering counselors to have 100hp).

Oh the grab itself would never kill a counselor. Just damage them and even more if they don't escape via help or mashing the button or pocket knife. It wouldn't be a scenario where they would die from the grab itself.

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Just now, tyrant666 said:

Oh the grab itself would never kill a counselor. Just damage them and even more if they don't escape via help or mashing the button or pocket knife. It wouldn't be a scenario where they would die from the grab itself.

I think damage should only apply after breaking free because it's not gonna matter if they get damaged and then get killed, plus it might cause a bug where someone dies in his grip. I'm thinking it should probably do no damage if a pocket knife is used, or reduced damage.

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I actually thought you were talking about Jason with the headline. Remember manhunt? Would be nice if you could blend in with certain shadowed areas and swoop out to grab a passing counselor, batman style. Imagine how creepy it would be If you were a counselor and every time you ran through dark spots there was the chance Jason could be lurking. Would do a lot for the atmosphere of the game and really make use of the stalk power I'd you had to use it to blend in with the shadows.

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On 2/25/2018 at 11:02 AM, Chetork said:

When I play Deborah Kim (which I do a lot) I like to sneak around and avoid being detected. I also use hiding spots to help avoid Jason's sense, but a lot of players myself included leave hiding spots if Jason does choose to enter your cabin.

Currently hiding spots are very underused as you have a better chance escaping Jason by kiting, running, or juking him in the open then by hiding in the cabin.

 

The problems with hiding spots include the hold breath mechanic which immediately gives away your position to Jason with the intake of breath. The next is your counselor panicking while Jason is nearby pretty much shouting for Jason to come check the bed in front of him.

 

My suggestion to help both the stealth stat and hiding spots would be for every point in the stealth stat you have a 5% chance to dodge Jason seeking and destroying you.

 

If Jason checks the bed which you're in as A.J. And you got lucky enough with your 50% chance you'd roll out of the bed just in time to avoid the axe coming through the bed.

 

If Jason checks a closet when you're Deborah you might get lucky with a 45% chance and step to the side of the closet as Jason shoves a spear in before shoving the doors open and jumping out.

 

I think this might help incentivize players into trying the hiding mechanic as well as giving the fixers (who have a pretty high average stealth) a buff ever since their stamina was nerfed and have had problems facing running Jason's.

 

If this seems too overpowered. It could also be made into a one time only effect where if you dodge Jason's seek and destroy you won't be able to again.

Great idea!! The stealth and strength stat need big overhauls in order to be in line with other stats. 10/10 should be able to run without making any noise. 7+ should be able to get the safe effects Deborah has currently. Reduce noise made verbally. To make the stat even more viable during rage, Jason no longer hears anyone above 9+, meaning they can still hide in rooms without giving their locations away. Too balance this out, rage Jason can still hear anyone with 6 and below with white blimps and voice. 

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28 minutes ago, TiffanyIsBae said:

Great idea!! The stealth and strength stat need big overhauls in order to be in line with other stats. 10/10 should be able to run without making any noise. 7+ should be able to get the safe effects Deborah has currently. Reduce noise made verbally. To make the stat even more viable during rage, Jason no longer hears anyone above 9+, meaning they can still hide in rooms without giving their locations away. Too balance this out, rage Jason can still hear anyone with 6 and below with white blimps and voice. 

Tiffany and AJ shouldn’t make ANY kind of noise, no white blips at all. I don’t think Tommy makes any noise either because I rarely if ever see his white blips. The higher your stealth stat is should also grant a 5% increase the sense reduction. So Vanessa would only have a 5% chance of sense avoidance while Tiffany and AJ have a 50% chance of avoiding sense. Jason shouldn’t be relying on sense spamming to find counselors. I’ve already said that if you have NO visible fear then you should not light up like a Christmas tree. If you start to look over your shoulder in stage 2 of fear then Jason should get a little red cloud of smoke to indicate you are in the area, once you start to panic the cloud gets bugger and bigger until you go into full fear and you light up red. This would also tie into composure. Some people may say this would make stealth OP, but it is USELESS and you should be relying on stealth for Tiffany/AJ, it is Jason’s JOB to instill fear into counselors not to sense spam and shift grab and having an easy cakewalk. Jason should be OP but not have an easy job in killing everybody simply because sense spamming exists and stealth and composure don’t mean much. Which means everybody uses fast counselors and Jason is going to get frustrated anyways by a Level 150 Vanessa with running/bat perks.

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35 minutes ago, JennyMyers1984 said:

Tiffany and AJ shouldn’t make ANY kind of noise, no white blips at all. I don’t think Tommy makes any noise either because I rarely if ever see his white blips. The higher your stealth stat is should also grant a 5% increase the sense reduction. So Vanessa would only have a 5% chance of sense avoidance while Tiffany and AJ have a 50% chance of avoiding sense. Jason shouldn’t be relying on sense spamming to find counselors. I’ve already said that if you have NO visible fear then you should not light up like a Christmas tree. If you start to look over your shoulder in stage 2 of fear then Jason should get a little red cloud of smoke to indicate you are in the area, once you start to panic the cloud gets bugger and bigger until you go into full fear and you light up red. This would also tie into composure. Some people may say this would make stealth OP, but it is USELESS and you should be relying on stealth for Tiffany/AJ, it is Jason’s JOB to instill fear into counselors not to sense spam and shift grab and having an easy cakewalk. Jason should be OP but not have an easy job in killing everybody simply because sense spamming exists and stealth and composure don’t mean much. Which means everybody uses fast counselors and Jason is going to get frustrated anyways by a Level 150 Vanessa with running/bat perks.

I agree, but adding any certain sense avoidance on anyone is “OP on counselors! Jason needs to be like he was in the movies!!” 

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Hiding spots are already overused as is. Stealth is designed to only keep you alive for the first 3-10 minutes of the game. Wanting to hide for 20 minutes is ridiculous and drags out matches. 

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@tyrant666

I think taking away the ability for Jason to toggle Sense would be a major misstep. I think sometimes folks forget he has to track down 7 players. As well, just because he sees you doesn't mean you're dead.

I would encourage you to try some matches where you don't toggle Sense and post the results. I'm curious.

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I think it'd be interesting if the sneaky perk also removed the noise from entering/exiting windows and hiding spots in addition to what it already does. 

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I always thought the hiding spots should be a mini game similar to repairing, only based on your stealth and composure stats. So, the mini-game would be a lot easier for Jenny than it would be for Chad. Failing the mini-game would get increasingly harder, and failing it is when your character draws a breathe or says something.

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1 minute ago, Trial__By__Scythe said:

I always thought the hiding spots should be a mini game similar to repairing, only based on your stealth and composure stats. So, the mini-game would be a lot easier for Jenny than it would be for Chad. Failing the mini-game would get increasingly harder, and failing it is when your character draws a breathe or says something.

If it's only when holding your breath, this is really a good idea. That function is totally useless as it is, and will more than likely just get you killed.

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its very stupid that when you hide your character screams and breath very strong that should be removed

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Yes, I rarely use hiding spots for how little time you have in there before you give away your position by breathing. The mini game leaves how long you can go undetected in your own hands with the mini-game, which can be easy or difficult, depending on your characters stealth and composure stats.

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11 minutes ago, Trial__By__Scythe said:

I always thought the hiding spots should be a mini game similar to repairing, only based on your stealth and composure stats. So, the mini-game would be a lot easier for Jenny than it would be for Chad. Failing the mini-game would get increasingly harder, and failing it is when your character draws a breathe or says something.

That’d be a good idea having it based on composure for mini game. Based on how much fear the counselor has is how big or small the bar is. Even if Jenny is scared...her bar would be  significantly larger then Chad’s would be if he was scared. 

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