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7 minutes ago, Veevleigh said:

Then how do you explain atheists like myself?

 

and why do i gotta explain you? ur the one actin like you know somethin unknowable ;]

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3 minutes ago, jistsomeguy said:

and why do i gotta explain you? ur the one actin like you know somethin unknowable ;]

I don't know anything. Pretty much period.

I'm just curious because your point of view seems to state that people only do good things because of religion. And that means, as a non-religious person, from your point of view I must not be capable of doing good things, right?

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1 minute ago, jistsomeguy said:

nono im sayin dont take away any reason anybody uses to be good.

Ah, okay. That makes more sense. Sorry, I misunderstood you.

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patton oswaldt put it nice, "cavemen wouldent stop having rape and murder long enough to get anything done until religion".  that said, theres still mysterious shit we dont understand... magnets...amirite? oh and the measurement problem in quantum mechanics, how is that not like the power prayer er somethin?  XD

 

 

 

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To play devil's advocate to the idea of needing god or rules for society to thrive, what about the evolutionary theory that the reason we have morality is because ape's developed it in early evolutionary stages for the betterment of their tribe? Could this have came about without an intelligent designer?

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7 hours ago, deathbat96777 said:

To play devil's advocate to the idea of needing god or rules for society to thrive, what about the evolutionary theory that the reason we have morality is because ape's developed it in early evolutionary stages for the betterment of their tribe? Could this have came about without an intelligent designer?

I will say most if not all sentient animals are born with an affection to their kind as cooperation even in species which stay apart from each other is key to their species survival. This comradeship would naturally develop stronger in pack or group animals such as apes. My view is everything in existence must have come from something even the big bang theory, something must have started it. My question is did an intelligent designer create animals like apes and then mould them with evolution to be humans, or did they just start the experiment and let natural laws and selection do the rest to mould the evolution of species? 

Basically my answer to your question is no. Something must have started everything, and I would like to think there was a purpose behind it all! I may question the degree of influence and control an intelligent designer would have on the process of evolution, but something must have at least been the catalyst to start the process off.

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1 hour ago, a kamikaze man said:

I will say most if not all sentient animals are born with an affection to their kind as cooperation even in species which stay apart from each other is key to their species survival. This comradeship would naturally develop stronger in pack or group animals such as apes. My view is everything in existence must have come from something even the big bang theory, something must have started it. My question is did an intelligent designer create animals like apes and then mould them with evolution to be humans, or did they just start the experiment and let natural laws and selection do the rest to mould the evolution of species? 

Basically my answer to your question is no. Something must have started everything, and I would like to think there was a purpose behind it all! I may question the degree of influence and control an intelligent designer would have on the process of evolution, but something must have at least been the catalyst to start the process off.

To be frank, intelligent design would argue against evolution, or more specifically macro evolution (which is what most people think of when the term "evolution" pops up). Theistic evolution is nothing more than someone who believes in God (or a God-like deity, or something of higher spiritual authority) not wanting to piss off scientists who believe in evolution.

Intelligent design, combined with the "irreducible complexity" theory, have been key points of young earth creationism.

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I believe that morality is a natural by-product of evolution. Creatures who work together and respect others are more likely to survive. It's why we don't see animals fighting among themselves a lot. It's unusual to see two animals of the same species trying to kill each other. We are quite literally stronger together. Evolution supports morality as much as religion does.

I have a question that I've always wanted to ask people who are very dedicated to one religion, and I hope I can ask it without it sounding offensive. Given that there are about 200 religions in the world (at a REALLY rough approximation), for the people who are dedicated to a single religion, how do you feel about the other religions? As you must believe they're not true, is it not a state of saying 'well, 199 religions are just made up fairy tales, but MINE is real?'. As somebody who's total lack of belief comes from an inability to justify belief, I'm not capable of 'having faith' because my brain relies on logic, and part of that is that it tells me if I accept 199 religions are fictional, why would I then choose one that I believe is total fact?

That's something I really struggle with when I think about it. It's a difficult question to phrase because I don't want to offend anybody; I am totally respectful of people's beliefs and religions even if I don't share them, but it's something I've always been curious about.

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4 hours ago, Slasher_Clone said:

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

If you want to post in this thread then post something that actually contributes to the conversation. Flame bait isn't appropriate.

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5 hours ago, Veevleigh said:

I believe that morality is a natural by-product of evolution. Creatures who work together and respect others are more likely to survive. It's why we don't see animals fighting among themselves a lot. It's unusual to see two animals of the same species trying to kill each other. We are quite literally stronger together. Evolution supports morality as much as religion does.

Animals don't attack each other often? Seriously, have you never heard of a carnivore?

In fact, although rare, there have been some animal groups who even commit behavior that is very similar, if not outright the same, to warfare. Chimpanzees, insects, gorillas, wolves, hyenas, basically any social animal group. In the case of chimpanzees they even used weapons, and further studies showed that human interaction has zero impact on this behavior.

5 hours ago, Veevleigh said:

I have a question that I've always wanted to ask people who are very dedicated to one religion, and I hope I can ask it without it sounding offensive. Given that there are about 200 religions in the world (at a REALLY rough approximation), for the people who are dedicated to a single religion, how do you feel about the other religions? As you must believe they're not true, is it not a state of saying 'well, 199 religions are just made up fairy tales, but MINE is real?'. As somebody who's total lack of belief comes from an inability to justify belief, I'm not capable of 'having faith' because my brain relies on logic, and part of that is that it tells me if I accept 199 religions are fictional, why would I then choose one that I believe is total fact?

That's something I really struggle with when I think about it. It's a difficult question to phrase because I don't want to offend anybody; I am totally respectful of people's beliefs and religions even if I don't share them, but it's something I've always been curious about.


Here's the problem atheists run into when it comes to morality: they only have themselves for setting a moral standard since they don't believe in a higher spiritual authority. Now, don't get me wrong, an atheist can ethically act/think "good" in the sense of caring about others for welfare, but deep down they have no reason to do so because they answer to no ultimate authority. Society alone can't force you to act the way you want. In other words, an atheist acts "good" for certain reasons like not going to jail, trying to look good in the eyes of others, etc., you get the idea.

A Christian, on the other hand, loves yet fears God. True Christians acts morally good for two main reasons: the reward of going to Heaven, and because we just want to naturally. The former, while not the only reason why we should believe in God, is obviously a carrot rather than the stick. The latter is more difficult to explain.

Let me give a hypothetical example. One day, an evil warlord takes over the entire world, and encourages things like rape; worshipping him alone; murder (otherwise known as unjustifably killing someone), and many other atrocities in the eyes of society. A true Christian would rebel against this warlord, and refuse to obey him because we follow the path as well as example that Jesus set for us. Morally it's simple for us to rebel against an evil warlord because we act according to the knowledge of the moral law given by God in his Holy Word (the Bible). The result would likely be an agonizing death, or torture, or even worse, but for us refusing to obey this warlord means we're well on our way to the stairway of Heaven. In conclusion, we don't believe in God simply because of the reward of Heaven, we believe in God as well as follow the moral laws He set for us because we want to worship God as well as follow His ways He set for us. Going to Heaven is just a very nice eternal reward, which makes it a bit more tantalizing for people who don't automatically want to believe in God at first.

But an atheist...that's a trickier situation. You answer to yourself, and that might mean obeying the warlord for the least painful outcome (at least physically). In the eyes of the warlord, commiting rape is "good," and if you don't follow that example then you die a miserable, painful, awful, and slow death. But would you be willing to commit rape, even if that was the logical solution to survive as well as have a better time on Earth?

If you felt even a spark of resistance to the idea of rape, then gradulations: you now know what a conscience is, and you're deciding whether to ignore it or not given the extreme situation. So in other words, there's something more to your behavior that is telling you "rape is awful, I shouldn't do it even if not raping someone means I'm going to be tortured to death." Something that can't be explained by logic, just something that is felt. Even those who decide to rape likely knows it acts against their conscience, but even ethically good human beings are fully capable of ignoring their conscience to begin with.

As for how I handle other religions, I go by the following:

  1. Do you seek forgiveness for your sins?
  2. Do you believe in God?
  3. Do you believe in Jesus (who technically is God as part of the Trinity), who God sent to us for the good of mankind, and try to follow in his ways?

That's very roughly how I approach other religions in that regard. Ultimately, I believe the God of my religion (Christianity) is thee God, and everyone's else "God" is a fake. But I'm going to assume that's how the majority of religions outside of my own think as well.

 

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Animals (especially carnivores) fight and kill each other all the time, but as far as I know, it's fairly unusual to see animals kill other animals of the same species as them. Some animals do it, and they do sometimes fight, but it's rarer. A lot of them seem to have pack mentalities to survive without any need for religion.

Here's the problem with your example regarding atheism and doing good; you're stating that people only do good because of an eternal reward, essentially. I mean, you state:

A Christian, on the other hand, loves yet fears God. True Christians acts morally good for two main reasons: the reward of going to Heaven, and because we just want to naturally. The former, while not the only reason why we should believe in God, is obviously a carrot rather than the stick. The latter is more difficult to explain.

Well, the second one is true of atheists as well. It's a completely moot point on whether or not you're religious. I want to do good too naturally. Not being religious doesn't mean I don't want to do good. It has nothing to do with religion. Which means, the only difference between me and you is that you are offered, as you put it, a 'carrot on a stick'. I want to do what I believe is right because it's the right thing to do. It's the same as you, except I don't have it written down in a book for me to follow. I have what I believe is right, on my own. I don't get any external guidance, I don't get any reward, I just have my morals and my knowledge of right and wrong. I have my conscience. And it's informed, yes, by the world around me. But by a world that has given me just as much bad and negative as good and right, and I've still learned what's right and do what is good.

Which means, the only different between us, in other words, is that you're not doing good because it's the right thing to do. You're doing good because you get a reward for doing it. Help that person, and you go to Heaven. For me, I help a person, I do it because I believe in my heart it's the right thing to do. I don't think I'm going to get anything out of it. I don't think I'm going to be rewarded. I do it, because I believe in the power of 'good' over any religious force, I believe people CAN be good if they let themselves, and I always try to live my life as an example of that. And moreover, is God the kind of person to reward people for doing good JUST because they did it to get a reward?

To use your own example, what if the opposite happened? If God descended from the Heavens himself, and told you, "Hey, actually, rape and murder is okay, go have at it". Would you do it? I wouldn't. Even if God stood directly in front of me and told me 'this is okay, and I will give you an eternal reward if you do it', I would never do it, because I have my morals that are MINE, nobody else's. I don't allow an external force to influence them. I'm NOT capable of ignoring my conscience. It's a powerful force in my life, but it comes only from me.

So let me ask you this. You mention your three questions. So do you truly believe that, let's say I'm wrong and you're right, I die and end up facing the judgement of God. If I've lived my life to always be a good person, I've helped those in need, raised thousands for charity, sat with dying children, given my life to working in a hospital, sacrificed time, money and effort time and time again to help others, but never believed in God or Jesus, I should go to Hell? If I've always been a good person but never been a religious one, do I deserve eternal punishment for that?

And if so, what kind of God is that to follow? One who rewards not goodness, but worship?

My other question about believing all other gods are fake and yours is real is about history. Do you not find it odd that you can look at history and see how religion has evolved, how society has changed and chosen certain parts of certain books, but still believe that your current edition of the Bible is THE holy word and everything else is false? The reason I struggle with that is that it acknowledges that human beings invent things, they've made up various stories to explain away the world, except in the case of this ONE story that you follow, and that is the true word. How can you be so certain that your version of the word is real when you openly acknowledge all the others aren't?

From my atheist point of view, once I accept that one story may be false, I have to accept all of them are false, because I see no evidence otherwise. If that makes any sense.

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As a Scientologist I believe in a soul. I reject the Wundertian (modern) psychology claim that "man is simply an animal nothing more", I very much do believe in a soul (which in Scientology we refer to the soul as the thetan) after all we're all made of the same stuff but everyone is an entirely different person with their own thoughts, feelings, ideas, dreams, talents, imagination etc. Psychology means "the study of the soul" but they study the soul while also rejecting the existence of a soul? :unsure: How can you reject the soul when it's so obvious it exists?

I do not dispute that our bodies are animals but I believe the thetan is separate from the body and when the body dies we find a new one. So I believe in re-incarnation, most people forget their past lives with some remnants of it remaining like I have memories of things that have never happened to me. An experiment was done years ago where a Scientist weighed a dying patient directly before and right after his death. It was found he weighed 21 grams less, could this have been the weight of the thetan that has left the body??

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2 hours ago, Veevleigh said:

Animals (especially carnivores) fight and kill each other all the time, but as far as I know, it's fairly unusual to see animals kill other animals of the same species as them. Some animals do it, and they do sometimes fight, but it's rarer. A lot of them seem to have pack mentalities to survive without any need for religion.

Ok, seriously, enough talk about animals. Evolution of all kinds did not make animals not want to attack/murder each other. If that were the case, chimpanzees/gorillas wouldn't have tribal warfare as well as gang mentalities, and mother bears wouldn't eat their own cubs if they couldn't find food. It's simply different for all animals, but it is by no means "unusual."

If anything, macro evolution would be the exact reason why animals are violent if it indeed happened. Survival of the fittest is one of their mottos for a reason.

2 hours ago, Veevleigh said:

Sell, the second one is true of atheists as well. It's a completely moot point on whether or not you're religious. I want to do good too naturally. Not being religious doesn't mean I don't want to do good. It has nothing to do with religion. Which means, the only difference between me and you is that you are offered, as you put it, a 'carrot on a stick'. I want to do what I believe is right because it's the right thing to do. It's the same as you, except I don't have it written down in a book for me to follow. I have what I believe is right, on my own. I don't get any external guidance, I don't get any reward, I just have my morals and my knowledge of right and wrong. I have my conscience. And it's informed, yes, by the world around me. But by a world that has given me just as much bad and negative as good and right, and I've still learned what's right and do what is good.

Which means, the only different between us, in other words, is that you're not doing good because it's the right thing to do. You're doing good because you get a reward for doing it. Help that person, and you go to Heaven. For me, I help a person, I do it because I believe in my heart it's the right thing to do. I don't think I'm going to get anything out of it. I don't think I'm going to be rewarded. I do it, because I believe in the power of 'good' over any religious force, I believe people CAN be good if they let themselves, and I always try to live my life as an example of that. And moreover, is God the kind of person to reward people for doing good JUST because they did it to get a reward?

 

Dude, I even italicized the main reason in my post why Christians want to worship God, and you're still stuck on the idea that we're doing it solely because we want to go to Heaven. I also don't remember even once saying that only religious people do good. Atheists are certainly of doing good as well, it's just not for the same reasons as say someone like me who is Christian.

2 hours ago, Veevleigh said:

To use your own example, what if the opposite happened? If God descended from the Heavens himself, and told you, "Hey, actually, rape and murder is okay, go have at it". Would you do it? I wouldn't. Even if God stood directly in front of me and told me 'this is okay, and I will give you an eternal reward if you do it', I would never do it, because I have my morals that are MINE, nobody else's. I don't allow an external force to influence them. I'm NOT capable of ignoring my conscience. It's a powerful force in my life, but it comes only from me.

Pfft....You're NOT capable of ignoring your conscience? Is this a fact, or is this something you want to be fact? So not once in your entire life have you done something that was contrary to your conscience, like say taking a cookie from the jar when you weren't supposed to? It's not just the big things in life, you know.

However, I'm pleased to know that you do in fact care about your conscience, because the alternative would be pretty scary.

2 hours ago, Veevleigh said:

.So let me ask you this. You mention your three questions. So do you truly believe that, let's say I'm wrong and you're right, I die and end up facing the judgement of God. If I've lived my life to always be a good person, I've helped those in need, raised thousands for charity, sat with dying children, given my life to working in a hospital, sacrificed time, money and effort time and time again to help others, but never believed in God or Jesus, I should go to Hell? If I've always been a good person but never been a religious one, do I deserve eternal punishment for that?

And if so, what kind of God is that to follow? One who rewards not goodness, but worship?

It's actually brutally simple: being "good" isn't good enough to go Heaven. You had to be perfect to go to Heaven, which means not sinning in body, mind, thoughts, you get the idea. Everyone in their lives will commit some form of grievous sin, and it was for that reason we couldn't initially go to Heaven after the fall of mankind to sin. Henceforth where Jesus came into play.

If Chrisitianity is true, then God created us. He made a beautiful paradise that was trashed because Eve wanted more power as well as tricked Adam into doing the same. Then God gave us a new chance to go to Heaven through Jesus (which involved humans brutally torturing Jesus before murdering him), and all he asked for was faith in him as well as following in his ways/footsteps.

But mainly speaking, Heaven alone isn't the reason why true Christians worship God. Like I mentioned in the italicized in my previous post, there's more to it. Jesus set a standard for people to live that made it possible to leave in a society where everything isn't dog eat dog. Instead, we live as well as enjoy a higher standard in living knowing there's still hope for everyone. Heaven is just the carrot at the end of a life long journey of peace, satisfaction, harmony, you get the idea.

2 hours ago, Veevleigh said:

 

My other question about believing all other gods are fake and yours is real is about history. Do you not find it odd that you can look at history and see how religion has evolved, how society has changed and chosen certain parts of certain books, but still believe that your current edition of the Bible is THE holy word and everything else is false? The reason I struggle with that is that it acknowledges that human beings invent things, they've made up various stories to explain away the world, except in the case of this ONE story that you follow, and that is the true word. How can you be so certain that your version of the word is real when you openly acknowledge all the others aren't?

From my atheist point of view, once I accept that one story may be false, I have to accept all of them are false, because I see no evidence otherwise. If that makes any sense.

Simple, the Bible itself is a history book. Christian scientists, history professors, and the like have spent their lives proving the events in the Bible took place. Unfortunately that's not a strong suit of mine since there's a lot to go through in terms of history, but I've had zero problems using google to figure this part out.

In terms of Bible history authenticity, the Dead Sea Scrolls revealed our current Bibles are still accurate. And quite frankly, the idea some people come up with to discredit it like "at some point someone altered the Bible" isn't concrete. It's entirely possible the Bible has remained true as the word of God even up to this point. Furthermore, the Bible had to be translated into multiple languages, yet I'm pretty sure God would have zero issues with the "thee" and "thou" getting changed into "the." And Bible scholars constantly review the text to make sure nothing is out of place compared to past versions. It's actually a hobby of mine since I'm really interested in the aspects of justice as well as peace.

If you're interested, this website is one I use a lot when I have analytical questions involving the Bible. But for true Christians, it's very important that the Bible is not only the word of God, but also a book of history.

Finally, your view that "if one thing is false, then they're all false" is pretty weak. If I told you there's a jar with a red jelly bean that contained mostly yellows, and you didn't find the red jelly bean, that it truly doesn't exist? I could've just taped the red jelly bean underneath the cap, yet you didn't look hard enough because you expected to easily find it mixed with other jelly beans.

TL;DR Honestly Veevleigh, I'm really not interested in debates, and seems like anything I say isn't going to magically make you want to consider my ideas, so I'm just going to stop here with you. If you're interested, cool beans. If not...well, I tried.

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Well, thank you for the response. I don't mean to come across as not considering your ideas, as I said before, I find it very interesting to discuss because it's a world view I don't have, so it's nice to try and understand where other people are coming from and what they believe.

But as you don't wish to debate, I'll leave this as it is and just say thank you for at least trying to answer my queries.

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10 hours ago, Veevleigh said:

I believe that morality is a natural by-product of evolution. Creatures who work together and respect others are more likely to survive. It's why we don't see animals fighting among themselves a lot. It's unusual to see two animals of the same species trying to kill each other. We are quite literally stronger together. Evolution supports morality as much as religion does.

I have a question that I've always wanted to ask people who are very dedicated to one religion, and I hope I can ask it without it sounding offensive. Given that there are about 200 religions in the world (at a REALLY rough approximation), for the people who are dedicated to a single religion, how do you feel about the other religions? As you must believe they're not true, is it not a state of saying 'well, 199 religions are just made up fairy tales, but MINE is real?'. As somebody who's total lack of belief comes from an inability to justify belief, I'm not capable of 'having faith' because my brain relies on logic, and part of that is that it tells me if I accept 199 religions are fictional, why would I then choose one that I believe is total fact?

That's something I really struggle with when I think about it. It's a difficult question to phrase because I don't want to offend anybody; I am totally respectful of people's beliefs and religions even if I don't share them, but it's something I've always been curious about.

For me, I'm not against other religions in the sense that I don't like the ideas or concepts they have to offer. It's just that I don't see concrete proof that goes beyond blind faith. While I can't prove God exists and think to say I could would be extremely arrogant, I firmly believe I have had a personal encounter with the Christian God and also think there's a lot of archeological evidence to back up stories that happened in the Bible, such as finding wheels from the chariots in the Red Sea that when carbon dated matched the time frame in which the parting of the Red Sea occurred in Exodus. The Bible is also the most well documented and recent in terms of discovered manuscripts and numbers of copies of any ancient manuscript. We have carbon dating on gospel accounts we've found preserved in papyrus that are as recent as 25 years within the death of Jesus, which makes it more reasonable that a supposed follower of his could've actually written them. I also think that there has to be a purpose behind everything. I don't think we are here by accident and I think the universe is so intricate and beautifully made that even if it could be the product of evolution, there would have to be some sort of "watchmaker" so to speak working behind the scenes to orchestrate it. I like to think that God is the just cause of everything. As far as why I believe it over other religions, there's several reasons, none of which I would consider hateful or judgmental. For starters, I have asked in prayer for other gods to reveal themselves if they exist and none of them ever have. I also don't see a lot of historical proof for certain religions, such as Islam, for instance. I have friends that are Muslims and love and respect them, but the story for their revelation from Mohammed in my opinion involves a lot of details that seem wishy washy, and they weren't prophesied in ancient texts written by several writers over the course of thousands of years like the idea of Jesus was. The only other religion I would ever consider practicing is Judaism. I think they have some pretty sound arguments about Jesus not being the messiah, because if you look throughout history, a lot of Jews had an idea of the messiah as prophesied in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc, being a political messiah that would come and restore order in Jerusalem. I could see where you could argue that and I could see where they would see Christ as a false prophet actually making sense given their history, but because of my own personal encounter with God and my thoughts on that being that He came not as a political messiah in order to create a paradigm shift to encourage spiritual morality and make people love each other more and think outside the box and not just about their own agendas keep me from siding with their political concept, but I do in fact see how it would make sense to them. I've also considered deism, agnosticism, theistic satanism, and LeVeyan satanism at certain points in my life, but this was all before I became a Christian.

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21 minutes ago, Slasher_Clone said:

@Trident77. So your down with slavery as the bible says it's moral?

 

Well, if you're interested, it's because people don't understand where the term "slavery" originated from. The Bible condoned what we now know as "indentured servitude." In other words, you give up some of your rights by working for someone in order to receive some form of payment. It did not condone most other forms such as forcing hard labor on someone who was kidnapped for instance.

In other words, our modern day version of the workforce is based on this form of "slavery." You work, sometimes doing things you don't like, to learn a trade of sorts that gets you paid as well as other forms of benefits.

The Bible was very clear however that "slaves" (which we know as workers in today's times) were to be treated fairly, and with dignity. Not doing so had dire consequences; look no further than what God did to Egypt with the ten plagues when they cruelly enslaved the Jewish population, despite the fact that it was a Jew who saved Egypt from a terrible famine that hurt several other countries.

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To add to my previous post in terms of other religions or viewpoints, I sometimes wrestle with the idea of open theism. Is God an all knowing, all encompassing God, or are there some things he just doesn't know? Take free will, for instance. If God transcends time, then clearly He has the ability to know if we'll choose Him or not if he pre-exists in the future. If it's up to us to decide, then how does he know? If it's our choice and not His, then that brings the argument of open theism into play. There's also a lot of philosophy out there that brings God's morality into question if He is willing to allow such cruel suffering but do nothing to stop it. If He is all powerful, can He be all good, and if He's all powerful, can He still be all knowing? Are there some things God can't do? I personally know in my heart that I believe some of these answers to clearly be "yes" and "no" seeing as I'm a Christian and not an open theist, but it is a doctrine I feel drawn by at times because it seems like more of a rational explanation for God, especially if  you look at more Calvinistic doctrine. For those of you that are Christians like myself, what do you think?

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39 minutes ago, Slasher_Clone said:

So you support the slavery in the bible?

Just to be clear there is no differents, this is still slavery. 

There's a lot of differences.

Consider that things like social security, government policies etc. didn't exist. If you worked picking grain for a owner, you were considered a slave back then. But in return, the owner gave you shelter, food, water, things you needed to survive. Things that weren't easy to get back then. The difference is that God expected the owner to treat the slaves with fairness, kindness, dignity, and the slave could technically choose not to work. They could just walk off, and that was allowed (unless they were slaves by force, like what the Egyptians did to Jews just because they were Jews, and no other reason, something that God disliked).

But if a slave didn't work, then they didn't get food; water; or shelter, and things would go pretty sour for them. That's really not all that different from how the workforce exists now, except that we get benefits as well as a higher standard of living compared to before. I mean, I'd much rather not make windows for 8-10 hours a day plus five days a week, but by doing something I don't like, I'm getting rewarded with money/benefits to sustain myself.

That's what the term slavery originally meant, but when the Muslims started invading into English terrorities, the word "slavery" took on a whole meaning. God in the Bible punished cruel slavers who treated their slaves poorly, same as how your government would punish a corrupt business owner who treated their workers poorly. The spirit of what slavery stood for, rewarding workers for their hard work, eventually became tarnished to what it is now.

But then again, you've done nothing but post flame bait until now, so it's crystal clear you have zero interest in what I'm actually saying. You just find this as an interesting way to discredit the Bible. Or you're just completely illiterate when it comes to history or can't comprehend words having different meanings in the past.

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At risk of sounding harsh Trident, I think you might be getting a bit too antsy with Slasher_Clone.  I agree with your opinion, but try not to get too dicey towards others. I think this is a great topic to have on here because it engages intellectual discussion and I think you might be jumping the gun with him a bit. As a Christian, you will encounter skeptics, and being brash towards their viewpoints has the potential to drive them away even further. I don't want my thread to get closed or deleted, I think it's a healthy forum and it helps us to know each other on a deeper level, so from now on, please try to be more civil.

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