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Sogreth

Sense spamming needs to change.

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On 2/13/2018 at 6:08 AM, HuDawg said:

Meh..  I really.. really disagree.  

If there's one thing that should be nerfed and changed about Jason its his Sense Ability.    Im not a BIG fan of Dead By Daylight.  But if theres one thing that game does right is the HIDE and SEEK play style.    In F13th you can't really hide at all without pinging on the Sense ability if your counselor had a Jason encounter.

Few ideas..

1.) It should be the LAST ability earned.    Swap sense with Stalk.   Including cool down time

2.)  Decrease how easily counselors show up on sense.  Counselor should be really terrified before showing on a Sense ping.  (Unless Rage is active)

I think without sense spamming Jason would need some kind of replacement.

And counsellors can manage their fear to avoid ahowing up on sense, even after a jason encounter or two. They can also run out of his music radius and hop in a hiding spot and have a decent chance of being avoided. Most jasons won't use sense spamming all in the same location anyways. They will hit sense once or twice in an area, move on and then hit it again.

Fear managment and perks play a crucial role in this. Its also one of the things that make characters like Jenny useful. I never used to manage my fear, but now I do and it pays off more often than not.

If sense is nerfed, those who have a really good idea of the game will be able to hide from Jason for ages at a time, and then Juke him for another five minutes before death. It will make it far too easy for players to survive the night.

Removing sense spam would also just get way more people crouching on the edges of the map in the middle of nowhere for fifteen minutes at a time. Thats what players did before sense spam was widespread knowledge, and it made for some really dull lobbies. Now players are encouraged to work on objectives or at least use hiding spots to hide.

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There is no reason to change sense. If anything, allow the ability for Jason to change his power loadout to add a larger variety of playstyles for Jason.

I don't think Stalk is nearly as important as Sense. Jason should be able to know where players are at, and whether they are entering or exiting cabins at a given time. You may see a sound ping, but you may not know if that's coming from within the house or outside of it.

I mostly use Stalk as a deterrent to trick people into thinking I'm shifting. I'll use it for stealth when trying to stop cars or when there's only a handful of counselors left in the match. It's absolutely a late game tool. 

But if people want Stalk first, then allow the loadout to be customized as such. Otherwise, no need to fix what isn't broken.

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21 minutes ago, ZillaMeister said:

There is no reason to change sense. If anything, allow the ability for Jason to change his power loadout to add a larger variety of playstyles for Jason.

I don't think Stalk is nearly as important as Sense. Jason should be able to know where players are at, and whether they are entering or exiting cabins at a given time. You may see a sound ping, but you may not know if that's coming from within the house or outside of it.

I mostly use Stalk as a deterrent to trick people into thinking I'm shifting. I'll use it for stealth when trying to stop cars or when there's only a handful of counselors left in the match. It's absolutely a late game tool. 

But if people want Stalk first, then allow the loadout to be customized as such. Otherwise, no need to fix what isn't broken.

What he said.

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1 hour ago, NoOneK9503 said:

Those were sense avoidance perks. Only these makes you invisible to Sense


  I asked the players what perks they were using, all of them told me anti-fear perks. Two of these players asked why I was asking, so I told them. They didn't know about this effect. I wish I could remember their names (its not like revealing their names would be shamming). Perhaps it was just a glitch? Max percent for epic fear avoidance in the great out doors is under 50% (not sure of exact number), making it a 1 in 2 chance to avoid sense. I must have hit sense twenty times while chasing Fox for four minutes so sense avoidance perks should have still made her undetectable only 10 times. Not once did she light up. The invisible Jennys I spoke of did not stay invisible fore nearly as long, but even hitting sense five times, they should still show up two or three times and if they were really lucky, they still should have lit up at least once.
  I forget where I read that sense focuses on fear or I would post the link. Perhaps they were all wrong, now I am not sure. Does anyone else have an answer to this?

   It appears @CPLhicks31 may have answered my question in the above post.

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3 hours ago, Ahab said:


  I asked the players what perks they were using, all of them told me anti-fear perks. Two of these players asked why I was asking, so I told them. They didn't know about this effect. I wish I could remember their names (its not like revealing their names would be shamming). Perhaps it was just a glitch? Max percent for epic fear avoidance in the great out doors is under 50% (not sure of exact number), making it a 1 in 2 chance to avoid sense. I must have hit sense twenty times while chasing Fox for four minutes so sense avoidance perks should have still made her undetectable only 10 times. Not once did she light up. The invisible Jennys I spoke of did not stay invisible fore nearly as long, but even hitting sense five times, they should still show up two or three times and if they were really lucky, they still should have lit up at least once.
  I forget where I read that sense focuses on fear or I would post the link. Perhaps they were all wrong, now I am not sure. Does anyone else have an answer to this?

   It appears @CPLhicks31 may have answered my question in the above post.

   At high fear, counsellors are more likely to light up like christmas trees. If a counsellor leaves Jasons sense radius (roughly his music), then Jason will have to "re-sense" them I believe.  I am not privy to the exact details, but a reliable poster named Alkavan has tested sense numerous times. Using hiding spots, and keeping fear low all make it less likely you will be "re-sensed" if you have left Jasons sense zone. Hiding spots in cabins are great because not only do they reduce your fear, but they make it less likely your cabin will be "re-sensed" if you managed to leave Jasons sense radius. If you are still in Jasons sense radius, and you are in a cabin but are not in a hiding spot, your cabin is virtually guaranteed to glow red.

   However, a fear resistant perk will not itself make you less likely to be sensed. It will keep your fear down, which will indirectly help, but when Jason uses sense, the perks that directly affect your odds of lighting up are sense avoidance perks like level headed, low profile, and home body, NOT fear avoidance perks. Fear avoidance and sense avoidance go hand in hand, but they are not the same thing. 

   Ideally, you would manage your fear so that you are still very composed, and you would have sense avoidance perks. If Jason finds you, then you would leave his sense radius, enter a hiding spot, and restart the cat and mouse game. That is your step by step best way to avoid sense, but it requires luck too, and for Jason to make an error or two in his ability management.

Again, Alkavan has the exact details, but my summary should be roughly accurate, and I main Jenny with an emphasis on fear management, although I don't often use fear avoidance or sense avoidance perks.

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15 minutes ago, Theiceman105 said:

I'd say make it like stalk - cancelling resets. But give it faster cooldown and more duration.

If they have to, this would be the only way to really change sense without screwing with the game too much, but I'd still rather it stay the way it is now.

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Just use anti-fear perks and be more stealthy when in cabins, and also use a counselor with high composure like Jenny.

We all know what happened the last time they nerfed Jason, it was bad times...

Imagine that That the counselors are the Jockeys that Lees Impersonating and Jason's the horse.

(I know. It's such a bad representation of what Jason was like, but at least it's funny?)

Right! Uhhh... Right?

*Slowly leaves*

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On 2/11/2018 at 6:09 PM, Sogreth said:

Solution. It's actually very simple, really. Change Sense so it CANNOT be spammed. Make Sense act like all of Jason's other abilities. You have to wait for the full Cooldown, even if you cancel it early. You don't see Jason being able to Shift more often because he stopped it early, and you don't see him using Stalk more by cancelling it early. So why should Sense be any different?

You're preaching to the choir, bud. I've been shouting this from the hills since day one.

Edit: This also would make the +Sense perk more meaningful for the Jasons that have it, since it increases range and reduces the cooldown.

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Most perks are garbage. Sense is fine as it is, though I am on the wagon that if it was swapped with stalk, that it could work that way. 

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3 hours ago, CPLhicks31 said:

 

Sense detection (odds he will see you light up) is not related to Fear at all. Basically, if you are in the expanding detection bubble you will be detected unless you are 1) in a hiding spot pre-Rage or 2) you are running avoidance perks. Fear is tied to the tracking effect that applies to a detected counselor - in a nutshell...Jason can see you (to track you) if you go beyond his base detection radius if he detected you (while you were in it) and didn't turn off Sense. How far he can view you beyond his base detection range is dependent on your current Fear level. If Jason activates Sense and you are beyond his current base detection range, you will not be detected regardless of any stat or Fear.

As to what the OP said.

1. It would be nice if Sense had to go through a full cooldown after activation.

2. I also think swapping Sense and Stalk would be a good idea to help make Stealth a bit more useful.

EDIT: I should note there is another reason you may not be detected. This is related to a bug in the game that allows counselors to pass through certain windows on certain maps and become immune to Sense detection while outside a structure for the remainder of the match.

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21 minutes ago, Alkavian said:

Sense detection (odds he will see you light up) is not related to Fear at all. Basically, if you are in the expanding detection bubble you will be detected unless you are 1) in a hiding spot pre-Rage or 2) you are running avoidance perks. Fear is tied to the tracking effect that applies to a detected counselor - in a nutshell...Jason can see you (to track you) if you go beyond his base detection radius if he detected you (while you were in it) and didn't turn off Sense. How far he can view you beyond his base detection range is dependent on your current Fear level. If Jason activates Sense and you are beyond his current base detection range, you will not be detected regardless of any stat or Fear.

As to what the OP said.

1. It would be nice if Sense had to go through a full cooldown after activation.

2. I also think swapping Sense and Stalk would be a good idea to help make Stealth a bit more useful.

I disagree with your second point, but that's purely a matter of opinion. I misspelled your username, but thanks for clarifying more accurately what I was trying to recall off the top of my head!

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1 minute ago, CPLhicks31 said:

I disagree with your second point, but that's purely a matter of opinion. I misspelled your username, but thanks for clarifying more accurately what I was trying to recall off the top of my head!

No problem man. :)

We all have our opinions.

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3 minutes ago, Alkavian said:

I also think swapping Sense and Stalk would be a good idea to help make Stealth a bit more useful.

This I am fully in agreement with, it makes the balance weird. Jason is a stalker he should have it early, and having sense early makes it very hard to be sneaky. 

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33 minutes ago, Slasher_Clone said:

This I am fully in agreement with, it makes the balance weird. Jason is a stalker he should have it early, and having sense early makes it very hard to be sneaky. 

While I see your point about stalk, I don't see how having sense early makes it any harder to be sneaky. That is purely up to the Jason. Stalk could maybe be a passive ability from the start, or gained at the same time as sense, but swapping them fully will encourage more people to just idle or hide, rather than work on objectives. Jasons typically will notice someone at an objective regardless of sense, but without sense he has no way of finding someone who is in a hiding spot or on the edge of the map barring an extremely lucky and risky teleport. In private matches, swapping them might work, but in QP it has the potential to affect counsellor playstyle too, and ruin matches. We're talking encouraging less teamwork and risk taking than their already is, just to try and perfect Jason. Many players play Jason like a bull when they don't need to, I'm with you (stalk is my favorite ability), but an outright swap will wreak more havoc than it will do good.

Alternatives include:

- making stalk passive

- making stalk usable at the same time as either sense or shift

- making Jasons loadout custom. Making Jasons loadout custom sounds really cool in theory as well, but I think it could also have negative impact on the game. All of those options would be better than outright swapping stalk with sense though.

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10 hours ago, Bropollocreed79 said:

On console (well, at least PS4) it does not.  If you activate Sense, you can leave it on for one second, and then deactivate it.  The cooldown is only as long as it takes the icon to refill from the point you drained it to.  Essentially, you could have one long Sense period followed by a long cooldown, or you can have it up when needed if you switch it off when you don't need it, reducing the cooldown accordingly.

Oh. I understand now. Yeah that’s how it is on Xbox. I thought he meant there was no cool down at all. 

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While I'm not against the idea of Sense not being spammable, I don't really buy the idea that switching Stalk with Sense for their unlock times would actually make things better for Jason.

For starters, against half-decent counselors Jason won't be able to kill them until he gains Shift at 2:15 into the game, which means that time is spent doing prep work. Things like setting traps, collecting knives, maybe smashing a window or two, you guys get the idea. Having Stalk early on wouldn't really do much during that time, and some Jasons prefer having Sense when they unlock Shift (Part 6 especially since Sense+ is good for hunting down counselors with high precision when throwing knives as well as using Shift+).

If anything, some aspects of Stalk should be permanent like Jason not making music while near a counselor unless they have high levels of fear, in which case both the counselor(s) as well as Jason would hear his Part's theme music as an indicator someone is going crazy.

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Just my 2 cents, but Sense should stay as it is.

Matches would turn into 20 minutes of hide and seek as it would be the new meta. Even with spamming, there is a chance that counselors will not show up. Jason players would chew up a lot of time waiting on the Morph and Sense cooldowns just attempting to locate counselors, let alone trying to catch them.

 

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On 2/11/2018 at 3:09 PM, Sogreth said:

Solution. It's actually very simple, really. Change Sense so it CANNOT be spammed.

Solution. It's actually very simple, really. Leave Sense alone and when Jason gets close to you, hit him with a bat. 

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10 hours ago, CPLhicks31 said:

While I see your point about stalk, I don't see how having sense early makes it any harder to be sneaky.

Sense undermines the only thing Stealth does (reduction of noise ping generation). Because of how Sense works, you literally can't just hide in a bush outside despite being hidden from Jason. He can can just turn on Sense and you'll light up if you're not running avoidance perks. Your Stealth is meaningless inside the base detection range. At least pushing Stalk forward and Sense back would give Stealth characters a chance to use their silence without being undermined by a mechanic that doesn't actually care about their Fear (for detection) as advertised.:unsure:

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On 11/02/2018 at 11:09 PM, Sogreth said:

Sense spamming is broken and cheesy. It's even more cheesy than Jason being able to arm block a bear trap. It needs to be changed, and here's why.

1) Sense Avoidance Perks. Sense spamming makes Sense avoidance perks near useless. Best case scenario, you have 65% Sense Avoidance with three perks, AND you must stay indoors to get that 65%, it drops to 45% while you are outside. That means a Counselor is using ALL THREE perk slots to slightly counter ONE of Jason's abilities. Three perks slots that just gives Jason a 1 in 3 chance to find you with Sense anyways.

2) Stealth. Sense spamming makes Stealth a very weak stat. It may even be THE WORST stat in the game. Some players still like, and use it. But it doesn't really change the fact that it's not a good stat. Jason players aren't looking for noise pings, they rely on Wallhack- I mean, Sense spamming to find Counselors. And if Sense isn't picking up any nearby Counselors, then Jason just moves closer to an objective and he is bound to find someone.

3) Not intended. I believe that Sense spamming was NOT intended for the game. Not only is it unhealthy, but just by looking at some of Jason's perks, you can clearly see that Sense wasn't meant to be spammed. +/- Sense Jasons are what I'm referring to. Having Sense as a Strength OR Weakness ONLY affects the Duration and the Cooldown. Spamming Sense bypasses both of these effects. Why need a longer Duration, when you only keep the ability on for 2-3 seconds? Why need a shorter Cooldown when you can retain a LARGE portion of the cooldown by cancelling it early?

Solution. It's actually very simple, really. Change Sense so it CANNOT be spammed. Make Sense act like all of Jason's other abilities. You have to wait for the full Cooldown, even if you cancel it early. You don't see Jason being able to Shift more often because he stopped it early, and you don't see him using Stalk more by cancelling it early. So why should Sense be any different?

So you just want to permanently be invisible so Jason can't find you? Grow a pair, grab a weapon and smack him in the face, use traps, use the windows, run around the furniture. There's more to this game than hiding. Don't ask to nerf Jason because you keep dying

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14 minutes ago, FunMonster said:

So you just want to permanently be invisible so Jason can't find you? Grow a pair, grab a weapon and smack him in the face, use traps, use the windows, run around the furniture. There's more to this game than hiding. Don't ask to nerf Jason because you keep dying

You clearly didn't read the actual suggestion...

 

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They could have sense and stalk positions be Jason-specific. Say Part 3 could get Sense early as it is now and perhaps Part 6 or Part 9 or another could get Stalk early and Sense last. Could even combine that with changing the cooldown properties of Sense and Stalk. Say Sense would be reset if turned off early while Stalk can be recharged if turned off early. Could even make THOSE properties Jason-specific for more variation.

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Leave sense alone, it's fine as is. We don't need counselors to have more advantages, especially after the October patch, which screwed the game up.

Jason should be able to spam sense, you are trespassing in his camp and he has every right to defend his home.

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