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AldermachXI

Hitting Jason through Doors - Intended or Not?

Should you be able to hit THROUGH doors?  

210 members have voted

  1. 1. Should you be able to hit THROUGH doors?

    • Yes
      69
    • No
      141


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2 hours ago, [IllFonic]Courier said:

We've been discussing this topic and combat mechanics in general.
How do you all feel about combat through the doors?
How many of you prefer it the way it is and why?

IMO, what's the point? You will delay the inevitable. Jason will break the door down. All you do is break a weapon quicker. Sad thing is, a Bugzy behind the door can knock off a mask with perfectly times hits if the Jason choice takes enough hits. One door locked before Rage is all it takes. 

I also think it's cheesy because as @AldermachXI said, combat in the open, but detection is problematic. Even a Jason next to a door hits walls way too easily, or cars if swinging at a person puttijng in objectives, etc. Yet a counselor with shorter reach, can nail Jason swinging a weapon no problem. 

Earlier I had a  2 Bugzys, 2 Chads, and a Tommy Jarvis rolling in a group. Each cabin they went to, the door was locked and they proceeded to hit me through it. They even knocked my mask off like this. (Btw @wes and all, amazing job on Roy wearing Jason mask when he is unmasked). If the one girl had been helping to grab the sweater, that is a quick, easy, cheap Jason kill. 

So no, no thank you on hitting through the door. Counselors need to get prepared to run. If it is there, it needs to have fear factored in harder ,etc and a counselor in a film would be shaking and near paralyzed in terror if Jason were slamming their door down. Then trying to hit between a couple boards would be problematic and hit 1/100 times.

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2 hours ago, [IllFonic]Courier said:

We've been discussing this topic and combat mechanics in general.
How do you all feel about combat through the doors?
How many of you prefer it the way it is and why?

It really makes no sense the way it is now.  You can hit or be hit through a door, but you can't damage a counselor climbing through a window even though their ass is hanging out of it.  That bubble of protection needs to go.  The hit detection is what really needs to be fixed.  If it were correct, Jason would be positioned farther away from the door to begin with.  

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2 hours ago, [IllFonic]Courier said:

We've been discussing this topic and combat mechanics in general.
How do you all feel about combat through the doors?
How many of you prefer it the way it is and why?

I can live it with either way. When i got nailed through a door the first time, it surprised me , sure ,but I wasnt affected by it if you know what i mean.

My only suggestion would be , no matter what decision is made, make it the same for both Jason and Counselor. If one can hit through doors allow the other side to as well., even if in my head, it might make more sense for Jason to actually be able to inflict while busting a door down,. Furthermore why would a counselor just stand there while a hulking beast is busting on in? But honestly I dont wanna deal with anymore meltdowns over something that , in my limited perspective, isnt  a big deal.

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I can see hitting through the door if there is literally only one hit left to smash it down because the hole is so large, but I’ve been stunned as Jason through the door for simply being outside of it and before I had even hit the damned thing.  

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It pretty much always happens to me but it's a good sign if you think about it strategically.

If it starts happening then I'll leave and knock the power out and then break all of the windows. Sometimes I'll hit the "other" door until it's almost broken. Because they stay put you are burning in their fear, and by the time you are ready to smash through their characters are a stumbling mess. Thus why they often will suddenly decide to take a run halfway through you busting down the house. Second thoughts on being a hero.

If you are REALLY into strategy then automatically know that when they run, it will always be towards the nearest team mate because they need help. You just have to start breaking the windows on the opposite side first. 

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As Jason, I like being able to CS into the space beyond the door because all too frequently there's someone there waiting to stun as I break/rage through. With a +WeaponStrength Jason, just one hit like that can make a big difference in how long sealing the deal with that target takes.
 

As noted before, this is a two-way street and until there's a removal of the free stun frames as Jason breaks down a door, it adds a way to punish counselors who are setting up for exactly that kind of stun.

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54 minutes ago, NytmereZ said:

Hit detection and stun on Jason wasn’t changed at all, grab was barely changed, Jason was made a tad Faster, the only thing that has really changed is there is less weapons(Still more than plenty to beat up and easily kill Jason) and pocket knives. People who think Jason is much more effective are drinking coolaide. I stunned Jason 2 times in a row with a damn Pot yesterday, and when we wanted to kill him and beat on him it was just as easy. Yesterday was the 1st day I played this game in a month, and will be the last until this game until real changes are made.

Roy is fast but that’s about it, the devs made his music louder to make the illusion that he’s more scary than he is,  it’s a simple trick (watch the original Halloween without sound, it’s not scary) I was hoping the game would be closer to the game I  played in October , it’s not even close.

I like how you said not a huge difference. I had seen almost all wipes my first night with the new patch. I thought "wow what a crazy difference. Forums will blow up with balance shift bitching". I didn't get to play as Jason at all. First game I played as Roy, went 2/8 in a private match on Pinehurst. Was so mad at myself. Played again later, got 2 wipes. Another Jason match, the aforementioned story of Bugzys Chads, and TJ beating me relentlessly and knocking my mask off through a door. Then I thought, there is just less pocket knives and weapons really, it's about the same. Had a match as a counselor earlier where 5 Vanessas teamed up and we beat Jason around until he morphed away because he knew we were going to kill him. I feel the game is at s good balance. Focus needs to be on bugs.

2 hours ago, Armani👑 said:

I mean, it's kind of a waste of a hit tbh. You're wasting your weapon. 

Most people I've seen stay in the house if they hit Jason through the door.

Should it be a thing? Not really

Is it a advantage to counslers - Not really

Honestly, perfect. Just breaks the counselors weapon. With less weapons, it hurts the counselor more. Just buys them a second. Problem is, if the door barely has a hole, can they really hit through it so hard to damask Jason? Seems unlikely, yet it happened. That is my issue with it. So if kept, fear and other stats like hole size need to come into play. Swings would hit the door more often. An aiming reticle would help tremendously for counselors. Not to mention improve most combat mechanics. Even a simple dot. 

1 hour ago, GhostWolfViking said:

Counselors can hit Jason through doors that have not been damaged and stun him.

Same with doors that have taken some damage.

Counselors can stun Jason through cabin walls too.

This is true. We tested it the other day as a friend told us. Straight through a cabin wall. A stunning blow nonetheless. It's not exactly going to happen often, but it is possible.

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26 minutes ago, Sweenmasheen said:

I can live it with either way. When i got nailed through a door the first time, it surprised me , sure ,but I wasnt affected by it if you know what i mean.

My only suggestion would be , no matter what decision is made, make it the same for both Jason and Counselor. If one can hit through doors allow the other side to as well., even if in my head, it might make more sense for Jason to actually be able to inflict while busting a door down,. Furthermore why would a counselor just stand there while a hulking beast is busting on in? But honestly I dont wanna deal with anymore meltdowns over something that , in my limited perspective, isnt  a big deal.

 

Agreed.

The window forcefield needs to go though.

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Well what is, technically speaking, the actual problem? The door itself as a destructible object? I don't think this can be done through the destructible walls. Is it hit boxes and clipping issues?

I think everyone knows that Jason and the counselors shouldn't be able to hit through a door regardless of if anyone likes it or not. 

Just like everyone knows there is a protective bubble at the windows. 

Maybe the devs should just fix it first so it's working as it was originally intended and then go from there. 

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1. Enter combat stance and stay at left side of door

2. Very lightly and very quickly tap right trigger once (eg. R2) to perform free swing / horizontal attack in CS. This prevents being sucked into canned animation when attack is done outside of CS.

3. Attack recovery can be cancelled with block on hit, good to do after final door hit for safety

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1 hour ago, WashingtonJones said:

Not nowadays. I think people have always been like that.

The choice of words were used in an insulting manner. You provide great knowledge to the community. You, Alkavain and anyone else that does definitive testing on the game is the cornerstone of this forum, and as important as hearing from the devs. You have as much responsibility to the community as the mods and admins do, so you should choose your words more carefully and not come on so strong, if your goal is to make others better at the game. Otherwise it comes off as "Ha, look what I know that you don't", regardless of intention. 

I get what you're saying, but I didn't intend to give anyone that impression with my post. It's difficult to convey tone on a forum at times. I do want people to get better, but I'd also like to see more people willing to learn how to resolve their gameplay problems (especially with simple solutions) rather than giving up and throwing around terms like "exploit" which simply show a lack of understanding. There are so many unintentional things in the game, both on the counselor and Jason side that people do all the time and don't even realize. The sooner people start caring less about that sort of thing and start caring more about learning the game, what can be countered and how - the better they get. 

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17 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

1. Enter combat stance and stay at left side of door

2. Very lightly and very quickly tap right trigger eg. R2 to perform free swing / horizontal attack in CS. This prevents being sucked into canned animation when attack is done outside of CS.

3. Attack recovery can be cancelled with block on hit, good to do after final door hit for safety

Nice video. I adopted this technique as well. The thing is, we shouldn't HAVE to do this to circumvent an obvious glitch.

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14 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

Nice video. I adopted this technique as well. The thing is, we shouldn't HAVE to do this to circumvent an obvious glitch.

It's less a glitch and just the way doors function. This is the way they were designed. For me it's not something that's right or wrong, it just is. I don't have a problem with them changing it (if they even can), although how they do it is a concern for me. I would rather keep it the current way than see how they handle a change. Let's not forget what happened with window interaction, which we still have to deal with the shitty results of months later. 

The devil you know, basically.

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All you can do is disperse the knowledge. You (and I and everybody else) don't want it getting lost or tainted in arguments and whatnot. Inflection over text is a bitch. That's why I try to be as straight forward as possible. 

15 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

I do want people to get better, but I'd also like to see more people willing to learn how to resolve their gameplay problems (especially with simple solutions) rather than giving up and throwing around terms like "exploit" which simply show a lack of understanding. There are so many unintentional things in the game, both on the counselor and Jason side that people do all the time and don't even realize. The sooner people stop caring less about that sort of thing and start caring more about learning the game, what can be countered and how - the better they get. 

I completely agree with this but to an extent. If there's an "exploit" that looks like something that you can see in a Jason movie or similar horror movies, then it's good. Otherwise then it's bad and needs to be removed. 

It's a trope that a killer breaking through a door gets hit one way or another. 

Also, the video you just posted, was that the bots or online?

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8 minutes ago, WashingtonJones said:

Also, the video you just posted, was that the bots or online?

Bots but it works the same online.

The only thing players might need to get comfortable with using this method is performing the "tap" of the right trigger in CS. You basically don't want to apply pressure to the trigger, and tap for just the shortest amount of time. It's the only way to execute horizontal / free swing attacks in CS. Easily repeatable once you get the hang of it.

I wouldn't recommend this method outside of CS as you're likely to get sucked into canned animation from being so close to the door, which = stun.

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4 hours ago, [IllFonic]Courier said:

We've been discussing this topic and combat mechanics in general.
How do you all feel about combat through the doors?
How many of you prefer it the way it is and why?

I think it is a bit cheap considering Jason already is vulnerable to stun as the door breaks or if he rages through one. It's not as if stunning him is that hard to begin with.

I'd suggest this:

1. No through the door swings. This goes for Jason too unless the counselor happens to be doing the barricade animation.

2. Leave Jason vulnerable to stun if he breaks the door with the canned animation and the counselor can pull off that ambush stun.

3. Jason should be immune to stun using the rage animation to break through a door.

4. I'm also fine with Jason and counselors swing through broken or open windows. 

5. Counselors swinging through certain walls to stun Jason also shouldn't be happening.

Hope that helps.

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I'm actually noticing less and less counselors actually attempting to hit Jason through doors as I'm playing right now...They seem more focused on getting the hell out of there. Another good side effect of the patch. I've just played 3 rounds as Jason in the last hour and no one has tried to hit me through a door, and the earlier clip was probably the only time it's happened since the patch.

I think the only reason this guy in particular was doing it is because he was a cheater/exploiter, so he probably does every little trick in the book. I removed the video from the thread because it wasn't about exposing him as a cheater (I did report it though), and we all know what hitting Jason through the door looks like without a video.

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12 minutes ago, Alkavian said:

1. No through the door swings. This goes for Jason too unless the counselor happens to be doing the barricade animation.

2. Leave Jason vulnerable to stun if he breaks the door with the canned animation and the counselor can pull off that ambush stun.

3. Jason should be immune to stun using the rage animation to break through a door.

4. I'm also fine with Jason and counselors swing through broken or open windows. 

5. Counselors swinging through certain walls to stun Jason also shouldn't be happening.

If a change were to happen, I agree with all of this except #2. The recovery on canned door animation is bad IMO, Jason needs to be able to make a choice - move, attack, block etc. Any or all of those choices, anything except be forced to stand still and take the hit. If you get punished in the game, it should be on you, not because the game forced you to be.

If a hypothetical change were made where CS could no longer break doors down for Jason, and no longer be used by counselors to hit Jason through doors, then I would also suggest another change:

If only canned animation could be used, then it should be sped up to the same rate that CS can break down doors. For base destruction Jasons, it's a difference of 5 seconds which is too much. I wouldn't want to take 13 seconds to break one door down again. Having to stay that long in any canned anim is not good for the game, people need to feel like they are playing / controlling their character, not just watching them do something.

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22 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

Bots but it works the same online.

Since the patch, for PC, combat stancing a door is pretty broken compared to Offline. I constantly have to keep moving Jason back into place to stop him from going into the canned animation, regardless if a counselor is around or not.

In one round last night, he pushed off into the canned animation every time no matter what I did.

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2 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

If a change were to happen, I agree with all of this except #2. The recovery on canned door animation is bad IMO, Jason needs to be able to make a choice - move, attack, block etc. Any or all of those choices, anything except be forced to stand still and take the hit. If you get punished in the game, it should be on you, not because the game forced you to be.

If a hypothetical change were made where CS could no longer break doors down for Jason, and no longer be used by counselors to hit Jason through doors, then I would also suggest another change:

If canned animation could be used, then it should be sped up to the same rate that CS can break down doors. For base destruction Jasons, it's a difference of 5 seconds which is too much. I wouldn't want to take 13 seconds to break one door down again.

It all really does come down to allowing combat stance versus a door. If you use the canned animation for simplified visibility of your surroundings while breaking, maybe you should run the risk of an ambush stun. If CS is allowed, you may get through faster, but you also gain a bit more defense for sacrificing a bit of situational awareness. 

If CS is not allowed, those door break speeds should increase and Jason needs some protection in the recovery animation.

@[IllFonic]Courier what are some of the ideas you are tossing around in regards to doors and the clipping hits? Some of our feedback may be better tailored to answer your question if we knew some of the scenarios you are tossing around.

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33 minutes ago, WashingtonJones said:

Since the patch, for PC, combat stancing a door is pretty broken compared to Offline. I constantly have to keep moving Jason back into place to stop him from going into the canned animation, regardless if a counselor is around or not.

In one round last night, he pushed off into the canned animation every time no matter what I did.

Can you definitely rule out lag as a factor? There are some weird things that happen online sometimes for virtually any action you do in the game, but for the most part I can pin it down on bad ping / lag spikes. I will post a video of me doing it online if it helps, when I jump back on later. I'll see if there's any inconsistencies.

@Alkavian The problem I'm imagining though is how to allow CS against a door for Jason without harming the counselor behind it. I often cripple a counselor just trying to barricade a door, which is something they can't stop once they trigger it, as barricading itself is a canned anim. And like point #1 you made before, if they take away the possibility of door combat for counselors then they should likewise take it away for Jason IMO. Needs to be fair.

I will also mention that this is but one example of Jason being hit because of an animation he can do nothing to stop. There are so many instances of it. That's something that definitely needs to change. Raging through doors/walls as you know is one of the worst guaranteed stuns, given that this is a special ability only gained in Rage but results in 100% vulnerability (even in start up frames / before door is broken through). It should instead offer 100% stun immunity during the animation. Especially since interior walls cannot even be broken in free swing, cannot be broken in CS, and so you are limited to only canned wall breaking and Rage which both get you stunned. 

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26 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

3. Attack recovery can be cancelled with block on hit, good to do after final door hit for safety

One thing to add here: If you want to block on hit, you have to make sure the swing arc collides with solid geometry. Doors and counselors are destructible; they do not allow an immediate block. This explains why you should position yourself to the left of the door. Weapon passes through and eventually collides with the inner wall. Then you can immediately block. You'll still have to respect approximately 0.8 of a second where you cannot attack, but you'll be blocking instead of continuing the swing. It can be a little tricky to consecutively find that sweet spot, though.

Combat stancing doors is more efficient. It's faster and allows player control to override the door-breaking animation. The greatest threat is getting your weapon stuck, which is like 2.5 seconds to recover from. Without combat stance, Jason is just as susceptible to being hit right when the door breaks as he is during the destruction animation anyway.

Really the best advice to door combat for the Jason player is to stay unpredictable. The counselor can easily anticipate an attack if a predictable rhythm is established. Part 6 has no issue with door combat because he can combat stance and poke from a distance.

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Door and window combat is great, it breaks up the monotony of searching through drawers and stumbling into Jason's grabs.

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5 hours ago, [IllFonic]Courier said:

We've been discussing this topic and combat mechanics in general.
How do you all feel about combat through the doors?
How many of you prefer it the way it is and why?

I hate it, it's like an exploit, please get rid of it, and it only benefits counselors most of the time.

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29 minutes ago, BomberBuddy said:

One thing to add here: If you want to block on hit, you have to make sure the swing arc collides with solid geometry. Doors and counselors are destructible; they do not allow an immediate block. This explains why you should position yourself to the left of the door. Weapon passes through and eventually collides with the inner wall. Then you can immediately block. You'll still have to respect approximately 0.8 of a second where you cannot attack, but you'll be blocking instead of continuing the swing. It can be a little tricky to consecutively find that sweet spot, though.

Yes this is correct, I was going to mention it but left it out for simplicity. As long as the weapon collides with something other than the door, you can block on hit eg. door frame, cabin wall. Just about anything in the environment actually, including trees (and seemingly even invisible particles in some spots). It can also be done against counselors if your weapon hits them and something else. Windows, however seem to always allow block on hit, even from clean hits where nothing else is collided with.

29 minutes ago, BomberBuddy said:

Combat stancing doors is more efficient. It's faster and allows player control to override the door-breaking animation. The greatest threat is getting your weapon stuck, which is like 2.5 seconds to recover from. Without combat stance, Jason is just as susceptible to being hit right when the door breaks as he is during the destruction animation anyway.

In most cases it is more efficient, yes, although certain cabins on uneven terrain / slopes will make it a chore to do with a vertical attack at a distance. Especially cabins with a lamp above the door. The best method for vertical attack that I find is to push into the door as close as you can, with almost your full body clipping through it, which can allow your weapon to bypass the door frame. Also with the method I posted by executing horizontal free swing in CS, it makes it more consistent / reliable without running into these issues, although it is a bit slower. The weapon can still get stuck at times but you go unpunished for it, since you're out of range of counselor attack. The main thing is you can still control your spacing / timing.

I believe I may have figured out what is getting the weapon stuck as well. It is the barricade. It can literally stop your attack, or get your weapon stuck, if you manage to hit it while breaking down the door (depends on distance / height / angle). Especially noticeable with J6/Savini if you're not in the ideal position to CS the door, their weapon will actually bounce back if it hits the barricade without causing damage to the door. On the other hand, doors without a barricade seem to break down just fine without issues. 

It is amusing that something as trivial as a door can have such gameplay impacts. :lol: 
Seems to me what the game is really about is wood (doors / drawers). Maybe the "wood" glitch needs a comeback.

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