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Kalist

Counselor combat has been nerfed

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1 hour ago, Kodiak said:

@Kalist I don't recommend doing any of Pappus' 'advanced techinques', they can land you in hot water from a cheating side of things. Exploits are exploits, and the one you're describing definitely sounds like an exploit to me. If it's been removed, then good.

 

Kodiak, I agree that some of the exploits that were shown by Pappus impacted gameplay in a negative manner. Stuff like sliding (still exists), car surfing (still exists), and body blocking objectives to bypass repairs circumvented methods for Jason to do his job. While swing cancelling may not as been as innocent as something like grabbing while shifting at the same time for a funny killcam, it certainly wasn't as gamebreaking as going out of bounds or the other techniques that I listed above.

@VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow noted that cancelling an attack is not a foreign idea for fighting games. I noticed a similar technique in Dark Souls 2, where you could stop an attack animation from playing out with a roll or backstep. Even in the original Dark Souls, techniques like the "Toggle Escape" made it so that your character wasn't slaughtered in an endless combo. Back stepping did not have invincibility frames in that game, but you could still use a technique where you could back step in 4 directions. Reverse rolling / barrel rolling put you at the rear of your opponent.

Friday the 13th: The Game is not as combat-oriented as Dark Souls, but you cannot deny the value of combat in this game. Spacing plays a major role in fighting, and that is no different here. Mind games are just as important as the attack itself; swing cancelling aided both spacing and psychological warfare.

It wasn't intended I guess. It did have a purpose for those who wanted to put up a fight. To dismiss it as an exploit seems wrong to me, especially when combat in other games idolizes similar techniques.

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I don't think feinting can be classed as an exploit. It's literally just hitting the block button while in the middle of a combat stanced attack to cancel the attack. Was it unintentional? Maybe, but something that basic can't really be classed as an exploit. Most players would discover it on their own and think of it as an innocent, intended mechanic.

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Faking an attack is a time tested technique used throughout history, it creates an opening for an alternative attack that is revealed after the "feint". Any Martial artist, warrior, or soldier has used this technique to their advantage. When faking an attack in reality you would begin your strike, then pull it back almost instantly to bring your opponent off balance, which in turn will reveal the opening for your REAL strike. That's the way I used the "feint" (or fake) in this game. You used to be able to go almost entirely through the strike, then press block to cancel when the weapon was past your hips. Try that in real life! Lol, good luck! From what I've seen since the new patch they got rid of the feint, that sucks.... It should have stayed. Just not in it's old form, and not as exploitable as Pappus showed on his videos. Fainting is a real combat technique that DEFINITELY should stay, exploits are bullshit that the weak employ to "git gud"

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The late initiation of the feint would result in easy access to bypassing recovery frames. You could feint after the hit had connected, which is what resulted in being able to bypass the recovery frames, so the counselor doesn't stand there for the small 1 second unable to move (this is arguably exploitable yes). If you feinted really late, you could initiate sliding too. And if you feinted while exiting the car you could slide through or on top of it. This is straight up glitching and exploiting. However, now, they've decreased the feinting window to such a small fraction of what it was before, that most of the time it's impossible to feint. It's at the point where when you intend to feint you accidentally commit to the full swing because the time window is so strict, at least when you have swift attacker equipped which makes the startup frames even faster and thereby the window for feinting smaller. As previously mentioned in this thread, they went about fixing this issue the wrong way. They could've simply prevented you from running straigt out of combat stance instead, then this could've been avoided all together.

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2 minutes ago, Kalist said:

They could've simply prevented you from running straigt out of combat stance instead, then this could've been avoided all together.

but the devs got that megabong! 1.8 million amirite

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On second thought though, not being able to run straight out of combat stance would create some other complications preventing certain other strategies from being as effective. For example dodging a grab, the aftermath of that dodge is heavily reliant on you being able to run straight out of combat stance after having dodged, else jason will be able to catch you with his second grab attempt after the dodge. So, yeah i don't know to be honest. I need to be careful what I wish for here. I mean, its playable at its current state, just always a shame to lose a mechanic. I'd rather lose feinting than the effectiveness of dodging though.

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19 minutes ago, Kalist said:

. They could've simply prevented you from running straigt out of combat stance instead, then this could've been avoided all together.

It's hardly either-or: they've all but fixed the "feinting" exploit, and they can and should find a way to finally patch the sliding exploit.

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There seems to be some confusion. Some of us still refer to feinting as an exploit, it's not. The exploits are the side-effects of feinting (sliding, bypassing recovery frames etc.). The devs still left feinting in the game for a reason with this patch, it was intended. It's just much harder to pull off now due to the fact that it's the only solution they could come up with at the moment to prevent the unintentional side-effects.

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7 hours ago, BomberBuddy said:

I don't buy it. Why even have counselors dedicated to the combat role then? What's the point of Chad or Jenny? Both of them are created with combat in mind. They buy others time for survival / repairing objectives, and survival for themselves. In game, you just cannot get the drop on Jason because Stealth works as a minor support stat and Jason can easily use Sense to anticipate your attack.

Jason is built to endure, so the war of attrition is in his favor. He gets beat up in the movies by attacking head on. Maybe that isn't the best option. The game reflects this.d J

The developers enabled this kind of behavior. It is only natural to overcome fear and stand up against it. Knowledge and experience breed a new challenge between the counselors and Jason that did not exist before. It is a natural evolutionary standard. The yin and yang of combat depend upon it.

Just because Chad and Jenny have a stat that benefits combat (among other things) does not mean they exist entirely for combat. I mean, trying to stun Jason or trying to fight Jason in a specific circumstance is fine, but the poster you quoted meant that fighting as a longterm means of survival should be a last resort and he is right. Take the Sheriff Garris example, the poster claimed that the Sheriff was able to hold Jason off via well placed shots and an ambush. These tactics are both still viable in game, but fighting Jason longterm as plan A will get you killed, just like it did the sheriff (the only reason fighting didn't work for him was that he stayed at it too long, attempting to 1v1 kilLJason rather than escape or buy time to run and hide). 

You make great points. I loved your post, but we aren't saying never ever fight Jason, just that beating up on Jason 1v1 should never be a smart go to option for the longterm. Of coutrse it still has its place, though. 

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7 minutes ago, Kalist said:

There seems to be some confusion. Some of us still refer to feinting as an exploit, it's not. The exploits are the side-effects of feinting (sliding, bypassing recovery frames etc.). The devs still left feinting in the game for a reason with this patch, it was intended. It's just much harder to pull off now due to the fact that it's the only solution they could come up with at the moment to prevent the unintentional side-effects.

The day there's an actual feinting mechanic in the game, the emphasized statement may be true. Until then, not so much. What's true is there's now a smaller window in which you can perform a specific glitch, which may or may not be used as a prelude to other glitches - congratulations, you can still glitch!

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There is no glitch anymore. They hotfixed it with a presumably temporary solution. To my knowledge at least. Some claim that you still can slide somehow, not really sure about that. But from my experience, both sliding and bypassing recovery frames is gone for good. At least on console. 

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6 hours ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

Are you saying that canceling an attack by pressing block mid-way through it is an exploit? I'd say not because real people in the real world can "feint" an attack by pretending to swing but not actually follow through with it.

Unfortunately that is the opinion of many members I see on here. Close-minded, black and white thinking which can't distinguish between exploit and depth. I also agree with what @Kalist and @BomberBuddy have posted, haphazardly removing counselor abilities is not a wise decision. All it does is dumb down the gameplay and make it less interesting. Animation cancelling is a staple of combat in games and by no means an exploit.

I do believe Jason's offence is weak but that weakness is mainly limited to coordinated group combat, not 1v1. He simply needs better tools to deal with group pressure, instead of nerfs on the counselor side. Most importantly, he needs execution errors fixed. Nerfing counselor combat will not solve that, and to remove something which provides depth is a flawed approach IMO.

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20 minutes ago, Kalist said:

There is no glitch anymore. They hotfixed it with a presumably temporary solution. To my knowledge at least. Some claim that you still can slide somehow, not really sure about that. But from my experience, both sliding and bypassing recovery frames is gone for good. At least on console. 

I made the mistake of relying on someone else's word for it staying in the game. Shame on me. I don't think I'm doing it wrong (since I was never an intentional slider), but I cannot seem recreate slide on PS4. I guess the deed is done. Sliding was always more difficult to pull off on console versions, right?

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8 minutes ago, BomberBuddy said:

I made the mistake of relying on someone else's word for it staying in the game. Shame on me. I don't think I'm doing it wrong (since I was never an intentional slider), but I cannot seem recreate slide on PS4. I guess the deed is done. Sliding was always more difficult to pull off on console versions, right?

Difficult to do without getting glitched, at least for me. I didn't do it in real matches but did test it out to understand how it works. I do know a member on here who should be able to confirm.

@Aaron what's the word on it? 

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Sliding has always been, in my case too, an accidental and relatively rare outcome of feinting too late into the swing while simultaneously running out of combat stance. Since the newest patch no longer allows late feinting, quite the opposite actually, I personally find it impossible to recreate. Only ever played it on Xbox, so I don't know about the situation on PC or PS4. 

Certain videos of Pappus' showcases how he was able to slide whenever he saw fit after a swing. It's still a mystery to me how he did it. Might be because Vanessa's swing, presumably together with epic swift attacker, allowed for an easier access to abuse it (females' swings are faster than male characters' swings). He also played on PC, that might've had something to do with it too. Maybe keyboard inputs are more precise. He basically replaced the dodge with a slide equivalent to that of a super dodge. 

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4 hours ago, BomberBuddy said:

Friday the 13th: The Game is not as combat-oriented as Dark Souls, but you cannot deny the value of combat in this game. Spacing plays a major role in fighting, and that is no different here. Mind games are just as important as the attack itself; swing cancelling aided both spacing and psychological warfare.

Funny thing is, in the funding stage of the game, the devs said their combat system would be reminiscent of Dark Souls.

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1 hour ago, B0bZomb1e said:

Idk man, sumthin about how these folks all want F13 to be more combat based and theres talk of megabongs.

Fighting and megabongs? Hell im here to party at this point.

Those two don't work. Fighting is barely viable now, and the devs with their megabong and trying to enforce S T E A L T H

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5 hours ago, Kalist said:

The late initiation of the feint would result in easy access to bypassing recovery frames. You could feint after the hit had connected, which is what resulted in being able to bypass the recovery frames, so the counselor doesn't stand there for the small 1 second unable to move (this is arguably exploitable yes). If you feinted really late, you could initiate sliding too. And if you feinted while exiting the car you could slide through or on top of it. This is straight up glitching and exploiting. However, now, they've decreased the feinting window to such a small fraction of what it was before, that most of the time it's impossible to feint. It's at the point where when you intend to feint you accidentally commit to the full swing because the time window is so strict, at least when you have swift attacker equipped which makes the startup frames even faster and thereby the window for feinting smaller. As previously mentioned in this thread, they went about fixing this issue the wrong way. They could've simply prevented you from running straigt out of combat stance instead, then this could've been avoided all together.

In those examples, if they could figure out a way to keep the feint while removing the exploits, it would be a welcome part of the game. Maybe remove the option to cancel recovery frames after a hit, and after the attack animation is 75% complete, but otherwise feinting should be in the game.

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2 minutes ago, B0bZomb1e said:

If you want combat go play for honor.

God i love that stupid mess of a game.

Funny how the devs said during funding that the combat system in this game would be reminiscent of that in Dark Souls.

Good meme.

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27 minutes ago, Boostio said:

Funny how the devs said during funding that the combat system in this game would be reminiscent of that in Dark Souls.

Good meme.

To be honest, it does sometimes feel like Dark Souls. Moreso when Jason's combat stance wasn't glitched, but still.

What a lot of people tend to get wrong about Dark Souls was the idea that it had an advanced combat system. In reality, it was the norm with attack/block/roll-dodge against an opponent who would do the same. There were different types of melee weapons ofc (not to mention magic), but it came down to knowing how the weapon functions, how long the recovery between swings would be, managing stamina, etc.

However, what made Dark Souls vicious was that it was the kind of game that royally screwed you over if you failed something even once, and insta-dying was not off the menu either. In this sense, that is probably what Friday the 13th should emulate IMO. A counselor who is by themselves should be in grave danger if they're forced to fight Jason outside of a calculated ambush or using firearms. The changes that occured thus far can be seen as a step in the right direction, albeit it might also encourage people to mob up on Jason more in order to counter the changes, so there's still plenty of work left to be done.

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