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Kalist

Counselor combat has been nerfed

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All the top tier Battle Chads have probably noticed that you're no longer able to bypass the recovery frames when utilizing the swing cancel animation (feinting). In fact, even feinting has been nerfed to the point where it's no longer reliable to do, because the window for cancelling your swing is less than a millisecond now. 

If you've seen Pappus YouTube videos you'll know what I'm talking about. He relied on this technique a lot where he feinted to bypass recovery frames, allowing him to run around Jason instantly after hitting him, without him being able to react with a grab in time, mostly. This also worked as a counter to when you missed your swing, if say Jason walks backwards or to the side you could simply cancel your swing.

Why have the devs refrained from including this nerf in the patch notes? It's a pretty big deal to the very few who enjoys the combat system. 

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Wow. This explains alot. I didn't even know about that glitch. Infact, exploiting that is downright cheating. Glitching little bastards...

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It's certainly a controversial topic. Some would categorize it as an exploit, others would say it's an advanced combat technique. Either way, I guess it was gonna come sooner or later, it allowed me to 1v1 Jason an entire match where the only counter to it was to remap your controller keys so that you can block it in time (even then I could still bypass recovery frames and move out of the way for when he exits block and tries to grab/swing). A glitch? Maybe... OP once you mastered it? Hell yeah, it made you untouchable

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I miss it. Very much.

It's gone. I'd say for good, too. Want to know the funny part? They did it to try and fix the "sliding" exploit, and it still works. Swing cancelling's removal was in vain. So now for those who enjoyed the depth to combat suffer even more for a much more binary outcome: you either hit or miss. No in between anymore. Psychological warfare suffers, too.

Its removal only hurts the game. Combat is a viable strategy against Jason, just like repairing objectives. Why take away the tools for combat characters (especially Vanessa, Chad, and Jenny) to succeed? Why wouldn't you want to duel against someone with tricks up their sleeves? It was part of the game's charm. If they could have just looked at the way Jason was with the October 11th patch and continued from there (heck even with the door durability bug, I miss that too) animation cancelling technique would still have a place, perhaps made an even more valuable because of the extended grab range still. An increase in the hitbox for weapon strikes would have made Jason perfect. I won't pretend to know specific tweaks, but the way he is right now could have been prevented or amended.

Since Jason is weak, they nerfed counselors to compensate. I think they are looking in the wrong direction, but I'm certainly biased. Combat is my drawing point.

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2 minutes ago, BomberBuddy said:

I*snip

The main issue is that having counselors who can 1v1 a supernatural undead mass murderer with ease meant nobody was afraid of him once you got good. To be frank, combat should realistically be the very last resort or something you do as a sneak attack if you manage to surprise Jason.

Ideally, combat should be like what Sheriff Garris did to Jason in Part VI. He was able to repeatedly shoot Jason, yet Jason got back up quicly like he was getting hit by nerf darts. And the sheriff managed to get the jump on Jason while repeatedly beating Jason up, but he was only able to do so because he managed to ambush Jason. Eventually, because he stood around for too long, Jason bended him like a book, taking all those hits earlier like a champ.

Horror games start becoming less fun when you're able to deal with the game's signature villain with ease. That's one of the major reasons why people feel so turned off when playing the game once they know how to deal with Jason.

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It made for an unlimited potential in combat where you could refine and hone your skills as a counselor and Jason. Now, it's all about getting that hit to connect, because if you don't, you're defenseless against the aftermath. All Jason has to do is keep his distance, walk to the side and/or backwards = victory. And let's be honest, the hit detection in this game is known to be quite... wonky at times. Not to mention, you can't dodge unless that hit connects. The dodging mechanic is the ONLY way to get you out of the way in time now (that is if you've got evasion perk equipped even)

Even before this recent patch, it still took considerably more skill to fight jason as a counselor, than it did to fight a counselor as Jason. Only difference now is that they made the combat more dull and superficial. 

 

3 hours ago, Trident77 said:

 

Horror games start becoming less fun when you're able to deal with the game's signature villain with ease. That's one of the major reasons why people feel so turned off when playing the game once they know how to deal with Jason.

A game upholds its interest as long as it's challenging to a certain point, not impossible, but challenging. With this recent patch, it's impossible to fight Jason when the player reaches a certain skill level. 

Boredom is subjective and depends on your playstyle. If you've been around long enough you'll notice that some people prefer to stay and fight Jason rather than escape, because escaping gets boring after a while. A deep combat system on the other hand, keeps an interest for longer because each opponent is at a different skill level, mostly.

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1 minute ago, Kalist said:

A game upholds its interest as long as it's challenging to a certain point, not impossible, but challenging. With this recent patch, it's impossible to fight Jason when the player reaches a certain skill level. 

Boredom is subjective and depends on your playstyle. If you've been around long enough you'll notice that some people prefer to stay and fight Jason rather than escape, because escaping gets boring after a while. A deep combat system on the other hand, keeps an interest for longer because each opponent is at a different skill level, mostly.

Considering how many pissed off people there are on the forums about how Jason is easily stunned, mobs beating up on him like he's Part 1 Jason, etc., I'd have to say making combat more difficult for counselors is not a terrible way to go about fixing the game.

On that same exact note, combat stance shouldn't exist either, but that's for a different topic.

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20 minutes ago, Trident77 said:

To be frank, combat should realistically be the very last resort or something you do as a sneak attack if you manage to surprise Jason.

I don't buy it. Why even have counselors dedicated to the combat role then? What's the point of Chad or Jenny? Both of them are created with combat in mind. They buy others time for survival / repairing objectives, and survival for themselves. In game, you just cannot get the drop on Jason because Stealth works as a minor support stat and Jason can easily use Sense to anticipate your attack.

Jason is built to endure, so the war of attrition is in his favor. He gets beat up in the movies by attacking head on. Maybe that isn't the best option. The game reflects this.

The developers enabled this kind of behavior. It is only natural to overcome fear and stand up against it. Knowledge and experience breed a new challenge between the counselors and Jason that did not exist before. It is a natural evolutionary standard. The yin and yang of combat depend upon it.

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So it "added depth" to combat...but also made a counselor who used it correctly "untouchable" as there was literally no combat counter for Jason. That's not depth, any more than roof glitching was depth. 

On the sliding issue, it's unfortunate the devs don't understand their own game well enough to address exploits that have been known for many months. Still, there's an easy community solution I like to employ: as Jason, if I see anyone slide during a game, it ends immediately; as a counselor, I run them over the second I get a chance. In neither case do I warn about it, which just gives morons a chance to pontificate about "advanced combat techniques."

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3 hours ago, Trident77 said:

Considering how many pissed off people there are on the forums about how Jason is easily stunned, mobs beating up on him like he's Part 1 Jason, etc., I'd have to say making combat more difficult for counselors is not a terrible way to go about fixing the game.

Unfortunately the opinion of the majority will prevail. Given the majority do not have a playstyle that promotes combat in this game. 

 

3 hours ago, Dr. Lecter said:

So it "added depth" to combat...but also made a counselor who used it correctly "untouchable" as there was literally no combat counter for Jason. That's not depth, any more than roof glitching was depth. 

There was a counter, blocking - well sort of. Blocking against a counselor who bypasses recovery frames would reset the situation.

In its current state after this recent patch, you can't even dodge if Jason blocks your attack. So if Jason blocks, or if Jason walks sideways or backwards you're screwed either way now.

 

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14 minutes ago, Trident77 said:

Considering how many pissed off people there are on the forums about how Jason is easily stunned, mobs beating up on him like he's Part 1 Jason, etc., I'd have to say making combat more difficult for counselors is not a terrible way to go about fixing the game.

On that same exact note, combat stance shouldn't exist either, but that's for a different topic.

I would be fine if they dropped combat stance.  To me it feels like an idea that sounded good on paper, was never implemented well, and remained in the game just because they had focused on it and didn't want to let it go after investing time and resources into.  I know I'm going on a limb there, but that's how I feel.  I've just never found it useful beyond breaking doors down. 

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5 minutes ago, TimmyJarvis said:

I would be fine if they dropped combat stance.  To me it feels like an idea that sounded good on paper, was never implemented well, and remained in the game just because they had focused on it and didn't want to let it go after investing time and resources into.  I know I'm going on a limb there, but that's how I feel.  I've just never found it useful beyond breaking doors down. 

That's because you are using it wrong :-) . Combat stance is to be used as a targeting system, allowing you to lock onto Jason and surprise hitting him by doing a 180 turn with swift attacker equipped.

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14 minutes ago, Kalist said:

Unfortunately the opinion of the majority will prevail. Given the majority do not have a playstyle that promotes combat in this game. 

The issue here is we have a game where it's encouraged at higher levels to beat on Jason. He can be dealt with easily by using a mob, and even lower level people can eventually figure this out with enough wrenches/machetes. So we currently have a game whose gameplay encourages to beat on Jason like a pinata, and I can't imagine many of the fans enjoying what has happened here.

To be fair, many problems exist that needs to be addressed, but counselors have too many combat advantages against Jason that makes it difficult to feel like you're really in his shoes when you play as him. I'm not advocating he should be able to 8/8 with ease, but I can't see a bright future for this game when it involves people who aren't afraid of the villain in a horror theme, and therefore are encouraged to beat on him like Part 1.

9 minutes ago, TimmyJarvis said:

I would be fine if they dropped combat stance.  To me it feels like an idea that sounded good on paper, was never implemented well, and remained in the game just because they had focused on it and didn't want to let it go after investing time and resources into.  I know I'm going on a limb there, but that's how I feel.  I've just never found it useful beyond breaking doors down. 

There's actually an interesting topic that covers combat stance. It's worth a look; interesting ideas were floating around.

http://forum.f13game.com/topic/13899-the-importance-of-jasons-melee-strikes/

 

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1 minute ago, Kalist said:

That's because you are using it wrong :-) . Combat stance is to be used as a targeting system, allowing you to lock onto Jason and surprise hitting him by doing a 180 turn with swift attacker equipped.

I probably am.  An actual tutorial would not hurt this game one bit.

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8 minutes ago, Dr. Lecter said:

So it "added depth" to combat...but also made a counselor who used it correctly "untouchable" as there was literally no combat counter for Jason. That's not depth, any more than roof glitching was depth. 

I find it absurd that you would even compare it to roof glitching. Swing cancelling was not that severe. You can leave the game if you want, though. No one will stop you.

There were methods of deterrence. Knives do wonders, out of sight shift grabs do the trick, cutting the power to reduce stamina recharge would have made it so that you could anticipate a devoted attack and counter accordingly. A well-placed trap could have impeded progress. If you are getting hit, you will get Rage faster. This means faster cool downs. It's about spacing and anticipating. Victory could have still been acquired for Jason.

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4 minutes ago, BomberBuddy said:

I find it absurd that you would even compare it to roof glitching.

Of course you do, everyone likes a fig leaf ;)

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It is important if weapons exist to allow the counselors to slow Jason down. They should be able to keep him in bay infinitely in a 1v1 scenario..  Also if the game comes down to melee a 7v1 should still stall out at some point in this game.


This is about Characters escaping. Car/police/Boat.  If 7 vs 1 could result in Jason dying I would hope most of the counselors would also be dead in the process and the 1 or 2 survivors would be scarred for life by the experience.

Jason needs to always be a threat. Maybe one you can slow down, or delay, but the moment he is a joke, there is no reason to play the game.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Dr. Lecter said:

Of course you do, everyone likes a fig leaf ;)

Okay pal. Maybe one day you'll learn that everything isn't so clearly defined in life. Ambiguity exists. I see where your stance lies, and it's not in combat. Fair enough.

 

16 minutes ago, Trident77 said:

The issue here is we have a game where it's encouraged at higher levels to beat on Jason. He can be dealt with easily by using a mob, and even lower level people can eventually figure this out with enough wrenches/machetes. So we currently have a game whose gameplay encourages to beat on Jason like a pinata, and I can't imagine many of the fans enjoying what has happened here.

This is the duality of combat. You will have people who make noble efforts do defend others, buy themselves or others time, but you will also get mobs to fight against Jason like a witch hunt. So the answer is to nerf combat for the counselors to drag them down to the level of a weak opponent? Why not make Jason stronger like he was with the October 11th patch and work from there?

Like I said, it is only natural for counselors to get better at combat due to knowledge and experience. They nerfed Jason and Counselors surpassed him gameplay-wise because prior to the nerf, they were able to deal with an opponent who was stronger at the time. A shift occurred because of the changes to Jason.

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1 hour ago, Kalist said:

All the top tier Battle Chads have probably noticed that you're no longer able to bypass the recovery frames when utilizing the swing cancel animation (feinting). In fact, even feinting has been nerfed to the point where it's no longer reliable to do, because the window for cancelling your swing is less than a millisecond now. 

If you've seen Pappus YouTube videos you'll know what I'm talking about. He relied on this technique a lot where he feinted to bypass recovery frames, allowing him to run around Jason instantly after hitting him, without him being able to react with a grab in time, mostly. This also worked as a counter to when you missed your swing, if say Jason walks backwards or to the side you could simply cancel your swing.

Why have the devs refrained from including this nerf in the patch notes? It's a pretty big deal to the very few who enjoys the combat system. 

Get used to that. The devs make changes to the game without them being in the patch notes practically with every patch.

Oh and BTW? GOOD! FANTASTIC! WONDERFUL! STUPENDOUS! They fixed that cheating glitch. 

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Cheating glitch? It was a method that took a long time to master. Months... A cool move. But, as with every game these days, they have to appeal to the masses and remove the actual charm of the game. I ain't complaining tho, I'm just addressing a topic that  deserves to be addressed, since the devs overlooked it.

Don't worry I'll adapt, still got some tricks left

 

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1 hour ago, lasse_hei said:

Wow. This explains alot. I didn't even know about that glitch. Infact, exploiting that is downright cheating. Glitching little bastards...

Are you saying that canceling an attack by pressing block mid-way through it is an exploit? I'd say not because real people in the real world can "feint" an attack by pretending to swing but not actually follow through with it.

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7 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

Are you saying that canceling an attack by pressing block mid-way through it is an exploit? I'd say not because real people in the real world can "feint" an attack by pretending to swing but not actually follow through with it.

And if the mechanic under discussion were the result of using a "Feint" button, all this BS regarding combat techniques would be on point (though we all know they would not have made an intended mechanic work as powerfully as this one). 

It's not; it's an unintended side effect of the "Block" mechanic, which removes melee from Jason's combat toolbag. Sure, you can still knife them, but I knifed plenty of roof glitchers too.

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4 minutes ago, Dr. Lecter said:

And if the mechanic under discussion were the result of using a "Feint" button, all this BS regarding combat techniques would be on point (though we all know they would not have made an intended mechanic work as powerfully as this one). 

Its not; it's an unintended side effect of the "Block" mechanic, which removes melee from Jason's combat toolbag. Sure, you can still knife them, but I knifed plenty of roof glitchers too.

Someone said the attack canceling being removed might be a result of them trying to fix the slide glitch, which used attack canceling, but the slide still works if you do it right, so they need to figure out another way to fix the slide glitch.

Not every feature in a game needs ONE button assigned to its function. The majority of games have many features that require button combinations in sequence. Attack canceling is/was done by pressing attack and then block before the attack finishes. Lots of games have a button combo sort of like that. Assuming no glitches are involved, being able to "feint" should be a part of this game because it is a basic combat technique in the real world.

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58 minutes ago, Kalist said:

Unfortunately the opinion of the majority will prevail. Given the majority do not have a playstyle that promotes combat in this game. 

This is a fundamentally untrue statement. I love fighting Jason. I just like to do it the way the game intends: without exploiting glitches.

The game's loading screens say that you shouldn't fight Jason head to head. As a counselor you're supposed to use subterfuge cunning and strategy.

This is Friday the 13th. Counselors shouldn't be able to go toe to toe with Jason. The combat is not refined? It's a last resort, it shouldn't be.

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2 minutes ago, Caulus said:

This is a fundamentally untrue statement. I love fighting Jason. I just like to do it the way the game intends: without exploiting glitches.

The game's loading screens say that you shouldn't fight Jason head to head. As a counselor you're supposed to use subterfuge and strategy.

This is Friday the 13th. Counselors shouldn't be able to go toe to toe with Jason. The combat is not refined? It's a last resort, it shouldn't be.

You're forgetting one very crucial factor.

These devs hit a megabong before making this game, considering half the shit in it doesn't work right.

Woopsie.

And those exploits that get 'fixed'?

There's always some lazy fix they make that usually doesn't even fix it. This time not only did combat get an unrealistic nerf, but sliding is still possible

Double woopsie.

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