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xHowl-

Devs' used Marketplace Package?

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It does take a lot of work and time, but did they not say it was coming back in Summer but it was delayed until now? 6 months later

Seriously, they knew AI takes time and a lot of work but if they knew they couldn't do it themselves or had time constraints then hire some more programmers to help out. 

You know, it wouldn't harm them to hire more developers to help fix bugs, push out updates etc...

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I love offline bots. But the fact that they pushed it back so long after so many broken promises, then they do this????!! Gun is shady as hell. And this is pretty much a con. IF it is true....

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Just now, Charlie Chainsaw said:

I love offline bots. But the fact that they pushed it back so long after so many broken promises, then they do this????!! Gun is shady as hell. And this is pretty much a con. IF it is true....

I know I've said a lot of stuff about this and that and blah blah. But in the end, they put bots off for so long and claim they're working really hard on the content update and then the rumour comes out and it is just seems like an absolute joke to some of us. It's like, with what they were saying on twitter about they're so proud of the dev. team for their hard work and dedication... were they lying to try get sympathy?

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I guess to conclude for me - if you think that buying an AI asset for a game is simply buy the asset, slap it into game, it works, call it a day - then you really don't understand or know what you're talking about and you are arguing or resenting an emotional idea that you have built up in your head that doesn't represent reality.

Implementing a 3rd party AI asset into your game can and often does require a lot of work to get it to work with your framework.  I'm not speaking as one that reads about game design and software development and talks about it without experience.  Its my vocation and what pays my bills and my retirement fund.

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2 hours ago, auticus said:

I'm an indie game dev.  I've been doing game development for 20+ years.  This kind of stuff is normal.  I don't see a problem with it.  The asset stores for Unreal and Unity game engines are huge because it saves time and is the same as hiring an outside party to add a component to your game.  

The big AAA studios do the same thing, only they wrote their own game engine so they contract 3rd party teams to fill in gaps.  Same as this.  This is making a giant issue out of literally nothing and pretty much every game out there does this to an extent, particularly the indie/small companies.  Especially when it comes to areas that the dev team is not proficient in.  

I agree. It wouldn’t be a big deal... IF they didn’t base the entire delay of the game around building offline single player. Then repeatedly delay the mode. All that time should have been used to program the AI. When all they did was buy a kit. There’s no excuse this wasn’t in upon release in that case. This makes it look like they have been lying this whole time. That’s the issue. 

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Doesn’t matter what the devs do there will always be that one person or group that complains and finds flaws. Living a life with the glass always half empty is a very sad way to go about your life/lives. 

Has it ever occurred to you (using “you” collectively here) that in the automotive industry the actual vehicle manufacturer does not design/build every component and/or part that goes into the final assembly of the vehicle? Of course not, GM doesn’t fabricate wiring harnesses or control units for their vehicles. Electric vehicle manufacturers, aside from possibly Tesla, do not build all of the components for the primary vehicle battery. I would even venture to say that Microsoft doesn’t manufacture every component utilized in the assembly of a single gaming console. Do you think Microsoft owns factories that creates the synthetics used to manufacture the controller body or analog stick textures? The answer is most likely no because another company or group of companies is collectively contracted to manufacture said part and than once all of the parts are made they are assemble and branded under the Microsoft umbrella.

This is the way of the world and that is how corporations function both big and small. It’s one thing if the devs used third party assets and claimed it was their own property because that’s an entirely different argument but to say they cheaped out and did x instead of y... guess what more efficient solutions and affordable means are available across the board in all industries and that’s how businesses operate. If you cannot accept that well than I raise my glass half full to you and wish you a Merry Christmas. 

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No doubt or argument that the dev team is over their head and needs more developers on their team.

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1 minute ago, auticus said:

I guess to conclude for me - if you think that buying an AI asset for a game is simply buy the asset, slap it into game, it works, call it a day - then you really don't understand or know what you're talking about and you are arguing or resenting an emotional idea that you have built up in your head that doesn't represent reality.

Implementing a 3rd party AI asset into your game can and often does require a lot of work to get it to work with your framework.

I know it's not just slap it in and bam, working. They obviously still have to program them themselves (I did mention this...) but, when they claim they're hard at work and delay it loads, it has to be brought up in question... I understood the delay because I thought they were creating the bots from scratch. 

 

And, once again before I get called out for it. YES I KNOW IT'S JUST A RUMOUR AT THIS POINT.

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1 minute ago, xHowl- said:

I know it's not just slap it in and bam, working. They obviously still have to program them themselves (I did mention this...) but, when they claim they're hard at work and delay it loads, it has to be brought up in question... I understood the delay because I thought they were creating the bots from scratch. 

 

And, once again before I get called out for it. YES I KNOW IT'S JUST A RUMOUR AT THIS POINT.

So than why spread rumors on an already over-reactive forum? You could create an account and PM the devs. Assuming you ever received an official response you could than copy and paste said response here or on whatever social media site your heart desires as opposed to stirring the pot here with this. 

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3 minutes ago, xHowl- said:

I know it's not just slap it in and bam, working. They obviously still have to program them themselves (I did mention this...) but, when they claim they're hard at work and delay it loads, it has to be brought up in question... I understood the delay because I thought they were creating the bots from scratch. 

 

And, once again before I get called out for it. YES I KNOW IT'S JUST A RUMOUR AT THIS POINT.

Even if true, unless you are on the team and know exactly how much effort took place in getting the 3rd party ai package to work, there is no ground to stand on to call them shady or liars.  I've implemented 3rd party ai controls.  It is a lot of work.  It requires a ton of effort in some cases depending on the package and  your framework.  It is entirely reasonable and highly likely that it DID require their full attention to get working properly and was the cause of most if not all their delays.

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18 minutes ago, MyNameisJason said:

So than why spread rumors on an already over-reactive forum? You could create an account and PM the devs. Assuming you ever received an official response you could than copy and paste said response here or on whatever social media site your heart desires as opposed to stirring the pot here with this. 

Because originally, all I wanted was opinions on what people thought of the rumour, but it was taken down by either the sub-reddit mods or the developers and I thought that was absolutely ridiculous. This post is only on this forum here because they removed it from the reddit. If there is nothing to hide on their end, then why would they take it down? If true, they obviously didn't want people to find out about it. 

 

16 minutes ago, auticus said:

Even if true, unless you are on the team and know exactly how much effort took place in getting the 3rd party ai package to work, there is no ground to stand on to call them shady or liars.  I've implemented 3rd party ai controls.  It is a lot of work.  It requires a ton of effort in some cases depending on the package and  your framework.  It is entirely reasonable and highly likely that it DID require their full attention to get working properly and was the cause of most if not all their delays.

Never once here have I called them shady or liars. I said maybe they could've been lying on their twitter about the hard work, but that's it. 

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If they seriously used an AI Package, I'd be upset only because I personally feel as if we had been lied to on why there was such a delay in getting out Offline mode.

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2 minutes ago, xHowl- said:

If they used the AI Assets - will they add the AI Asset in the credits menu? Probably not. 

Probably not.  Why would they?  When software devs use telerik controls in their financial apps or infragistics controls in their apps or unity developers use unity assets they also don't usually put them in the credits menu unless the software license that they purchased explicitly states you must.  

Asset developers and 3rd party control developers make money explicitly for others to use their work in licensed commercial products.  They don't require written credit lines.  They take a paycheck.

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2 minutes ago, auticus said:

Probably not.  Why would they?  When software devs use telerik controls in their financial apps or infragistics controls in their apps or unity developers use unity assets they also don't usually put them in the credits menu unless the software license that they purchased explicitly states you must.  

Sorry, I removed that because I realise how stupid it sounded.

The main point:

Take into consideration all of the delays for singleplayer/offline bots, they finally release offline bots after a bunch of delays and guess what? They work but are they all fully functional? No. So what have they been doing the past 6 months? Seems like it was just rushed out in my opinion. Have they truly been working on it for 6+ months? No chance, otherwise they would have functioning bots without constantly getting stuck on the terrain or hiding lots + more. Probably spent the last couple of months working on them, if that.

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I get the impression they put a lot of effort and love into the Virtual Cabin 2.0.  But being released at the same time as offline bots it just makes the bots seem.... lazy?  Or boring?  I don't know.  It's just such low effort compared to the rest of the game.  And I refuse to believe they didn't know Jarvis was gonna get glitched out opening drawers and diving through windows endlessly.  Did they test it at all?  One would think so.  I really think they should have saved offline bots and just gave us the Virtual Cabin/Shelly.  Don't get me wrong.  At first I was really excited to play against bots.  No more rage quitting hosts or squeeking kids!  Sounded good in theory.  But it's soooooo boring.  I want to sit and grind XP but I really can't be bothered.  The bots offer absolutely no challenge, even on the hardest difficulty.  

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I worked on a battle-sim title a few years back and it took a solid 18 months to get the AI functioning properly.  And even after 18 months it did some stupid things that had to be slowly patched over the course of a few more months.  

I would say before issuing a statement saying that in six months a fully functional set of AI could be written, that you try it yourself.  You'll find its a lot harder than you think.  

I wish AI was that easy to implement properly.  

And again - on the "bots are so boring" - not everyone wants to play the game competitively.  I'd rather drink bleach and shove nails into my eyes than have to deal with multiplayer strangers screaming racial epitaphs and chomping into their mic and rage quitting and wasting my time.

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Just now, johnnyfoodstamp said:

I get the impression they put a lot of effort and love into the Virtual Cabin 2.0.  But being released at the same time as offline bots it just makes the bots seem.... lazy?  Or boring?  I don't know.  It's just such low effort compared to the rest of the game.  And I refuse to believe they didn't know Jarvis was gonna get glitched out opening drawers and diving through windows endlessly.  Did they test it at all?  One would think so.  I really think they should have saved offline bots and just gave us the Virtual Cabin/Shelly.  Don't get me wrong.  At first I was really excited to play against bots.  No more rage quitting hosts or squeeking kids!  Sounded good in theory.  But it's soooooo boring.  I want to sit and grind XP but I really can't be bothered.  The bots offer absolutely no challenge, even on the hardest difficulty.  

They worked on the virtual cabin but didn't they hire extra help on it? correct me if I'm mistaken 

Still, in my opinion bots are fun but they could've been much better if they hadn't been rushed out or had higher level programmers working on them. 

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1 minute ago, auticus said:

I worked on a battle-sim title a few years back and it took a solid 18 months to get the AI functioning properly.  And even after 18 months it did some stupid things that had to be slowly patched over the course of a few more months.  

I would say before issuing a statement saying that in six months a fully functional set of AI could be written, that you try it yourself.  You'll find its a lot harder than you think.  

I wish AI was that easy to implement properly.  

I imagine it is incredibly hard, but that is no excuse... If they know how difficult bots are to make then they should've hired more developers for additional help... 

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Ive been upset with the devs in the past with lack of communication/transparency, and not being able to deliver to the Xbox on a timely manner. This however, is nothing more than a witch hunt. Dedicated servers not existing is an issue, them using assets for AI is not. 

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8 minutes ago, xHowl- said:

Because originally, all I wanted was opinions on what people thought of the rumour, but it was taken down by either the sub-reddit mods or the developers and I thought that was absolutely ridiculous. This post is only on this forum here because they removed it from the reddit. If there is nothing to hide on their end, then why would they take it down? If true, they obviously didn't want people to find out about it. 

You’re telling me that you can’t understand why they would delete something off of a social media site that was formed off the basis of a rumor? A rumor which may or may not be true but if false is conjecture that would negatively impact their business. 

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I don't know what their budget is.  I know a solid AI developer runs around $100k a year.  Thats just one guy.  

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Just now, MyNameisJason said:

You’re telling me that you can’t understand why they would delete something off of a social media site that was formed off the basis of a rumor? A rumor which may or may not be true but if false is conjecture that would negatively impact their business. 

Exactly. Why would they? Deleted within 5 minutes without no replies, no warning. Seriously, is that not suspicious of trying to hide it from the community? I'll answer for you: Yes it is.

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It seriously doesn't matter. In January I am going offline but still going to be playing offline bots. But you know what, NO data saves!!!! None of my Jason's or levels will be there. Hopefully new games in the future such as "Last Year" will be more horrorish and well made.

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2 minutes ago, TiffanyCox said:

It seriously doesn't matter. In January I am going offline but still going to be playing offline bots. But you know what, NO data saves!!!! None of my Jason's or levels will be there. Hopefully new games in the future such as "Last Year" will be more horrorish and well made.

Careful with what you say, some of the fanboys will be out in full force in a minute telling you to stop complaining that the data doesn't save and to give them more time! 

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Just now, xHowl- said:

Careful with what you say, some of the fanboys will be out in full force in a minute telling you to stop complaining that the data doesn't save and to give them more time! 

I already asked the Devs. He said he will confirm to me today whether or not data will save in the future. But I hope so, because I am not going to be playing at all if my shit doesn't save. 

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