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bewareofbears

The Importance of Jason's Melee Strikes

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Jason is bound, or locked into, lengthy animations no matter what he does and is almost always vulnerable because of it. Examples:

  • If Jason grabs a counselor, he can be stunned while doing so and enter a second animation of him being stuned
  • Breaking down a door, Jason can be stunned immediately after the door breaks because he has to follow through with the animation- again locking him in a stunned animation

This is why Jason's melee strikes are so important and why Jason is more or less screwed at close range lately: Jason is easily stunned and far from deadly if you're near him. There are no guaranteed kills with a grab due to being stunned. The only way to ensure a kill is to melee strike and Jason's hit detection is horrendous right now, making the task's success based more on luck than skill. There are Jason's who can't hit a crouching counselor.

Combat stance for Jason should be removed and he should be able to block at any time.

Jason should always be deadly at close range and it should always be a risk to attempt to combat Jason.

Jason needs to be able to reliably hit a counselor going through a window. The invisible barrier needs to be removed.

Stun times should be shortened for Jason when a counselor uses a pocketknife or is freed by another counselor. Firecrackers should not be able to interrupt a grab (once Jason is holding the counselor).

I'm not saying these are all great ideas but something needs to be done- particularly to allow Jason to effectively defend himself at close range. Stun times are too lengthy and there is no penalty for counselors gaining up on Jason. The most important change, other than fixing his broken grab, is making his melee strikes actually do what they're supposed to do.

If you agree or disagree, feel free to say so. Make constructive suggestions if you have any.

@ShiftySamurai @[IllFonic]Courier

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21 minutes ago, MichaelMemers said:

Stun times are basically nonexistent, the problem is how easy it is to stun him.

This is what I have to say in regards to stuns. I never felt I was prevented from moving too much when stunned, but it's far too easy to be stunned. For this reason, I've recently been playing part 9 much more due to having a stun resist, but even then, it's still fairly common for multiple counselors to perform several stuns, or otherwise find it to be viable to attack Jason over running from him.

As for Jason's melee, it should be always capable of hitting all counselors within strike zone. Crouching shouldn't be a problem. 

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36 minutes ago, MichaelMemers said:

Stun times are basically nonexistent, the problem is how easy it is to stun him.

Exactly right. Big bad Jason typicaly can only take a single shot before getting stunned. The Councilors however need three or four shots before they are dead. So Councilor vs Jason melee combat boils down to how many light attacks Jason can land before the Councilor can land a single stunning light attack. The Councilor dosen't need to dodge or throw a heavy attack. They just need to live long enough to land that hit. And if they have a health spray they will heal and run away. Jason dosen't bother blocking or using a heavy attack either because the animation leaves him vulnerable just like @bewareofbears said. Combat stance is useless get rid of it. Bind the Block, Dodge and Heavy Attack mechanics to keys/buttons instead.

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"Git gud the game is perfectly balanced, there's no such of hit detection issue, Jason is op, learn how to be the lion, etc etc" that's just basically the dev response

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I hate that part 6 can't window fight as easily anymore...his weapon gets stuck on nothing -__-

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3 hours ago, bewareofbears said:

Combat stance for Jason should be removed and he should be able to block at any time.

Jason should always be deadly at close range and it should always be a risk to attempt to combat Jason.

Jason needs to be able to reliably hit a counselor going through a window. The invisible barrier needs to be removed.

Stun times should be shortened for Jason when a counselor uses a pocketknife or is freed by another counselor. Firecrackers should not be able to interrupt a grab kill.

I agree with everything here, other than the stun time which I do think is short enough. 

3 hours ago, bewareofbears said:
  • If Jason grabs a counselor, he can be stunned while doing so and enter a second animation of him being stuned
  • Breaking down a door, Jason can be stunned immediately after the door breaks because he has to follow through with the animation- again locking him in a stunned animation

Never grab a counselor if there is even one armed team mate in vicinity, and definitely never against groups.

Don't break down doors in default animation, always enter combat stance and either attack the door at a distance or block and counter attack. Never Rage through anything unless you're sure there's no counselor behind it.

3 hours ago, bewareofbears said:

The only way to ensure a kill is to melee strike and Jason's hit detection is horrendous right now, making the task's success based more on luck than skill. There are Jason's who can't hit a crouching counselor

Best way to help this situation is not to commit first as Jason. You need to bait counselors, evade their attacks (360 degree turns are good), then punish with free swing during their recovery frames and instantly move away to evade their counter. Rinse and repeat.

This is the optimal method in open space for 1v1 and groups, without using combat stance which is disadvantageous for anything other than constricted spaces, and without using canned animations against a moving target. Much easier to hit them when they're in recovery.

EDIT: Against known good teams, just use Part 3, or Part 4 if you're willing to trade Traps and Shift for Destruction. Running Jasons with +Weapon Strength are by far the best for combat, the bonus agility and bonus damage works wonders.

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Had one funny game last night. Four counselors were fixng the car and when I arrived (part3 Jason) everyone crouched at once. I could'nt hit anyone, all melee strikes flew by without contact, and when I grabbed someone another stunned me. Fortunately I had a few knives with which I got them spreadout eventually. Didn't last long but it seriously pissed me off.

So yeah, I think you should fix Jason's melee like pretty quick. Like a number one priority. Fuck Fox's shadow..

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I don't care for blocking as Jason. I like the idea of the combat stance where Jason can't grab but has a more dangerous melee.

This mechanic made sense until late October anyway.

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The Stun times seem pretty good at the moment. Like others have said, It is too easy to Stun him. Blocking as Jason feel ackward.  It is almost foolish to grab a counselor until they are wounded and moving slower, but then you grab, they knife, they heal ans sprint away VERY often. Slash/killing is boring, but just more reliable.


I wish Jason could make an AOE attack every so often. or had slightly more range animations, ability.

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8 hours ago, MichaelMemers said:

Stun times are basically nonexistent, the problem is how easy it is to stun him.

I agree that chain-stunning is where the problem begins. I don't see them toning down the ability to stun so my answer is to lessen the stun times.

7 hours ago, Aaron said:

I hate that part 6 can't window fight as easily anymore...his weapon gets stuck on nothing -__-

It's annoying as fuck. Another reason weapons should be interchangeable.

7 hours ago, Tommy86 said:

I agree with everything here, other than the stun time which I do think is short enough. 

Never grab a counselor if there is even one armed team mate in vicinity, and definitely never against groups.

Don't break down doors in default animation, always enter combat stance and either attack the door at a distance or block and counter attack. Never Rage through anything unless you're sure there's no counselor behind it.

Best way to help this situation is not to commit first as Jason. You need to bait counselors, evade their attacks (360 degree turns are good), then punish with free swing during their recovery frames and instantly move away to evade their counter. Rinse and repeat.

This is the optimal method in open space for 1v1 and groups, without using combat stance which is disadvantageous for anything other than constricted spaces, and without using canned animations against a moving target. Much easier to hit them when they're in recovery.

EDIT: Against known good teams, just use Part 3, or Part 4 if you're willing to trade Traps and Shift for Destruction. Running Jasons with +Weapon Strength are by far the best for combat, the bonus agility and bonus damage works wonders.

Swinging at groups is too unreliable because of the hit detection. If Jason enters combat stance to fend off a group, he auto targets a random counselor and just ends up getting stunned.

Combat stance for door is also unreliable as Jason has a brief moment where he can do nothing after blocking. I view stunning Jason coming through the door right now as an exploit as it's a free hit/stun. Jason gets no free hits.

I think your suggestions are good but combating a counselor one-on-one is overly complicated with the hit detection issues. Some folks have managed to adjust to it's brokenness but I have several months of muscle memory that won't allow me to completely overhaul my playstyle to accommodate for broken mechanics.

I agree that Part 3 or 4 is the way to go right now, particularly against skilled groups.

5 hours ago, lasse_hei said:

Had one funny game last night. Four counselors were fixng the car and when I arrived (part3 Jason) everyone crouched at once. I could'nt hit anyone, all melee strikes flew by without contact, and when I grabbed someone another stunned me. Fortunately I had a few knives with which I got them spreadout eventually. Didn't last long but it seriously pissed me off.

So yeah, I think you should fix Jason's melee like pretty quick. Like a number one priority. Fuck Fox's shadow..

That blows. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

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Jason certainly could use some melee augmentation. His ability to defend himself and press the attack is somewhat hobbled. The meta of using +Weapon Strength Jasons is a result of people compensating for an over-abundance of counselor defensive items (and thick skin before it was nerfed). Many folks are focusing on dealing raw damage to beat the counselors into submission.

This was not the early meta for the game. Months ago, most people did not put much emphasis on weapon strength (+Destruction was preferred and +Shift still is). As more and more people got Epic Thick Skinned with broken levels of damage reduction, the meta began to shift (this was stalled by the nerf to the perk). The increases in defensive items helped shift the mindset even more. Now with the grab reduction and trap changes, we see it as the preferred approach by many Jason players. Unfortunately, melee has bad hit detection.... Jason has steadily been climbing an uphill battle in the metagame-shift. Not sure how Gun/Illfonic are going to approach balance issues in the patch after this current one incoming, but I'll be interested what their "perceived" sticking points are based on reading what everyone is saying; plus their metadata on the back end.:huh:

0047.gif

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5 hours ago, bewareofbears said:

Swinging at groups is too unreliable because of the hit detection. If Jason enters combat stance to fend off a group, he auto targets a random counselor and just ends up getting stunned.

The only time I really have issues with hit detection as Jason is if I have lag. IMO the problem is more to do with using canned animations against a moving target as I mentioned, which would be solved if Jason could simply free swing while moving. Other than that you also have to deal with counselors ducking to evade the swing.

That's why the method I use relies on the counselor committing first because once they whiff, they are now at the disadvantage. So the game becomes how well you can bait them into that. Against average groups you don't even need to, typically they will just wildly swing at you of their own accord so all you have to do is keep evading and counter at the best moment. What separates the good counselors from the bad is how calculated they are in their approach, which makes it more difficult.

5 hours ago, bewareofbears said:

Combat stance for door is also unreliable as Jason has a brief moment where he can do nothing after blocking. I view stunning Jason coming through the door right now as an exploit as it's a free hit/stun. Jason gets no free hits.

Yes try to avoid block right now. I mentioned that as an option but only once it's working again and doesn't prevent executing attack after you block. 

I'll try to explain door combat here to clear up any confusion about it. The only time a counselor gets a free hit on Jason when he's breaking down a door is if Jason is using the canned animation to do it. That's both during the door breaking and right after it. As soon as Jason's in combat stance however, not even to block but simply to attack, it stops being a free hit because the Jason player can now control their spacing, timing and angle of attack to prevent being hit. In this scenario, the counselor can now also be hit after they whiff an attack on you. It just becomes a normal 1v1 but simply with a door in between, with no free hits on either side.

5 hours ago, bewareofbears said:

I think your suggestions are good but combating a counselor one-on-one is overly complicated with the hit detection issues. Some folks have managed to adjust to it's brokenness but I have several months of muscle memory that won't allow me to completely overhaul my playstyle to accommodate for broken mechanics.

I agree that Part 3 or 4 is the way to go right now, particularly against skilled groups.

The main thing players need to do in order to adapt is to play defensively as Jason in combat, rather than aggressively. Place all focus on his mobility, because the only thing he needs to do against groups is keep moving. Constantly. Once you are able to avoid all attacks reliably, then you can focus on timing to punish the whiffed attacks. A counselor in recovery frames cannot dodge, duck or block so you are more likely to hit them. 

To be honest, the way I've outlined is not an elegant solution. It looks quite goofy, because essentially you are constantly moving out the way of counselor attacks or constantly doing 360 degree turns, hitting the counselor in their most vulnerable moment then immediately moving away to evade their counter. Especially when you're dealing against groups where you also have to dodge firecrackers and projectiles. But it works. It's the best solution for now until Gun accepts how vulnerable Jason is in combat and decide to fix him.

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I wish P6 Jason would do a wide melee swing instead of an overhead.  Its slow and can hit things above you causing a miss.  His combat stance is extremely unreliable against a counselor even 1vs1 unless its behind a door.  Might be asking too much since he has extra range.

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13 minutes ago, IronCatFish said:

I wish P6 Jason would do a wide melee swing instead of an overhead.  Its slow and can hit things above you causing a miss.  His combat stance is extremely unreliable against a counselor even 1vs1 unless its behind a door.  Might be asking too much since he has extra range.

The main problem with Part 6 and Savini's weapons is the possibility that they will get stuck in something, even thin air. So while the long range is excellent for causing damage at a safer distance, and the speed penalty can be mitigated with better precision / timing, their weapons are ultimately a disadvantage due to a bug.

They work really well in combat stance, however due to another bug which randomly prevents you from attacking immediately after blocking, they can't be reliably used in this way either.

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Just now, Tommy86 said:

The main problem with Part 6 and Savini's weapons is the possibility that they will get stuck in something, even thin air. So while the long range is excellent for causing damage at a safer distance, and the speed penalty can be mitigated with better precision / timing, their weapons are ultimately a disadvantage due to a bug.

They work really well in combat stance, however due to another bug which randomly prevents you from attacking immediately after blocking, they can't be reliably used in this way either.

I hit someone with a knife running towards me in attempt to hit me so another player could start the car.  My plan was knife, then melee to cripple him so he couldn't make it to the car.  However, when I tried to swing after my knife hit, the spear hit thin air canceling my hit.  We were both aside with nothing around us. 

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11 minutes ago, IronCatFish said:

I hit someone with a knife running towards me in attempt to hit me so another player could start the car.  My plan was knife, then melee to cripple him so he couldn't make it to the car.  However, when I tried to swing after my knife hit, the spear hit thin air canceling my hit.  We were both aside with nothing around us. 

I don't doubt you. Those weapons do have serious issues, can hit just about anything but the counselor, even air. That may or may not result in consequences, you just don't know until it happens. That's why I try not to use anything other than guaranteed options in the game, and long range weapons and combat stance (outside of special exceptions) are currently not in that category. Otherwise I'm just subjecting myself to possible bugs.

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20 hours ago, bewareofbears said:

Jason is bound, or locked into, lengthy animations no matter what he does and is almost always vulnerable because of it. Examples:

  • If Jason grabs a counselor, he can be stunned while doing so and enter a second animation of him being stuned
  • Breaking down a door, Jason can be stunned immediately after the door breaks because he has to follow through with the animation- again locking him in a stunned animation

This is why Jason's melee strikes are so important and why Jason is more or less screwed at close range lately: Jason is easily stunned and far from deadly if you're near him. There are no guaranteed kills with a grab due to being stunned. The only way to ensure a kill is to melee strike and Jason's hit detection is horrendous right now, making the task's success based more on luck than skill. There are Jason's who can't hit a crouching counselor.

Combat stance for Jason should be removed and he should be able to block at any time.

Jason should always be deadly at close range and it should always be a risk to attempt to combat Jason.

Jason needs to be able to reliably hit a counselor going through a window. The invisible barrier needs to be removed.

Stun times should be shortened for Jason when a counselor uses a pocketknife or is freed by another counselor. Firecrackers should not be able to interrupt a grab kill.

I'm not saying these are all great ideas but something needs to be done- particularly to allow Jason to effectively defend himself at close range. Stun times are too lengthy and there is no penalty for counselors gaining up on Jason. The most important change, other than fixing his broken grab, is making his melee strikes actually do what they're supposed to do.

If you agree or disagree, feel free to say so. Make constructive suggestions if you have any.

@ShiftySamurai @[IllFonic]Courier

Good post Bears. I think in part this is a side effect of them removing the ability for councilors to damage each other. When they tried to gang up on Jason in the past they would end up beating the crap out of each other. That was one piece of deterrent. You made some good points on the rest. The animations have been an issue against very well coordinated groups. The ones that communicate well and stick together do a good job of stun locking Jason and making sure anything he does results in a stun shot to the hockey mask. I played against a group last night very good teamwork. Just about every hit on Jason 4 ended up being a knockdown stun save maybe 2. I grab one I got stunned, I swing and hit or miss, I got stunned. They knew how to work the animations to efficient effect.

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Firecrackers can't interrupt kills, nothing can. You mean to say firecrackers shouldn't work when jason has grabbed someone. I disagree. It negates those "clutch" moments when you just barely save yourself or a teammate.

Instead of removing combat stance, allow Jason to grab in combat stance. Change block to a different button or say holding block and press attack to grab.

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2 hours ago, Tommy86 said:

The main problem with Part 6 and Savini's weapons is the possibility that they will get stuck in something, even thin air.

No, no, that can't be true. Savini is OP, you see.

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You can immediately attack or grab after blocking when in combat stance. Play with Jason does this all the time and I still don't know why people couldn't figure it out yet.

 

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They should go a similar route to the TV series and just remove Jason all together at this point.

5 hours ago, Tommy86 said:

The main thing players need to do in order to adapt is to play defensively as Jason in combat, rather than aggressively.

That is the exact opposite of what Jason is about.

Let history be a lesson....if you fuck with the main character too much, expect the product to be a failure.  

 

What else can we add to the list of what Jason never had to do before? 

Why don't they add a little tool kit to his belt, so instead of breaking the fixed phone box, he has to break out his spectacles and his little screwdrivers and does a QTE to stop the cops.

And instead of Jason standing in the shack at the beginning of his rounds, he should be sitting down, reading the newspaper. 

 

It has nothing to do with having success in the game, it has to do with him being Jason motherfucking Voorhees, and being properly represented as such. 

I wish Ben would've used the incommunicado method when it came to their opinion of how Jason plays. I'll be surprised if their tune doesn't change, but if not...the single player is here to save the day.

4189741-cyborg_superman_icon_by_jeremyma

The "S" stands for Single Player.

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27 minutes ago, WashingtonJones said:

That is the exact opposite of what Jason is about.

Let history be a lesson....if you fuck with the main character too much, expect the product to be a failure.  

I agree, it is a shame but that has proven to be the best technique in my experience. It does however totally misrepresent Jason if at his best he is in a defensive rather than offensive role. And it's no wonder it has has turned out this way given his actual lack of effective offence.

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23 minutes ago, Tommy86 said:

I agree, it is a shame but that has proven to be the best technique in my experience. It does however totally misrepresent Jason if at his best he is in a defensive rather than offensive role.

I'm not against what you're saying. You're 100% right, and it works and I'm successful with it too, but it does not feel like I'm Jason, and that is the most important thing for me in this game. That is probably the most important thing to the 1.9 million of the 2 million people that bought this (and stopped playing it). 

I've said it before, this game might have worked better as the generic SummerCamp with a no frills original killer, if he was to be in the devs intended current state as Jason is.  

@GunMedia_Ben please stop giving Jason the "Man of Steel" treatment. (or the inverse of, i'm on a Superman kick right now)

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