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[IllFonic]Courier

The Implementation of the ‘Repair Part Icons’

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At least I didn't waste my time, then.

Why do you think host quits are on the back burner? Dedicated servers have been worked on for months now. I appreciate they're not out yet, but it's not being put on some dusty shelf with no-one working on it.

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13 minutes ago, DamonD7 said:

At least I didn't waste my time, then.

Why do you think host quits are on the back burner? Dedicated servers have been worked on for months now. I appreciate they're not out yet, but it's not being put on some dusty shelf with no-one working on it.

I guess that's fair.

I understand dedicated servers are a big ask, but with them not being in the next update, and the one after presumable being the end of January at the earliest, that's 7 months minimum post-release. There has to come a time when it becomes an unacceptable amount of time. When that is though is subjective I guess.

There's no excuse for the amount of bugs and connection errors remaining though, and the amount that keep getting introduced. They ruin the game far more than balance changes that nobody I knew asked for or actually enjoys.

I understand that the art and design and QA teams are all different departments, but it's not good optics to be churning out glib content nobody asked for like the emotes and costumes for money, and tinkering with unrequested balance changes, while basic technical elements have consistently struggled to function properly, and actually promised and expected content from as long ago as the Kickstarter keeps getting the "soon" treatment.

The perception just ends up that their priorities are completely fucked up.

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It's the hard balancing act between fixing existing things and introducing new content. I'm sure we could both easily think of all the times when their posting of any kind of news is met instead with "OMG fix your fucking game!" replies instead (especially on Twitter and Facebook). Yet at the same time other people also really want new stuff, they'll say things are stale and they're bored.

I would personally like to see all the existing issues fixed before new content was added. But I know that would drive some people, here and elsewhere, absolutely crazy.
That would still be my own choice, though. And even saying that, the people working on the new content aren't the same as those working on the technical issues, so I guess it's always going to be a battle.

The one thing I'd actually like, more than anything, is an expedited certification process. Maybe I'll ask Santa.

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I may have an unrealistic concept of the development process, but I just think that for a game to be still broken in a number of large ways 6 months after release is unacceptable.

This stuff shouldn't have been in the final release. Their QA should have been working round the clock to fix things, and when it came to the realisation that they weren't up to the job (after failing to fix a bunch of things and introducing many more bugs) they should have brought in experienced hired guns to fix it.

When you've sold millions of copies, and are working with the most utilised engine in the entire industry, there's no reason that these things could not be fixed in a very short period of time to my mind other than not wanting to spend the money on it. It's not an insurmountable task for a poor little indie studio. It's a question of will and priority for a multi-million copy selling studio. And the bottom line has come before the experience of the people who padded that bottom line. Hence why I get so annoyed when they talk about 'quality of life' experiences, like our quality of life has actually mattered to them in this regard.

I run a business, and if I promised a client a project which ended up broken on delivery, and it was beyond my ability to fix without screwing it up even more, to the degree I was keeping them waiting for months,  I would hire in someone who could fix it out of my own pocket. Especially if I'd made a lot more money than I expected from the client for the project.

Again, maybe I'm naive about these things, but I don't think so. The game is still buggy as hell after 6 months because that's the quality of work they're content with.

Lastly, my limited knowledge of the certification process is that if it takes a long time, it's usually because your code is being bounced back and having to rejoin the queue for being broken in some way, not because Sony or Microsoft are being opaque about things. It's almost always the fault of the developers missing things or being slipshod. It's essentially analogous to a teacher giving you your homework back because it's riddled with errors.

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3 hours ago, ZooMalfunction said:

The least they could do is provide the simple option in both QP and private to turn this off, and allow their customers the ability to still play the game they way they believed they'd always be able to...

@GunMedia_Ben Yes. Give us a hardcore mode. Call it Dead Play. So then we'll have the Quick and the Dead.

Start us off with the original grab and a proper melee attack for Jason, and no items on the map for counselors. I don't know if I'm leaving anything off. See how that goes for a bit and make adjustments as needed. What would be wrong with that?

11 hours ago, [IllFonic]Courier said:

...but that quickly loses its appeal and ultimately becomes a chore. [when playing as a counselor]

Right, but that got me thinking...what happens when Jason becomes a chore?

I don't have a problem with items on the map; I'm talking in general. As of right now, in QP on PC, it's about 60/40 in difficulty from lobby to lobby. Most of the time, most of the counselors are too clueless and reckless to survive. But the rest of the time, there's lobbies filled with players that know what they're doing, whether they're high or low level (actually, most of the lower level [40 and up] counselors have been giving me more trouble than 101s).

When that happens, the whole thing becomes a chore as Jason. To ensure that the entire lobby doesn't escape and that you don't get killed, there is so much tedious work and effort that has to be put in from the start, that it takes me out of it. I lose that vibe of being Jason. It can be exciting, and I can appreciate the efforts of good counselors, but it ultimately ends up feeling more and more like work than fun. This is only gonna increase as the clueless players start getting more and more of a clue. 

And low to mid level Jasons have no hope, even against their own levels. The only way those Jasons can get 3 or more kills is when the counselors taunt him at the cops. They haven't gotten that down yet. 

I could be wrong, but I would think, most people that want to play this game would want to be Jason more than not. And when all things are equal, Jason is far from the dominant force in this game right now. It should be more fun to be the star of the game, I would think.

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@WashingtonJones - that sums up the problem perfectly.

The game may flow more smoothly now with items on the map, but is it more fun? Not at all.

Playing as Jason is an absolute chore where you have to constantly sweat for 15 minutes. You always feel like you're at the mercy of the counselors, not vice versa.

They say searching for lost items quickly became a chore. Well I played about 1000 counselor matches pre-patch and it never once did. Within a week of the patch, my entire playgroup quit of of boredom and annoyance with marking.

Nobody I know other than trolls or boosters are having any fun at all.

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The repair part icon makes the game more fun.  Don’t listen to the complaints.  Sure, in an ideal world everyone would have mikes and would work together to publicize where the parts are that have been spotted.  But that ideal isn’t realistic to expect, and the icons are a great way to help keep people working on objectives.

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I can see why they want to force quick play as the game as it was 'meant to be played' while private match is the more customizable avenue.

Its because the minute they decide to add more customization to quick play...

1. You start to divide the playerbase even further

2. You'll see a lot of the inept only play whatever mode is easiest for counselor, versus whatever makes Jason more difficult aka a more hardcore mode would be avoided by certain types of players

I remember in Left 4 dead 2, they introduced realism, which introduced the removal of survivor glows so survivors couldn't see each other except by sight when pinned, they made the regular zombies tougher, the witch tougher. Guess what happened? The playerbase stayed away from realism and realism versus and they died. They stuck to regular campaign and regular versus, because glows, easier zombies, etc.

Now don't get me wrong, I want Jason fixed, I want the game to be harder for counselor, etc.

Yet once you start introducing more customization, especially any that favors Jason. Good luck filling quick play lobbies. Especially with all the nerfs/bugs to Jason now that make him a push over.

Examples

- Oh repair part icons are off?...eh...I'll just leave until I find a lobby that has it on

- Oh Jason's proximity music is off?....eh...I'll just leave until I find a lobby where its on

- Oh this lobby has all the options on so the game is 'the way it was meant to be played'?...I'll stick to this lobby

The purist element will absolutely prevent quick play customization from being a successful thing for the game. I've seen it before. Better to fix the the problems with Jason first, then go from there before you start introducing all kinds of options to quick play that will surely make lobby matchmaking even more difficult and with the playerbase the way it is. We really can't afford to be dividing it even further.

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9 hours ago, ZooMalfunction said:

There's a lot of people who enjoy feeling helpless and having to make clutch plays, as that's a core trope of survival horror.

There's a difference between "feeling" helpless and in actual fact BEING helpless. If a griefer or just random bad luck has in actual fact REMOVED the possibility for you to win by any means other than time-out, how is that fun?

Games should never have states of "guaranteed failure" and "guaranteed success." Any good game will always ride the line between success and failure for both teams. When one side has no reasonable means of success or failure, that's not fun. Right now, counselors are kind of at a guaranteed win state. At launch, Jason had a sort of guaranteed win state. The game needs to come to the comfortable middle ground.

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This just seems like they're going to take all the nerfs that ruined the game, think of a nice PR way to justify catering to bad players, and ignore the fact that they spit in the face of their base players.

That was made clear from Ben's responses the other day. "Jason is too OP? Okay guys, we'll change the game and neuter him for you and make it easier to be a counselor since you don't want to improve as a counselor."

"Oh, we neutered Jason, AND you have pointed out exactly what's wrong? Listen guys, just adapt. We can't change the game because you don't want to improve as Jason."

So yeah, they need a few days to figure out how to word everything without admitting to their core players that they don't give a shit about us.

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@[IllFonic]Courier- has there been any thought put in to changing the icon system up a bit? say using a generic icon (like a gear) instead of a specific item icon? and/or having the icon show up in the general vicinity of the item? 

this seems like a decent compromise. by using a generic icon, you're forcing players to weigh the pros and cons of traveling to a location, often across the map, to find the item they may or may not be looking for... and by having the icon appear in the general vicinity instead of the exact location, you're creating a bit more risk and "danger" by forcing players search a little which leaves them vulnerable.  

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1 hour ago, dmack621 said:

This just seems like they're going to take all the nerfs that ruined the game, think of a nice PR way to justify catering to bad players, and ignore the fact that they spit in the face of their base players.

That was made clear from Ben's responses the other day. "Jason is too OP? Okay guys, we'll change the game and neuter him for you and make it easier to be a counselor since you don't want to improve as a counselor."

"Oh, we neutered Jason, AND you have pointed out exactly what's wrong? Listen guys, just adapt. We can't change the game because you don't want to improve as Jason."

So yeah, they need a few days to figure out how to word everything without admitting to their core players that they don't give a shit about us.

Speak for yourself Dmack. For starters, people complained for the longest time that the devs weren't talking with us at all, and now that they do want to communicate you're passing it off as PR?

They obviously do care about us considering they implemented the park marking change. Trolls used to hide things in the forest to make sure objectives were never fixed, something that the playerbase hated as a whole because it was toxic gaming. All they need to do now is make it a toggle feature in PMs, and this will become a non-issue.

3 hours ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

There's a difference between "feeling" helpless and in actual fact BEING helpless. If a griefer or just random bad luck has in actual fact REMOVED the possibility for you to win by any means other than time-out, how is that fun?

Games should never have states of "guaranteed failure" and "guaranteed success." Any good game will always ride the line between success and failure for both teams. When one side has no reasonable means of success or failure, that's not fun. Right now, counselors are kind of at a guaranteed win state. At launch, Jason had a sort of guaranteed win state. The game needs to come to the comfortable middle ground.

Agreed 100%. While hard games to me are fun, I also recognize that "harder" doesn't always mean "more fun." You could have a group of people playing chess on a boat in the middle of the ocean that has been set on fire, something that definitely amps up the challenge, but that doesn't make it more fun.

People who thump difficulty need to remember that if the game reaches points where it becomes nigh impossible for counselors to win, they might decide to spite Jason by trolling him. That way, at the very least they can make Jason's victory as sour as possible.

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1 hour ago, dmack621 said:

That was made clear from Ben's responses the other day.

Agree. His post was just a "Git Gud"  to everyone who raised valid point about balance and Jason. 

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7 hours ago, WashingtonJones said:

@GunMedia_Ben Yes. Give us a hardcore mode. Call it Dead Play. So then we'll have the Quick and the Dead.

Start us off with the original grab and a proper melee attack for Jason, and no items on the map for counselors. I don't know if I'm leaving anything off. See how that goes for a bit and make adjustments as needed. What would be wrong with that?

Right, but that got me thinking...what happens when Jason becomes a chore?

I don't have a problem with items on the map; I'm talking in general. As of right now, in QP on PC, it's about 60/40 in difficulty from lobby to lobby. Most of the time, most of the counselors are too clueless and reckless to survive. But the rest of the time, there's lobbies filled with players that know what they're doing, whether they're high or low level (actually, most of the lower level [40 and up] counselors have been giving me more trouble than 101s).

When that happens, the whole thing becomes a chore as Jason. To ensure that the entire lobby doesn't escape and that you don't get killed, there is so much tedious work and effort that has to be put in from the start, that it takes me out of it. I lose that vibe of being Jason. It can be exciting, and I can appreciate the efforts of good counselors, but it ultimately ends up feeling more and more like work than fun. This is only gonna increase as the clueless players start getting more and more of a clue. 

And low to mid level Jasons have no hope, even against their own levels. The only way those Jasons can get 3 or more kills is when the counselors taunt him at the cops. They haven't gotten that down yet. 

I could be wrong, but I would think, most people that want to play this game would want to be Jason more than not. And when all things are equal, Jason is far from the dominant force in this game right now. It should be more fun to be the star of the game, I would think.

Yes because people leave already when they aren't Jason in quickplay so lets just make a mode where he is on steroids, surely no one will leave when they aren't Jason in that game mode.

Jason is only a chore if you think just because you were chosen to be him that a 8/8 should be handed to you. If you can't find fun in every game not playing out the exact same then just wait for offline bots where I'm sure every game will be a breeze.

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3 hours ago, Jawbone said:

Jason is only a chore if you think just because you were chosen to be him that a 8/8 should be handed to you. If you can't find fun in every game not playing out the exact same then just wait for offline bots where I'm sure every game will be a breeze.

No. You don't get it.

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5 hours ago, Jawbone said:

Jason is only a chore if you think just because you were chosen to be him that a 8/8 should be handed to you.

Since last patch I'm finding Jason to be a chore since I get tired of being trolled and my tactics being ineffective. Pocketknives make grabs worthless, Health spray+medic make slashing, bear traps, throwing knives and broken windows minor annoyances, and parts on the map/small maps mean the vehicles or phone are getting put together fast. 

I think good players should be able to go 8/8, particularly when luck favors them (parts are not found, objectives close together, etc) and get half a lobby or more on average. Obviously if luck favors the counselors (finding parts fast, spread out objectives, etc) that number may decrease. 

I suppose if the big bad killer can't threaten a lobby, why bother? If a good Jason might get a kill or two, it's obviously not a balanced game. When nobody wants to be Jason, that's a death knell, as is when Ben is saying "It's not us, it's you." Ignoring the problem isn't making it go away. An F13 game where nobody wants to be Jason isn't go to be around long. 

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14 minutes ago, Risinggrave said:

Since last patch I'm finding Jason to be a chore since I get tired of being trolled and my tactics being ineffective. Pocketknives make grabs worthless, Health spray+medic make slashing, bear traps, throwing knives and broken windows minor annoyances, and parts on the map/small maps mean the vehicles or phone are getting put together fast. 

I think good players should be able to go 8/8, particularly when luck favors them (parts are not found, objectives close together, etc) and get half a lobby or more on average. Obviously if luck favors the counselors (finding parts fast, spread out objectives, etc) that number may decrease. 

I suppose if the big bad killer can't threaten a lobby, why bother? If a good Jason might get a kill or two, it's obviously not a balanced game. When nobody wants to be Jason, that's a death knell, as is when Ben is saying "It's not us, it's you." Ignoring the problem isn't making it go away. An F13 game where nobody wants to be Jason isn't go to be around long. 

Barring broken windows and maybe item marking(since dropping items by the cars was extremely common) being different none of these problems you are talking about have just magically appeared out of nowhere. Pocketknives have always been in the game but now people complain because counselors aren't getting instantly caught and in effect wasting them. Medic wasn't even needed beforehand when thickskin was much stronger and luck affected trap damage and you could tank 4 traps without needing to heal.

You don't mind that map layout has such a large impact on the outcomes of the game? I think that is one design that needs an overhaul before we try balancing around worst case scenarios. Any single area should have the ability for an objective to spawn at it because currently there is only 4 general layouts for each map and that has a large impact on game speed.

See this is the problem with asymmetrical games, people see the need for one side or the other to massively dominate the field. Calling back to DbD again the devs had to step in and create a whole new scoring system for the killer so even if they played well but didn't completely wipe out the other side they would still get a win. Maybe we need the devs of this game to step in and do something similar so people won't see a 3/8 or a 4/8 as a loss. The tedium or chore like problem people perceive is here to stay because more and more people understand what does and doesn't work now.

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18 minutes ago, Jawbone said:

Maybe we need the devs of this game to step in and do something similar so people won't see a 3/8 or a 4/8 as a loss.

Or make it so dying as a counselor doesn't seem like such a loss. Nobody gives a shit about counselors in the grand scheme of things. And I don't give two flying fucks about the commonalities of asymmetrical horror games. This is a Friday the 13th game and that should be the main focus. 

Dominance shouldn't massively be on Jason's side, but it needs to be there enough. And it should never be on the side of the counselors. You must pay respect to the franchise and its fans.

And if that's not to be the case, then this should have stayed as a generic SummerCamp slasher game.    

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10 hours ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

There's a difference between "feeling" helpless and in actual fact BEING helpless. If a griefer or just random bad luck has in actual fact REMOVED the possibility for you to win by any means other than time-out, how is that fun?

Games should never have states of "guaranteed failure" and "guaranteed success." Any good game will always ride the line between success and failure for both teams. When one side has no reasonable means of success or failure, that's not fun. Right now, counselors are kind of at a guaranteed win state. At launch, Jason had a sort of guaranteed win state. The game needs to come to the comfortable middle ground.

If you were helpless and "guaranteed" failure before the October patch, man you must suck at this game and TRULY needed shit handed to you.

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6 minutes ago, dmack621 said:

If you were helpless and "guaranteed" failure before the October patch, man you must suck at this game and TRULY needed shit handed to you.

Yeah, Jason was completely destroyed by skilled, coordinated players even before the last update. The update just made it even easier.

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10 minutes ago, WashingtonJones said:

Or make it so dying as a counselor doesn't seem like such a loss. Nobody gives a shit about counselors in the grand scheme of things. And I don't give two flying fucks about the commonalities of asymmetrical horror games. This is a Friday the 13th game and that should be the main focus. 

Dominance shouldn't massively be on Jason's side, but it needs to be there enough. And it should never be on the side of the counselors. You must pay respect to the franchise and its fans.

And if that's not to be the case, then this should have stayed as a generic SummerCamp slasher game.    

People have been asking not to have to wait 10-15 mins for the largest amount of XP gain and nothing has come of it yet.  Except most of your time in the game will be spent as a counselor is if that is incredibly unenjoyable no one will stay.

Lets be real here, the fans of this franchise came up incredibly short of what the game devs were asking so you get about as much as was spent.

If I recall correctly Cunningham came to them and gave them the license so you can go yell at him about ruining his own franchise.

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1 minute ago, MichaelMemers said:

Yeah, Jason was completely destroyed by skilled, coordinated players even before the last update. The update just made it even easier.

Well, I mean ... we're supposed to believe that nobody at all was surviving before the October patch. Counselors were "guaranteed" failure. Huh, I guess all those people with their trophies and badges as counselors were just an anomaly. 

We're also supposed to believe that everything is fine now. Which, it probably is for piss poor players who needed the game adjusted to compensate their lack of skill, or unwillingness to learn/cooperate as a team.

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4 minutes ago, dmack621 said:

Well, I mean ... we're supposed to believe that nobody at all was surviving before the October patch. Counselors were "guaranteed" failure. Huh, I guess all those people with their trophies and badges as counselors were just an anomaly. 

We're also supposed to believe that everything is fine now. Which, it probably is for piss poor players who needed the game adjusted to compensate their lack of skill, or unwillingness to learn/cooperate as a team.

The game is being balanced around solo-queue AJ players who think stealth is a thing, instead of the Chads and Vanessas that eat Jason for breakfast. The game is basically two games, the slow counselor game and the fast counselor game. It used to be balanced around the fast counselor game, presumably with the false belief that slow counselors could actually hide. Now it's being balanced around slow counselor chases and they're just trying to ignore that Vanessa is basically invincible now when played properly.

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42 minutes ago, Jawbone said:

People have been asking not to have to wait 10-15 mins for the largest amount of XP gain and nothing has come of it yet.  Except most of your time in the game will be spent as a counselor is if that is incredibly unenjoyable no one will stay.

Saying no one will stay is not the best argument right now seeing as almost no one is playing anymore, even with it being easy for counselors. 

Reduce Jason in the equation and you end up with Part 5 and Part 9, the two least liked movies in the series.

42 minutes ago, Jawbone said:

If I recall correctly Cunningham came to them and gave them the license so you can go yell at him about ruining his own franchise.

I wouldn't be surprised if the only thing Sean Cunningham knows (or cares) about this game is what his accountant tells him. 

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19 minutes ago, WashingtonJones said:

Saying no one will stay is not the best argument right now seeing as almost no one is playing anymore, even with it being easy for counselors. 

Reduce Jason in the equation and you end up with Part 5 and Part 9, the two least liked movies in the series.

I wouldn't be surprised if the only thing Sean Cunningham knows (or cares) about this game is what his accountant tells him. 

If I was over reactionary as most people I would say everyone left before the grab change so it doesn't really matter.

The best thing to do is not get too personally invested in the game as we have no control over it and if it gets to the point where you can't stand to play it

 

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