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[IllFonic]Courier

The Implementation of the ‘Repair Part Icons’

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Repair Part Icons were introduced in order to combat how awful it was when a single objective item was lost in a random location and an entire win condition would become permanently inaccessible as a result. These occurrences encouraged players to adapt to a playstyle where they felt it was necessary to search aimlessly through the empty woods, scavenged cabins, and borders of the map for a small chance at finding an item that may or may not even be obtainable. This scenario would occur frequently and due to a number of different circumstances:

  • A new player is lost with no idea where to go and is killed in some random part of the woods
  • A griefer decides to hide an item in an out of the way location or drop it in the water and have the item respawn system do their work for them
  • A player disconnects and drops their items in a remote location
  • A player does not realize that the room they are in can become inaccessible and swaps out a repair part for another item
  • Jason finds a part on the ground and covers it with a trap, effectively making smaller parts like car keys invisible

There are many other similar situations that are not listed here, but the result remains the same regardless of the player's intent. Spending half the game searching through the woods with the slim hopes of finding your only chance of escaping is admittedly a scenario that was able to bring tension and a sense of urgency for some players, but that quickly loses its appeal and ultimately becomes a chore. We recognize that immersion is a very important element and our goals to create a proper atmosphere for the game have not changed. At the end of the day, the fact remains that this is a multiplayer game and should be balanced and designed as such.

We introduced the Repair Part Icons as a Quality of Life change, and we were very aware that it would affect balance. However, we believed the change was important for the state of the game and the impact it would have on balance (on its own) would be minor and manageable. We still stand by this belief and currently have no plans to remove the Repair Part Icons from the game. Whether it’s something that could be toggleable in the future for private matches or not is still unknown at this time, but we are looking into it.

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But griefers never bothered to hide items before the change because they got zero satisfaction when no one would even know they were doing it!

Nothing is ever as black and white as the statement above. The line of thought that believes every griefer has the same intent and requires the same result for gratification is flawed. Griefers may refer to a number of different types of players. Some players may engage in the activity as retaliation against another player for whatever reason. Other griefers may be playing the game with the intent to ruin the gaming experience of others for their own satisfaction. There are some that simply like watching other players become frustrated, feeling content with the knowledge that they caused it from behind the scenes. Anyone who has engaged in any activity that we define as griefing, regardless of frequency, is a griefer for that match. 

TL;DR - It did happen and often enough that it needed to be addressed.

Griefers are still able to hide items in rooms that could become inaccessible

We’re looking into a few possible solutions (such as terrain changes, remapping problematic buildings, etc.) that would resolve this issue. It’s a simple problem, but a proper fix that does not negatively affect balance is much more complicated.

Did the introduction of the Repair Part Icons cause teamplay to be less important?

Do we believe that Repair Part Icons are causing players to disregard teamwork in favor of solo play? 
The short answer is no. We do not currently believe that Repair Part Icons reduced the overall amount of teamplay. 

We agree that teamwork is important and is a staple for a game where one player is significantly stronger than the seven other players on their own. That said, we believe that Repair Part Icons actually encourage teamplay for the same reason that the map and objectives display interface were originally designed for.  With these systems, players are able to clearly figure out their goals for the match and how to achieve them with other players. Repair Part Icons improves the state of the game for those who do not own microphones and for those who have to communicate with them. We do not agree with the belief that players should be punished for not owning an optional peripheral to communicate. However, communication is something we would like to encourage and we are looking into ways to incentivise it


The topic for the next dev “balance” post will be about the recent removal of “trap stacking”

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Thank you for taking the time to clarify the thought behind the change. It seems like you're hinting about making this into a little series. I think that's a great idea.

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Don't forget when a new player or someone without a mic leaves in the car or boat with a part and it washes WHERE on the shore?!

Remove repair icons in PRIVATE lobbies.  Problem solved.

Public lobbies can be a clusterF of confusion wildly out of proportion.  The repair icons help alleviate the delusion.

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55 minutes ago, [IllFonic]Courier said:

We still stand by this belief and currently have no plans to remove the Repair Part Icons from the game.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. One of the most useful features of the game. 

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to tell you the truth i liked the old way better and should be reverted for both public and private 

Edited by pioneer67fkd
add on

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1 hour ago, [IllFonic]Courier said:

Repair Part Icons were introduced in order to combat how awful it was when a single objective item was lost in a random location and an entire win condition would become permanently inaccessible as a result. These occurrences encouraged players to adapt to a playstyle where they felt it was necessary to search aimlessly through the empty woods, scavenged cabins, and borders of the map for a small chance at finding an item that may or may not even be obtainable. This scenario would occur frequently and due to a number of different circumstances:

  • A new player is lost with no idea where to go and is killed in some random part of the woods
  • A griefer decides to hide an item in an out of the way location or drop it in the water and have the item respawn system do their work for them
  • A player disconnects and drops their items in a remote location
  • A player does not realize that the room they are in can become inaccessible and swaps out a repair part for another item
  • Jason finds a part on the ground and covers it with a trap, effectively making smaller parts like car keys invisible

 

For reasons such as these, I get the implementation. 

1 hour ago, [IllFonic]Courier said:

There are many other similar situations that are not listed here, but the result remains the same regardless of the player's intent. Spending half the game searching through the woods with the slim hopes of finding your only chance of escaping is admittedly a scenario that was able to bring tension and a sense of urgency for some players, but that quickly loses its appeal and ultimately becomes a chore. We recognize that immersion is a very important element and our goals to create a proper atmosphere for the game have not changed. At the end of the day, the fact remains that this is a multiplayer game and should be balanced and designed as such.

We introduced the Repair Part Icons as a Quality of Life change, and we were very aware that it would affect balance. However, we believed the change was important for the state of the game and the impact it would have on balance (on its own) would be minor and manageable. We still stand by this belief and currently have no plans to remove the Repair Part Icons from the game. Whether it’s something that could be toggleable in the future for private matches or not is still unknown at this time, but we are looking into it.

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

I'd say that it's more tense than a chore. Does it suck to be that guy who gets left behind and you can't get things moving? Yup. Maybe a compromise would be parts show up when certain perimeters are met. Maybe being the last X amount of people on the map, or after a certain time limit. As it stands, unless Jason gets a hefty boost, this makes the counselors too powerful. I'm saying this as a guy who plays mostly in private matches where communication is a thing, and where I'll dip into quickplay when my people were not on. The parts icons make it so communication isn't needed, and having it available simply makes counselor teamwork a force of nature. I've bolded your comment about possibly making it toggleable. I think that would do the game a lot of favors. Giving the fanbase options isn't a bad thing, and that would in essence fix the issue

 

1 hour ago, [IllFonic]Courier said:

Griefers are still able to hide items in rooms that could become inaccessible

We’re looking into a few possible solutions (such as terrain changes, remapping problematic buildings, etc.) that would resolve this issue. It’s a simple problem, but a proper fix that does not negatively affect balance is much more complicated.

 

. Map overhauls to keep parts safe? Wow. No more fools blocking off the kitchen phone on Packanack. Interesting. 

1 hour ago, [IllFonic]Courier said:

Did the introduction of the Repair Part Icons cause teamplay to be less important?

Do we believe that Repair Part Icons are causing players to disregard teamwork in favor of solo play? 

The short answer is no. We do not currently believe that Repair Part Icons reduced the overall amount of teamplay. 

We agree that teamwork is important and is a staple for a game where one player is significantly stronger than the seven other players on their own. That said, we believe that Repair Part Icons actually encourage teamplay for the same reason that the map and objectives display interface were originally designed for.  With these systems, players are able to clearly figure out their goals for the match and how to achieve them with other players. Repair Part Icons improves the state of the game for those who do not own microphones and for those who have to communicate with them. We do not agree with the belief that players should be punished for not owning an optional peripheral to communicate. However, communication is something we would like to encourage and we are looking into ways to incentivise it


 

Yes. It's simple now to find a part, leave it and let a fast character pick it up and speed it to it's destination. Have a Lachoppa or Deb go fix it at their leisure. It's not that hard to get things done provided you have a map and can see the parts. Without having to use tactics like "Hey, I'm leaving the battery on the table in the cabin south of the main lodge." and risking things being lost in translation, it's a cinch to get things going. Now the tactics are all about trolling Jason since parts acquisition is so easy. So in that regard, communication is still important. Counselors need to know exactly when Jason morphs so they can fix the phone fuse, or tank a trap and heal up. 

While I don't believe players unwilling to talk using an optional peripheral (that comes with the console, so all but second hand buyers have one by default) need to be intentionally punished, neither should they be catered to. The game was created with the intention people were speaking. It's why proximity based chat was so important. Holding the hand of the lowest skilled player to the point it makes skilled players too coordinated hurts Jason. In Quickplay, which is generally far more casual, it's a fine system. But in lobbies of people who all speak, and who know the meta, Jason is getting his pants pulled down and spanked, game after game. 

I'll restate that simply making it optional in private or a feature only in quickplay will fix the issue.

Thanks for the thread, and it's a pleasure to finally interact with you, Courier. 

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lol...ok?

"Hey guys...the new patch is coming out soon. So let's clarify changes made in the last patch. We'll answer the questions about the current patch when we release the next one."

Dafuq is going on in that office?

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2 hours ago, [IllFonic]Courier said:

Whether it’s something that could be toggleable in the future for private matches or not is still unknown at this time, but we are looking into it.

When the team killing change was made, it was only made for public matches and left the exact same for private matches and the complains about team killing pretty much stopped. I honestly don't see why this couldn't have been handled the same way, add dropped objective items for public matches but leave private matches like it was before.

Nevertheless, toggleable options for the host in private matches to turn the objective items appearing on the map on or off, along with others like team killing on or off and possibly new ones like removing the counselors mini-map on or off, remove the Jason proximity music for everyone(pretty much like turning the game music off but this is forced for everyone within the lobby) on or off would go a long way in keeping the game fresh and more enjoyable. 

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1 hour ago, Risinggrave said:

I'll restate that simply making it optional in private or a feature only in quickplay will fix the issue.

Thanks for the thread, and it's a pleasure to finally interact with you, Courier. 

You got it, couldn't have said it better myself. Optional item marking in private with a toggle would be great, item marking in public doesn't bother me as Jason. They still have to take them and fix them, and I know where they're going so I do have an advantage there. In private, against my friends it's a different story. They're all pretty good, and coordinate well. With item marking most of us think it's too easy in private games, would be nice to toggle it off.

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2 minutes ago, j03audette said:

 

When the team killing change was made, it was only made for public matches and left the exact same for private matches and the complains about team killing pretty much stopped. I honestly don't see why this couldn't have been handled the same way, add dropped objective items for public matches but leave private matches like it was before.

Nevertheless, toggleable options for the host in private matches to turn the objective items appearing on the map on or off, along with others like team killing on or off and possibly new ones like removing the counselors mini-map on or off, remove the Jason proximity music for everyone(pretty much like turning the game music off but this is forced for everyone within the lobby) on or off would go a long way in keeping the game fresh and more enjoyable. 

Great ideas!

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There's a lot of people who enjoy feeling helpless and having to make clutch plays, as that's a core trope of survival horror. If I wanted a simplified objective mode, I'd play a different game. I would never have bought the game (or recommended it to friends) if this had been in from the start, so it's incredibly frustrating that you chose to drastically change the way the game plays without giving us the option to change things back.

Why can't you just make this toggleable for hosts for public matches too? We can choose the map. Why not the ruleset? Other games allow hardcore modes in both private and public. Simply class this as a hardcore mode, and give players the choice. Why restrict it to just one group? I understand you may be worried about splitting your playerbase if you put this option in public matches, but guess what? You already have. Only now, the game's split between people who play, and people who have no interest in playing anymore due to item marking.

Not everyone has 7 other people to play with, or want to play the game with people they know due to how quickly a metagame develops within a group, and how predictably games turn out. It's not great design to give private match players options that quick match players can't access like this. Especially when item marking impacts quick match far more than private, because a private match is more likely to have everyone communicating, meaning part location information is likely to be communicated regardless.

I, and everyone I play with (or used to, item marking made them all quit), loved the limited information and panic and stress of the game. I mean, genuinely loved it. For a bunch of jaded gamers in their late 30s, it was a rare experience that brought back the magic of online gaming for us. This isn't a simple balance change. It changes the entire dynamic of how the game plays. Communication and teamwork simply don't matter anymore. You turned a tactical game into an arcade action game. And for us, you ruined it. It's simply really unprofessional behaviour to impose this on your audience instead of giving them the choice of how they want to play the game, especially when they only dropped money on it due to how it existed in its previous state. It's arguably an immoral business practice.

I genuinely couldn't in good conscience buy another product from Gun again, or recommend one to friends, if the option to toggle marking isn't implemented in quick match as well as private. I'd have no confidence you wouldn't render my purchase obsolete with this kind of ridiculous unilateral decision making, as the game I spent £30 on simply doesn't exist anymore. You may as well have just deleted it from my hard drive.

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11 minutes ago, ZooMalfunction said:

You may as well have just deleted it from my hard drive.

You can still do that yourself.

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10 minutes ago, Jawbone said:

You can still do that yourself.

If they refund me the £30 they stole by changing the product I purchased beyond recognition, I happily will. I may even go and spend it on Dead By Daylight instead. It can't be worse than the current state of this game.

I always hear about how it's still got tons of players while this is basically dying, and I can see why. Still in a broken state 6 months after release, promised content releases way behind schedule, infrequent and late patches that keep failing ceritifaction due to shitty coding, and balance changes that wreck the entire selling point of the game.

Turns out when you treat your audience poorly, they abandon your game. Who would have thought?

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8 minutes ago, ZooMalfunction said:

If they refund me the £30 they stole by changing the product I purchased beyond recognition, I happily will. I may even go and spend it on Dead By Daylight instead. It can't be worse than the current state of this game.

I always hear about how it's still got tons of players while this is basically dying, and I can see why. Still in a broken state after 6 months, content releases way behind schedule, slow patches that keep failing ceritifaction due to shitty coding, and balance changes that wreck the entire selling point of the game.

Turns out when you treat your audience poorly, they leave. Who would have thought?

Take them to court if they stole your money. Otherwise they told you why the changes were made and thats the end of the story.

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I do feel like this update dumbed down the game considerably. I think the balance part would be to allow Jason to also see when a part has been dropped.

As is, it's an unfair advantage created because Illphonic and Gun are trying make the game more accessible to the inept.

@[IllFonic]Courier

Any chance you guys will ever answer the question of whether or not patches will eventually be streamlined or scheduled? I guess if it keeps getting ignored we have our answer, right?

@ZooMalfunction

Dead by Daylight is fun. It's similar but generally faster paced. I recommend it if you enjoying playing as a killer. I don't find being a survivor as much fun as hunting people. :) 

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2 hours ago, bewareofbears said:

I do feel like this update dumbed down the game considerably. I think the balance part would be to allow Jason to also see when a part has been dropped.

As is, it's an unfair advantage created because Illphonic and Gun are trying make the game more accessible to the inept.

@[IllFonic]Courier

Any chance you guys will ever answer the question of whether or not patches will eventually be streamlined or scheduled? I guess if it keeps getting ignored we have our answer, right?

@ZooMalfunction

Dead by Daylight is fun. It's similar but generally faster paced. I recommend it if you enjoying playing as a killer. I don't find being a survivor as much fun as hunting people. :) 

It doesn't seem like my kind of game, but I've basically given up on this now, as I was only continuing to play in the hope the patch gave some good news, so I may give it a shot.

It's a shame, as this game used to be great. It had an amazing license, and the experience felt authentic. Now they've just thrown the authenticity out the window simply to gamify the experience as much as possible for the expanded market, which of course includes the lazy and inept.

The least they could do is provide the simple option in both QP and private to turn this off, and allow their customers the ability to still play the game they way they believed they'd always be able to when they purchased it. but it seems they're commited to having this hill to die on for some bizarre reason. Imposing their vision of play on a game people bought because it was sold on being authentic to Sean Cunningham's vision from the films. I signed up for that vision, not Gun Media's dancing bunny hot take. If this was still Slasher Camp Vol. 1, I wouldn't have a problem. But I also likely would never have bought it either.

It feels like a bait-and-switch. We paid for Friday the 13th, but we're slowly creeping back to the Slasher Camp Vol. 1. vision more and more with each update, as the game just screams indie knock-off these days. If I was one of the rights holders, or respected members of the franchise who gave my time and name to make this as authentic as possible, I'd be fucking furious that some indie hacks are putting their underserved stamp all over my legacy of work.

Item marking, Jason nerfs, and the atmosphere-wrecking paid costumes and emotes, basically says to me they sold out. It no longer feels like a Friday the 13th game. Combined with the technical ineptitude of the developers regarding ever emerging bugs makes me never want to buy a Gun product again. I know my friends feel the same way too. I couldn't trust the game I paid good money for would even be the same experience 6 months down the line, or would even be in a working state.

At least DbD seems to be made by professionals. I'm sorry, but drastically changing the game 4 months in is just amazingly disrespectful to your original audience, and not being able to fix basic bugs without introducing new ones, or being anything close to on-schedule with promised content is just amatuer hour as far as I'm concerned. Devs, publishers - hang your heads in shame.

Do I sound unreasonably angry? Possibly. But when someone takes an experience that you've paid money for, and that you and your friends loved spending evenings together over, and unnecessarily and without warning destroy that, I feel anger is justified.  As customer, and a player. And I'm far from alone.

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1) Why somehow to change locations?
I offer you simple action.
  The player the holding accumulator or gas, automatically dumps him at an entrance to 1 room, i.e. things are scrammed at an entrance to such rooms.

 

2) And here other decision. It is simple to remove locks from these doors and all. That the player where room with 1 door couldn't just close them on the lock.

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@ZooMalfunction

I don't think you sound unreasonable.

As far as I know, PSN doesn't do refunds for anything unfortunately.

I agree with what you're saying. There was a point where they really seemed invested in creating an authentic Friday the 13th experience but threw it out the window for dancing emotes and Halloween costume cash grabs. Was it really worth it? They compromised what they built for maybe a few thousand bucks. That is the definition of selling out. But hey, they got vacations and fancy watches out of it.

The current gameplay feels incredibly dumbed down to benefit new players. The focus also appears to be on pleasing fans of playing dress up. The fact balance will not be addressed in the next patch is a slap in the face of the community.

On top of it, even some of the oldest and loudest white knights (YouTubers and streamers that mostly hung out in Discord) abandoned ship because even they felt the game was turning into a joke.

Dead by Daylight isn't for everyone but I enjoy it quite a bit. Maybe catch it on sale on Boxing Day or something. They had a free weekend on PS4 so I got to test-try it before I bought it and I was surprised by it. It honestly looks like shit to watch but is fun to play. As I said, especially as a killer. It has it's issues and shitty players but nothing like Friday the 13th.

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7 hours ago, [IllFonic]Courier said:

the impact it would have on balance (on its own) would be minor and manageable.

I honestly believe that you guys have no idea what balance is

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8 minutes ago, Blinckx said:

I honestly believe that you guys have no idea what balance is

They're correct on that point. The problem is that it isn't "on its own".

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2 minutes ago, MichaelMemers said:

They're correct on that point. The problem is that it isn't "on its own".

That was a MAJOR help to the counsellor, even if they call it QOL improvement ( and, to some degree maybe it is ) but you can't deny it was a boost to one side and, obviously a major nerf to the other side. You can not implement a QOL change like that  and say "it's just something minor and manageable" because it is not. Reduce the time a team spend looking for an item is a boost in a game where the time matter a lot,  allow the vision on the map of every single item in a game where search and discovery are a so important is a boost for the counsellor and so on. As said, they have no idea what balance is ( that's also why we're not going to see any balance change in the upcoming patch )

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5 minutes ago, Blinckx said:

That was a MAJOR help to the counsellor, even if they call it QOL improvement ( and, to some degree maybe it is ) but you can't deny it was a boost to one side and, obviously a major nerf to the other side. You can not implement a QOL change like that  and say "it's just something minor and manageable" because it is not. Reduce the time a team spend looking for an item is a boost in a game where the time matter a lot,  allow the vision on the map of every single item in a game where search and discovery are a so important is a boost for the counsellor and so on. As said, they have no idea what balance is ( that's also why we're not going to see any balance change in the upcoming patch )

Balance is not a vacuum. Being able to see everything on the map after someone else has picked them up would not be a huge deal if they hadn't be neutering Jason left and right.

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In a perfect world where trolls didn't exist, we could make do without part marking. But with a community like ours, it became necessary. Honestly, the only thing that's needed at this point is the abliity to toggle it off in private matches.

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9 hours ago, [IllFonic]Courier said:
  • Jason finds a part on the ground and covers it with a trap, effectively making smaller parts like car keys invisible

...I'm almost disappointed I didn't think of doing this, pre-patch.

This item marking from the last patch was the biggest thing I was unsure about and concerned would be too powerful. When I played a whole bunch of games after, I found it did speed up the mid-to-late game as a counselor but was actually not a big deal for me as a Jason player as I worried. If anything it meant I tended to keep an eye on dropped part locations more than I did before, or even trap one if I had a trap spare.

It also meant, as a counselor, if I was being killed when carrying something I didn't have to try to rush out the location over the mic mid-decapitation or similar.

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9 minutes ago, DamonD7 said:

...I'm almost disappointed I didn't think of doing this, pre-patch.

It never really worked, as items all have a circle around them identifying something is near.

I've seen it happen before (rarely), and nobody fell for it. If anything, it just highlighted the location from a distance by seeing a giant trap in an incongruous location. Once you came to look at it, the fact an item was under it was highlighted by the HUD.

You can even pick the item up from quite a distance, so it never triggers the trap, making it just a waste of a trap - hence why it was unpopular.

It's like the phantom item hiding. We're told these things are major, game-breaking problems, despite nobody ever seemingly having encountered them more than once or twice in literally a thousand or more matches. It just feels more and more to me that item marking is a pet project of someone on the dev team, and any possible reasons are grasped at like straws to justify it.

Yet things like major crash bugs, host quits, and Jason helping that wreck every other match are put on the back burner for these incredibly pressing issues...

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