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TiffanyIsBae

Stealth is bad, ideas and simple mechanics to fix it.

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11 hours ago, TiffanyIsBae said:

She still can’t fix or protect as well as Vanessa. Doubt she’d be OP, just make her highest stat actually useful. 

If stealth would work like the way Rich Walk said. She would have three useful stats that are good and has nearly average luck.

We all know that she can't repair with her 1 repair but her being able to travel long distance and having a large stamina pool plus the changes to stealth could be very effective and catapult her from being mid-tier to high tier.

 

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@GunMedia_Ben

@TiffanyIsBae

I'd like to point out I've successfully used stealth playing Buggzy who only has a 2.

I was the last person alive so I crouch walked immediately. My plan was to wait out the timer so I went to a camp fire to keep my fear low and just crouch walked around the perimeter. 

Jason didn't find me until a while after, likely not until he got rage, as I had no sense avoidance perks on.

He then chased me around for a good while, had me limping with seconds left and I survived, but sadly, I couldn't get my points because Jason rage quit.

Stealth isn't useless, it's just used improperly by many players. The point of stealth is to avoid Jason with the help of good composure. Once he's on your ass, the stat shouldn't be a miracle worker. I do agree a minor bump across the board may help though.

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@JennyMyers1984 Dead by daylight is completely different. 4 vs 1... objectives are different as well... balancing also needs to be different.
   If you are getting 8/8 in every game... you are playing against noobs or people that refuse to work together... balancing the game around this will make it completely impossible to play Jason against any players that can work together... skill level is almost irrelevant here. Team work is everything, skill level is secondary. A group of fairly new players that understand what to do, do not need to be skillful to escape, they just have to work together. The game will be unplayable for Jason if it is balanced around this.
   I can take a group of new players (that at least know what to look for) that are willing to work together and escape with almost all of them... The problem is, everyone wants to be in charge. This does not bode well for teamwork. No one needs to be in charge, people just need to work together.
   I am in no way saying that some people cannot lone wolf it. Even in quick play you will run into skilled players that can give you a difficult chase.

   Sense avoidance perks work well... you just have to put down your other perks for them to have a chance. One of them is not enough. People also use them on the wrong counselors, these perks are useless for low stealth counselors. That and you have to keep your distance from Jason. This cannot always be done in every match... no tactic will work in every match. But playing as Jason, I have seen sense avoidance perks used to very good effect many times.... Its when Jason notices you using these perks that you think they don't work. Of course Jason will tunnel you, you will be very hard to find again otherwise. Without sense spamming, it would be impossible to find a stealth counselor using these perks... and Jason still needs a chance to find you. I am glad more people don't use these perks... facing a whole lobby that is running all epic sense avoidance perks would be very daunting.
   By Jason noticing you using these perks.. I mean when he sees you while using sense, but you are not glowing. Staying far enough away from him that he will not notice you in this matter is the most effective way to use these perks. You cannot be in Jason's face and hope these perks will help... that will get you tunneled. After all, everyone else is easy to find as they glow on sense.
   If Jason does not notice you because of these perks and you happen to be the last survivor... and he did not know you where using these perks, he will not sit around spamming sense without reason to. Moving on to another area to try and sense his prey is the better tactic... unless he sees a sound ping or he does know you are using these perks.


   Altering sense will be too much of a nerf to Jason. Stealth is already very useful... if used properly. But as I said, it will not save you in every circumstance. You probably will not even recognize the circumstance in which it did save you... because you were not close enough to Jason to know what he was doing or what he was looking for at the time... and if you were, it would not have saved you.
   When non stealth counselors try to hide from Jason and fail miserably, they wonder why... "The sound pings gave you away." I have never had to explain that to an A.J. player.
   It is the point to keep away from Jason, which stealth can help with... until you are sensed. The rest is up to your own skill to play keep away from the big guy... not relying on being invisible to him. If you manage to lose Jason... which can actually be done... then you have a better chance of not being noticed again by not making sound pings... even if that means crawling under a bed to avoid his sense... or jogging away with your sense avoidance perks and hope Jason just goes in another direction. Some luck will still be involved... you cannot control what the Jason player chooses to do.
   I escape as a counselor quite often enough already. With these proposed changes, there would be no challenge to escape at all. The only challenge here would be to get more than one kill with Jason. I am quite against making the most played part of this game way too easy... I seem to be a counselor about 7 out of 8 games after all. Easy is boring.

@Slasher_Clone Jason getting morph last? He would never make it to the fuse box to trap it before the cops are called. Then... being everyone in game knows you have no morph for several minutes... at least one car would be escaping in most games before you got your first morph. Morph is important for objective control and should stay where it is. If counselors had different goals that could not be completed before Jason gets morph, then that is a different story.

@HuDawg I find stalk to be rather useless until I actually know where a counselor is. Unless you are using a +Stalk Jason, you cannot wander very far before stalk is finished. Once I know where they are, it is very useful... otherwise it is guesswork and will more often than not end up just wasting time.
    It is useless using stalk while someone is looking right at you if you did not know they were there.
   Taking away sense spamming will make several perks way too overpowered... as I wrote of above in the paragraph that starts with... Sense avoidance.
    I am pretty good at adapting to changes, but so are a lot of other players... who will be playing the counselors. I can come up with some brutal counselor tactics against Jason with the ability build you are suggesting... knowing that he does not have sense for several minutes changes all of my tactics. Jason's abilities are fine as they are for the current game mode.... Now if another game mode were being used, with different objectives, changing order of abilities could make much more sense.... we need some more game modes!!


    

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Ah yes, that's why I edited it to switch sense and stalk @Ahab. I still think we need a mode that lets us play Jason a different way, and gives us a chance to see for ourselves why the powers are in that order in the core game. I think it would be exciting to not know for sure what a Jason is going to do again. 

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If Sense was used and this created a vague aura of counselors around that wasn't 100% pinpoint that they'll be in the center of it all the time, it would keep Jason tethered to players, so the excitement never goes away when he's near (so it encourages you to break free from his senses), but he doesn't just end up finding you right away either.  This makes it fun for both Jason and the counselor, because now hiding places become more useful, it gives you the ability to hide outside organically as well, and you'll get those roller coaster moments, "He just walked right past me!!"  So it wouldn't feel cheap on either side if balanced correctly.. and for some counselors, the aura may not appear at all (depending on perks and counselor) the same as it is now. 

If that doesn't sound like an awesome mechanic.. I don't know what does.

Balancing the counselors obviously would be in order on top of that to slow the rounds down and push incentive to slow down when Jason is close, as then the aura would widen and become more narrow, based on your movement.. but you'd have to balance it in such a way that players aren't encouraged to move around TOO slowly, because that would just be boring.. but that's why all these things would have to be tested until it's fun. 

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19 minutes ago, Laphin said:

If Sense was used and this created a vague aura of counselors around that wasn't 100% pinpoint that they'll be in the center of it all the time, it would keep Jason tethered to players, so the excitement never goes away when he's near (so it encourages you to break free from his senses), but he doesn't just end up finding you right away either.  This makes it fun for both Jason and the counselor, because now hiding places become more useful, it gives you the ability to hide outside organically as well, and you'll get those roller coaster moments, "He just walked right past me!!"  So it wouldn't feel cheap on either side if balanced correctly.. and for some counselors, the aura may not appear at all (depending on perks and counselor) the same as it is now. 

If that doesn't sound like an awesome mechanic.. I don't know what does.

Balancing the counselors obviously would be in order on top of that to slow the rounds down and push incentive to slow down when Jason is close, as then the aura would widen and become more narrow, based on your movement.. but you'd have to balance it in such a way that players aren't encouraged to move around TOO slowly, because that would just be boring.. but that's why all these things would have to be tested until it's fun. 

I love this idea! 

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11 hours ago, Ahab said:

@JennyMyers1984 Dead by daylight is completely different. 4 vs 1... objectives are different as well... balancing also needs to be different.
   If you are getting 8/8 in every game... you are playing against noobs or people that refuse to work together... balancing the game around this will make it completely impossible to play Jason against any players that can work together... skill level is almost irrelevant here. Team work is everything, skill level is secondary. A group of fairly new players that understand what to do, do not need to be skillful to escape, they just have to work together. The game will be unplayable for Jason if it is balanced around this.
   I can take a group of new players (that at least know what to look for) that are willing to work together and escape with almost all of them... The problem is, everyone wants to be in charge. This does not bode well for teamwork. No one needs to be in charge, people just need to work together.
   I am in no way saying that some people cannot lone wolf it. Even in quick play you will run into skilled players that can give you a difficult chase.

   Sense avoidance perks work well... you just have to put down your other perks for them to have a chance. One of them is not enough. People also use them on the wrong counselors, these perks are useless for low stealth counselors. That and you have to keep your distance from Jason. This cannot always be done in every match... no tactic will work in every match. But playing as Jason, I have seen sense avoidance perks used to very good effect many times.... Its when Jason notices you using these perks that you think they don't work. Of course Jason will tunnel you, you will be very hard to find again otherwise. Without sense spamming, it would be impossible to find a stealth counselor using these perks... and Jason still needs a chance to find you. I am glad more people don't use these perks... facing a whole lobby that is running all epic sense avoidance perks would be very daunting.
   By Jason noticing you using these perks.. I mean when he sees you while using sense, but you are not glowing. Staying far enough away from him that he will not notice you in this matter is the most effective way to use these perks. You cannot be in Jason's face and hope these perks will help... that will get you tunneled. After all, everyone else is easy to find as they glow on sense.
   If Jason does not notice you because of these perks and you happen to be the last survivor... and he did not know you where using these perks, he will not sit around spamming sense without reason to. Moving on to another area to try and sense his prey is the better tactic... unless he sees a sound ping or he does know you are using these perks.


   Altering sense will be too much of a nerf to Jason. Stealth is already very useful... if used properly. But as I said, it will not save you in every circumstance. You probably will not even recognize the circumstance in which it did save you... because you were not close enough to Jason to know what he was doing or what he was looking for at the time... and if you were, it would not have saved you.
   When non stealth counselors try to hide from Jason and fail miserably, they wonder why... "The sound pings gave you away." I have never had to explain that to an A.J. player.
   It is the point to keep away from Jason, which stealth can help with... until you are sensed. The rest is up to your own skill to play keep away from the big guy... not relying on being invisible to him. If you manage to lose Jason... which can actually be done... then you have a better chance of not being noticed again by not making sound pings... even if that means crawling under a bed to avoid his sense... or jogging away with your sense avoidance perks and hope Jason just goes in another direction. Some luck will still be involved... you cannot control what the Jason player chooses to do.
   I escape as a counselor quite often enough already. With these proposed changes, there would be no challenge to escape at all. The only challenge here would be to get more than one kill with Jason. I am quite against making the most played part of this game way too easy... I seem to be a counselor about 7 out of 8 games after all. Easy is boring.



    

Welp...in that case I’ll use the same fight and distraction tactis I’ve always used that save my ass all the time. If stealth doesn’t get buffed to some extent I don’t see a need to use stealth perks when they only work SOME of the time when you can you the perks like marathon, medic, thick skinned, sucker punch, and swift attacker that work ALL the time. You and I can argue on this all day but we’ll still stand by our points. Sense should never give away your full postion, period. Until you reach full fear that is. The big red cloud is enough for Jason to know you are in the area, you can play a little bit more hide and seek with the killer...not to mention if you see a big red fog around a house, it’ll be much more immersive than a red glowing house is. You cannot suggest to buff Jason to all hell and not give counselors SOMETHING. You will not believe some of the ridiculous buffs I have heard suggested here. Yes, Jason should be buffed in some way but counselors should not be nerfed to be extremely helpless. If you haven’t already, I suggest taking a look and Laphin’s latest virtual cabin video to get a better look at what I am suggesting with sense/stealth. It would not be a nerf to Jason.

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2 hours ago, JennyMyers1984 said:

Welp...in that case I’ll use the same fight and distraction tactis I’ve always used that save my ass all the time. If stealth doesn’t get buffed to some extent I don’t see a need to use stealth perks when they only work SOME of the time when you can you the perks like marathon, medic, thick skinned, sucker punch, and swift attacker that work ALL the time. You and I can argue on this all day but we’ll still stand by our points. Sense should never give away your full postion, period. Until you reach full fear that is. The big red cloud is enough for Jason to know you are in the area, you can play a little bit more hide and seek with the killer...not to mention if you see a big red fog around a house, it’ll be much more immersive than a red glowing house is. You cannot suggest to buff Jason to all hell and not give counselors SOMETHING. You will not believe some of the ridiculous buffs I have heard suggested here. Yes, Jason should be buffed in some way but counselors should not be nerfed to be extremely helpless. If you haven’t already, I suggest taking a look and Laphin’s latest virtual cabin video to get a better look at what I am suggesting with sense/stealth. It would not be a nerf to Jason.

Here. Let me get this straight... you have a sure way or two to survive mostly every game. Now you would like another sure way to survive by nerfing sense or buffing sense avoidance? Jeesus, how easy do you counselors want it?

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2 minutes ago, lasse_hei said:

Here. Let me get this straight... you have a sure way or two to survive mostly every game. Now you would like another sure way to survive by nerfing sense or buffing sense avoidance? Jeesus, how easy do you counselors want it?

Ikr? It’s like they want this game, to turn into, some kind of “Bully The Killer: Simulator”. 

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2 hours ago, lasse_hei said:

Here. Let me get this straight... you have a sure way or two to survive mostly every game. Now you would like another sure way to survive by nerfing sense or buffing sense avoidance? Jeesus, how easy do you counselors want it?

No...I don’t survive every game nor do I have a 100% survival rate. How easy do JASON players want it. He already has a terminator sense and can easily murder everybody in QP because nobody works together. As stated, Jason’s job is a CAKEWALK in 90% of QP matches if you’re a skilled player, I will never understand why Jason needs any kind of sense buff when it’s already OP. A red fog is not a nerf, stop screaming nerf when it’s not a nerf. Jason was not pinpoint accurate in every single way, he isn’t perfect. If you have no fear at least SOMETIMES sense should not pick you up, you shouldn’t have to rely on perks. Stealth is one of the stats people keep saying is useless yet when a slight buff is suggested all the butthurt Jason players who have been looped too many times by Vanessa will scream the word “nerf” at any slight adjustment to a stat. If the pinpoint sense was adjusted to a red fog telling that a counselor is in the area it would provide more stealth plays rather than fighting Jason head on which a lot of people seem to hate because Jason is supposed to be an “unstoppable killing machine” yet seem to lack to understanding of balance in a video game.

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You guys have no idea WHAT the hell you want in the game.  
It's not about winning or losing.. and those of you that keep whining about changing shit in the game based off winning or losing, YOU **ALL** are the ones that's hurting the game.

The developers should be making choices to help carry the EXPERIENCE of the game.. not because YOU personally want to win matches.
That's not how this game should be built.. and honestly, half the time, it's embarrasing that the devs can't create their own game, with their own direction (when they question the forum on certain things that are PRETTY obvious need fixing), it'd be better to see a confident development team, make confident decisions about their own game... instead of listening to the "I WANT TO WIIN.... so change this!!" crowd, and then they end up putting ridiculous shiat in their game from folks who just don't get it.. it astounds me.

Illfonic and Gun seem to base most of their decisions off stats... when they need to actually just start opening up and listening to the right people.

 

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How to not only fix Stealth, but also fix several aspects of the game in one simple move:

 

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@JennyMyers1984

Why do you keep comparing Jason against a group of unorganized players? Judge the game as good Jason vs good group. Believe me, not a cakewalk.

Same thing with every single game: good players will, and should, punish the poor everytime.

Edit:

You said, among other things: "in that case I’ll use the same fight and distraction tactis I’ve always used that save my ass all the time. "

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24 minutes ago, lasse_hei said:

@JennyMyers1984

Why do you keep comparing Jason against a group of unorganized players? Judge the game as good Jason vs good group. Believe me, not a cakewalk.

Same thing with every single game: good players will, and should, punish the poor everytime.

Edit:

You said in that case I’ll use the same fight and distraction tactis I’ve always used that save my ass all the time

Yeah...”fight and distraction tactis” in a game that is supposed to revolve around stealth, yet it is useless against sense spamming and pinpoint sense accuracy, so you are forced into combat and when you do decent and survive people keep screaming “buff Jason” when fighting is really all you can do as a counselor. It is fight or die. I did not mean LITERALLY “save my ass all the time” stop taking what I say so literally. Nobody has a 100% survival rate nor will anybody ever. Okay and what YOU SAID was a good player will punish a poor one everytime. In the case, there is a reason why the Level 150’s punish the Level 12 Jason’s and buff or not, that probably won’t change. Sometimes the counselor is just more skilled than the Jason player and survives and sometimes the Jason player can wipe the floor easily. You can’t expect to do great as Jason every single round, even with all the buffs in the world sometimes you’ll get your ass handed to you by a better player. I say a majority of QP because most are unorganized, not all but most. Unless you always play private matches you’ll mostly run into low level organized people in QP and of course there are time where you’ll run into great players, but 70% of the time you will not. What do you expect a good group of counselors to do? Lay down and die? No, nor will they ever. You’ll never have a cakewalk with a good group of counselors. If it is 7 V 1 and they are all ganging up on you then what can you do? It may be Jason but 7 V 1 is a lot to deal with, what buffs could possibly combat that. It is realistic, no one person or even Jason can take on 7 people at once, just not possible. 

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I'm not calling buffs for Jason, just calling out plain facts. I don't need to kill everyone every game, nor do I need to survive every time.

I'm just saying and stating how the game and balance should be judged. 

 

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