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tyrant666

"Jason hasn't been nerfed, the Counselors have just gotten better" Do you believe this?

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On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 7:17 AM, tyrant666 said:

While watching Randy play in the stream in the other night.

He would mention things would always be open to changes.

But whenever he directly addressed the nature of Jason play lately. His opinion is that Jason really hasn't been nerfed, but the counselors have just gotten better, which has made it harder for Jason to have easier games.

I just wonder if anybody agrees with that logic? While it may be true for the seasoned counselor players. How does that explain why Jason players haven't counter improved against even new counselors? Seasoned Jason players or even noobs for that matter?

While he did mention it comes down to the skill level of the players. It just begs to question.

There was literally one point in the stream where a Tommy and Chad were outright trolling Jason. Tommy was literally running right around and right on top of Jason and he couldn't grab the Tommy directly in front of him. Randy kept saying the mistake the Jason player was making was relying on grab constantly and instead he should've used his melee weapon. Melee isn't all that reliable either, especially up against objects, walls, etc.

He would talk about how his prior grab range was actually a bug that was fixed. Same for trap stacking not being intentional. While I've never cared or argued one way or the other for trap stacking. I'm surprised given the evidence was right in front of him of Jason whiffing Tommy directly in front of him now that he thought melee would be the obvious and easy counter.

I don't want to be a jerk and question his skill set of the game. I just hope the overall dev team sees more.

Also, if there is a topic about that stream the other night, feel free to close this.

tumblr_nuwpwjKcLj1tf76g1o1_400.gif

Ok guys, this is just my opinion, but here is what I think is going on. I believe that when this game first came out, Jason was probably exactly as op as Gun Media and Illfonic intended him to be. Remember when a counselor was half way through a window and Jason could hit them with his weapon. Now you cant. Remember when Jason could grab you from a foot away. Now you cant. I think they were reading what everybody was saying, and when the population started to die, they panicked. So to try and get back the people that left, they nerfed Jason to what we have now. Now the same people that complained about Jason being too op are now upset that hes a punk. Gun Media, just make Jason op, like he should be, and stop trying to please all the cry babies out there. I realize that you guys have a lot of love for this franchise, and cannot be happy with the current state of the game. I love the game, but god forbid make Jason great again.

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17 hours ago, WashingtonJones said:

She got hit when she was right on top of me, standing or crouching.

Once I edit the video down, I'll post it.

I made a mistake. When I watched back, I saw that we actually didn't do a crouched melee test. I mistook it for the crouched grab test.

Well here it is. Nothing fancy. I tried my best to get the cleanest angles to show distance. 

Keep an eye out for the grab indicator. 

 

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2 hours ago, humerabi said:

Remember when Jason could grab you from a foot away.

 

No, but I certainly remember when he could grab you from ten feet away, until they fixed it in the last patch.

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3 hours ago, WashingtonJones said:

I made a mistake. When I watched back, I saw that we actually didn't do a crouched melee test. I mistook it for the crouched grab test.

Well here it is. Nothing fancy. I tried my best to get the cleanest angles to show distance. 

Keep an eye out for the grab indicator. 

 

@dmack621 Watch the grabs at the beginning of this video. You will see the counselor teleport into Jason's hand. This proves that it is how the grab functions and that the earlier grab range test videos were not fake. You lose.

@bewareofbears I find it hilarious that counselors are utterly untouchable while crouched against Jasons with one-handed weapons.

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On 11/26/2017 at 6:17 AM, tyrant666 said:

While watching Randy play in the stream in the other night.

He would mention things would always be open to changes.

But whenever he directly addressed the nature of Jason play lately. His opinion is that Jason really hasn't been nerfed, but the counselors have just gotten better, which has made it harder for Jason to have easier games.

I just wonder if anybody agrees with that logic? While it may be true for the seasoned counselor players. How does that explain why Jason players haven't counter improved against even new counselors? Seasoned Jason players or even noobs for that matter?

While he did mention it comes down to the skill level of the players. It just begs to question.

There was literally one point in the stream where a Tommy and Chad were outright trolling Jason. Tommy was literally running right around and right on top of Jason and he couldn't grab the Tommy directly in front of him. Randy kept saying the mistake the Jason player was making was relying on grab constantly and instead he should've used his melee weapon. Melee isn't all that reliable either, especially up against objects, walls, etc.

He would talk about how his prior grab range was actually a bug that was fixed. Same for trap stacking not being intentional. While I've never cared or argued one way or the other for trap stacking. I'm surprised given the evidence was right in front of him of Jason whiffing Tommy directly in front of him now that he thought melee would be the obvious and easy counter.

I don't want to be a jerk and question his skill set of the game. I just hope the overall dev team sees more.

Also, if there is a topic about that stream the other night, feel free to close this.

tumblr_nuwpwjKcLj1tf76g1o1_400.gif

Bbbbbbbbbbbuuuuuuuuuuuulllllllllsssssshhhhhhhhhhhiiiiiitttttttttt.

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Great discussion here. Cool graphics @Alkavian.

I have a video of me whiffing the grab that makes my head spin every time I watch it. I was chasing a Vanessa that had depleted her stamina and it took me four grab attempts to finally succeed. The first one may be questionable, but the second and third grabs seem to miss even though I was right beside her/behind her for each subsequent grab. It finally connected when she had to maneuver left. Given the shape of the grab, the active frames should have detected the player's position sooner, right? Ping plays a role, latency plays a role, and the active frames play a role, but with this footage compared to the grab testing videos in this thread, I have no idea.

Edit: Checked the raw footage. Only indication of ping that I noticed was just before exiting to the lobby. We were both hovering around 150 ms.

Also, did any of you know about the invisible barrier in the basement of the Jarvis House? It's right at the beginning of this video. Counselors can bypass the invisible wall, but it stops Jason right in his tracks. I thoughtI just noticed this yesterday because I've always viewed the basement as a death trap. I was getting outplayed. Severely.

Edited by BomberBuddy
Ping addition.

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29 minutes ago, BomberBuddy said:

Also, did any of you know about the invisible barrier in the basement of the Jarvis House? It's right at the beginning of this video. Counselors can bypass the invisible wall, but it stops Jason right in his tracks. I thoughtI just noticed this yesterday because I've always viewed the basement as a death trap. I was getting outplayed. Severely.

Yes I ran into that a couple of days ago

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OK, ran a few more tests tonight with @bewareofbears and @TheHansonGoons.

Per Request: @WashingtonJones

We did some high ping counselor vs low ping counselor tests versus Part 8 as requested. Bears will be putting together a video. Ping doesn't seem to matter in regards to hitting a crouching counselor with a free swing. Moving grab tests are also shown in the video. I think my ping as counselor was sitting above 350 earlier in the night. Moving counselors versus the grab seemed to indicate there was a slightly better chance of avoiding the grab with higher ping.

Part 2:

1. Seems to reliably hit a crouching counselor with free swing and standing swings. Seems to have a unique weapon hitbox that makes his attacks more reliable in these instances.

Part 4:

1. Same issues as Part 7 and Part 8.

2. Will always miss a ducking counselor with free swings.

Part 9:

1. Same type of results as Part 3.

In summary for hitting a crouching counselor in free-swing:

Part 2 = unique weapon hitbox

Part 3/9 = same weapon mechanics

Part 4/7/8 = same weapon mechanics

Part6/Savini = same weapon mechanics

***Bonus fun fact. Ducking counselors can be hit by Part 4,7, and 8 if they try to "nudge/push" each other while crouching. It apparently creates a collision issue with their hitboxes and will allow these Jasons to hit them.

Windows:

1. Can interrupt a counselor climbing through only if they have not reached the apex (center up in the window) of the climb through animation.

2. Invulnerable to grab, melee, and knives past apex until the animation resolves.

Hitting a Counselor making a repair:

1. If Jason's weapon side is adjacent to the car, he will usually hit the car and not register at hit versus the counselor.

2. Best attack is from rear or with the weapon swinging arm in the open.

Pick up item from floor animation:

1. Counselor is immune to ALL melee swings while picking up an item. Combat stance will NOT allow a hit if they are spamming the button to keep picking up an item.

2. Can still be grabbed.

3. Didn't not test a knife....sorry forgot.

Furniture pull-over grabs:

1. Jason can grab counselors over small tables. Not big tables.

2. Jason cannot grab over benches and couches.

3. Small chairs it depends on which side the counselor and Jason are on. Jason call pull a counselor over if they are on the low (seat) side and he is on the backrest side. If inverted, the backrest provides a magical barrier preventing the grab.

4. Jason can melee and hit counselors over benches, couches, and whatnot. This does not work on large dining tables or picnic tables.

Shift-grab IS NOT a thing as it was before:

1. A single press of the button for grab or melee swing, simply ENDS THE SHIFT. There is not a follow-through grab or swing animation. You have to press the button twice to get a grab or swing at the end of a Shift. There is also a slight delay. The delay is about 1 - 1.5 seconds before the animation starts.

2. I would surmise this is why so many people are having issues getting off shift grabs fluidly. The change to how the Shift ends combined with the modified grab AoE is a two-part culprit.

Well, that's a quick rundown of the findings. Bears video will hopefully illustrate what I was just rambling on about.

 

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The counselors are worse then ever.

I kinda looking forward to bots, as they will probably play better and cooperating more when the average random player.

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7 minutes ago, Fooobar said:

The counselors are worse then ever.

I kinda looking forward to bots, as they will probably play better and cooperating more when the average random player.

I'm interested to see how bots handle trapped objectives..

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22 minutes ago, AldermachXI said:

I'm interested to see how bots handle trapped objectives..

Probably better then the average player that seldom even get close to an objective. If they try to repair it, they are Tiffany and screwing it up 3 times.

I'm not completely serious but the random players are really bad now. Much worse then before.

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5 hours ago, BomberBuddy said:

Great discussion here. Cool graphics @Alkavian.

I have a video of me whiffing the grab that makes my head spin every time I watch it. I was chasing a Vanessa that had depleted her stamina and it took me four grab attempts to finally succeed. The first one may be questionable, but the second and third grabs seem to miss even though I was right beside her/behind her for each subsequent grab. It finally connected when she had to maneuver left. Given the shape of the grab, the active frames should have detected the player's position sooner, right? Ping plays a role, latency plays a role, and the active frames play a role, but with this footage compared to the grab testing videos in this thread, I have no idea.

Edit: Checked the raw footage. Only indication of ping that I noticed was just before exiting to the lobby. We were both hovering around 150 ms.

Also, did any of you know about the invisible barrier in the basement of the Jarvis House? It's right at the beginning of this video. Counselors can bypass the invisible wall, but it stops Jason right in his tracks. I thoughtI just noticed this yesterday because I've always viewed the basement as a death trap. I was getting outplayed. Severely.

I made it out of the Invisible wall basement. I killed the door. 

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5 hours ago, Alkavian said:

Per Request: @WashingtonJones

We did some high ping counselor vs low ping counselor tests versus Part 8 as requested..

.....

Bears video will hopefully illustrate what I was just rambling on about.

Very cool. Thanks!

Looking forward to the video.

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1 hour ago, Brigadius said:

My vote for next Jason's weapon.

y9pFFX5.png oRwCXb7.png

So, there is no more this...

xFnR5e8.png

The mighty t-rex jason.

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Did some more testing with @Alkavian and @TheHansonGoons:

Again, I'm attempting to show this all without bias. My hope is it will improve discussion and debate as a point of reference.

We tested a ton of stuff, much more than I remembered, and there's more clips that I didn't include in this video that I will likely cut up and post tomorrow (today now). @Alkavian provided some notes on what we encountered a few posts back.

If I remember right, @WashingtonJones was curious about high ping counselors and we did some tests with a high ping counselor.

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2 hours ago, bewareofbears said:

Did some more testing with @Alkavian and @TheHansonGoons:

Again, I'm attempting to show this all without bias. My hope is it will improve discussion and debate as a point of reference.

We tested a ton of stuff, much more than I remembered, and there's more clips that I didn't include in this video that I will likely cut up and post tomorrow (today now). @Alkavian provided some notes on what we encountered a few posts back.

If I remember right, @WashingtonJones was curious about high ping counselors and we did some tests with a high ping counselor.

Wow, quick turn-around on slapping that together Bears.  Nice job.

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I ran some crouching tests to see if anything is different on PC. 

With Jason 8 against Fox, when she was crouched and not moving, I was able to hit her only if she was front and off to the right of me.  I couldn't hit her while she crouch-walked unless I was in combat stance. 

 

Something I noticed is, when Jason swings at a counselor, his direction always pulls towards the them, as an aim assist. When the counselor is crouched and stationary, you can position yourself in a way, that works with the pull, to bring the blade into contact. But the aim assist might be pulling Jason too much when the counselor is crouch-walking. You can't take a leading swing because it always pulls him out of the intended position.

I have a feeling a crouch-walker can be hit though...even if it's a 1 in 20 chance. I didn't spend too much time on it right now, but if I'm off early tmrw/today I'll try to get my roommate to do it with me, because Private Matches on PC seem to be very buggy, unless you're in the same house.

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6 minutes ago, WashingtonJones said:

I ran some crouching tests to see if anything is different on PC. 

With Jason 8 against Fox, when she was crouched and not moving, I was able to hit her only if she was front and off to the right of me.  I couldn't hit her while she crouch-walked unless I was in combat stance.

Something I noticed is, when Jason swings at a counselor, his direction always pulls towards the them, as an aim assist.

Yeah, with Pat 4,7, and 8 combat stance is about the only way to reliably hit a crouch walking counselor. Up close to the weapon side can allow a hit if the head hitbox is clipped by Jason's swing. Funny enough that is the safe side for Part 3 and Part 9.:lol:

I don't think it is aim assist. He has a canned step-forward animation that moves him towards a counselor about half of his total weapon reach. The collision of hitboxes, depending on where Jason is positioned, can cause him to be turned. It's actually pretty annoying because a nicely lined-up swing can be shifted because of the collision mechanics interfering due to a random small environmental object or even a character model. It may be different on the PC build though.  We are on Xbox.

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1 hour ago, Alkavian said:

He has a canned step-forward animation that moves him towards a counselor about half of his total weapon reach. The collision of hitboxes, depending on where Jason is positioned, can cause him to be turned.

When looking in slow-mo at the close melee attacks, his body turns itself towards the counselor at the start of the animation. So he already gets turned before he swings. And I just watched the crouch-walking one I recorded tonight and I could see him turn from one direction to the next (towards the counselor) once each attack started.

What I did notice is that it's hard to tell that it's happening because the camera pulls in with Jason and it smooths it out. The camera doesn't pull in with an overhead view, so when Jason starts his swing, it looks like there's an edit in the video. His body jumps from one point to the next. Almost like a mini teleport.

I can also see it in Bear's video with Jason trying to hit the running counselors and when trying to hit Mitch with the battery.

He's locked on.

Could I be imagining things?

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36 minutes ago, VoorheesAJollyGoodFellow said:

Jason's animation merely makes him take a quick step forward.

Then what's turning him towards them?

Combat stance is a constant state of being locked on. What's happening here is a variable state of being locked on. I positioned myself looking away from Jenny, with her off to my side. I didn't touch any part of the controller except for the right trigger. The instant the swing animation starts his body is turned towards her.

If he's not locking on with his melee, then after each missed swing on a moving counselor, his body should always be facing in the same direction he started in. 

Granted, you'd have to be close enough for it to pull. Swinging in the opposite direction wont make it happen.

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