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bewareofbears

Does Illphonic Track/Monitor Jason Stats?

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@[IllFonic]Courier @Gertz

I was reading notes from a stream by Dead by Daylight's developers and they mentioned that they track how successful/powerful their killers are on their end.

Does Illphonic track/monitor the stats for the Jasons?

For example:

  • How often they are killed
  • How successful they are
  • How often they're stunned
  • Etc.

There's some balance issues (like the longstanding issues with Part 7) that haven't really been addressed. Are you guys relying on community feedback or able to monitor playerbase stats from your end? 

Bonus Question

Are you working towards streamlining patches/fixes? The amount of time between patches seems inordinate.

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I think even if they did, it wouldn't be meaningful towards monitoring balance. I've talked about this before. Without a matchmaking system in place, matches can be extremely lopsided. Even matchmaking based on level wouldn't be enough, as the success of a lobby against Jason doesn't just depend on individual skill (which doesn't align with player level either, plenty of bad 101s) but the level of coordination / teamwork. So an accurate matchmaking system would have to account for survival rate, success in combat, success at completing objectives, and a number of other factors which would suggest some level of teamwork is involved. Looking at it based on points according to their activity in the match would be a start.

Only then could Jason himself be accurately monitored at how effective he is within each tier of skill, and against lower or higher tiers. This would be the best way to statistically determine how Jason is performing in general, and offer insight for balance so that a skilled Jason isn't impossible against average players, but also isn't underpowered against the highest tier of players, who would all be competitively focused. 

To provide a personal example, I'm level 92 now. I wipe most lobbies, even despite all the bugs that have accumulated in Jason's gameplay. Low levels in particular simply have no chance. This doesn't mean the game is unbalanced, it just means I'm not being matched with the right players. Again, despite changes to Jason's gameplay and execution problems, you can still 8/8 a lobby even just dicking around. A memorable example is a video I watched of "no land movement Jason" who literally doesn't even move other than Shift Grabbing, Morphing and throwing knives, and still cleans up the counselors.

But in every extended session of playing, I do run into good teams who are a real eye-opener. They obviously communicate and coordinate, know my activities wherever I am on the map, take advantage of my cooldown times, and actively contest objectives. So after getting used to matches where I'm dominating lobbies, all of a sudden I'm getting fucked left, right and center. These matches are learning experiences where I really find out what I'm doing wrong, and what Jason is and isn't equipped to deal with after viewing it objectively. And some of these teams aren't even numerically high level, they're just talented / skilled. 

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@Tommy86

I agree about the lopsided matches. 

I still wonder how they determine balance issues though. I do think the game is weighted to the advantage of counselors at the moment. Some folks have adjusted tremendously to the changes to Jason though but I don't think the average or casual gamer has. I know I haven't. The no window damage thing still seems to be an issue intermittently.

I wonder to if they're relying on community feedback, where are they getting it from and is there a way we can help.

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Jason is fucked. What's most annoying is that the reach on a counselors swing is longer than Jason's grab. Not to mention there are like 5 pocket knifes in-game now.

These types of problems make random public lobbies more challenging. But in an experienced lobby.... absolutely infuriating. :angry:

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well if they do  track the game stats, they have to notice that the rate in which Jason is being killed at has gone up significantly higher

 

7 hours ago, zarakye said:

Jason is fucked. What's most annoying is that the reach on a counselors swing is longer than Jason's grab. Not to mention there are like 5 pocket knifes in-game now.

These types of problems make random public lobbies more challenging. But in an experienced lobby.... absolutely infuriating. :angry:

I think there's more then 5 pre game

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15 minutes ago, Frighteningicon said:

I think there's more then 5 pre game

I'm not sure. The most I've been stabbed in-game was 5 times.

Once it happened 5 consecutive grabs in a row. I was so infuriated I was about to just quit.

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giphy.gif

(Mod note: Dear Mods,I have commented with a tumbleweed gif. because it's something that represents a ghost-town/no one around in popular culture and I'm relating it to the silence by the devs in regards to the recent patch community feedback etc.)

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16 minutes ago, zarakye said:

I'm not sure. The most I've been stabbed in-game was 5 times.

Once it happened 5 consecutive grabs in a row. I was so infuriated I was about to just quit.

I don't know if it was a glitch or whatever, But I know on the game I was playing last night, they were 6 pocket knife spawn. that I know about, in a quick play match there was about three of us working together and I usually use buggzy and I found three pocket knives to start with, The other players were using an  Adam and AJ The guy that was playing Adam told me he had two pocket knives, and when AJ was killed The guy playing Adam picked up the pocket knife, we both had three pocket knives a piece, and we were on a small map at that the Jason ended up eventually rage quitting, as I said I don't know if it was a glitch or not

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1 hour ago, thatdudescott said:

giphy.gif

(Mod note: Dear Mods,I have commented with a tumbleweed gif. because it's something that represents a ghost-town/no one around in popular culture and I'm relating it to the silence by the devs in regards to the recent patch community feedback etc.)

A picture is worth a thousand words. ;)

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3 hours ago, bewareofbears said:

@Tommy86

I agree about the lopsided matches. 

I still wonder how they determine balance issues though. I do think the game is weighted to the advantage of counselors at the moment. Some folks have adjusted tremendously to the changes to Jason though but I don't think the average or casual gamer has. I know I haven't. The no window damage thing still seems to be an issue intermittently.

I wonder to if they're relying on community feedback, where are they getting it from and is there a way we can help.

Sorry bears but I’ve given up on this game, we have been helping them by buying playing and complaining! It seems they aren’t listening anyways.!!! 

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52 minutes ago, BigJVOOREES said:

Sorry bears but I’ve given up on this game, we have been helping them by buying playing and complaining! It seems they aren’t listening anyways.!!! 

They really have stopped listening. I could understand anyone giving up on this game/publisher/developer.

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7 minutes ago, bewareofbears said:

They really have stopped listening. I could understand anyone giving up on this game/publisher/developer.

God bless you bears!, I was a lil late to the party on joining the forums but i was a backer of this game since summer camp vol 1. And a Jason fan since 84! You always made the most sense on these forums yet you still are willing to help these guys!  God bless u for still trying. I can’t anymore! I still have no backer copy to start they gave away savini Jason to any swinging dick! He was supposed to make us backers special! These are just small disgusts on my end,! I could keep going!!! I’m all done. I just wanna thank you cause hopefully if you all keep complaining and want to help, maybe just maybe ! I will come back and play my favorite horror movie villain’s game again! But to be honest, i wish i had not backed this game and saved myself $$$. 

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1 hour ago, BigJVOOREES said:

God bless you bears!, I was a lil late to the party on joining the forums but i was a backer of this game since summer camp vol 1. And a Jason fan since 84! You always made the most sense on these forums yet you still are willing to help these guys!  God bless u for still trying. I can’t anymore! I still have no backer copy to start they gave away savini Jason to any swinging dick! He was supposed to make us backers special! These are just small disgusts on my end,! I could keep going!!! I’m all done. I just wanna thank you cause hopefully if you all keep complaining and want to help, maybe just maybe ! I will come back and play my favorite horror movie villain’s game again! But to be honest, i wish i had not backed this game and saved myself $$$. 

Thanks for the positive comments. I appreciate it.

I regret backing too, I've said as much before. I kind of wish I'd just stumbled onto this game whenever it's on a 75% off sale but that's not possible as it's Friday the 13th and I was also following the development since Summer Camp Vol. 1. 

The backers have been treated like an afterthought throughout most of the process, particularly since launch. There is a lot Gun has to do to make things right. There's a lot Illphonic has to do to make this game what it was promised to be (and not broken in general). If nobody calls them on their bullshit we all lose.

I don't blame you or anyone for giving up. Too many broken promises, too many broken patches. If it weren't for the community there wouldn't be anything keeping me here either. Hopefully things can be turned around and we'll see you and other folks who left return.

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I know they monitor a lot of stuff on the back end. They haven't specified WHAT they monitor. For all we know, they may just have a Magic 8 Ball. It is evident that they DO listen to feedback, but what they base their decisions on could be nothing more than what a dart landed closest to on the office dartboard.

Blindfolded_man_throwing_darts_BLD009417

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3 hours ago, bewareofbears said:

They really have stopped listening. I could understand anyone giving up on this game/publisher/developer.

Maybe they operate on an RNG as to whether they respond to posts on here.  It really does seem that random.

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Isn't Courier the one who talks to us now though? From what I understand, the devs hired a person who now acts as the middle-man for us, so it would make sense why the devs have been silent.

Courier did pop up in a few different threads to confirm some stuff the devs were observing/working on :

  • Windows (being able to damage/grab counselors more easily, smoother abilty to destroy windows, being able to destroy windows that normally could be destroyed before)
  • Part 7 remake
  • Being able to make sure you're always a counselor when you chooose the counselor preference.

Just saying.

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4 hours ago, bewareofbears said:

I kind of wish I'd just stumbled onto this game whenever it's on a 75% off sale but that's not possible as it's Friday the 13th and I was also following the development since Summer Camp Vol. 1. 

I feel ya on this 100%.

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1 hour ago, Trident77 said:

Isn't Courier the one who talks to us now though? From what I understand, the devs hired a person who now acts as the middle-man for us, so it would make sense why the devs have been silent.

Courier did pop up in a few different threads to confirm some stuff the devs were observing/working on :

  • Windows (being able to damage/grab counselors more easily, smoother abilty to destroy windows, being able to destroy windows that normally could be destroyed before)
  • Part 7 remake
  • Being able to make sure you're always a counselor when you chooose the counselor preference.

Just saying.

Those are nice tidbits. 9 posts in the month of November is it though from Courier.

I'm unsure if the publishers are silent because Courier's here now. I'm fine with a little less from Gun and a little more from Illphonic though. Gun are the talkers, Illphonic are the doers. 

I'm hoping he's not hiding in the Discord and is actually engaging the community on all fronts.

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They need to fix the fucking sweater glitch my kill on a 101 Savini Jason was denied due to it. (Still counting it)

And before this we were killing a Part 3, who then left so we wouldn't get XP. (Hoping I can get this guy permanently banned for trolling)

 

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12 hours ago, bewareofbears said:

@Tommy86

I agree about the lopsided matches. 

I still wonder how they determine balance issues though. I do think the game is weighted to the advantage of counselors at the moment. Some folks have adjusted tremendously to the changes to Jason though but I don't think the average or casual gamer has. I know I haven't. The no window damage thing still seems to be an issue intermittently.

I wonder to if they're relying on community feedback, where are they getting it from and is there a way we can help.

I think they determine balance issues in a number of ways. Their own playtesting, the theory behind it, the general reception to patches, and probably some statistical analysis. I think that's a good guess anyway. 

Evidently they are relying on community feedback, and not just from this forum but all channels. We have seen things change about the game, and even changes reverted to some extent (eg. windows, scoreboard) directly based on our feedback. So they do take player dissatisfaction into account. Whether that's always the right thing to do is a different matter. Giving in to new players demanding for changes due to difficulty (even when good counterplay already exists) is not wise. So I do hope they are listening to the right players, those with enough skill and knowledge to provide the best insight into balance.

As far as what we can do to help, well we are already doing it. Posting here helps, although your chances of getting a post read is probably a bit like finding a needle in a haystack. I pretty much assume that majority of the time whatever I post isn't going to be read, but sometimes a discussion does catch wind and get attention if there's enough people participating in it.

For bugs / general issues I find the the best way to communicate is through Discord, as you can speak to devs directly there. For example I found Jason's combat stance bug (delay on executing attack in CS) just after the latest patch was released, and despite posting about it several times on this forum in detail, they actually weren't aware of it until I explained the issue directly to them on Discord. So that's definitely a good channel to use, although I wouldn't recommend discussing balance there. It's simply a live support channel.

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25 minutes ago, bewareofbears said:

Those are nice tidbits. 9 posts in the month of November is it though from Courier.

I'm unsure if the publishers are silent because Courier's here now. I'm fine with a little less from Gun and a little more from Illphonic though. Gun are the talkers, Illphonic are the doers. 

I'm hoping he's not hiding in the Discord and is actually engaging the community on all fronts.

He's been talking as of late, and to quite frank, I'd play the caution card too considering how the forums have become volatile as of late.

BoB, I'm not someone who minces words, and you wield a considerable amount of influence, so the things you do tend to make an impact around the forums. Therefore, this needs to be said: you're not making things better by creating threads whose underlining purpose is to slowly but surely undermine the devs.

Calling out the devs. Actively stating that you regret backing the kickstarter for this game. Creating threads cleverly disguised as trying to help devs while posting things that are contrary while getting like-minded people to join you. This sounds very familiar to something that happened a few weeks ago.

We all knew from the get-go that the devs were basically unprepared to deal with such a major group of players, and that is showcased by the number of errors/glitches/broken promises that have happened as of late. But despite this, the devs have done their best to keep this game alive; the amount of detail put into making this game feel like you're in an authentic Friday the 13th movie showcases this. The devs are definitely not a group of people who are lazy, and it's clear they've been listening to our posts considering the information Courier has revealed so far.

They're far from perfect. But regardless of what you say or think, they're our devs. They're the ones who made this game possible. They're the ones who do their best to keep the game going. And for the forseeable future, that will likely remain the same. You saying things like "I wonder to if they're relying on community feedback, where are they getting it from and is there a way we can help," then following it up with "they really have stopped listening. I could understand anyone giving up on this game/publisher/developer," well there's major contrast here regarding the message you're trying to convey here.

Quite frankly, this thread has the markings of a lynch mob under the guise of a helpful suggestion. It's no wonder the devs don't respond here anymore while leaving that job to Courier.

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1 hour ago, Trident77 said:

We all knew from the get-go that the devs were basically unprepared to deal with such a major group of players, and that is showcased by the number of errors/glitches/broken promises that have happened as of late. But despite this, the devs have done their best to keep this game alive; the amount of detail put into making this game feel like you're in an authentic Friday the 13th movie showcases this. The devs are definitely not a group of people who are lazy, and it's clear they've been listening to our posts considering the information Courier has revealed so far.

I definitely wouldn't call them lazy. And it's a great thing to be able to have lines of communication to the devs, and have them respond to you. It's not something people should take for granted, or something that's necessarily the norm for game developers. So in that respect I give them major props.

What I will say however (and this is only for the purpose of complete honesty) is that I don't feel their priorities are in order. I don't feel they align with the most important issues which all revolve around the stability of the game. Things such as basic functionality (performance, connectivity), character control, execution, mechanics and so forth. Basically things that have nothing to do with balance, but do affect it as a result. Some of these issues are being addressed, but others have been a problem since release and show no signs of improvement (or even intention of improving). 

In regards purely to balance, the main issue I have always seen is that the game is balanced for teamwork but doesn't directly encourage it or guide players towards it. What this results in is that players who aren't working with others have far more difficulty against Jason than those who do actively communicate and coordinate. For Jason players it means they can either dominate a lobby, or get dominated themselves. Thus you get a divided playerbase, with one side saying Jason is OP, and the other side saying counselors are OP. Simply because there's such a great divide between teamwork vs no teamwork in regards to success rate.

Add in the factors that include majority of players having an astounding lack of knowledge about the gameplay, and a lack of any kind of matchmaking which creates matches with new players vs experienced ones, and the intended balance of the game regularly gets turned on its head, whether someone is Jason or counselor. I also think that in many aspects the devs are simply not up to date on how the game is played at high level, or even at a decent level. Which results in misinformed decisions on balance changes, and not maintaining the intended design of the game because they haven't been able to keep up with how the gameplay has evolved over time. 

So the main things I would like to see is firstly an overhaul of how matches are played as counselors, with a strong push towards teamwork to bring average matches more in line with high level ones. Secondly, less reliance on overall feedback to the game and more reliance on feedback from experienced, skilled and knowledgeable players who can provide more accurate and up-to-date perspective on the gameplay, which would result in better maintenance of balance.

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Here's some stats on Xbox I have 335 hours in game been killed by Jason 322 times so roughly once an hour I am killed by Jason. 150 games as Jason, killed 893 counselors. That's an average of 6 counselors killed every time as Jason. It is impossible to count the game where there was less than 7 players so given the average I will say I am rather decent at Jason. I generally kill everyone most times. Whether it was pre-patch or post patch. 

Now I have a friend who despises playing Jason, he always has feels it's too stressful. Now I will hear him complain the entire game when he is Jason, I'll admit it makes me laugh and I'll go out of my way to mess with him because what are friends for. He likes to slash because he feels there are too many pocket knives. I tell him grab them anyways better to have them burn them up then let them hold them the entire game. He fails to listen to me and continues to use slash. His results are alright. He gets mad when I am selected as Jason because I am pretty restless when I play as Jason. Sometimes people escape on me, it happens but I find it pretty rare. I most recently had a game where my friends fixed the car and we're trying to drive out and there were also a group of randoms simetanously trying to fix the phone box. I was bouncing back and forth. I ended up letting them call the cops as I was tied up with keeping the car in camp and the cops would still have 5 mins to arrive. There was 5 left around this time. To make the story a bit shorter.  Everyone was still killed before the cops showed up. 

Why did I tell this story you may be asking? Is it to pay myself on the back? Nope, not at all the point of this is that depending on the strategy and how you prioritize objectives will influence the outcome of the game at times. Jason's melee could use some work, I will not argue that. It's largely inconsistent however Jason is still OP if you are using him correctly the tools are there it's how to make use of them that matter. 

I think a lot of Jason players just want to show up and steam roll everyone. That can't be the case, it would make for a very boring game counselor side. It should reward good use of hiding, objective completion and skill level. But sometimes skill does not matter I will die some games as quick as a couple minutes into the game. Wrong place, wrong time. Jason is OP if I have bad luck that game I stand no chance. However if I have a little bit of time I can do some damage. 

There seems to be a large debate about making things easier for Jason and harder for counselors. Then people complain about trolling Jason. That's ultimately what is going to happen when you are put in a unwinnable situation. 

One more story before I wrap up. One game there was a 4 seater and a boat. Two escaped on the boat and one decided to take the 4 seater by themselves. Not sure where the fuse was and it was trapped anyways all around. I said to my friend who was still lingering around since it was hopeless Lets fight Jason. We did just that. Looped in an out of cabins, when Jason went for one of us the other would hit him from the side and switch it up. We ended up getting separated and he ultimately got killed I continued fighting Jason until the clock ran out. He has rage quit after the clock ran out. Now I could have been looking for the fuse but why would I bother since the box was heavily trapped? I was in an situation I would not win, I had two options. Admit defeat and just run to him and let him kill me or just mess around until I died. I chose mess around, it's a game for god sakes, why not. 

Ultimately there will be players who have that mentality going in no matter what, it's the human element of online gaming. But the more hopeless you make a situation the sillier people are going to get. There has to be some sort of balance. While it will not stop people from doing it just to do it but if people have a chance they will work on escaping. Make that a feat of impossibility you are going to have people doing dumb stuff to at least enjoy themselves. I get it can be frustrating if you are getting trolled as Jason but you have the best chance of victory over everyone. Quite often you will hear reference to the movies which is fair at this game strives to be as movie accurate as it can. However this is a game first and foremost, it has to be some degree of fun and it will never play out like a movie. It can't, it wouldn't encourage game play counselor side. 

In closing and I am sorry for the long post but I wanted to compile some thoughts over time. Jason is a killing machine you need to use him wisely, you will not kill everyone every time and dumb stuff will happen. But remember this is a game, you are supposed to be having fun. Try not to take balance changes too seriously. They will shift over time as any online game does. Those that took the time to read the wall of text thanks for hanging in there with me. Just some personal thoughts. 

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6 hours ago, Theiceman105 said:

They need to fix the fucking sweater glitch my kill on a 101 Savini Jason was denied due to it. (Still counting it)

And before this we were killing a Part 3, who then left so we wouldn't get XP. (Hoping I can get this guy permanently banned for trolling)

 

The sweater glitch sucks because so much has to fall into place and then a glitch completely fucks you. Had a match with no intentions of killing Jason,but everything just worked out so we went for it.... 

Sweater was glitched. 

Now,randos are yelling at a friend and blaming him because of something completely out of his control.

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@Trident77 I appreciate your honesty. I'm going to try to keep this short as I don't have any interest in getting into a flame war.

I'm aware of how you feel about me and my presence on the forum, you made as much known in my absence. I'm surprised that you would assume my opinions or thoughts would change because I was given a "vacation". I stand by what I write. I'm also disappointed in how you're painting my intentions.

I would encourage you to engage me on the content of my posts as opposed to how you feel personally about me. If you feel there is something I haven't addressed properly or there's another side to it- please share it and we can debate it. If you can show me I'm wrong about something, I will admit it. If you can't see past your focus on me, feel free to private message me and maybe we can attempt to resolve it there instead of us derailing a thread.

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